AKPiggott Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 As some of you probably know, I edited the original Jedi Knight for three years and released several SP levels. I want to continue the same course for JO, and it pleases me to see many others with similar ambition. Anyway, I thought it might be an idea to share some of my experience with you from what I've learnt editing SP, what works and what doesn't work. Also, if anyone else has any SP editing tips, please post them on this thread because I think it's good for people here to learn from each other. It would also be cool if a moderator could make this a sticky topic. Anyways first off, story tips. I've seen lots of people in the past who want to edit a SP level, but can't think of a good story. I've found that the narration of the story is much more important than the actual story content itself. For instance, some people take the time to write a detailed prologue (usually found in the readme) and then throw the player in the shoes of the main character to conclude what had been written in prologue. There's usually little player immersion in these types of levels. I think the best levels are the ones with very little pre-story that have a plot fold out right in front of the player's eyes. Don't reveal all story aspects at once. Leave some twists and surprises for later. In the case of working with Star Wars, it's beneficial to find an expert on all the EU, so you can cross your story with the outline of the books and comics to make sure there's no conflicts (otherwise you get some die-hard EUers bitching about that at a later date). I've found that people love it when you introduce familiar Star Wars characters with convincing voice-overs. Example, a level I made for MotS two years ago, BoaM3. One of the reasons it was instantly popular because it had Darth Vader and the Emperor in it, and I was very fortunate to find a fantastic voice actor to portray the two. Problem with using these characters is you have to pay closer attention to EU conflicts. You also have to stay true to the character in the case of dialogue and behaviour. Good example, Dark Luke's JK SP level "Dark Emperor 2" had Luke Skywalker spouting some terrible dialogue, the level left an awful after-taste with many players. The author displayed great skill with the editor, but it was the story and dialogue (two crucial, often underestimated elements) that really let it down. Cutscenes are important to a good story. I recommend everyone who wants to tell a good story to learn cutscenes inside-out. You should also keep them dynamic, have voice-actors, frequent camera changes and action. My earlier JK levels had cutscenes where the characters were standing around with subtitles representing their speech. Many reviewers and players complained about this, saying it's just a complete bore. So it's important to remember that cutscenes are there to entertain the player as well as convey the story. If you have to have a boss in your level, make it a puzzle boss as opposed to a "shoot the crap out of it until it dies" boss. You will get a lot of praise and it will help make a memorable conclusion to your level. The only downer on this is that you will get loads of people getting stuck and e-mailing you for help. But you can just ignore them. Layout is quite important too. Try to stray away from linear layouts. I like it in levels where the player has to go back and forth within an enviornment, it makes the game world a bit more convincing. Beta testing is especially important. I find it best to have your level tested by others from an early stage, so that you can make adjustments and fix things as you go along. Also, try to get a varied mix of beta testers. Try to get some fellow SP editors who know the engine well and can provide feedback on the more technical issues as well as some who play, but don't edit. The latter usually have less suggestions, but you will get a better idea of what the general gaming public will think of your level. [edit: Also, try to make sure you have testers with varying system specs, and ask for feedback on how well it performs on their system. That way you can make sure that lower ended systems can cope with your level.] One final and important note for this post, gameplay is much more important than visuals. It is very easy to impress somebody with something that looks nice, but you will get a much more lasting impact with something that plays just as well. I have played some levels in the past with amazing eye candy that are just lacking the depth and soul of a really decent SP adventure. Anyone with questions/comments/more tips, please post them here and good luck to anyone who is working on a SP level. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Hello.. Very nice post Uhm Did u make sp maps for Dark Forces 2???????? ' If u did, great work !!! One of the greatest game I played(at that time)... Im currently completing a MP Map (only sound problems left) And have started a little on a SP map... However my "story" isnt that good as I wiched.... The story (not detailed): You start in the outside of the hown in a backally. Your there to free a group of rebels that has been captured by Some Evil Jedi(dont know who yet) and his troops. First you have to find and get in to they hideout. And from there it goes on... Uhm of course somethings are going to change while playing, but thats the basic, what does an expert like u say?? - Robe 1, over and out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 20, 2002 Author Share Posted July 20, 2002 Originally posted by darth_micke Did u make sp maps for Dark Forces 2???????? ' If u did, great work !!! One of the greatest game I played(at that time)... Yeah I made levels for the game which I released independently on the net. But I didn't actually make levels for the retail game unfortunately. Originally posted by darth_micke However my "story" isnt that good as I wiched.... The story (not detailed): You start in the outside of the hown in a backally. Your there to free a group of rebels that has been captured by Some Evil Jedi(dont know who yet) and his troops. First you have to find and get in to they hideout. And from there it goes on... Uhm of course somethings are going to change while playing, but thats the basic, what does an expert like u say?? Well, one thing I would do is a big build-up between your character and and the Dark Jedi, which will pay off at the end where I assume you will get to fight him. So basically, make up some sort of history between the two (something a bit more original than the Dark Jedi killing the good Jedi's father) and some how convey that plot point into cutscenes. You could have a meeting between the two near the beginning, which ends rather awkwardly. Just go with something like that and I'm sure as your ideas and level develop, you'll think of plenty more cool ideas that you can implement. Another tip for people: Go check out some of the SP levels made for JK/MotS at http://www.massassi.net, there are some great ideas used in some of those levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Ahh okey...while I played that I hadnt got access to internet Well, I was thinking of something like that... But I need to learn scripting (Im trying to right now)... But I wish to finish up my mp map before I really start scripting..... However I thought like if I started by seeing a fight between Luke Skywalker and The Evil Jedi....where Skywalker failed an died..and in a cutscene his last wish would be that I didnt follow the jedi, coz its not very jedi-like to seek revenge.... however Kyle is stupid and follow the Evil Jedi .... What u think of that?? Not to bad I hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 20, 2002 Author Share Posted July 20, 2002 Hmm.. if you were to use that idea, I would change the characters.. don't make it Kyle and Luke because it will conflict with the EU, if you're going to kill anyone off, you're best off making up your own characters. Perhaps an interesting way to do it is to not let the player know right away that this bad Jedi killed a god Jedi's friend. So what you could do is have the main character displaying hatred for the bad guy without the player knowing why, then maybe have a flashback scene or something later on showing the bad Jedi killing the good Jedi's friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Well, I see your point.. But 2 things: 1. I cant make my own skins, to dumb I guess 2. To do what u ask me I would be to create a much more advandced cutscene that I thought of... However if I get good enough of scripting I will try.... Mean time u could teach me skinng since I dont get the jediknightii.com tut Thx.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 20, 2002 Author Share Posted July 20, 2002 You might be able to convince a skinner to make some skins for you. If I were you, I would stay away from scripting for now and concentrate on building the arch first. It's the best way for beginner to learn I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Well, no offence......but I like to make it all myself....And only in special cases I would ask someone doin somethin for me... And so I really want to learn skinning to.........Please?? Meeeeep, meeeeep *making sad droid sound* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonepadawan Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Good, soon we may have maps more than- Kyle katarn has landed in a rather horrible looking imperial base (prehaps with luke- or a squad of jedi or whatnot) fight your way through hordes of stormtroopers with no item placement what soever , kill a huge amount of reborn/reskinned reborn- kill desann/tavion/maul clone/vader clone escape on ship (escaping being getting into the same room as it) I wouldn't mind so much if the levels simply werent so UGLY. Now AKpiggot is back in buisness we will hopefully see some more awsome SP levels- *Tips hat to the editing legend* Darth_Micke just find BOAM SE on massassi- it is sooo movielike its scary. Not many levels are so fun and creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 lonepadawan: I share your thoughts!! Hate those games... its just so boring.... but..have u checked my story?? If u have gimmie some feedback before I start doin anything.....(read the follow-ups to)......thx Meep Meep *making droid sound* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 bump to the top *need this thread alive* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Darn... Well.....just wanted to let my fellow sp lovers know that the map I was working on, is not officaly dead..... Im going to find inspiration elsewhere...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joben Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Emon should like this thread, surprised he hasnt replyed to it. Good advice AkPiggot, I shall keep it in mind. Though good grief I doudt I will be able to pack all of that into my first few attempts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Though good grief I doudt I will be able to pack all of that into my first few attempts hehehe yeah there should be another tip for mappers: you dont need to release your first map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakewl Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 rofl excellent tip idontlikegeorge, i will support this another tip of the same style: dont make a 20.000 units large room that has one big light, 100 times seamed textures and masses of enemies at once and then call it a map or players will remind your name in a bad manner but to be serious its helpful to read some literature about the structure of dramatic scenes and other scene mediums like in movies, so you know when and how to use different storyelements in the game and dont burn the whole excitement in the beginning. Some analyzing of the sp levels raven has created can pushing you forward into more professionel thinking areas tension curves are also important for an interactive story where players shall being sucked into an environment that should be lived/played in a way the creator originally intended it. Like Piggot has said, dont reveal all your secrets in the beginning. Catch the players attention with a low average beginning event, then add smaller "fill events" until a medium sized event is presented to the player, then again let the tension curve fall a bit and confront the player with one or two big events near the end of your level. But dont forget, less can be more so draw a timeline for your level and put all important events onto the timeline with specified information about the place of the event, the lighting, environment sound/music, the trigger(s), the participating npcs, the results and the feelings the player should have during this event this way you will get a better plan how to stuff up your level with story content and how to optimize your level geometry for scripting and story content and about unlinear content, i like this, too efficient design is, when you cross an area that has some good visible subareas that are not accessible because of closed doors, debris, big enemies, etc but that you can access later when you have more power or activated triggers which opened your further way. I always liked the feeling (im sure, im not the only one), when i passed an area, went hours and hours into new buildings and then reached an already passed area through a new way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubris Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Very insightful comments, I agree with everything minus one element. Personally I'm not a fan of going back through rooms five times, or fighting your way through countless bad guys just so you can open a door that you saw at the beginning of a level, to be honest, I think it's gimmicky and lazy, and crushes a hollow sense of advancement but that's just me, heh. I like where you can see into previous parts of the level, or maybe even cross over once or twice, but in the JK2 singleplayer for example, constantly going back through was really predominant, and pretty annoying. Personally I don't think Raven in any of their games has made exemplar single player, in either story or design. Take a look at Deus Ex, or Half-Life, or the original Jedi Knight. People still talk about those games, and they'll still be talking about them in ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takeoffyouhoser Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Like I'm gonna have the time to do all this. Hire voice actors....BULLSPIT! What am I going to do, call up Rob Paulson and Billy West..errr maybe good ol' Jonathan Harris of Lost in Space fame...he's pretty sought after in this field... no!!!!!! I'm not fortunate to sit in front of my computer 12 hours a day to do this stuff SOOOOoo in depth for I have a job!!! So in my level, theres not gonna be voice actors, and there's not going to dynamic cutscenes either... I have a few ideas for cutsenes..and if i ever find a tutorial on it I may do it. You will get better archetecture, interesting locale, and hopefully a working mission objective area. Maybe a cutscene or 4 if I can figure it out....but as for now, you make the really great levels, and I'll make the Junior Varsity ones...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 20, 2002 Author Share Posted July 20, 2002 Excellent advice, Drakewl. Originally posted by darth_micke Well, no offence......but I like to make it all myself....And only in special cases I would ask someone doin somethin for me... I can't really teach you, because I'm not a skinner, I'm a level editor. Best thing I can say is look for skinning tutorials for any Q3 based game. There's some good stuff out there, if you can find it. Originally posted by idontlikegeorge hehehe yeah there should be another tip for mappers: you dont need to release your first map YES. That is a very important tip indeed, can't believe I didn't think of that. Originally posted by Takeoffyouhoser Like I'm gonna have the time to do all this. Hire voice actors....BULLSPIT! What am I going to do, call up Rob Paulson and Billy West..errr maybe good ol' Jonathan Harris of Lost in Space fame...he's pretty sought after in this field... If I can do it anyone can. I don't mean professional voice actors that you pay. Just members of the community who can act to a microphone. I had no trouble finding them in the original JK community, and there were far less people there than there are in this community. Originally posted by Takeoffyouhoser I'm not fortunate to sit in front of my computer 12 hours a day to do this stuff SOOOOoo in depth for I have a job!!! So in my level, theres not gonna be voice actors, and there's not going to dynamic cutscenes either... I have a few ideas for cutsenes..and if i ever find a tutorial on it I may do it. You will get better archetecture, interesting locale, and hopefully a working mission objective area. Maybe a cutscene or 4 if I can figure it out....but as for now, you make the really great levels, and I'll make the Junior Varsity ones...lol I never said you had to sit all day in front of your computer. I have a life too, and I'm sure every other SP editor has as well. I will say this though, a good SP level of considerable length can take several months to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontlikegeorge Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 heheh hoser actually, getting voice actors shouldnt be too hard, just post on some forums, send some lines to people interested, they send you a sound, if you like it, send them more lines, get more sounds, put their name in the credits! and its not like we dont have jobs or lives either another tip of the same style: dont make a 20.000 units large room that has one big light, 100 times seamed textures and masses of enemies at once and then call it a map or players will remind your name in a bad manner cough*emperorsvilla*cough Very insightful comments, I agree with everything minus one element. Personally I'm not a fan of going back through rooms five times, or fighting your way through countless bad guys just so you can open a door that you saw at the beginning of a level Take a look at Deus Ex, or Half-Life well, for one thing, a majority of HL levels revolved around going some god-forsaken path just to end up on the other side of a locked door/obstacle; but yeah they did not usually force the player to go straight thru areas theyve been and deus ex? hell repetiveness is the name of the game; of course being an RPG, its need to create a free world requires this; granted, if the player just goes to the objectives, and doesnt explore, that isnt the case basically, that tip should be more specific: dont require the player to go repeatedly thru areas already visited; the only exceptions would be because of storyline I had no trouble finding them in the original JK community, and there were far less people there than there are in this community. yeah but more ppl doesnt mean a better community... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchx Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 i dont dig the fully cinematic style plot revealing cutscenes u see in jk2 and jk1 and mots with camera changes and stuff i prefer the MOHAA style where the players control is locked and a bunch of scripted events happen in front of their fov, like with the bespin cop in jk2 i think its better for maintaining the feeling of being in the level, so my levels arent gonna have the more popular flashy camera changing epic type ones also i think complex convoluted storylines arent as important as immersive gameplay though there has to be a reason behind the players predicament. i think the only important tip i would give sp level guys is not to use boring, kyle "the beard" katarn as the player, he quite simply sux ...oh and also use area portals, i think im yet to see an sp level that does and consequently one that is playable on my crap system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKPiggott Posted July 20, 2002 Author Share Posted July 20, 2002 Hmm.. the problem with doing it from the player's POV is that it is very easy to make it boring, particuarly if the player is forced to stand still and watch the action. I think that scripted sequences from the player's POV should be kept much shorter than cutscenes, therefore you must not use a very deep layered story that will take a lot of verbal explanation from the player's POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patchx Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 yeah true my story line is going to be revealed through npcs talking to the player as the players ship "descends" into the level, scripted events around the player and the objectives mostly but its not exactly a twisting and turning soap opera so it should be okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_micke Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Uhmmm..... I've read richdiesals tut..but.. Im stupid.... How do u create area portals? and another thing: anyone who wanna teach me skinning, your welcome add me on msn: micke_88_@hotmail.com Also I need some help on scripting.. And any good/decent mapper may add me..... :D I know there is probably noone wo wanna help a n00bie droid but well well......a try is better that nothin...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakewl Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 good points, emon speaking about story implementation, puzzles and cutscenes, designers should give all of this a "ground" or base first. The base is not just the level architecture, it consists more of environment and ambient factors like scene dynamics, lighting which fits into the place, ambient sounds, music and detail work. You can summarize it as atmosphere. Create lively and and plausible places. You can have the best level with an awesome architecture and an exciting story, but if the level is sterile in relation with lighting and scene dynamics the player probably wont experience the story, just "eating" it. Putting crates and spaceships here and there into the level wont make it so much more lively, its just the beginning of the work. just an example: If the level consists of a once high frequented base that was damaged and rebuild through the years make it looking so, not only building a base. Create broken walls and cracks on the ground. Put broken stones on the ground that once were a part of the walls. Make doors that dont open properly or that open and close automatic from time to time without being triggered by the player. Having some minor experience in Photoshop or similar apps you can make a bunch of textures dirty/bloody/damaged, so you get the image of a much used based that can tell you decades of history . In the process of rebuilding the base the troops may have shut down old generators or pipes and have built new ones through different corridors. At some spots there could be steam leaks with bright clouds and a whizzing sound coming out of the leak. Certain lights could be flickering (in relation with a fitting sound) to look like being damaged, but its clever here to add some non flickering lights into the same room, so you dont provoke an epileptic reaction on side of the player. Put items in a chaotic manner on the floors, on tables or consoles, like there has been an evacuation where troops have thrown away what they had in their fingers or below their asses at this time. If areas have no power, make them looking so, dont build bright lights and flickering computer interfaces into them and tell the player you have to switch on the power for this room. There are so much more elements and i could write some more pages, but my little introduction into detail work should give you a good image of what can be done, but you set the priorities yourself. Giving a certain story a lively place of such caliber will make it more enjoyable and this way a remarkable experience. dont let them play your level, let them feel it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakewl Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 weird, seems there has been a database error i wrote a new reply after reading darth-nasty's last posting and the database put it into the middle of the thread. a new attempt of being on the right position .... ------------------------------------ good points, emon speaking about story implementation, puzzles and cutscenes, designers should give all of this a "ground" or base first. The base is not just the level architecture, it consists more of environment and ambient factors like scene dynamics, lighting which fits into the place, ambient sounds, music and detail work. You can summarize it as atmosphere. Create lively and and plausible places. You can have the best level with an awesome architecture and an exciting story, but if the level is sterile in relation with lighting and scene dynamics the player probably wont experience the story, just "eating" it. Putting crates and spaceships here and there into the level wont make it so much more lively, its just the beginning of the work. just an example: If the level consists of a once high frequented base that was damaged and rebuild through the years make it looking so, not only building a base. Create broken walls and cracks on the ground. Put broken stones on the ground that once were a part of the walls. Make doors that dont open properly or that open and close automatic from time to time without being triggered by the player. Having some minor experience in Photoshop or similar apps you can make a bunch of textures dirty/bloody/damaged, so you get the image of a much used based that can tell you decades of history . In the process of rebuilding the base the troops may have shut down old generators or pipes and have built new ones through different corridors. At some spots there could be steam leaks with bright clouds and a whizzing sound coming out of the leak. Certain lights could be flickering (in relation with a fitting sound) to look like being damaged, but its clever here to add some non flickering lights into the same room, so you dont provoke an epileptic reaction on side of the player. Put items in a chaotic manner on the floors, on tables or consoles, like there has been an evacuation where troops have thrown away what they had in their fingers or below their asses at this time. If areas have no power, make them looking so, dont build bright lights and flickering computer interfaces into them and tell the player you have to switch on the power for this room. There are so much more elements and i could write some more pages, but my little introduction into detail work should give you a good image of what can be done, but you set the priorities yourself. Giving a certain story a lively place of such caliber will make it more enjoyable and this way a remarkable experience. dont let them play your level, let them feel it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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