The Nature of Lightsaber Combat

[razorace]

1. It's way more interesting and consistent than the bible.

2. If I have too much time on my hands, what about the guy who spents time mocking other people about having too much time on their hands?

[thehomicidalegg]

theres a question i gotta ask, all the jedis blabber bout anakin: how he's the chosen one and how he'll bring balance to the force. Now what exactly does that mean? Then, the jedi were strong and the dark side was weak, so anakin succumbs to the darkside and kills the jedis so that the dark side is stronger and light is weaker to bring balance? is it just me or does this seem pretty stupid?

[<>Phant0m<>]

Originally posted by Psykotik

Darth Maul's death isn't to well thought through. A jedi can see things before they happen (Qui Gon's own words), so he would have seen Obi Wan's leap coming and not just stand there like a moron (Okay, so I'm a little bitter that Lucas killed off the most artistic fighter in Star Wars like a putz--he seems to enjoy doing that, first Boba Fett (I know according to EU he isn't actually dead, but that doesn't change anything) then Maul).

 

He does see the future, he sees his own death!

 

If you watch that part again, hes c0cky and proud because hes just defeated two Jedi's including a master (QGJ) and just as Obi force jumps and grabs QGJ's sabre, he has a Shocked expression on his face, thats because hes just seen his body falling down the bottomless pit in half, thats probably why he was killed so easily, he was just so shocked that he was defeated so easily that he lost concentration of the moment.

 

Originally posted by razorace

If I have too much time on my hands, what about the guy who spents time mocking other people about having too much time on their hands? [/b]

 

So true

Plus this is a starwars forum afterall.

 

Originally posted by thehomicidalegg

theres a question i gotta ask, all the jedis blabber bout anakin: how he's the chosen one and how he'll bring balance to the force. Now what exactly does that mean? Then, the jedi were strong and the dark side was weak, so anakin succumbs to the darkside and kills the jedis so that the dark side is stronger and light is weaker to bring balance? is it just me or does this seem pretty stupid?[/b]

 

Thats what ive thought about, maybe its a Sith Prophecy??

Or maybe thats just part of it, as he kills most of the jedi apart from the Obi-wan and yoda, so that leaves it equal 2 vs 2 (Obi-wan and yoda vs Vader and Palpatine)

[Psykotik]

Originally posted by razorace

Luke never mentions any voices in his head to anyone else in the movie....

 

Maybe not, but he does say he's fine. Me, at that point, I'd be thinking "great, you're 'fine', nevermind that that things about to blow us up, you're 'fine' so thats all that matters."

 

And yes, I may very well have to much time on my hands.

[Catch]

While all of you stand around chit-chatting about realism, I use my lunge attack on the entire group and slay you all! Too bad you didn't hit the block button in time

[razorace]

Originally posted by thehomicidalegg

theres a question i gotta ask, all the jedis blabber bout anakin: how he's the chosen one and how he'll bring balance to the force. Now what exactly does that mean? Then, the jedi were strong and the dark side was weak, so anakin succumbs to the darkside and kills the jedis so that the dark side is stronger and light is weaker to bring balance? is it just me or does this seem pretty stupid?

 

I think it's related to the balance of Good vs. Evil in the hearts of normal people. The Old Republic was be coming curupted and appity ruled in the hearts of men. Maybe causing the Empire made people start caring for each other more....

 

Or it's the balance of Force Users vs. Non-Force Users. The act of Vader destroying a large portion of the Jedi could explain that.

 

Or it's the balance of Dark vs. Light Jedi, maybe the existance of a few powerful Dark Siders vs. a lot of Light Siders was causing a density problem with the Force.

[razorace]

I'll add that the average SW culture is influenced by the Force. I've noticed that people don't seem to have easily preventable accidents when the result could be serious injury or death and the design of their cultures show this.

 

There is rarely any sort of handrailing, even in heavy traffic areas, where one misstep would easily kill you. (Heck, the only handrailing we have seen is only there for dramatic effect, for characters to lean on, or for sabers to cut.)

 

Everyone is comfortable manually controlling open air vehicles at high speeds in dangerous environments. My guess is that ALL the people have the Force to a certain degree to prevent those type of accidents. The Force is generated by living creatures so it makes good sense for it to sutlely prevent loss of life.

[Tree]

Originally posted by razorace

I've been studying the movies to determine a way to improve the "realism" of the Jedi combat in the game. After studying the movies I've put together a basic theory on the nature of lightsaber combat. Let me know your guys'/gals' thoughts/additions/etc....

 

Initial Movie Saber Combat Theory:

 

1. Every attack has a defender and an attacker.

2. The battle has a momentum: One person tends to attack repeatedly, while the other defends until one decides to switch.

3. All actual damaging or alternative (non-saber attacks -> kick, backhand, force power, etc.) attacks come immediately after a saber connection.

4. All battlers slow to at least a quick walk speed when swinging or parrying.

5. All midair moves are used for manouvering and not attacking.

6. All spins are faster than in the game and don't seem to have any special effect.

7. Force power useage is limited to "easy" and"personal" powers. All other powers require heavy concentration.

8. Force powers are easily scaleable to the situation.

9. Combat is VERY tiring and fatigue is a serious issue.

 

Razor Ace

 

1. I don't really get that. But I'm slow so....

 

If its what I think your saying thats a total given. If not most saber fights would end up like most actual sword fights. Both people dead or seriously wonded.

 

Or they would both defend.

 

9. Obi-wan didn't look worn out at all in a New hope. There are other examples.

 

This sounds like a noble goal but I don't think it will ever be reached.

 

People would just never play like they did in the movies. Movies add a lot of useless crap to look pretty. People wont do that.

 

But I guess I support any effort to improve the game.

 

Saber battles could be so much better.

[Wheezle]

Originally posted by razorace

5. Jedi don't flich.

 

Yes they do, that's how Qui-gon died in episode I

[razorace]

He didn't flinch at all, Darth maul stunned him with a hilt uppercut and then backstabbed him.

 

Obi-wan didn't look worn out at all in a New hope. There are other examples.

 

True, but:

 

• He was a powerful Jedi
  
• Hadn't been fighting for long
  
• It was only the first movie. Saber combat has gotten progressively better and more uhh..realistic with each movie.
  
• You don't have to show outward signs of fatigue. Often you'll see the Jedi only show fatigue after the battle. (Yoda, Qui-Gon in the dessert battle, etc.)
  

[Naphtali]

[. Also to simulate fatigue, your force level could slowly drain at the duel goes on. [/b]

 

 

THat shouldn't be so, it would be simpler to make them slower, or one stance wear down

[razorace]

Make what slower? and have the "stance wear down"? What?

[thehomicidalegg]

I think it's related to the balance of Good vs. Evil in the hearts of normal people. The Old Republic was be coming curupted and appity ruled in the hearts of men. Maybe causing the Empire made people start caring for each other more....

 

Or it's the balance of Force Users vs. Non-Force Users. The act of Vader destroying a large portion of the Jedi could explain that.

 

Or it's the balance of Dark vs. Light Jedi, maybe the existance of a few powerful Dark Siders vs. a lot of Light Siders was causing a density problem with the Force.

 

when anakin was found, wasnt there more good than evil, more light than dark, more jedi than sith, so balancing the force in all 3 cases above would mean making the condition worse wouldnt it? And the jedis just walk headlong into that as if they were going to heaven.

[razorace]

when anakin was found, wasnt there more good than evil, more light than dark, more jedi than sith, so balancing the force in all 3 cases above would mean making the condition worse wouldnt it? And the jedis just walk headlong into that as if they were going to heaven.

 

Not nessicarily, you can have a "good" form of government that filled with corruption. Perhaps there's more "evil" in the hearts of men in the time of the Old republic than in the Empire's day. Maybe the Empire and Vader were a type of catylse for change in the hearts of the general population. The battle to stop Empire could have drawn out the "good" in people. In the Old Republic, the general population just stood around when the Nabooians suffered. During the Empire's day, every attorcity that the Empire performed drew thousands to the Rebellion's cause.

[ArtifeX]

This is pretty funny--this is almost the exact same conversation I had in my head that led me to do my mod.

 

The mod itself has been sent to jediknightii.net and fileshack.com for posting in their file sections. Until then, check out what will soon be the official site, but holds just the readme file at this point (very verbose, though):

 

http://www.oculis.org/promod

[Pedro The Hutt]

Originally posted by Psykotik

Luke, in the span of a day or two, goes from a panicy farm boy running from Imperial Star Destroyers, to a controlled leader attacking an armored battle station against impossible odds.

 

 

Perhaps he felt more secure with Biggs and the others being around him ^.^ And adrenaline can have amazing effects on someone. Also he felt comfortable with the control system of the X-Wing since they're apparently nearly identical to those of the T-16 Skyhopper. So meh, it can be possible lol.

[Tree]

You left out one important thig, If I missed it I apologize.

 

The fight is over after the first "saber to person" contact is made.

 

Unlike current JK2 MP where you can swing directly through someones mid section only causing light damage.

 

The ONLY exception I can think of is attack of the clones where dooku hits obi-wan 2 times before the fight is over. But I might be wrong.

 

If you made your mod to imitate this it would be very interesting.

 

It rememinds me of the samurai fighting game Bushido blade. 1 or 2 hits and your dead. Very underated game and a ****load of fun.

[razorace]

Yes, that's very true but in at least one case (vader), people can take a glancing blow and keep fighting.

 

and yes, my mod will make the one hit kill a reality. The main thread for my mod, Masters of the Force, is here. I haven't gotten much of a response from the general public yet, and I could use ALL the feedback/help I can get.

[KnightHawk420]

Originally posted by razorace

Sorry I disagree, you can't just except people to totally rely on a block key to block all the attacks, That's a hellalot of button presses and people just don't have Jedi reflexes. I think the best solution is probably a block button AND a fair amount of auto-blocking.

 

So you effectively think video games shouldn't take good reflexes? HA.

[razorace]

No, I'm saying people can't handle 100% manual control of blocking in a lightsaber fight without it looking stupid and unfun to play. The combat is simply too quick for a person to be able to react quickly enough to block individual attacks. You have to expect some level of auto-blocking to keep the game fun and fast paced.