Absolutism and Randomness in 1.04

[ArtifeX]

I've had people comment to me that they think the 1.04 patch has very little luck associated with its outcomes. I'd like to address that here.

 

Black and White 1.04

 

1.03 and 1.04 are a practice in absolutism or randomness. Both of which are undesirable in a competitive environment. If your opponent is in front of you (180-degrees), and you're not swinging, then you block 100% with Strong style (absolute). If your opponent is also using Strong, then 3 out of 20 hits will do a defense breaker (random). If both players are swinging, then they can't block at all (absolute), unless their sabers come into contact in the air, in which case they can go into a saber lock (randomly determined), they can bounce off each other if the angles are opposites (absolute), or one person's defense can be broken by the other player if that player has a higher level of saber offense (absolute), or is using a weaker style (absolute). If you swing at someone while you're extremely close to them with a wide range attack, then you'll end up swinging through them and hit them from behind (a bug), which will bypass the game's defense logic altogether (absolute).

 

There are no shades of grey. They try to fake shades of grey with randomizers. There's either white (you can block 100%), grey (you can block when you're lucky), or there's black (no defense).

 

Where's the skill?

 

Based on the above, which is taken directly from the game code, we can see that there are 4 times when we can hit someone with a saber. One, when they're swinging at us. Two, when they're using something other than Strong style and get their defense broken. Three, when we take advantage of the bug in the game and bypass the defense logic. Four, they're faced completely away from us.

 

Which of these take skill to accomplish? I'd say taking advantage of someone else swinging at you certainly does. Your opponent using something other than Strong and getting their defense broken requires no skill whatsoever. Taking advantage of the bug requires only getting close to your target, which most players have no trouble doing since you can't run as fast going backwards as you can forwards, so eventually you will get close to them. Lastly, if your opponent lacks the skill to keep you from getting behind him, then they probably shouldn't be in a competition in the first place.

 

That's only one way of hitting your opponent with a saber that actually requires skill, though I'd say that getting close enough to use the bug might count for a half of one. So 1.5 out of 4 ways? That's only 37.5% of the possible attacks that are skill related. The other 62.5% is either randomly determined or plain foolishness on the part of your opponent.

 

At high levels of competition, the combat tends to focus on the 37.5% that is skill related, but think about that. What you're doing to defeat your opponent is only one of two things: either you're waiting for them to swing so you can swing, or you're exploiting a bug. That isn't how a tournament duel should be. Just watch a really good group of players go at it and count the number of hits. See how many land while the other person is swinging or when the bug is taken advantage of. It'll be close to 100%.

 

The only reason people don't notice this more is because combat tends to be broken up with things like the randomized saber locks, parries, bounces and defense breakers. Kicks are also in there, which do require some moderate skill to pull off, but is unblockable and can only be dodged (absolute).

 

All this adds up to a game that isn't as deep as it should be. ProMod was written to add that depth. There are no absolutes or randomized results in ProMod.

[Dark Begger]

hmmm..this sounds vaguely familiar...oh wait! I just read this on Jedibattlefield! lol..copy paste whore...LOL

[Rad Blackrose]

lol Beggar, but it is good reading, no?

[Dark Begger]

yeah yeah..it's worth the read. but reads better at http://www.jedibattlefield.com ! Really! It's easier to read!

 

[ArtifeX]

What's really amusing and kinda sad at the same time is that after I fixed all the bugs associated with the Strong saber style, Strong style ends up being a bit underpowered. It appears that Raven made deliberate changes to the code in 1.03 and 1.04 to make this appear as a "feature" rather than a bug. Most of the defense breaking people were seeing was just the saber clipping bug rearing its ugly head. All of Raven's attempts to balance Strong vs. the other styles could have been avoided if they'd just fixed the problem rather than dance around it as they did.

[Dark Begger]

lol but you upped it's power right? so it's all good now.

[Xenoeye]

No point being powerful if your dead by the end of the swing

[Raze]

If you think a little bit more about it, the random factor soleley represents the chances of something. You say "it is random if you break a defence by 17-3" .. I say : "you have a 3-17 chance to break a defence"

[ArtifeX]

Semantics. My argument is there should be no checks against a random number when a factor based on one or more players' input is available.

 

Originally posted by Raze

If you think a little bit more about it, the random factor soleley represents the chances of something. You say "it is random if you break a defence by 17-3" .. I say : "you have a 3-17 chance to break a defence"

[[-o-]]

This is not a criticism of your mod, I like Promod, it is fun and plays differently to the official game. However I think you are too harsh on 1.04.

 

You seem to be reasoning that absolutism and randomness eliminates skill and depth from a game. Following this through, games like Poker and Backgammon should require almost no skill at all. The kind of argument you are running is a natural (and superficial) thing to think, especially for Poker and Backgammon, and has cost many people their lives and money.

 

A type of argument I would find convincing makes use of data from actual gameplay, e.g. whether the game is repetitive and we expect to see some players winning more than others. You do indeed present such an argument, but I am not convinced. 1.04 games are varied and subtle, players use a variety of styles and tactics.

 

Promod places more emphasis on aim, this makes it play more like a deathmatch, which is perhaps what you want. 1.04 takes some of the skill out of blocking and, I claim, places it more in predicting your opponents moves and controlling the distance and position so as to manipulate the randomness in your favour, more like poker (this is does not entail that Promod does not do this, I suggest merely that it does not do it as much as 1.04).

 

Promod, on the other hand, provides the carnage that I think people are missing from 1.02, and has a cunning way of achieving it.

[Rad Blackrose]

No point being powerful if your dead by the end of the swing

 

That's why you don't use strong style in FFA matches, only in duels.

 

For once, LucasArts' manual is right on the money: ArtifeX's mod makes medium stance effective against groups of Jedi.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by [-o-]

This is not a criticism of your mod, I like Promod, it is fun and plays differently to the official game. However I think you are too harsh on 1.04.

 

You seem to be reasoning that absolutism and randomness eliminates skill and depth from a game. Following this through, games like Poker and Backgammon should require almost no skill at all. The kind of argument you are running is a natural (and superficial) thing to think, especially for Poker and Backgammon, and has cost many people their lives and money.

 

I think both of those games require quite a bit of strategy and outguessing your opponent. A more accurate comparison would be to playing a slot machine at a casino: that requires no skill whatsoever.

 

A type of argument I would find convincing makes use of data from actual gameplay, e.g. whether the game is repetitive and we expect to see some players winning more than others. You do indeed present such an argument, but I am not convinced. 1.04 games are varied and subtle, players use a variety of styles and tactics.

 

Randomized results never seem repetitive. But then, ProMod's results aren't either. Which is more suited to competition?

 

Promod places more emphasis on aim, this makes it play more like a deathmatch, which is perhaps what you want. 1.04 takes some of the skill out of blocking and, I claim, places it more in predicting your opponents moves and controlling the distance and position so as to manipulate the randomness in your favour, more like poker (this is does not entail that Promod does not do this, I suggest merely that it does not do it as much as 1.04).

 

Why deliberately remove any skill factor? It just makes the gameplay deeper if you leave it in.

 

Promod, on the other hand, provides the carnage that I think people are missing from 1.02, and has a cunning way of achieving it.

 

There's quite a bit of carnage in FFA, which is what has been running on most boxes lately. I'm changing over the official server to duelling tonight, or possibly CTF. You should hop in and check it out. The experience will most likely be very different.

[Floydian]

Is this a scientific study? :D

[Master Rooster]

I haven't posted for a while, but I came here briefly, and thought I'd comment. Whilst Artifex wries well, and is undoubtedly a good player, he missed one thing (I think - unless I skipped that part). Ducking swings can be used to bypass defences in heavy or medium stance. If you start a swing, you can duck in the middle of it and so change where you are attacking. By doing this, you can hit when they are standing up, and so to block it you have to either keep distance or duck as well.

 

This may not be true at very high levels, since I am only an intermediate player, but I have used it to great effect in duels.

[razorace]

I think both of those games require quite a bit of strategy and outguessing your opponent. A more accurate comparison would be to playing a slot machine at a casino: that requires no skill whatsoever.

If that is true, why do a lot of people claim that with "skill" you can avoid the "power" attacks. Sides, doesn't your Mod still rely on a % chance (a random number check) to determine block breaking and such?

[Rad Blackrose]

razor, it is a fixed interval that changes based on factors. That is the main basis of the CSC program. Range, current stance, attacking or blocking, all are factors. There is no such thing as a random number with CSC.

[Caster]

Originally posted by razorace

If that is true, why do a lot of people claim that with "skill" you can avoid the "power" attacks.

 

Because knowing where not to be and how to get to that place takes quick thinking, reflexive speed and intelligence.

 

Which are just some of the things that seperate the best players from others.

[razorace]

razor, it is a fixed interval that changes based on factors. That is the main basis of the CSC program. Range, current stance, attacking or blocking, all are factors. There is no such thing as a random number with CSC.

That's not true. Sure, the probablity of an event changes he probably is relying on the random number generator to determine the outcome of that probability. Otherwise, a event would ALWAYS occur under the same conditions, which doesn't seem to happen.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by razorace

If that is true, why do a lot of people claim that with "skill" you can avoid the "power" attacks. Sides, doesn't your Mod still rely on a % chance (a random number check) to determine block breaking and such?

 

Absolutely not. Blockbreaks are determined by an opposed check of each players CSC's with bonuses added or subtracted for current saber style and levels of Saber Offense/Defense.

 

There are no random number checks in ProMod

[massive195]

This has been said before and will be said now and possibly later, One cannot arbitratily assign skill to a way of fighting. Part of the enjoyment that comes out of this game is derived from peoples uniqe fighting styles. Bugs or not, when this game was programmed the attacks/defenses that were included were put there for a reason. ArtifeX's mod is an excellent change from the random saber breaks/locks and the like but regardless of what the code may state, Human input is what determines many of the factors in the game.

 

-Massive

[razorace]

Absolutely not. Blockbreaks are determined by an opposed check of each players CSC's with bonuses added or subtracted for current saber style and levels of Saber Offense/Defense.

I stand corrected.

[KnightHawk420]

Originally posted by Master Rooster

I haven't posted for a while, but I came here briefly, and thought I'd comment. Whilst Artifex wries well, and is undoubtedly a good player, he missed one thing (I think - unless I skipped that part). Ducking swings can be used to bypass defences in heavy or medium stance. If you start a swing, you can duck in the middle of it and so change where you are attacking. By doing this, you can hit when they are standing up, and so to block it you have to either keep distance or duck as well.

 

This may not be true at very high levels, since I am only an intermediate player, but I have used it to great effect in duels.

 

I have to say that is a good thing. with blue stance it's easier to deal with, but true enough.

[KnightHawk420]

Originally posted by massive195

This has been said before and will be said now and possibly later, One cannot arbitratily assign skill to a way of fighting. Part of the enjoyment that comes out of this game is derived from peoples uniqe fighting styles. Bugs or not, when this game was programmed the attacks/defenses that were included were put there for a reason. ArtifeX's mod is an excellent change from the random saber breaks/locks and the like but regardless of what the code may state, Human input is what determines many of the factors in the game.

 

-Massive

 

On that note I have found with this mod, players with different styles can be much more expressive. And the individual styles being more usefull.

[ArtifeX]

Yes, player input does influence the game, but not nearly enough in the official versions. There really are a staggering number of calls to random number generators in the code. Because of that, player skill is relegated to influencing the outcome rather than determining it. Mere influence over the flow of play is not enough for a game that is taken so seriously by so many.

 

Originally posted by massive195

This has been said before and will be said now and possibly later, One cannot arbitratily assign skill to a way of fighting. Part of the enjoyment that comes out of this game is derived from peoples uniqe fighting styles. Bugs or not, when this game was programmed the attacks/defenses that were included were put there for a reason. ArtifeX's mod is an excellent change from the random saber breaks/locks and the like but regardless of what the code may state, Human input is what determines many of the factors in the game.

 

-Massive

[Prime]

a game that is taken so seriously by so many

 

Therein lies the problem...

 

I haven't tried ProMod yet, so I can't comment, but it looks pretty neat. However, I think the effects of the use of random numbers is overstated. When I play a duel using 1.04, I seem to win a good majority of the time. And when I score a hit I feel as though it was because of something I did (even if, in reality, it was partially random). And when I lose to someone, I usually feel that it was because of something I did poorly to counter the other player (again, even if there was some randomness invovled). I may be in the minority, but when people lose in this game, do they blame it all on random number generators? And since both players are affected by random numbers, should this average out for the most part? And you can always make those hits really count by jacking the saber damage.

 

I guess I like playing this game because I get to use a lightsaber and clash with other lightsabers, do flips, saber locks with lots of sparks, and all the good stuff with being a jedi. For the most part, I'm not too concerned with the outcome. Sure, it's fun to win, but I'm not going to take it as a personal insult if I lose. I can always challenge the player again (and I will!). I guess I play the game for different reasons than other people, not that either side is right or wrong. Many people seem to play it as a sport and get very upset when they lose. They seem to take it as a personal attack and an injustice towards them. It seems a little sad to base a bit of ones self-esteem on a video game. Myself, I play basketball to release my competative fire, and play Jedi Outcast for some fun.

 

ArtifeX, in no way am I trying to attack you or your mod. I don't think I have ever played you online, so I don't really know what you are like at all. Your mod is really a cool thing that obviously took a lot of work, and that kind of effort should always be applauded to make the community grow, even if people choose not to use your mod.

 

I will have to try this mod, though, and maybe my views will change. But in the meantime I have a few concerns that maybe you can address. First, like I said, I like some of the visual aspects and fancy moves of this game, like spins and jumps and so on. From my impression of the mod, doing these kinds of things would leave me at a distinct disadvantage, because I am not directly facing my opponent. It seams to me that this would discourage people from doing some of the cooler stuff in the game. Is this the case? Also, in your zeal to see your mod flourish, remember that there will be people who do not want to play this mod, so don't try and take over ALL the servers. Leave some regular 1.04 servers for us less-competative, fun-lovin' types!

 

Anyway, good day to you, and keep up the great work!!

 

Cheers.