JUST SAY NO TO NERFING! There is a better way!

[FatalStrike]

It occurred to me while reading the thousands of posts that there are two different approaches to this game.

 

- Learn to counter all things, and become a great player.

 

- Demand Raven removes anything that they feel is cheap or exploited.

 

However there is one thing that neither camp seems to want to do, fix the game fairly and not for personal gain. “Whiners” want what they have trouble avoiding removed. They had trouble with DFA in 1.02 and thus had them removed. They once again found themselves in a bind with backstab and consequently also had that removed.

 

1.02 lovers want the quick die system back. That however leaves the many out in the rain because they hate quick death scenarios because of how stupid they look . They believe they are playing as Jedi and thus should not be so easily killed by an exploited attack.

 

My thought is why not have a middle ground. A patch that allows people to counter moves in different less difficult ways, yet allows “quick killers” to keep their much loved tactics.

 

Lets look one of the biggest problems for the “Quick killers” – Blocking

 

Blocking as it is in 1.04 seems to defend a 300 degree angle around a player, leaving only an exact hit to the spine the only swing that gets through all the time. This drives the “quick killers” crazy because they find it too easy for players to escape from situations where they should have been killed.

 

Solution: Shrink the block range to front only (not as small as 1.02). Block should only occur when the saber is not swinging. You need to face the hit in order to block it. No more blocking in the back stuff that just makes the game seem rather silly. No more standing still defense, you will have to move wuickly to defend yourself.

 

This blocking system would require some activity from the player to defend himself, yet it would still be very effective. The current system allow players to ignore blocking and concentrate purely on offensive footwork,

 

(Note: for those who think the current blocking systems are better, please tell me why)

 

Next point of contention would have to be special moves – DFA and Back spins

 

1.04 is the prohibition period of Jedi Outcast. A time when the game has sought to remove the addicting powerful attacks of old. Some are loving this but many players feel left out in the cold. 1.04 is a patch of long duels and drawn out battles. Some feel this is the way it should be, while others feel that long battles should come from evenly matched players and not from a patch that actually makes it more time consuming just to get the job done.

 

I say bring back all the cheap special moves in all there glory, with a few changes of course. Let the DFA launch whenever it wants, and turn in the air! However if a player steps on it he should only take a passive saber hit (5hp I think). No more step on saber kills. Also I see no reason why one should not be allowed to block this move. As stated above, stop attacking, face the hit, and block it. Raven should enable block to do this. By doing this “cheap hit whiners” would have less room to complain because all that would be required to avoid death is to face the player trying to hit you.

 

As for the backstab, the solution here is much easier. First allow it to be block by the above stated blocking system. Second allow pull to pull you down only when you are low on force, this would mean players would have to use force wisely or they would run low and their target would have no trouble pulling them to the ground. This would make pull backstab much more difficult to pull off. Also allow players to push form the ground as they do in 1.04 and decrease the time spent on the ground, giving players less time to backstab you.

 

Last I would make these moves use a small amount of force power to use. This will prevent people from DFAing all day long, and backstabbers would be more likely to be pulled down after attempting a back stab.

 

Please let me know why you feel that these changes would be better or worse than those that are currently in use. Please do not flame in this thread.

[Master Sith]

Then again, on the flip side of that coin, it can be just as easily said that its the people who cant do quick kills anymore with lame moves and now have to actually learn REAL skill with the lightsaber who are the TRUE whiners.

 

Live with patch. Nuff said.

[crazyplaya73]

Wow, dude I like your ideas. Too bad you don't work for Raven LOL!

 

I really like the idea of pull scoring knock downs if the other player is very low on force power. Unfortunately the cahnges like that will only come about in a mod or an expansion pack.

 

Its almost funny that the lesser players have influenced the nerfing of moves. I don't think that this has happened in any other game. I don't recall them taking away the rocket laucher from Quake because some people could not deal with getting killed so quickly. Its just plain stupid.

 

Well the only option now is to play on a server with increased damage or running a mod with higher damage like what I am doing. Screw Raven and their attemp to "level" the playing field. You win if your good and you lose if you suck. Sorry that's life get used to it and its only a game.

[MrYepp]

i bet master sith that u enjoy those long 10 minute duels too

[BucMan55]

This would be the greatest solution, but for now you just have to play with mods or increased damage...

 

Realistically Master Sith, any lightsaber hit to the right area should be a one hit kill. So it's not that great when you run around hitting a guy with 2-3 red swings to get them to die....It SHOULD take less....

 

I think that the unblockability of these special moves is what made folks mad though.....

 

Someone does a red DFA by 1.02 standards and you try and block it, you're dead. Same goes for 1.03 backstab(which I guess was there in 1.02 but folks liked the DFA combos better)....

 

The ideal saber duel, would be one wrong move and you're dead(or you lose an arm)....just like in the films....

[razorace]

Well put, FatalStrike. The problem I have with your statements is the assumation that people that miss the old style DFA and BS miss them because of the way that they felt. I think that isn't true. I think people miss them as they were high damage moves that could be used to easily hack down opponents. While, your solutions are nice thought out solutions they wouldn't keep people from complaining as they want the high damage and not just the old "feel".

 

Plus, I have to comment about the blocking system. I'm not sure where you guys play but the newer blocking systems don't ever result in a large amount of side or back blocked moves. Could lag be causing some of these effects? (I only play on LANs or against bots) Jedi are suppose to have a combat sense that warns them off incoming attacks. I imagine Raven made the blocking system this way as this IS what the Jedi do.

[blackfire]

Fatalstrike,

 

I never thought I'd say this, but I like and agree with your ideas for the most part.

 

The only other idea I have about it is that I don't completely agree that all blocking from behind should be gotten rid of, instead randomise it. That way you can't count on it, but you could get lucky and block the attack. I only say this because in real sword fighting and in the movies it is possible to block from the back.

An example is the fight between Obi and Maul in E2 after Qui Gon is beaten, Obi brings the saber across his back in a realistic fashion to block an attack. But I definately agree with you that specials should be blockable if your not attacking and possibly allow a counter attack. I also like your ideas about force use.

 

Lets face the fact that Raven did not spend enough time with the saber combat, which is the biggest part of this game; if I wanted to shoot people I'd play Quake3 or one of the FPSs out there that do it much better. The saber combat is the only reason I still play this game other than it being Star Wars, with the former being the more important. Raven should have employed a sword specialist or fight choreographer to design the saber combat and if they did(he or she wasn't very good or they didn't listen).

 

But, another fact we all need to face is that people are impatient and a lot just want to win regardless of how they do it. They don't care how a saber fight looks or if the other person is having fun. They don't care if people are bored that they only use one tactic(although I can't believe they don't get bored themselves). I believe a lot of these people derive their fun by annoying others(such is the state of our world unfortunately), but the fact that the average age of people playing this game seems to be between 10-16 years of age doesn't help either.

No, I'm not flaming kids, but face it you are kids. Although it's not always kids that are the problem either, I've seen many "adults" acting like 10 year olds to and vice versa.

 

Real Jedi's are trained through their childhood for many years, we have been playing for what, 6 months at best.(yes I know it's fiction)

 

Ok, I'm going to stop now...this has turned into a rant and is getting quite long. This is all just my humble opinion.

 

BTW, I find having high damage with only tracesaberfirst on and no ghoul2 seems to work fairly well.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Master Sith

Then again, on the flip side of that coin, it can be just as easily said that its the people who cant do quick kills anymore with lame moves and now have to actually learn REAL skill with the lightsaber who are the TRUE whiners.

 

Live with patch. Nuff said.

 

You missed the point! Did you even read it?

 

Ok I wrote these ideas to appeal to BOTH sides. In other words quick kill can happen but only when someone makes a very large mistake. By allowing all these moves to exist in a blockable form you can take the best of what both sides want.

 

Now as for your REAL skill and TRUE winners, let me ask you this.

 

What about the current system would require more skill then the one I am suggesting? My suggested change requires you to work on defense more then the current one, and would require you to pay more attention to your force power to launch a successful offense then the current one. In other words the player must be aware of much more to win.

[razorace]

So much for letting the force flow thru you.

 

 

Raven should have employed a sword specialist or fight choreographer to design the saber combat and if they did(he or she wasn't very good or they didn't listen).

 

Raven did in fact hire a sword specialist to do the saber motion captures. It was well thoughtout in the first place. They just didn't have the people / time to playtest it much for balance. What do you think would improve the game?

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by razorace

Well put, FatalStrike. The problem I have with your statements is the assumation that people that miss the old style DFA and BS miss them because of the way that they felt. I think that isn't true. I think people miss them as they were high damage moves that could be used to easily hack down opponents. While, your solutions are nice thought out solutions they wouldn't keep people from complaining as they want the high damage and not just the old "feel".

 

Well some do miss the feel and some don't. The thing is this way there is a CHANCE of getting a quick kill. So the quick killers can at least have there happy moves back. The difference is that they have to work a heck of a lot harder to get one. This gives both players a chance to win, quick killers could in theory get you, but other types of saber use would also be effective.

 

 

Originally posted by razorace

Plus, I have to comment about the blocking system. I'm not sure where you guys play but the newer blocking systems don't ever result in a large amount of side or back blocked moves. Could lag be causing some of these effects? (I only play on LANs or against bots) Jedi are suppose to have a combat sense that warns them off incoming attacks. I imagine Raven made the blocking system this way as this IS what the Jedi do.

 

It happens a lot where I have played. Also you may be on a server that has the blocking tuned to a lower setting.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by blackfire

Fatalstrike,

 

I never thought I'd say this, but I like and agree with your ideas for the most part.

 

The only other idea I have about it is that I don't completely agree that all blocking from behind should be gotten rid of, instead randomise it. That way you can't count on it, but you could get lucky and block the attack. I only say this because in real sword fighting and in the movies it is possible to block from the back.

 

 

I see your point and you put it very well but I have to disagree in the interest of fair consistant game play.

 

I think that you should have to work at defense. Most times you take a hit in the back its because you either missed and they side stepped you, or you lost sight of your enemy and they got behind you. Either way I feel this person has earned a hit.

 

Second anything random is just luck in game play. Wouldn't it suck to lose a duel because your hit get blocked but their same hit gets thru?

 

Thank you very much for posting your ideas!

[razorace]

It happens a lot where I have played. Also you may be on a server that has the blocking tuned to a lower setting.

 

Nope, I normally play it with defaults except for ghoul 2 collision on.

 

Second anything random is just luck in game play. Wouldn't it suck to lose a duel because your hit get blocked but their same hit gets thru?

 

Not really, almost everything is luck anyway. Sides, how else would you simulate the Jedi Force Sense?

[blackfire]

"I think that you should have to work at defense. Most times you take a hit in the back its because you either missed and they side stepped you, or you lost sight of your enemy and they got behind you. Either way I feel this person has earned a hit.

 

Second anything random is just luck in game play. Wouldn't it suck to lose a duel because your hit get blocked but their same hit gets thru?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Point taken, I only said to randomise it because there is only so much you can do with keyboard and mouse. If this were real sword fighting you can react and control your movements with much more precision(obviously).

 

Secondly, I don't know about you but luck has saved my butt in real life to.

[razorace]

Yeah. Now if the game went about 50-80 slower you could possibly turn on manual blocking, but even then you'd lack the ability to make quick reflex movements like in real life (like dodging a close sword blade by sucking in your gut and hopping back.)

[Mr Tim]

Part of the problem is trying to make a game that works in every MP mode.

 

1.04 is great in NF duels, which is what I normally play. They go for about the right amount of time, IMHO, and skill does play a big part. It certainly does not just come down to luck (well not over time anyway - there may be a duel here or there which is decided by luck, but on average skill has been the biggest factor in the games I've played).

 

However, in FFA and other modes - the saber is way too underpowered. It's practically impossible to get a kill. Blocking is high and even when you do connect it doesn't seem to do much.

 

What would be good is if 1.04 remained relatively as is for duels, but if saber damage was seriously upped for FFA and other modes. Maybe any solid hit with red stance is a one-hit-kill; yellow might take two hits to kill; and blue kills with three hits. Blocking of sabres (but not blasters) could be toned down a bit as well in these game types.

 

Also, being Jedi Knight, sabres should be the most powerful weapon in the game. I agree with the sentiment expressed elsewhere that a force user with a saber should be relatively untouchable by someone solely using guns, which is not presently the case. Upping the sabre damage would help on this point as well, but maybe more should be done - I'm not sure.

 

What do people reckon?

 

Would it even be possible for the 'community' to come to a consensus on what should be done if there is another patch?

[blackfire]

"Part of the problem is trying to make a game that works in every MP mode."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I agree with you entirely on this. FFAs are completely different from duels and should be different in saber combat also. FFAs, as we all know is about frags and that's it; where duels are more about strategy and just having fun with your oppenent, not just nessesarily winning(while it's always nice when you do:)). They are supposed to have a more movie like feel to them IMHO.

[blackfire]

Heh I'm no longer bantha fodder:D

[.:Silver:.]

Raven you need to start reading some of FatalStrike's post's. He know how this game should work to be fun again.

[technobot]

it's funny, the same people who say "1.04 requires MORE skill" are the same people who are used to being hit with a lightsaber several times before they are killed. I find this requires LESS skill:

 

let's say everyone knows how to do a certain move that will ALWAYS kill the opponent in one hit, regardless of shields and health. a duel between two people who know this move ends up being very tense because the slightest miscalculation (or put another way, demonstration of lesser skill) results in death for the unfortunate victim.

 

let's take it another level higher. since everyone knows how to do this move, servers are filled with supposedly skilled players saying that "any newb can execute that move and win a ffa board", yet the so-called newbs have consistently mediocre scores, the complainers have the worst scores on the board, and the guys with "no-skill" seem to win regularly... what does this mean?

 

well first of all, i don't care how "unskilled" something is deemed by the moronic masses, if a move that everyone can do is used to dominate a game, and the same guy wins ALL THE TIME using said move, well, the winner has demonstrated his skill, and the complainers are only demonstrating the fact that they are sore losers. it's true any "newb" can win a server using said move but the instant a truly skilled player arrives why is it that the newbs are shunted to the bottom of the leaderboard (usually ahead of the complainers, though)

 

now back to 1.04... I'm coming around, but I find it ridiculous to hear the proponents say this patch requires "more" skill. here's the situation: because the lightsaber currently does very little damage, a plain vanilla, default settings server means I can be hit with a lightsaber several times before I die... with the ridiculous blocking system this means I'm allowed to royally f@ck up and leave a gigantic opening for my opponent, yet I still won't be killed the first time, or the second time, or probably the third or fourth time. SO HOW THE HELL DOES THIS REQUIRE MORE SKILL?

 

If you "skilled" players are that great, you should ALWAYS be able to kill your opponent in one hit (with saberdamagescale adjusted accordingly), without taking a single hit. Think about it patch lovers: if I know one hit from your saber will INSTANTLY kill me, and you are playing by the same rules, won't it take more skill to A) ensure I hit you, and B) ensure you don't hit me? Instead I see guys whacking each other (appropriate image) with their glowsticks, hittting each other REPEATEDLY, and then patting each other on the asses saying, "man, this takes way more skill, despite the fact that I just hit you four times with what should be a lethal weapon"...

 

sorry, if you disagree with me take solace in knowing I have less skill than you, or something like that...

 

to all the patch haters, just remember, many guys on this forum have said something similar, if the whiners get their way:

 

1.09 will involve all 7 of the guys who are left playing what was once a great game, and is now a very boring game:

 

the lightsaber will do 1 point of damage if it hits cleanly, which only happens 1% of the time... the rest of the time sparks will simply fly

 

kick will have been removed in 1.05 because it's cheap

 

all guns will do 1 point of damage as well, and there will be no ammo on any map because guns are cheap

 

there will be no force powers except for jump because despite the fact that this is a star wars game based on jedi, force powers are uber cheap

 

killing a guy with his saber down will result in an instant disconnect

 

refusing to bow before a duel will send an email to the other 6 players that you have "no skill" because bowing is demonstrative of skill

 

each player will start with 1000 health and 800 shields to best emulate "duels out of the movies" where fights are anything but lethal and combatants take repeated blows from lightsabers and suffer nary a scratch

[Mr Tim]

Technobot, I thought you had a couple of good points, althoguh the second half of your message seemed to ridicule some fair comments by reducing it to the level of the absurd. That said, your point that:

 

Originally posted by technobot

 

now back to 1.04... I'm coming around, but I find it ridiculous to hear the proponents say this patch requires "more" skill. here's the situation: because the lightsaber currently does very little damage, a plain vanilla, default settings server means I can be hit with a lightsaber several times before I die... with the ridiculous blocking system this means I'm allowed to royally f@ck up and leave a gigantic opening for my opponent, yet I still won't be killed the first time, or the second time, or probably the third or fourth time. SO HOW THE HELL DOES THIS REQUIRE MORE SKILL?

 

This still seems to be the biggest problem - that you can leave yourself wide open, and someone can slice you down the middle with a heavy stance slash and not kill you... which is just plain wrong.

 

On the other hand, here's an alternative view: if someone uses, say, light or medium stance and jsut keeps slashing and twirling like a spinning top, such that you get hit at least a bit with almost any move when you try to move in on them - how does that involve skill? And if blocking is lessened too much and sabre damage is escalated, this is not an unlikley scenario.

[razorace]

NERF THEM! NERF THEM ALL TO HELL!

[Homosexual Ewok]

Well-said technobot.

V1.04 does not require more "skill" it simply gives players who never developed decent defensive skills a greater chance to survive.

 

The most common pro-v1.04 comment I see is still something along the lines of "This Lamer tried to backstab me and it only did 25 damage, hahaha".

 

Yeah, now that's a true "skilled players" defense if I ever saw one...

[razorace]

Just a thought, but I doubt all this "the patches SUCK!!!!!@!" talk is going to make Raven want to continue releasing patches.....

[Mr Tim]

Well, we could email someone there and ask them what convinced them to release the previous patches. That would answer that question at least.

[Lunatic Jedi]

What I'm most concerned about is blocking. On one end, you have standard attacks, which are blocked about 90% of the time and have an arc that stretches to about 270 degrees around the body. In fact, I once had a guy block my strong swing as he was crouching and shaking his stupid ass at me! (True story) The only real guaranteed striking point is right down their spine, which is takes nearly forever to find an opening to unless they're standing completely still. Even worse, a nice thwack from a searing beam of light that can cut solid metal does about as much damage as a candy cane when it comes to a living, fragile, organic being.

 

Then, on the other side of the spectrum are the special moves. These are powerful attacks, some of them impossible to block and can kill in one hit. What's worse, they are not extremely difficult to execute, considering what kind of damage they can do. In 1.03, people were running around backward just to pull of one of these, and I think I know what I'm talking about.

 

The worst part about this was not that people exploited this, or that they benefited greatly from it, or that frustrated other players. The worst part was the fact that it ABSOLUTELY MADE A MOCKERY OF EVERYTHING THE INNOCENT DEVELOPERS AT RAVEN WORKED SO HARD TO CREATE! Can't you see that what the developers wanted with this game was realism?! They wanted realistic physics, combat and overall appearance. There is nothing realistic about running backwards all the time just so you can pull off a one-hit-kill move!

 

Hmmm... I don't remember ever seeing anybody running backwards in the Star Wars movies or books, or anything of that sort... oh, that's right! It didn't happen in Star Wars! IT HAPPENS BECAUSE A FEW PEOPLE WHO WILL DO ANYTHING TO MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK GOOD ARE USING A MISGUIDED MOVE TO RACK UP KILLS AND GLORIFY THEMSELVES FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR PATHETIC LITTLE INJURED EGOS!

 

Okay, now I've gotten off on a rant that Dennis Miller himself would envy, so maybe I should just outline my points in case anybody missed them in my scattered mess of rage and cynicism...

 

1. Scale up the damage on standard lightsaber attacks so people actually have a reason to use them.

 

2. Decrease the blocking arc. Maybe make it just the 180 degrees in front of the person. Maybe even less. Because no matter how acute a Jedi's blocking sense is, there's a reason why they're able to move with such speed and agility... because you can't just stand there and block everything that comes at you!

 

3. Don't neccessarily nerf the special moves, just lame them up a bit so they don't become the only things anybody wants to use. After all, backstab, logistically, shouldn't do much damage. Its not really slashing a whole lot, just putting a neat little hole through the enemy. After all, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for about fifteen minutes after he got stabbed! DFA, on the other hand... well... its powerful, but no steering in mid-air! If you need mid-air DFA steering, make it very slight. Have you ever tried to change the direction of your jump in mid air in real life? Well I have, and its not easy.

 

4. I know I didn't really mention this, but if it can be done, PLEASE do it. Limit access to the console so that players can't bind moves. I'm getting sick of people pulling off a flawless combo with just one click or press of a key. If they want to pull off a great combo, they should master the sequences fair and square.

 

That about covers it. Oh, wait. One more thing... sorry, Dennis Miller!