self killing in ctf

[massive195]

people need to stop complaining about this...

do you really want Raven to "fix" this like they "fixed" everything else.

 

Really, think about it

 

-Massive

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Glince

LOL. Sorry couldn't see any words when I typed so I got mad. Ok, now. Almost all of the ways to suicide I don't have a problem with. It's the Rage, Speed user who is on defense that makes this command an exploit. Rage is an awsome weapon but it's supposed to have a big penalty for it's use. Sorry if I misspelled something but I can't see my text for some reason.

 

Once again the advantage is at a teams OWN BASE. You shouldn't be hangin aroung your enemies base out in the open anyway!

 

Also for those of you that can't seem to beat those "evil Rage and speed users"

 

-using both powers drains your force down to ZERO. So simply hit the mind trick button and laugh as the idiot runs around without a target.

 

-using rage and speed makes it REALLY easy to jump over them and laugh

 

-Ever thought of HIDING and when at your enemies base.

 

-Evre thought of PLAYING SOME DAMN DEFENSE! If all you are fighting is respawners then you are wasting your time and hurting your team

 

last let me say, you all who whine about this are pathetic losers. I am sorry to go this route but with all the crap that has come from the patches the fact that you would ask RAVEN to nerf ANYTHING else is enough to make me hate you.

[Glince]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa there chief. I'm as much for bringing back 1.02 as you are, but what I meant in my post is a ctf game where I get the flag and two guys with the speed rage defense manuever run after me. The speed rage manuever is lousy for offense but great on defense when you exploit the suicide.

 

So what you'll say is, adapt then get away from them. Sometimes I do, but then they respawn after suiciding and do it again. Say they kill me when I get the flag. What do they do? Suicide. If you can't see that's an exploit there then there is something wrong.

 

I've read your post on the patches and agree with almost everything you've said. 1.02 was a great game, but it sure wasn't perfect. Other than the example I gave you I've got nothing wrong with killing yourself in the game.

 

I'm afraid of another Raven patch too, and I can take relative comfort in the fact that there will probably not be another one, but you've got to see the logic in my post. The best solution I think would be for those using speed rage combo on d to take the penalties for using rage instead of suiciding.

[TK_GEEZus!]

It's kind of funny that half the people that replied to Haze's initial message just kept arguing the same way he said they were.

Serious ctf players don't give a **** about points or kills they just look at the score and look at what they can do fo their team. /kill is a quicker way to do so. From what I've seen you people just don't like the pace of the game good then stay at the bottom of the ladder and play newbie clans that don't use the tactic either we don't give a ****. When I started out playing ctf which was sh it back when 1.02 was out I didn't use the bind, but i'd go into the console and type it out when i was out of ammo because there wasn't a point in keeping up a chase. I don't really understand why it's brought up as a problem now at all.

Also if it was removed the game would be MUCH slower (what the newbies want) and people would probably still use the tactic it's really not that hard to get killed by the enemy team or kill yourself with a weapon.

Oh and one thing I thought was funny was someone saying it's cowardly to kill yourself when you're out of force and ammo ooooooh real smart one there HEY GUYS I JUST FOUND THE ENEMY FLAG GUY AND I HAVE A ROCKET LAUNCHER READY HE DOESN'T SEE ME BUT I DONT THINK I SHOULD KILL HIM IT MIGHT BE DISHONORABLE. You're probably one of the same newbs that says **** like speed is gay in ctf you just run away with the flag like a chicken.

You dumb ass duelers should have never come to ctf you just don't understand it. NOTHING against dueling btw it does take skill, but do you see the ctf community coming to your games and bitching about the best players tactics on here nooooooo, because we're smart enough to either pickup on them or realize the gametype isn't for us.

[Aoshi]

lol guys, i've long abandoned hope of educating these idiots. now i know where those morons that chase you around swinging their saber and then try to lightning spam you come from. then when you kill them one way or another they cry and bitch about how it was cheap and dishonorable and unjedilike or when you just blow by them they call you a coward for not 'standing and fighting like a man' let me just take 10 seconds to say something to these people.... you're morons who cant figure out how to play ctf... so what's the best solution? DONT PLAY IT. it really is amazing the true level of ignorance found on these forums.

 

it's also kinda hypocritical cause most of these people probably have no problem lying about their degrees or job experience on their resumes, hours at work in hopes of getting more money, or doing other things like cheating on exams, insulting people behind their backs, stealing in one way or another, ect. and then they come onto the game and expect 'honerble jedeye conbat' and call other people dishonorable and say things like 'this game is a reflection of reality how you act in this game is how you act in real life.' that's complete and utter bull and if you've never done anything cowardly, insulting, or unlawful then you have a right to call me dishonorable for using 'exploits' such as /kill because you're either Jesus or an angel and btw i'm sorry for all my sins can i please come to heaven now?

[Luc Solar]

Fine.

 

It seems that none of you people have read any of the posts that others have made, you just pop up, throw a few insults and say something about how you assume (!!!) "we" play and what CTF is all about. *yawn*

 

It makes you look a bit stupid if you don't take the time to read through the posts that you are replying to.

 

I will not repeat myself anymore. You don't want to discuss the subject, you just want to keep the flame-war going.

[DSbr-HaZe]

haha, are we in a court of law? how i present my arguement doesnt mean anything. why? because even if i presented it in a nice way all u would say is COWARD FIGHT LIKE JEDI MASTAR. like geezus said, we dont go into duel servers and whine about dfa(which i cant do lol, but i have only bothered dueling like 2 or 3 times). we either learn it, or we dont play sabers. so dont whine about ctf tactics if u consider urslef a dueler. and if u play ctf religiously, u will just lose. its a game, have fun with it instead of whining so much about "Exploits". there arent jk2 aimbots/wallhacks around so nobody is cheating in a way that ruins the game. if u think /kill ruins the game, dont play ctf.

[=NCG=Merlyn]

Im just gonna post one more out here for you all, saw a post on how the problem now is the D using /kill when Rage runs out. Rage is very easily stopped by someone who just pulls the weapons out of there hands peps. But in all of these post nobody has mentioned that. How the crap are they gonna kill you with rage/speed if they have no faggin weapons!!!

 

Its really that easy saberists.

[DSbr-HaZe]

no because using force pull in that way would be exploiting its uses and therefore unjedilike

[Luc Solar]

See?

 

Desperately avoiding the issue and trying to keep the flames going..

 

You know what is the easiest way to tell when someone has a weak case?

 

>>> all they do is flame. Flamety-flame with a few comments about something that has nothing to do with the subject.

 

Really, boys, I thought you could do better..

[=NCG=Merlyn]

Avoiding the issue? How is that?

Your complaining about /kill in different cases, i.e., well ragers use it and its unfair or its disgraceful or whatever else there is to whine about. Your just resorting to what little ground you have to stand on calling us flamers.

Make some sense when you post man....

[Garath]

Mr. Solar.. I can do better..

 

I'll comment on the Rage/speed issue..

 

its a moot point.. why you ask?

 

Because if the rage/speed defense man has NOT killed the capper by the time rage/speed wears off then the capper has capped.

 

Rager chases the capper halfway across the board - rage wears off, he kills himself, rage and speed back at his base isn't going to help him at all.. unless the capper is just strolling back to his base. You may say - but the capper is out of force by now, the rager can catch up before the cap. Any capper worth his/her salt will have already capped by the time the rager can even catch up.. Force power doesn't take long to get back that half you need for speed. In a decent team its even easier because you get an energize midfield.

 

The only advantage killing yourself on D gets you is it prepares you for the next wave quicker.

 

And since the cappers are killing themselves to prepare the next wave quicker, its all a write off. Just ups the pace of the match.

 

Luc, I'll say that I came in on the thread(s) late, but since I've come on the thread(s) I haven't heard a single constructive thing from you either. I read back through the posts and I felt that my inital post was general enough to address most of your arguements as well as those from the other more outspoken people against /kill. I'm afraid I'm not going to go back 7 pages and address the issues point by point.. But I'll welcome debating from here point to point.

[WSBN-MeBaD]

Well, I'd like the popup saying you died, but the point is that competition, the points mean nothing without being TEAM points. From the casters point of view, I try to mention the server point leader but it really dosen't make a difference. Score is only what the TEAM is doing. Someone should make a TWL competition mod then let it flare up!

[Luc Solar]

The issue is not :

 

noob / leet / whining / sabers / duels / not knowing what CTF means / playing competetively / being in a clan / being high up on ladders / hating guns etc. etc. etc.

 

 

The only question here is this simple:

 

Is using "/kill" an exploit?

 

Plain and simple.

 

You say it isn't, because

 

* "others are doing it too"

* "everyone can do it"

 

(Yes, everyone can also use scripts, cheats or go outside and throw a rock at someone. It has no relevance. It does not make it any more right or wrong.)

 

* "it has advantages"

* "you need to do it to win"

 

(Yes, that's the problem. Others are doing it and they have the egde if you don't do it too. This has no relevance considering the issue.)

 

Again, the issue is: Is using "/kill" an exploit?

 

I say yes.

 

We all know the definition of the term "exploit" >>> To make use of selfishly or unethically

 

Are you saying that something that is unethical and selfish is great?

 

Someone said on this thread:

 

"- The time for you to fall to your death is part of normal game dynamics. You running out of force power is part of the game. You being a 1HP, moving slow as crap is the negative effect of Dark Rage...

 

You boneheads really think that /kill was put in the game to your advantage to get past this?"

 

 

Again, using "/kill" to gain an advantage is such a clear exloit, that I have a hard time trying to come up with any example that could clear up the concept of "exploiting" more than the one that we are discussing.

 

Go ahead and say: "We don't give a ****. We win using this technique, that's all that matters."

 

But stop acting like like "/kill" is not an exploit. You use it, you win. If you have no problem with that, fine. Nothing I can do about it.

[=NCG=Merlyn]

 

Exactly MeBad but some are just reluctant to understand that for some reason.

 

BAN THE /KILL buwa hahahahahahaa

[Luc Solar]

I just want to add one thing:

 

People complaining about rage/speed/guns/whatever are n00bs who should STFU. It's a strat period

 

(that felt kinda nice.. )

 

Exploits are another thing altogether.

[Garath]

We all know the definition of the term "exploit" >>> To make use of selfishly or unethically

 

Ok.. your concern is it is an exploit..

 

2 possible definitions of exploit..

 

1) the one you illustrated above

2) "To employ to the greatest possible advantage"

 

Yes, its exploiting because we are using it to the greatest possible advantage.. No it is not to be made use of selfishly because everyone has full access to it..

 

Now ethically...

 

definitions of ethics

 

"the principles of right and wrong that are accepted by an individual or a social group"

 

"a system of principles governing morality and acceptable conduct"

 

I feel those are the two definitions that apply here..

 

As far as number 2 is concerned, as of right now it IS considered acceptable conduct.. Its accepted in the competition ladders and the fact that it IS so widely used means its accepted by a social group.

 

Now there are individuals that disagree with the majority and the competitive rules of conduct and feel that it is unethical, but without any sort of governing body dictating the acceptable conduct it is foolish to claim that it is ethically wrong, because with no central body, majority rules. And it is accepted by the majority.

 

If you say to me that /kill was not intended for its current use, then I'll disagree. Unless Raven publically announces its intentions for /kill, then we are only assuming. The one thing we don't have to assume is that /kill is for killing yourself, and there is nothing that anyone is doing with /kill that is deviating from that intention.

 

Its also nearly impossible to draw a parallel because implying that this is a loophole that is being exploited indicates that there is a set of rules that are being exploited, and there are no rules for CTF short of those set forth by the major ladders.

 

Ethics are a weak leg to stand on. It does not give credence to your arguements. Without a governing body, ethics are in the eye of the beholder.

 

So show me a governing body that disagrees with me, or find another argument that doesn't involve your personal ethics.

 

I've already illustrated how /kill makes the game more fun, and myself and many others have illustrated the strategic element involved that makes it a team oriented tactic (and since CTF is a team game I feel it has weight)

 

I apologize for the broken feel of the post, I'm on my lunchbreak and don't have alot of time so typing fast..

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Garath

2 possible definitions of exploit..

 

1) the one you illustrated above

2) "To employ to the greatest possible advantage"

 

Yes, its exploiting because we are using it to the greatest possible advantage.. No it is not to be made use of selfishly because everyone has full access to it..

 

Needless to say that I was talking about "exploiting" in the meaning I mentioned first

 

Now ethically...

 

definitions of ethics

 

"the principles of right and wrong that are accepted by an individual or a social group"

 

You're absolutely right. A group can play by it's own rules. If they all agree that using grip is gh3y and unethical, fine.

 

It seems, however, that not all are agreeing on "/kill. Otherwise I doubt we'd be having this argument.

 

On the other hand: even though castrating women is something that certain people agree on, it doesn't mean that I couldn't oppose it.

>> I think using cheats is lame even though all agree on using them. But it's not Wrong...not unless you start cheating on people who play fair.

 

At the moment I think suiciders are exploiting a command in a way that Raven did not foresee. They screwed up, you win games. No, you're not breaking the rules, but you are imho playing lame.

 

I doubt taking out "/kill" would turn CTF into a gametype where strategy doesn't matter at all anymore. Right?

 

 

If you say to me that /kill was not intended for its current use, then I'll disagree. Unless Raven publically announces its intentions for /kill, then we are only assuming.

 

Well, I'd say you're in denial. I think it's clear that "/kill" was not meant to be used as a loophole to negate the harmful effects of wasting force or ammo / rage / bad positioning / falling off ledges.

 

Can I prove this? Nope. But I'm pretty sure I'm right.

 

 

I apologize for the broken feel of the post, I'm on my lunchbreak and don't have alot of time so typing fast..

 

Uh....you people should take more lunchbreaks. Really. (and I mean that as an compliment. )

 

Oh well..

[Garath]

Some good points, and I'll be lying if I didn't say that I understand where you are coming from ... however let's roll the list

 

On the other hand: even though castrating women is something that certain people agree on, it doesn't mean that I couldn't oppose it.

 

.....

 

At the moment I think suiciders are exploiting a command in a way that Raven did not foresee. They screwed up, you win games. No, you're not breaking the rules, but you are imho playing lame.

 

Here's where it all comes into perspective.. Not sure if you are American, but I used to play alot of American Football, and I enjoy watching it and I think there is a parallel I can draw on here..

 

A common used tactic if you are winning near the end of the game is to waste your 'downs' by eating up the alotted time limit thus letting the gameclock run down so your opponent has no opportunity to recover on the scoreboard.. IMO that is lame and takes away from the competitive spirit and I can voice that all I want, but I can't say that doing that is UNETHICAL if that's a commonly used strategy. Its accepted by the NFL (the competitive league that dictates the rules).

 

Now take that same example when I'm playing a football game on the PS2 with my roommate, if I do that to him, he screams LAME and gets mad at me for not giving him the opportunity to score. He argues that he doesn't do it to me and I've had quite a few last minute comebacks that I don't allow him to get. Now this is a casual game .. not competitive in the traditional sense of the word. Who is right? Me or him? And after answering, ask yourself WHY. It comes down to personal ethics.

 

I doubt taking out "/kill" would turn CTF into a gametype where strategy doesn't matter at all anymore. Right?

 

No .. it wouldn't.. any more than taking out speed would render CTF a strategicless (mm.. nasty word) gametype. But it would slow down the pace and make the game competitively boring.

 

Well, I'd say you're in denial. I think it's clear that "/kill" was not meant to be used as a loophole to negate the harmful effects of wasting force or ammo / rage / bad positioning / falling off ledges.

 

Can I prove this? Nope. But I'm pretty sure I'm right.

 

You are missing the point. I'm sure if I crack out a history book on ANY competitive team game, video game, RL, etc. I will find strategies that were not originally implied by the designers of said sport. Some (like my football example) rub people the wrong way, but they are effective techiques for winning and for improving aspects of your game where TIME is critical. You might as well say Raven didn't put Mind Trick in the game to be used as a defensive tool, or put bind in for multi-variable teamsay macros, or for taunting your opponent with says during a duel, or for changing your forcepowers just before a death. Its nearly impossible to predetermine the techniques that people will adapt to improve their game with the availible tools.

 

Like I said, I truly understand your perspective, but /kill is not this awe inspiring exploit that gives people an unfair advantage, it improves your team in one of the aspects of the game - TIME.

 

If /kill was gone, we would find ways to kill ourselves anyways and continue to hold this 'advantage' because it is a GOOD strategy.

[=NCG=Merlyn]

We getting in to ethical battles here? Because a set group of people think /kill is an exploit?

This is a tad extreme I would think because not only are you thinking about this a tad much, your not really doing any good.

 

There are pros and cons to this as there are in every debate and I think alot of them have already been mentioned.

/kill is not a exploit, its a strategic element of the game. Did Raven mean for this to be used? Who cares??? Its used, period.

Lets not get in to some kind of moral or ethical debate on this because that would require alot of paitence, understanding, thought process, etc.

 

I dont play this game to debate my own personal morals or ethic beliefs with anyone. I play it to have fun, not THINK like Im in grad school. Granted there are good points that have been posted about the football "downing" etc. But man my head hurts after a while.

 

Either you use /kill or not. I dont really care. I use it, and its effective for me. If you dont want to take advantage of some "game knowledge" passed to you then dont. But dont harrass others for using it and complain to Raven because you think its not meant to be used.

 

[TK-Hamburglar]

Originally posted by Psychopomps

You boneheads really think that /kill was put in the game to your advantage to get past this? Think again, you've got a lot to learn. And for all of those who depend on it, I can't wait until it's soon patched or banned from most ladders. So keep living by it....

 

If it is removed, we will adapt. We have already learned to adapt to its existance and will learn adapt without it.

[Glince]

You've said it better than I ever could Luc. Nicely done.

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by TK-Hamburglar

 

If it is removed, we will adapt. We have already learned to adapt to its existance and will learn adapt without it.

 

I don't think the whiners know what adapt means. After all they seem to rely on Raven to make sure they never have to adapt. They just get Raven to remove what ever gives them problems.

 

Besides this \kill thing has never been a problem for CTF teams that are any good. I only see average players whine about it. I guess they need something to blame for the fact that they can't climb the ladder as high as they would like.

 

For you whiners:

 

Adapt: \A*dapt"\ to adjust; for a new use

 

Learn it, live it, love it!

[AOL User]

Adapt to using /kill as a tactic? What: so my force power can instantly regenerate each time I suicide? To have the game really gravitate around force powers from the use of the suicide bind takes away from the other aspects of FPS CTF. Its not a "tactic" -its an excuse not to use tactics. I thought JK2 CTF was great with force powers, but /kill makes it ridiculous.

[AOL User]

Should I adapt to using /kill as a tactic? What: so my force power can instantly regenerate each time I suicide? To have the game really gravitate around force powers from the use of the suicide bind takes away from the other aspects of FPS CTF. Its not a "tactic" -its an excuse not to use tactics. I thought JK2 CTF was great with force powers, but /kill makes it ridiculous.

In that letter I think calling scripts "cheats" was more of an oversight. For it only refers to the one the made force pull unblockable. Since this was deliberately patched out of the game, yes I think it is safe to say that this script was infact a cheat. On the OGL and TWL ladders suiciding is legal. I do believe the point of the letter was to have the /kill command brought down to the same level as that script. Even though it has not been altered or altogether patched out of the game. (And I dreadfully hope it should otherwise CTF I think is ridiculous.) That it should be viewed as an unpatched cheat.

Now it can be said that people complaining for new patches are ruining the game. However, I choose the same argument. That not patching or altering the /kill command is ruinining the game. Just as I feel that script was ruining the game.