CHURCH

[Guest ForeShadow]

Time to edit now. Look below for the real post...

 

[- FORESHADOW -]

 

[This message has been edited by ForeShadow (edited May 10, 2000).]

[Guest ForeShadow]

Okay, I know this is an old, old, topic and the arguement is well-aged and exhausted over time, but this whole Rho debacle has the JPB at a standstill, and I need something to do.

 

First off, do not ever, ever, EVER compare any relevance between Christianity or religion in general to Star Wars. It's bad enough Episode I tainted the series with its childish idiocy.

 

Secondly, I am going to get into MY viewpoints on religion now. This has to do with ALL religions, but because Christianity is the main topic within this topic, and because Christianity is the most loud and vague of all religions, I will attack Christianity with my points. So now that that is dispensed with, let us begin. I was born into Christianity, but much like the Matrix, I was dragged out of "dreamworld" before it took too mighty a toll on my mind. Now that I view Christianity from a third person perspective, let me tell you what I see. I see a religion trying to coo you with honeyed words ... "wait, just wait, if you do everything in your life good and nothing bad like the f**k ups God made you out to be, then you'll end up in the 'good place' - Heaven". So what is heaven? What can you define heaven to be? Well, there is the "Promised Land" which varies from religion to religion, but most of them point their fingers at Jerusalem just because ol' Christie lived there/born there, whatever the hell it was. And then there is the bible's explanation... a "big light in the sky, more bright then you would ever believe, for that is the light of God" isn't the bullsh*t they put in there? Something along those lines, at least. I'm not quoting here because I don't have a Bible around and don't need one, either. So if you don't believe in god, when Zion comes along and lands on Earth like some spaceship, will the eyes of non-believes burn out their sockets because it's so bright? Just a question. So, Christians before me, you believe in God, right? Of course you do? Can you prove it other then rambling on about "I see the light! The light, the light!" Can you? Not really. Pick up a staff my friend, strike the water, and shout into the sky "Part the seas, God! I believe in you!!! I BELIEVE!!" Will the water part? No. Why not? Moses believed in God. The water parted for him. Well, the next thing you Christians will say is "but Moses was CHOSEN by GOD to do HIS work!" So... why does God not choose people to do his work now? Sure, you have your local church pastors, but do you see them climbing mountains to retrieve stone tablets or parting seas so your congregation can traverse between two lands? I think not. So where have all the miracles gone? Into Nestle's Miracles and Cream? I don't know. You believe in "God" and he talks to you every day in your prayers, right? So can you tell ME why there is no miracles? No water-walking, man-ressurecting, disease-curing miracles that were commonplace in the Bible? Can you truly give me a good reason why there isn't any of that today? NO. Why not? Because there is no God. But can Christians accept that fact? NO! Why is Christianity - why is RELIGION, around? I can answer that one for you. Religion is nothing more then a facade... it is a curtain to veil one's views on everyday life. Religion is simply a way to give us poor humans belief that there is really some light at then end of the tunnel and that everything is going to be alright. Yet there is a sick twist. While religion is built to guide people - to believe there is something more at the end when there really is not, it restricts the freedoms we were given at birth. There are certain rules you must abide by in every religion: "Don't eat pork", "Don't steal, kill, etc etc". So when religion was made as a sweet dream it turns out to be nothing more then a nightmare. Religion enslaves you in a false belief for something that isn't true, making you honestly believe you'll end up in heaven when all you do is simply die. If you ask me the Matrix has more religious referances then Star Wars. So, Christians before me, give me a factual reason that God exists. What is that you say? You can't? Oh... because God exists in heaven, and there is NO factual evidence here on Earth that he exists, so we must simply BELIEVE he is "REAL" so we can go to the "nice place" when we die. Right. Come on, Christians! Tell me one good reason you believe in God other then the fact that if you do, you might have a shot at heavenly eligibility. YOU CANNOT TELL ME ANYTHING OTHER THEN THAT BECAUSE THAT IS THE BASIS OF CHRISTIANITY AND THAT IS WHY YOU BELIEVE IN THE FIRST PLACE. So because you have no real reason for believing, you say nothing but simple-minded bullsh*t like this topic's initial post and get one-sentance responses like "You said it, my Christian brother" and other such crap. You can not bring yourself to find one scrap of good reason why you believe, because there is no "WHY" - you just do. And you are so narrowminded to listen to anyone else's opinion because "you are under the divine light", because "you are a disciple of GOD; a believer", because "you are a chosen one". So part the seas, chosen one. Part them for me and show me -show the world- that God exists. Call meteors down from the sky to hit a precise spot in the earth at a precise time and show them to me. Turn a stick into a cobra. Do SOMETHING miraculous like the tales they tell in the Bible. Can't do it? Don't sweat it, neither can I. Wanna know why? Christianity is nothing, God doesn't exist, and religion is bullsh*t.

 

And my viewpoints on the Evolution Theory is this: do you actually think I originated as a fish? Or a monkey? Or a fish that turned into a monkey? Come on... you gotta give me some real proof on that. Although the evolution theory is more believable, it's still far-fetched.

 

As for me, I don't really give a damn where I came from or where I am going, all I know is that I am here know and I am going to have FUN for the little while I am alive on this Earth. That is all.

 

[- FORESHADOW -]

[Guest quite-gone gin]

What a friend I’ve found

Closer than a brother

I have felt your touch

More intimate than lovers

 

Jesus, Jesus

Jesus friend forever

 

What a hope I’ve found

More faithful than a mother

It would break my heart

To ever lose each other

 

[Guest ShadeShifter]

I'm sorry, Foreshadow, that you were missinformed, but you CAN'T BE BORN A CHRISTIAN. You become a Christian when you accept Christ as your savior. Call it a coincidence, but the same arguments that you brought up about not seeing miraculous events happen today, were used by someone in the Bible. Jesus's response was that if you can't believe that they happend then, you won't believe it when they happen now.

 

....and Jesus did live, that is HISTORICAL FACT.

 

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[This message has been edited by ShadeShifter (edited May 10, 2000).]

[Guest Ikhnaton]

Foreshadow,

First off, do not ever, ever, EVER compare any relevance between Christianity or religion in general to Star Wars.

and can you provide a good reason for us not to? It is quite obvious to anyone who believes in a God that there are allegories to be seen in SW. To deny them is ignorance.

 

Why are there no great signs like there were in the bible? I will tell you why. Because it would require no faith if we had signs such as those. If Jesus came and appeared to the whole world, there would be no need of faith, because there would be no doubt in anyone's mind that he existed. yet Jesus wants just that, our faith, in order to reach him.

 

Another reason why there are no big signs is that when those signs were performed it was mainly out of dire need or to help or teach someone. If I ent up to a lake and told it to part so I could walk through it, what good is that? I am serving self, and not serving God. Just as a Jedi couldn't or shouldn't use the Force to get a beer from the fridge, I couldnt' call upon God to do signs like that to serve myself.

 

Nowadays, there are millions of Christians providing witness to others. They witness through their actions of love, not through theatrics. Jesus wants us to seek him, to love him, not to wait for him to come to us and give us all the proof we need so that we don't have to do any work.

 

Why do I believe in God? Because his law of love makes sense. I have reasoned logically as to the existence of God and I think it takes more faith (or stupidity, whatever you want to call it) to believe in things like the big bang or evolution than to believe in God. And I'd rather not have to face the consequences of not believing in God if it turns out he does exist. It just makes more sense.

 

I look at the posts of the atheists in this and other threads, and they seem to just be filled with so much hatred, whereas most of the Christians are happy and loving. Tell you anything? Reminds me of the difference between Jedi and Sith.

 

What proof do you have that there is no afterlife? no God? Because you haven't seen him? Come on... I've never seen an atom, but people tell me they exist. I'm never seen physical gravity, but i can tell it exists. I've never seen my stomach, but i know it exists. Most people never see the termites in their house before it starts crumbling, yet they exist. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

If you want signs and tricks, go see a magician. God not at your beckon call to perform signs and wonders for you. Your Christian brethren are there to give witness to you. You have evidence enough. You don't need signs and wonders.

 

You need to study up more on Christianity, because you have got the total wrong idea about everything you just posted (twice). I'd worry about your friends, too, who would "convince" you that there is no God.

 

Your idea of freedom is in fact slavery, because you are a slave to your passions. true freedom is following God's laws. Life has absolutely no purpose is there is no afterlife. Since we are rational and sentient beings, there must be a purpose, a greater scheme.

 

Let go of your hate and come home to God.

[Guest quite-gone gin]

Ahh...he has learned much but has yet to master the concept of posting a message only once!!! Alas!

 

Sorry, Shadeshifter, but that's exactly why Christians have turned them off from Christ. We argue over things like "you need to be born again" and "you can't be born again because you get it all when you receive Christ the first time." We stick to our guns with the doctrines of our denominations, fight other Christians who disagree and wonder why people look at Christianity and say "No thank you!"

 

Foreshadow and Overshadow - good on ya mates! you SHOULD be able to see those miracles today, ordinary men should part lakes with sticks, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, etc. Because there's nothing I've read into the Bible that said there shouldn't be that going on. In fact, it should be happening moreso because God promised to one day to pour out his spirit on all flesh (mankind, regardless of race, gender, etc) and since the Resurrection and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit is more readily available to God's people than any other time before.

 

You know why you don't see the hand of God moving through his people so readily like that - becasue we Christians (yes, I include myself here) are either too CHICKEN to try it(come on, how easy is it to walk up to a deaf person at Magic Mountain and ask to pary for his healing-well I and my friends did and he wasn't healed!...but at least we tried!), too endoctrinated against the workings of the Holy Spirit, or too caught up in our secret areas of sin and too afraid to be caught! And for that, non-Christians, I apologize!

 

Jesus had no problem healing people, no problem taking the TIME to minister to them, God had no problem backing him up...Christians are supposed continue the work the Jesus did...and we fail miserably! I bet if "ministers" in churches, and Christians in general, went around loving minstering the way Jesus did...people would have no problem lining up to come to church. If hungry people could go to church to get help, sick people to be made well, blind to see, deaf to hear, homeless to find shelter, bitter to find peace...WAKE UP CHURCH...IF WE DON'T PUT OUR FAITH TO USE IN PRACTICAL WAYS FOR THE "LOST", THEY'LL NOT WANT TO BE FOUND. YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN A MEASURE OF FAITH, A SUBSTANCE, TO USE FOR MORE THAN JUST YOUR OWN JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION! USE IT TO DO WHAT JESUS WOULD DO AND WHAT HE DID - WE MIGHT AS WELL TRY IT BECAUSE I BET WE'LL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR NOT USING IT.

 

(Sorry to shout, but it's true - hypocrisy has made the chruch reek, and the world sees right through it...let's risk everything and see if we can give them what the Bible says they should have. BTW, those miracles do happen these days, you just have to find the Christians who believe and move in them! GO FOR IT, CHRISTIANS. YOU'LL TAKE A LEAP OF FAITH IN JPB, TAKE ONE WITH YOUR CHRISTIANITY...DON'T STOP SHORT OF EVERYTHIGN YOU'VE BEEN TAKEN A HOLD OF FOR!)

[Master Qui-Gon]

<font face="Arial"><font color="white">

Nowadays, there are millions of Christians providing witness to others.

 

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">I don't care if ten million people all convinced themselves that Coke was Pepsi, fed off each other's assurances and then told me that Coke was Pepsi. I wouldn't believe or disbelieve that Coke was Pepsi without seeing something with my eyes, not everyone else's.

 

Similarly, if half the world's population claimed that the Earth's core was made of banana fruitcake, I would not assume it was true just because a lot of other people said it was.

 

<font face="Arial"><font color="white">

Life has absolutely no purpose is there is no afterlife. Since we are rational and sentient beings, there must be a purpose, a greater scheme.

 

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">Yeah, but what if you're wrong? What if there is no higher purpose and you've wasted the precious little time you've had?

 

<font face="Arial"><font color="white">

And I'd rather not have to face the consequences of not believing in God if it turns out he does exist.

 

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">If God is everything you say he is, he will not persecute those who do not believe in him. That is what a tyrant would do. Instead, he would judge a person by how good he or she was/is. Christianity is supposed to be based on forgiveness; people seem to forget this. You do not have to believe in God to be a good person.

 

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Master Qui-Gon, Jedi Master

Always remember, your focus determines your reality.

[Guest Acid_Rain327]

Hoookaaay, time for Acid to throw another two cents in...

 

First of all, there are similarities between Star Wars and the Bible - they're both fantasy!!

Sure, they called Anakin the chosen one, and he was said to have been conceived by midichlorians, just as Jesus had been created by god. So? At least Anakin's conception makes at least SOME scientific sense. It's more believable than some devine being making a virgin pregnant, against her will and knowing - by the way, does that sound sinful to anyone else?

 

Can you all stop perverting this wonderful saga by saying someone ripped off a religion?! Geez, the same people who started the whole "Lucas ripped off the Bible!" were the same people who declaired Jar Jar was both homosexual and a racist icon. Everyone grow the hell up, please.

 

Second, we athiests are unhappy and Sith-like? Maybe you've gotten the wrong impression. Perhaps we're more "loving and happy" than you are. We're free to live our lives, and say what we feel without fear of retributuon, or eternal damnation. We're not constricted by religion, so we feel comfortable saying what we feel, and we don't

have to live our lives justifying a religion that cannot be proven.

 

The Jedi exist with the Force, and coincide with it - they also have the ability to choose their own destiny. They're not controlled by God, and they don't go to hell if they don't follow the Jedi Code. Bad comparrison if you ask me.

 

We athiests aren't unhappy, we're just more able to express our emotions and thoughts.

 

Next, I too agree that the bible was written by man, for the sole purpose of keeping people in line. Back then, there were very unstable governments, all kinds of crazy crap going on, so people made up these tales to keep people from running a muck and doing whatever they want. "Obey the bible or go to hell!" - pretty scary stuff for *primative* civiliations.

But today, we're far from primative, at least by historical standards. Anyone been through an operation? Do you believe that God helped you through it, or are you logical and thank goodness for the doctor's know-how and the advancements science has made?

 

One above stated: "Why are there no great signs like there were in the bible? I will tell you why. Because it would require no faith if we had signs such as those. If Jesus came and appeared to the whole world, there would be no need of faith, because there would be no doubt in anyone's mind that he existed."

 

Not how I see it - those great signs don't exist now, because they never existed at all. If there is a God, why the hell did he create us to worship him? Is God that arrogant? He has infinite power, so he creates an entire universe to worship him - if that is in fact true, what kind of being is THAT to worship?

 

Why the hell doesn't he show us these miracles today, to end discussions like this, end all the religious wars and killing?

 

Oh, he wants us to have faith in him...!

 

Forget that - forget faith. I want peace and health for this planet. Guess God thinks people worshiping him is more important than the millions of lives he throws away each minute.

 

"Another reason why there are no big signs is that when those signs were performed it was mainly out of dire need or to help or teach someone."

 

HELLO! According to you all, we athiests are in dire need of being taugh the ways of God! The STORIES of people working miracles were implemented in CREATING this religion to keep people in line.

 

So, if this relgion is all true, then show me a damn miracle, and teach me!

 

I know you're going to say: "God created the Bible so that WE can teach others about our God, and his son and our savior, Jesus Christ."

 

No offense, but you know what? If this is the case, then you've failed God. This discussion has in no way effected the beliefs of the athiests - in fact, it's drawn me farther away from God.

 

You're only defense in any of these arguements is your faith. We've given cold, hard facts, logic, and we've shown you dozens of hypocracies and contradictions in your religion, and all you can say in defense is "faith". How do we have faith in something that creates a universe to worship it, is reckless with innocent lives, and prevents people from living full lives?

 

"Your idea of freedom is in fact slavery, because you are a slave to your passions. true freedom is following God's laws."

 

No, you're wrong. The very fact that our passions are *OUR* passions is the very essence of being free. We're not living under the ideals of some religion - we live life for OURSELVES. We're not oppressed by laws and ethics forced on us by religion or God.

Want to argue that point? Fine - let me elaborate.

 

The Bible states that slavery is a good thing - people believed that certain races were placed here by God to serve them. How screwed up is that?

 

Next, my aunt and uncle are active members of the Church of Jesus Christ - a church I once attended out of curiosity.

Because of what the Bible says, my aunt has no say in decisions; my uncle is the power of the household, because of what the Bible states. She has to call him at work to get permission to CHECK THE MAIL, because of what your religion and Bible say.

 

Is this freedom? If you just answered yes, you are blind. Truly blind.

 

"Let go of your hate and come home to God."

 

Open your eyes and live life.

Think for yourself.

Oh, and stop being a religious fascist, while you're at it.

 

 

 

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<a onMouseover="alert('Away put your mouse, or Medieval I will get! Hmm!')"> </a>

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 10, 2000).]

[Guest Rogue_Jedi]

How can a person, atheist, agnostic, or otherwise, simply state without a shadow of doubt that God does not exist? How many billion people on this planet believe in a supreme being? Are they all wrong? Maybe they've all been brain-washed by millenia of propaganda. I can't prove to you God exists. The clergy of any denomination of any religion can't prove it beyond any doubt either. I believe God exists. I just can't believe all of everything is just some kind of cosmic coincidence.

 

 

 

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"May the Force be with You"

[Guest ForeShadow]

Time to edit again. The ideas and points on this post were already used by OverShadow and Acid. Sooo... just read theirs, as they were constructed much better then this one was. Anyhow, I've got my personal points and opinions stated up already. I'm sticking to them, no matter how high your "faith" for God is. So no matter how hard you argue about your religion, it's still all bullsh*t to me. Out.

 

[- FORESHADOW -]

 

[This message has been edited by ForeShadow (edited May 10, 2000).]

[Guest Rogue_Jedi]

Not all Christians believe evolution is just theory. Evolution is a fact of nature. The human race has evolved and continues to do so. I will not give God the credit for our achievements and I also will not blame God for the horrors we as a species have brought into existence.

 

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"May the Force be with You"

[Guest jedihorn1]

Originally posted by OverShadow:

If you want proof that (most) Christians are ignorant, take this in. An Athiest will accept all sides of a religious arguement. (most) Christians absolutely refuse to consider for one instant that God does not exist. "Why?" you might ask? Because keeping an open mind let's you make your own choices. And we all know how free you are to make your own choices when you're Christian. (I've been Christian. Studied as a Christian. Raised and punished as a Christian. But I've got a 200+ IQ and that allowed me to realize it was a bunch of bull after I turned 10.)

 

My friend, I am far from ignorant. I used to be an athiest. I wasn't raised in a Christian home nor did I know anything about religion. And as far as points against Christianity, I had arguments that made those you have been posting look like you actually were 10. I have litteraly been in a public debate against Christians, one of whome was a Paastors daughter, and tore them to shreds. I don't say this because I am proud, because I was wrong, but I say it to make a point. You call me closed minded because I will not give ground that there is no God. I'm not being closed minded or ignorent, because I know there is a God, It has been proven to me. What would be ignorent is for me to claim there is no God, or that the possibility exists that there is no God when I know that it isn't true. The fact remains, that you will believe what you choose, and in fact you are the most closed minded of all. You say it gives you freedom but all it really does is blind you. You say we are closed minded because we can't look from all sides.

1. How the heck are you looking at it from all sides if you say there isn't a God? You are doing the same thing we are, by saying the opposite. So if we are closed minded for saying there is a God, you are just as closed minded for saying there isn't. That is just plain logic( that I am sure your 200+ IQ can understand). And if you concied that there is a possibility that there is a God, then, yes, you would be open minded, but you would no longer be an athiest, for athiests, by definition, does not believe in God. So which is it? Are you a closed minded Athiest, or someone who is not positive they know what is the truth? If you continue to claim to be an Athiest, then that makes you just as closed minded as Christians.

2. You shouldn't make the claim that all Christians are ignorent, automaticaly assuming that we are all the same and have the same experience/background, because quite frankley, that makes you look just as ignorent as we may appear. There is nothing that you could say that I probably havent already thought of my friend. I too was like you, but I found the truth. So, if I were you, I would choose what I say a little more wisley, because you don't know jack about what everyone else has been through.

 

 

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Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html

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There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code

[Guest jedihorn1]

I am glad you feel that way Rho. I hope you do find the truth. BTW,To say I was an athiest isn't correct (I know I wasn't clear). I believed in God, kinda, I wasn't sure. I was seeking the truth, and in an essence I had my own religion.

 

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Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html

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There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code

[Guest Darth Dred]

The proof of G*d does not exist in physical form(unless he wants it to). Do not close your heart to the spirit of G*d Rho. If you truly want proof then do not deny yourself the chance to feel that. If you do feel that, which I truly hope you do, then you will realize what side has more "proof". I know this may sound foolish to you Rho, since I can tell by your posts that you value educational smarts over wisdom, but please do not just throw this message off like more "Christian babbling". Take it in and remember it the next time something truly remarkable happens to you.

[Guest Darth Dred]

Athiests are dumb as F**k.

[Guest Darth Wart]

Hmmmm. Very interesting.

 

(Just wanted to be the one to post the 200th message.)

[Guest Slo Koon]

I can't see why people bother debating Christianity. And I'm talking about the ones that call themselves Christian. Remember one mission for Christians is to spread the word of the Lord. Not to debate it. The athiests in this forum, and the Rhoiests, have heard the word. It is now up to them to convert to Christianity or not. I converted from my former state to Christianity because I knew that it was the right way to be. But not everyone has done that. Children that have been raised Christian and become athiests when they turn into teenagers are just like those that have turned from athiesm and turned to Christianity. It's all a matter of "Free Will". As a Christian you must realize that nothing you say can forcefully change their minds, only assist in helping them choose the right path. So next time you get into a religious discussion with someone of a different belief than Christianity,just give them the background of Christianity and let them know the word of the Lord. But don't, I repeat "don't" get into a debate with them over your religion verses theirs, otherwise both of you will just become tyrants defending your religions unrelenting in a discussion that goes nowhere. Case in point.

 

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Screw with me and you'll get your ass beat down. And God bless you all.

 

Shorid Master Slo Koon

[Guest Acid_Rain327]

"As a Christian you must realize that nothing you say can forcefully change their minds, only assist in helping them choose the right path."

 

"Let go of your hate and come home to God."

 

Why the heck are you guys repeating the same crap over and over again?

You say you're accepting of our beliefs, then you go and say that your path is the right path, and you hope we find the truth.

Thanks for being so accepting as to continuously say we're wrong...

 

"How the heck are you looking at it from all sides if you say there isn't a God?"

 

Where have you been? We've said over, and over, and over again that YES, we do not believe in God. HOWEVER, we are open to any proof you can provide to show us otherwise. We're saying that we don't believe in God, but who the hell knows? Maybe he does exist.

You Christians are saying there is a God - thats it, there's nothing more to it. Athiests are closeminded because they don't believe what their family and church have raised them to believe.

 

We're willing to see all sides of the arguement, and you christans are only open to your collective opinions - you knock us for our beliefs and say you hope we can be saved, and you hope we consider otherwise...

Yeah...I'm gonna have to disagree that athiests are the close-minded ones here...

 

"Athiests are dumb as F**k."

REAL accepting, happy Christian. Think your God would be happy with that?

 

That's the difference between the two sides of the arguement: Athiests say what they do and don't believe, then make it known that they are open to the ideas and statements of other religions. Christians simply say "Athiests are dumb as F**k," state that their religion is the only way, and everyone else is close minded.

 

HELLO?!

 

Think before you press that little "Submit Reply" button please?

 

We live our lives as good people, with free will and passion, so that makes us slaves.

Christians live under the oppression and fear of religion and retribution from a God that's supposed to be eternally-loving.

 

KEY WORD HERE IS OPPRESSION.

 

Athiests are free, so they're slaves.

Christians are controlled by a higher power, so they're free.

 

...and athiests dumb as F**k?

Right...

 

 

One thing I'd like to ask of you Christians, is one substantial piece of evidence that proves there is a God.

No, don't say "Well, the Bible says..."

or something like "Well, one time I got in a car accident, and I lived, so God saved me..."

 

I want solid, justifiable proof. If you can give me one piece of evidence in God's existance, then you will have earned my respect, and I'll reconsider your entire arguement here.

 

Oh, and don't say it's a matter of faith again - you all ready know claiming faith any longer in this arguement will prove fruitless.

Think about it, and see if you can come up with cold, hard facts as to God existing.

 

Try not to post again until you can use those facts to strengthen your arguement, rather than pulling from the same statements over, and over again.

 

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<a onMouseover="alert('Away put your mouse, or Medieval I will get! Hmm!')"> </a>

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 11, 2000).]

[Master Qui-Gon]

<font face="Arial"><font color="white">Darth Dred:

Athiests are dumb as F**k.

 

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">Erm...

 

Judging by your post, you must be an athiest.

 

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Master Qui-Gon, Jedi Master

Always remember, your focus determines your reality.

 

[This message has been edited by Master Qui-Gon (edited May 11, 2000).]

[Guest Ikhnaton]

Is that not what you atheists are saying about Christians? That we are as dumb as f***? You call us ignorant, closed minded, and a slew of other things. You know us not. You know not of what we know. trust me, it would take volumes for me to explain God and Christianity to you, yet YOU are the ones who are not open minded.

 

Atheism does not promote love, it promotes selfishness and taking.

 

I have been well educated in my faith, and I would jump at the opportunity to counter all of your arguments in person. I do not often write long posts, and with so many objections, it would take forever. But I guarantee that I have an answer for every single one of your problems with Christianity.

 

But the problem lies within you. If you are centered on your self, then how could you even start to focus on God?

 

And yes, I say again, you become slaves to your own passion. My loins want to go screw a girl, so there I go. You're a slave to yourself, to your passions. freedom is being able to rise above that, to say no to yourself.

 

You want peace and harmony in the world. Sorry, but it isn't going to happen unless people turn to God. Humans by themselves will fight and war and continue to fight. Peace is not a human thing, it is Divine.

 

Again, I don't have the time (since I am at work) nor the energy to post the miriads of explanations that are needed for your problems of Christianity which basically arise out of ignorance.

 

The bible was indeed written by the hand of men, but inspired by God. There is nothing in the bible that God didn't want in there, and nothing missing that he wanted in there. You have to read it with an open mind, and pray for the ability to properly interpret it. It really makes sense if you do it that way. But my faith is not in a book, it is in God.

 

Don't you see how selfish and non-loving it is to *expect* God to come to you and give you a sign? Signs are everywhere if you look for them. In the days of the Bible, there were only a few giving witness, so signs were necessary. These days, there are millions giving witness. There is a story in the bible of a rich man who refused to help a beggar who only wished for some crumbs from his table. Because of his lack of love, he punished himself (yes, HE punished himself, not God) to suffer in hell. He spoke to Abraham from the abyss and asked him to send someone from heaven to appear to his relatives so that they would not suffer his fate. Abraham told him that it would not happen because they have the prophets and whatnot. The rich man insisted that the only way they would listen would be if someone came to them from the dead. Abraham still refused because if they would not listen to the prophets, they would not listen to anyone else, even if they were to appear from the dead. This is so true and applies directly to all of you who wish for signs. Your hearts are hardened and would not even accept a sign from God if it was given to you. Oh well...

 

To quote from the Bible again, "A fool says in his heart 'There is no God.'"

 

<font size=4>Rho, you WILL change your sig or I will change it for you.

[Master Qui-Gon]

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">"A fool says in his heart 'There is no God.'"

 

Of course that's what the Bible says! If there was a Bible of atheism it would say, "A fool says in his heart "'I am right and you are wrong no matter what you say because I believe.'"

 

Okay Jack, I believe God likes Banana Fruitcake and nothing you say can convince me otherwise, because I HAVE FAITH.

 

[This message has been edited by Master Qui-Gon (edited May 11, 2000).]

[Master Qui-Gon]

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">

Hokey-dokey.

 

First off, I never said I was an atheist. I do not believe in Christianity, but I believe in what Christianity is supposed to stand for. You will never see me standing atop a mountain shouting that God does not exist. Though I cannot say that I believe in God, I also cannot say that I don't believe in God.

 

I believe that if God exists, it is in a form that human beings cannot ever hope to understand; in much the same way that a housefly could never hope to understand trigonometry.

 

Ikhnaton, I do not belittle your argument, nor do I intend any lack of respect. My point in referencing Darth Dred's comment was to point out that anyone with the intelligence of a dead cow could write that message. And it's pretty stupid to call everybody dumb without applying an ounce of intelligence to your own statement.

 

Though you may be right that Atheism doesn't promote love, judging by history, Christianity hasn't been too hot either.

 

<font face="Arial"><font color="white"><font size=-1>

Ikhnaton:

You want peace and harmony in the world. Sorry, but it isn't going to happen unless people turn to God. Humans by themselves will fight and war and continue to fight. Peace is not a human thing, it is Divine.

</font></font>

 

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">I'm sorry I just can't let that pass. Religion is the cause of the longest and bloodiest wars in human history. Perhaps, just perhaps, people would be less likely to kill if they weren't so sure there was an afterlife. It's been my experience that most atheists assign a higher value to an individual's life than religious people do. Most of the atheists I know do not support the death penalty except in the most extreme cases. It can hardly be a coincidence that the death penalty's strongest supporters are right wing Christians. What does that tell you? Christianity is supposed to be based on forgiveness.

 

Given the choice, I'd take the love of an atheist any day because that has to come from the heart and you know they're not doing it because they think they're supposed to, or because they want to get into heaven. There are many atheists and Christians alike that have not truly found love. Love is found within. You have not found it unless you are at peace with yourself-- with or without God. Dare I say that if it was proven tomorrow, beyond a shadow of a doubt that God did not exist, this "Christian love" would collapse faster than a one legged dog on peyote. A man does not need to have God in order to love his fellow man.

 

Neither does a man need to have God for him to be able to control his impulses. That's called self-induced discipline and is not the same as God-induced discipline. And you are a very sorry man indeed if you cannot control your John Thomas without God's help.

 

I also have to state that there's nothing more despicable in the United States today than the Christian Right (which is neither).

 

By looking at human culture, it is clear that Christianity has forgotten what it's supposed to stand for. Kindness comes from the heart, not from the law.

 

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Master Qui-Gon, Jedi Master

Always remember, your focus determines your reality.

[obi]

here is what i have to say. shut up!everyone here just shut up!listen to yourselves! this is a star wars forum,last time i checked. this post has too many on it! it should become a whole seperate forum by itself!you people love to argue over the things that has nothing to do with this forum! i say if you want to argue religious matters, GO TO CHURCH! i think ive made my point clear.

 

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Han Solo,best smuggler all around

[Guest Ikhnaton]

if this discussion makes you uncomfortable, you are perfectly free to leave...

[Guest Pizza the Hutt]

A word of advice for the critical thinkers:

 

Hardcore Christians by definition cannot be open-minded on the subject of religion. Let me emphasize: by definition , they cannot be open-minded. Being open-minded means you must be able to address both of these core questions: "what if there is a god?" and "what if there isn't a god." A true Christian would be unable to address the latter, which means you can't possibly expect to have a meaningful debate on religion with anyone who claims to be a Christian.