Darth Windu Posted October 19, 2002 Author Share Posted October 19, 2002 Kryllith - that's pretty much what i was thinking in respect to the Assault transport/Amred transport thing. Sithmaster, Simwiz - the Gunship should be a Republic UU because it is unique to the Republic. It is the most basic, and best, reason as to why it should be a UU. In none of the movies have we seen anything like the gunship being used by any of the other civ's. It is therefore unique and should be treated as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad It's a nice idea to have an armed transport and an assault transport but it seems that one of them will be useless. I mean, why should you use an assault transport when you have an armed transport? Of course with the assault one you could do raids but it is a little too much micromanagement in the heat of the battle. Would also depend on how fast/early the assaults could be produced. If we go by the current tech tree, we could have someone start building assault transports immediate and use them for rushing slower people (who haven't reached tech III yet). The transport would have decent ground fire so it could dish out damage to units/buildings (admittedly, rather poor against the buildings) and drop units that could have been massed in the first 2 techs. Dropping troopers/padawan (or knights) would serve to destroy other unit/buildings, especially aa troopers. The assault transport would have relatively free reign... at least until the opponent has the ability to build fighters. Assuming it's later in the game, the assaults would probably serve as support units. Of course, if the armed transports are much bigger, they'd be designed for carrying mechs/heavy weapons, so the assaults would carry the smaller units. Since the assaults are smaller, they'd probably be faster and/or cheaper to produce, and since they fly faster they could move units (granted, smaller units) quicker which could be handy when you absolutely need to get support someplace fast. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 19, 2002 Author Share Posted October 19, 2002 Well assuming that there were armed transports and the gunship (assault transport) in the game, it would likely be that the Gunship would act as the cavalry (ie fast, infantry-based) while the armed transport would be more like the armoured force (ie slow, heavily armoured etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Yeah, it'd work something like that. Assault transports are the raiders, scouts, backups for the main force etc, while armed transports are the heavy attack. Kryllith- is SW:GB 2 even going to have tech levels? Even assuming it does (instead of having a tech tree ), it's pretty clear that the Assault Transport would be produced much earlier than the Attack Transport (one or two tech levels, or about 3 or 4 tiers on the tech tree). Actually setting it up that way will make the Assault Transports heavily used for the mid-game, and Attack Transports coming into being when the player's basically at the top tier and prepping for a final assault, or some such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Maybe we could do something like making the assault transport only able to carry troopers(or something the same size) and the armed transport only able to carry mechs and hvy weapons and not be able to carry troopers(for some reason) We could have great uses for both of them in late games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Yeah but the whole armed transport/assualt transport is about as pointless as the gunship (although it negates windu's attempt to make the republic the strongest civ). If you want to do raiding, scouting, and land support, use a frickin fighter. Thats kinda its purpose. Just like with the gunship, the idea is like tryoing to fit a square peg in a circular hole. We dont need a trnsport that protects itself. If we had one, when would you use the regular transports-when landing troops in the middle of nowhere? And why in Gods name do you need two attacking transports? One is without a place to fit as it is, and now your trying to sqeeze two in the game? If you limit the type of units going in each, anyone who inst intrested solely in looking at artwork will build a regular transport that can carry all unitsand in larger quanities. Going into defended area? Only idiots only send transports if their trying to make a beach head. You've got fighters, bombers, air cruisers, and most of the civs who would use a strong air force have unique units that fly too. Or you could, God forbid, use a land army to attack and there is no limit (except pop) on how big of a land army you can have. I wish all of the "let's create new units" people would create units that fix currnet problems and gameplay inbalances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 But we are talking about swgb 2 now. Of course it would be pointless in the actual game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Originally posted by CorranSec Yeah, it'd work something like that. Assault transports are the raiders, scouts, backups for the main force etc, while armed transports are the heavy attack. Kryllith- is SW:GB 2 even going to have tech levels? Even assuming it does (instead of having a tech tree ), it's pretty clear that the Assault Transport would be produced much earlier than the Attack Transport (one or two tech levels, or about 3 or 4 tiers on the tech tree). Actually setting it up that way will make the Assault Transports heavily used for the mid-game, and Attack Transports coming into being when the player's basically at the top tier and prepping for a final assault, or some such. Might not have tech levels, but unless all units are immediately available, cost being the only limitation, then there's likely to be some technological limiting factor so it could work either way. But yeah, that's pretty much how I'd see using the transports. Stick the smaller faster ones for initial runs. Heck they could be used to drop workers into forward positions and protect the workers long enough to get additional buildings made. The bigger transports (whether they're armed or not) would be for massive ground assaults, using primarily mechs and/or heavies, against well-defended bases. The assaults transports would still have a supportive role, transporting smaller units and attacking ground units. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 It doesnt matter what game you're talking about. As long as a nontransport attacking unit and a purely transport unit exist, the attacking transports will be without a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Scroll up and read my post about how an armed transport can only carry mechs and hvy weapons while an assault transport can only carry trooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad Scroll up and read my post about how an armed transport can only carry mechs and hvy weapons while an assault transport can only carry trooper. IMO such unit-specific transports would add nothing to gameplay, but simply increase micromanagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 I know but it seems to shut up windu so......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 And they still would have no point if regular transports can carry both mechs and troops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedi3112 Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Remove the regular transports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Originally posted by jedi3112 Remove the regular transports No offense but that would encourage n00b "strategy" as much as Windu's AAM/MD merger, in which he laments about losing all his AAM's because he left them undefended, and asks that the game be made idiotproof. Sith, I think the universe is winning... Now this asks that transports get attack so they don't get slaughtered when undefended. At least that is the only reason I can think of for this idea. So the simpler solution is to defend your transports with fighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Actually, it's only a ''last hope'' attack(a little like the arbiter in starcraft, it had a lousy defensive attack).They would get slaughtered by fighters anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 I know I'm nit-picking, but if trannies would get slaughtered anyway then what is the point of the "last hope" attack? Besides if the attack was that bad it would not overpower the Republic, and Windu would not cease his incessant complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Sith, simwiz, everyone anti-transports with guns: There are new holes. There are new classes. You don't know what size the hole is; what colour it is; whether there's a crazed drunken monkey inside it; etc. In this case, we're making the hole around the transports. The whole point is that there are no "normal" transports. Didn't you people read my earlier post about the stats and purposes of the two transports? Other than the speed/armour/etc, I think the main point we're arguing about here is the actual weaponry. So here goes: We're arming the transports to make the game more canon and more fun, and to prevent such neccesary micromanagement as having a group of fighters designed solely to escort transports around, because sadly, they're pathetic nerfs. The Assault Transport might be used to pick on an enemy forward/strike/scouting base, as well as take out wandering and unprotected enemy ground units. It would still need some fighter support, but its speed could get it out of many tight spots. The Armed Transport is basically the normal transport with guns. With them, there's now a reason to leave transports at the main battle site; they can hand out a healthy bit of damage and have enough armour to withstand occasional passes by enemy fighters and the like. Their speed is their main problem, and as such, they are very weak against all fighters, but especially those speedy enough to dodge their lasers and/or escorts. Plainly, both transports are going to be neccesary, and will add another layer of detail to any battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedi3112 Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Isn't the name of this thread 'a gunship we can all live with'? I think most of the people can live with it just the way CorranSec discribed. The rest are mainlt people who are just as extreme as Windu or Sith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Hey, wow, I think I'm being considered the Voice of Reason. That's new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 It's also a way to effect tech advances (or whatever means they are going though). Tech III heavy transports might not get weaponry, but gain them at Tech IV. Or there might be a transport upgrade which gives them weapons (and possible other bonuses like extra hps). Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 If transports still need to be defended, why give them guns? And if transports are meant for battle, than they will be micro intensive and have increased chanes of losing their cargo. The Assault Transport might be used to pick on an enemy forward/strike/scouting base, as well as take out wandering and unprotected enemy ground units. It would still need some fighter support, but its speed could get it out of many tight spots. If it can do all that, what is someone going to use a fighter for? And whats the point of a fighter wannabe if it still needs to be defended by fighters? And i wont even get into the fact that, according to you, the transports wont be used for transporting! The Armed Transport is basically the normal transport with guns. With them, there's now a reason to leave transports at the main battle site; they can hand out a healthy bit of damage and have enough armour to withstand occasional passes by enemy fighters and the like. Their speed is their main problem, and as such, they are very weak against all fighters, but especially those speedy enough to dodge their lasers and/or escorts. What about the civs with poor air forces? Not only are they easy victims to your transports, their transports are still sitting ducks to better air forces. Also, if you still need an escort, then why are you arming them? If the transports are supposed to have an attack for self defense pruposes, why do they attack ground units that cant fire back, but still suck vs air units that pick them off like flies? Are they not ment for transporting, but instead for attacking which could be better done by stronger and cheaper air units or even *gasp* a land army. And who lets their transports idle over a battle field? You should send them back to your home base for reinforcements or to prepare for the second wave, or send them to a secure spot so their still alive when theyre need for retreating. And remember, the main purpose of a transport on non space maps, is to move land units via air to a place that air units are unable to do the desired effect. In other words, let the cargo do the fighting and the transports to the moving. Sith, I think the universe is winning... "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."-Rich Cook Just in case you guys missed that;) who are just as extreme as Windu or Sith Now im extreme? Greg Street once said tht anyting that gets in the way of gameplay should be taken outside and shot" and this thread makes for an apt shooting range:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 24, 2002 Author Share Posted October 24, 2002 I agree with the armed transport concept, but i still think that the gunship should be a UU, or if its not, make it the strongest assault transport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 It's a shooting range indeed; but you're the one standing in it. OK. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The Assault Transport is used to do raids. This is because it carries a bunch of troopers which it drops off, and they raid, and it maybe supports them. That is, if you don't send it back to base to get more troopers. Its primary function is still transporting, but it has other uses as well. Eg, a Jedi's primary function is, uh, killing things, but it can convert as well. Do you see the distinction? I elaborated on the neccessity of fighters in the Ideas for SW:GB 2 thread (the REAL thread, not one of those imitator offshoots), but seeing as you avoid that thread like the plague, I'll repeat it here for your convenience. Or as much as I can remember, at lesat. The Space Superiority fighters are the backbone of any air force. They are the all-round-multi-purpose-jolly-good-goodness fighters. Without them, you are going to die. Painfully. And the transports are going to die painfully without fighter support. Or even some other kind of support, eg. from frigates, but I won't go into that lest you start getting mad at me for including them. An Assault Transport will die against most fighters. If we use the current tech tree (which won't be present, but anyways), an Imperial Assault Transport could kill a Wookie Fighter and possibly a Fast Fighter (if the Fast Fighter isn't shielded) but will be taken down by an Advanced fighter quite easily. Of course, if the Assault Transport is carrying AA troopers, it's quite a different kind of battle.... The Assault Transport will get just as hammered by ground-to-air fire as the current Fighters do, but they'll have an extra edge because they can drop troopers to take out the AA. Sure, the Assault Transport can kill undefended targets eg. Laser Troopers etc. Who can't? It'll function much like a downpowered fighter in this regard. Armed Transport. Now IT has severe weaknesses to AA and fast fighters (not Fast Fighters, but fast fighters. There's a difference). It will definitely need to be escorted, because a single flight of fighters buzzing by will manage to inflict quite a bit of damage on it. Those with bad airforces will be balanced out by the fact that they still HAVE airforces, and the Attack Transport is also weak against numbers. The bad-airforcey people will also have such things as the AA Refit, which means that a pair of AA mobiles or so will be able to kill any Attack Transport, even with escorts. (Of course, there might not even be an AA mobile in GB 2) They, too have the ability to prey on undefended ground targets. Once again, who can't? Those who don't wish to send transports back to base can leave them at the battle to kill things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by Sithmaster_821 If transports still need to be defended, why give them guns? And if transports are meant for battle, than they will be micro intensive and have increased chanes of losing their cargo. Workers need to be protected, but they have some capability (admittedly minor) of defending themselves if necessary... If it can do all that, what is someone going to use a fighter for? And whats the point of a fighter wannabe if it still needs to be defended by fighters? And i wont even get into the fact that, according to you, the transports wont be used for transporting! The fighters would do what they always do, perform precision strikes on ground/air forces and provide protection for other forces. Heck, I use fighters for protecting my mechs even though they are readily capable of protecting themselves. And I would still be using the transports for transporting. If I don't have them actively sending troops to a battle field, I keep them close by to pull out wounded units. What about the civs with poor air forces? Not only are they easy victims to your transports, their transports are still sitting ducks to better air forces. Also, if you still need an escort, then why are you arming them? If the transports are supposed to have an attack for self defense pruposes, why do they attack ground units that cant fire back, but still suck vs air units that pick them off like flies? Are they not ment for transporting, but instead for attacking which could be better done by stronger and cheaper air units or even *gasp* a land army. And who lets their transports idle over a battle field? You should send them back to your home base for reinforcements or to prepare for the second wave, or send them to a secure spot so their still alive when theyre need for retreating. And remember, the main purpose of a transport on non space maps, is to move land units via air to a place that air units are unable to do the desired effect. In other words, let the cargo do the fighting and the transports to the moving. Dems the breaks for having sucky air... luckily they typically have better AA ground units to eliminate the fighter support. As for arming transports, see my previous paragraph. The assault transport would be designed for offensive ground combat, true, but the armed would probably be fairly weak vs. everything so it really wouldn't make much of a defence if it attacked ground forces. The guns would be intended for defense, not for wading a heavy transport into combat. You can use workers to attack mechs if you really wanted to, but most people wouldn't... Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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