BUG - Republic unbeatable

[simwiz2]

I was playing a multiplayer game and discovered a bug that makes the republic unbeatable on some space maps. If the republic can get to T4, research mind trick and get a starfighter, then they are unbeatable. There is no detector unit (other than UU's) that can fly. So if you put the starfighters out of range of land sentry posts/bounties, they cannot be killed, unless you are playing against rebels or another republic. It is an unbeatable roaching tactic (not that I would ever roach).

 

So here are some fixes that could be implemented to prevent abuse of this bug.

 

*Starfighters not keep person in game. In other words, they would be like turrets, such that having a turret (or starfighter) surviving does not prevent you from losing.

 

*Make fighters detector units. Not recommended as this may ruin the importance of jedi and starfighters.

 

*Make Bothan Spies reveal stealth units. Not recommended as this could reduce the importance of stealth units.

[Sithmaster_821]

Or you could be a respectable player and not roach. Just my two cents.

[simwiz2]

I don't roach. But not everyone is as respecable as I am, and would abuse this bug.

[CorranSec]

Well, that is interesting.

The fact is that not many people would think of that, and if they thought they might lose, they'd actually defend their base with their starfighters.

The other point is that the evil people who would do things like that but just haven't thought of it yet have come in here and SEEN your post, and by posting it, you've given them a tactic.

Pretty bad huh?

I don't believe that implementing any of the ideas you proposed would either help out the game or be fair in maps other than space maps. There aren't that many stealth units anyway, and everyone gets Bothan Spynet eventually. Fighters could act as airborne scouts with your proposed upgrade.. this would make scouts obsolete once you reach tech 3.

What I propose is a new air unit that has stealth-detecting technology. This may be a little unbalancing; it couldn't be slow, or it would be useless, but too fast and they could sweep enemy bases. Starfighters should count as a unit, because otherwise big units of starfighters designed for defence/running away/ etc. wouldn't count and would screw up the republic a bit.

So it should be around bomber speed, and to prevent easy detection of jedi etc. and making the scout useless, it should be designed to locate air stealth units.

This may also unbalance land maps... so you could make it useable only on space maps.

It's also tailored anti-republic, so it depowers the Republic a bit.

Damn. I just paid out my own idea.

 

Another way is to have a 'stealth sweeper' tech like in StarCraft... that would be cool.

I'm fairly respectable. I wouldn't do that, that's just dumb and denying a good player a fair kill.

[Kryllith]

If I were in a game where the situation got to this point; I'd just end the game (if bothans didn't show anything existing and I'd covered the ground enough to know that no jedi were in existence). The game it pretty much over anyway since the opponent has no way of building anything anymore (or even collecting resources). It's sort of like chess, where the jedi starfighters represent the king standing on it's own. Even if the opponent doesn't actually TAKE the king, the game is over...

 

Kryllith

[Bulzye]

simwiz2: "I don't roach. But not everyone is as respecable as I am, and would abuse this bug."

 

You're a lying **** and you know it! I was the one that played him in the game where he found the bug (which btw he sucks). After I destroyed his base he roached. He pointed out that he roached and up until this point he still says "You didn't win! I was never defeated!".

 

So simwiz, here's the question that I ask you. Did I win? Let's analyze the outcomes of your response.

 

1) "Yes Bulzye, you won. You beat me fair and square. Even though the map that we played which I(simwiz2) built myself was made in favor of me. You still won because you are so good and I am so bad"

 

Result: I won the game, and you admit it.

 

2) "No Bulzye, I'm a roacher. Even though I did eventually resign (so if you're looking for technicalities I won), you didn't win because I roached and I'm a stupid honorless roacher."

 

Result: I still won, but everyone on the forum knows you roached and lied too.

 

GOD I'm good

[Compa_Mighty]

The thing is that it's not a bug, it's just exploiting the unit.

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Bulzye

simwiz2: "I don't roach. But not everyone is as respecable as I am, and would abuse this bug."

 

You're a lying **** and you know it! I was the one that played him in the game where he found the bug (which btw he sucks). After I destroyed his base he roached. He pointed out that he roached and up until this point he still says "You didn't win! I was never defeated!".

Fine, so I roached once because it was right when I discovered it and I wanted to see if it worked. Then, after an entire 2 minutes, I had to get off the computer and I left, so you won anyway. Besides, I would not have had the patience to sit for long with a few starfighters sitting over the space. Btw I was JOKING when I said you never technically defeated me, it was obvious you won. You know what a joke is right?

 

So simwiz, here's the question that I ask you. Did I win? Let's analyze the outcomes of your response.

 

1) "Yes Bulzye, you won. You beat me fair and square. Even though the map that we played which I(simwiz2) built myself was made in favor of me. You still won because you are so good and I am so bad"

What the hell kind of lies are you trying to tell, half this **** is nowhere near the truth. The map was even, I made certain myself, with the exeption of ONE NOVA CHUNK (omg how incredibly earth-shattering) which was an error. There were many nova chunks, and they are hard to count because they form one piece when they are placed together. You of course being constantly paranoid were the only one who could notice an erroneous nova chunk on a map with at least 40. And how the hell does you being a bit better than me in 1v1 GB make me bad? So if I find someone on the zone who is better than you then you suck at GB? Actually Sithmaster can beat you, so Sithmaster is so good and you are so bad? Makes as much sense as half the stuff you are ranting about. And IIRC in that zone game we had, who had all the points? I rushed and took down an entire opponent while you sat around trying to decide how to rush one of the other opponents effectively (I saw your attack, it sucked). You even had Sithmaster helping you, yet you were unable to take down a little turret. And don't give me any "it was high resources, you had an advantage" crap, because EVERYONE had high resources, I just used mine more effectively.

 

Result: I won the game, and you admit it.

 

2) "No Bulzye, I'm a roacher. Even though I did eventually resign (so if you're looking for technicalities I won), you didn't win because I roached and I'm a stupid honorless roacher."

 

Result: I still won, but everyone on the forum knows you roached and lied too.

 

What the hell are you talking about, you are making about as much sense DK_Viceroy's fragmented ideas in the second Gunship poll thread. Are your quotes supposed to represent something that I might in a million years actually say? Are they supposed to be the truth? Either way they sure as hell aren't very accurate. As I said, I only roached that one time because I had just discovered and exploit and I wanted to see if it would work. Not only do I willingly admit defeat when I lose a game, I rarely have to because I win about 98% of my MP games.

 

I notice you only have one post, and I know you weren't a member of Lucasforums before now. Did you seriously register just to start a flame war with me? That is so very, very sad. I truly pity you. Besides all that you are being a hypocrite, calling me a lying **** while you make up stories about an uneven map and me constantly roaching. Very sad indeed.

[pbguy1211]

roaching = last guys hiding out so they cant technically be defeated?

[Bulzye]

I'm not going to turn this into a personal battle, I can do that off forum if I want, which I will .

 

But let me close by saying roachers = (fill in whatever you find appropriate)

[Kryllith]

Originally posted by pbguy1211

roaching = last guys hiding out so they cant technically be defeated?

Basically yeah... cheesey stalemate is what it is. Though its pointless since everyone knows who the winner is in such an outcome anyway. As for simwiz2 doing it... *shrug*... I know lots of people who will try something just to see if it can be done (that's what finding bugs, loopholes, etc are all about). He freely admits to it; so frankly it's no big deal. If nothing else, he should be commended for finding the flaw that makes it possible.

 

Btw, if you want a suggestion for fixing the flaw. Allow something (workers, or perhaps a command center or something) to build space probes that work like water probes/watch towers. Then let ait transports pick them up like they would any other unit and place them out in space. It's a slow going strategy since the starfighters could attack the probes, but if fighters were used to guard the probes and the transports, it would certainly work (especially against an opponent who no longer had the capability to build more starfighters).

 

Kryllith

[pbguy1211]

Okay... explain to me if this is roaching... I was in a game over the weekend. 6 player RM, 3v3. One of my teammates quit early. But his base was fairly hidden so they didnt wipe it out and I was able to use his spaceport. Thank god... my other teammate was fairly a n00b as were 2 guys on the opposing team. My one teammate was getting hammered by their good guy and I took out their 2 crappy guys. However, my teammate hid in the back and sides of my base, and those 2 hid in the back of his. And it was a pain in tha @$$ but eventually I got them all, even after my partner disconnected.

Their good guy stormed my not so fortified center base, and made his way to my main one which was well defended. But didn't expect 10 AC's coming in the back door and wiping up his entire base. Sucks when you have a big army but no prefabs

The AC's then took care of the rest. So were these 3 guys roaching?

[Kryllith]

I'm taking roaching to mean setting it up so that the opponent CANNOT win (or otherwise abusing something). I could be wrong, but that's the way I read it. I would hardly consider allies building in and around each other in order to increase their defensive stance as abusing something...

 

Of course, I might be reading you wrong. What specifically do you think might be roaching on their part?

 

Kryllith

[simwiz2]

Roaching is hiding or fleeing a few units after you have been clearly defeated, your buildings gone, no workers, no hope to build more, no purpose to it whatsoever except to try to gain victory by forcing the other person to resign (possibly if he gets fed up searching for the unit). However, all roachers can eventually be found, with the exception of this exploit. It is unique because it is IMPOSSIBLE to see the starfighters if they are placed properly, and therefore impossible to destroy them even if you have your entire air force sitting next to them. Only the Rebels or another Republic player have the detector units (Airspeeder and Starfighter) to fly over space and see the Starfighters.

 

Btw I just thought of something, the Empire can probably defeat this too, using its probots - they are detectors right? Probots can go over all terrain, including space, and find the starfighters if they are detectors.

[pbguy1211]

K... that's just being a friggin loser.

BTW, simwiz, where are you in jersey?

[jcb231]

I think that Bothan spynet should work more like the Terran scan technology in Star Craft. In that game, you used the scanner at your command center (which recovered energy between scans at a slow pace) to click on an area of the map. That area was revealed in all its glory for several seconds....then it faded back to the "explored, but not visible" grey. I don't remember if it let you see stealth units or not, but that feature could be added for GB...Bothan spynet is a little too powerful for my tastes as it stands right now, so maybe changing it to something like this would work better, as well as solving the stealth roaching problem.

[Kryllith]

Yeah, I always thought the bothans should show a brief view of where everything is (cept possibly stealth, though even that's possible) for about 10 seconds or so. After that, it would go back to the explored, but not viewed variation. Buildings would still show as being there, but units wouldn't, nor would any new buildings (or even destroyed buildings, if the person who used the spynet didn't destroy them). Subsequently, a player might use the bothans multiple times, with the most expensive cost being the first and the others being a fair bit cheaper (since it would most likely be used to hunt down hiding units).

 

Kryllith

[CorranSec]

Yeah, Jcb, that's what I meant. If my disconnected discourse made any sense.

The ComScan thing, or whatever it was called, did reveal stealth units; that's why it was so remarkably useful. Eg, if your base was under attack by Ghosts or those Zerg things that burrowed in Brood War, you could sensor sweep the area and have your men take them out.

Of course, this purpose is rendered fairly useless in SW:GB as all cloaked units decloak when attacking anyway, but it would still be incredibly useful and not as powerful as the Bothan Spynet, which I always thought was a ineptly named and overpowered upgrade.

[eizo131]

err well I don't know if this roaching but I use starfighters to terrorize unprotected workers and spy on their production facilities i.e. troop centers, etc... is that roaching? Jedi , Sith and Jedi starfighters do not turn up on ANYTHING unless attacking or of course detector units. But the republic is NOT invincible unless the player is a sore loser that i when they hide troops.

[Darth Windu]

eizo - no, thats not roaching.

 

I also think that the bothan spynet is way too good, and should be taken out of the game. Instead the rebels should lose some heavy weapons such as the assault mech, but get a 'bothan spy' unit that works like the spy in the C&C: Red Alert series. Its abilities would be that if you got it in a building, it would give you certain advatages such as-

-Command center - LOS of units

-unit producing buildings - lets you see what their building/queing

-resource buildings - steals a certain amount of that resource

[Kryllith]

Originally posted by eizo131

err well I don't know if this roaching but I use starfighters to terrorize unprotected workers and spy on their production facilities i.e. troop centers, etc... is that roaching? Jedi , Sith and Jedi starfighters do not turn up on ANYTHING unless attacking or of course detector units. But the republic is NOT invincible unless the player is a sore loser that i when they hide troops.

Well first it's not roaching because you're actually using your starfighters to engage in battle (or to spy). Your starfighters are still vulnerable at this point because if a scout or similar detector unit comes across them then your opponent can counterattack. If you were simply hiding them in hopes of nobody being able to find them so you wouldn't lose, then you're roaching.

 

Kryllith

[pbguy1211]

Windu, if you have so many problems with the game, then just stop playing it so we don't have to hear you whine about it.

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

eizo - no, thats not roaching.

 

(1) I also think that the bothan spynet is way too good, and should be taken out of the game. (2)Instead the rebels should lose some (3)heavy weapons such as the assault mech, but get a (4)'bothan spy' unit that works like the spy in the C&C: Red Alert series. Its abilities would be that if you got it in a building, it would give you certain advatages such as-

(5)-Command center - LOS of units

-unit producing buildings - lets you see what their building/queing

-resource buildings - steals a certain amount of that resource

 

1 - Your idea would be a dream come true for the non-starfighter roachers.

 

2 - Just leave the rebels alone, is the comp beating you with them and you want to depower them?

 

3 - Hate to break it to you but the assault mech is not a heavy weapon.

 

4 - If C&C is so great then go play it and shut up. Or ask LucasArts to make GB2 using the C&C engine, since they obviously won't make their own.

 

5 - Okay, you don't want to depower them, you want to OVERPOWER them. LOS of units is a valuable thing, and all a rebel player has to do is put a spy in a CC? And no one else gets it? And no, that's not strong enough, now they can steal resources, and see exactly what kind of units are being built to counter them.

[Darth Windu]

simwiz - there is certainly no need for the bothan spynet to be as good as it currently is. Also, by 'heavy weapon' i was refering to any weapon that happened to be heavy, and im pretty sure an assault mech would be heavy. What im saying with the rebels is that they need to be more of a shoot-n-scoot civ with good intelligence, wheras the empire for example would use brute force. There really needs to be a bigger difference between the civs, and i think a start would be denying civs some units, as was done in the original AoE.

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

(1) simwiz - there is certainly no need for the bothan spynet to be as good as it currently is. (2) Also, by 'heavy weapon' i was refering to any weapon that happened to be heavy, and im pretty sure an assault mech would be heavy. (3) What im saying with the rebels is that they need to be more of a shoot-n-scoot civ with good intelligence, wheras the empire for example would use brute force. (4) There really needs to be a bigger difference between the civs, and i think a start would be denying civs some units, (5) as was done in the original AoE.

 

1 - No, there isn't. But I could think of several ideas better than the one you suggested.

 

2 - What you are refering to is something called a mech, not a heavy weapon.

 

3 - Now Rebels would not only be one of the few civs able to counter starfighter roach, they would be the ONLY civ to counter a regular roach without taking several hours searching the map. EVERYONE needs the bothan spy tech, whether its potency is reduced or not. Seeing all unit LOS is just too valuable to give to one civ only.

 

4 - That could work in a non-generic unit game.

 

5 - The original AoE was unbalanced as hell. Not a good direction for GB to take.