CHURCH

[Guest ShadeShifter]

To Pizza the Hutt:

 

I am a Christian, and I have asked myself questions about the existance of God. The answers I have found have given me evidence that God exists and that Jesus died for my sins.

 

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[This message has been edited by ShadeShifter (edited May 11, 2000).]

[Guest Darth Vader]

 

One thing I'd like to ask of you Christians, is one substantial piece of evidence that proves there is a God.

 

If there is no God then how did the universe come into being? Did it just pop into existence out of nothing? How can something just all of a sudden pop into existence without being placed here? If you believe that there was a "big bang" then where did all that matter come from? Where did that first tiny atom come from?

[Guest Pizza the Hutt]

Shade:

 

A Christian, by definition, has an unflagging faith in God and Jesus. If at some point you didn't have that faith (as questioning God's existence would necessitate), then you weren't at that time a Christian.

[Guest jedihorn1]

Originally posted by Pizza the Hutt:

Shade:

 

A Christian, by definition, has an unflagging faith in God and Jesus. If at some point you didn't have that faith (as questioning God's existence would necessitate), then you weren't at that time a Christian.

Thats not entirely true. Even Christians have questions and occasional doubts. It is then that God shows us that He does love us and is there. You are right about one thing, a Christian cannot be "open minded" by your definition. What I can say is what I have experienced and what happened to me before I became a Christian. I do this to let you and the others know that I used to see and believe as you do. That I understand your position because I once stood there. That is about as "open minded" as you are going to get. If I said that there was a chance that there is no God, then what kind of christian example would I be? You have all made valid claims about hypcritical Chriatians whio do not live the way they are supposed to. Yes, they give us a bad name. While everyone makes mistakes, you can tell a true Christian when they admit their mistake and fix it. Now, I haven't tried to push anything on anyone here, I'm sorry if I have, I truley didn't mean to. You want to say there is no God and believe that, or whatever else you can think of, then that is your perogitive. I grow tired of repeating myself, so this is going to be my last post here. Again, if anyone would like to talk with me or ask me a question then feel free to e-mail me and I would be happy to try and answer any questions or to talk with you.

 

 

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Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html

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There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code

[Guest Conor]

First of all, any so-called Christian who wants to waltz in here and call Atheists F**ks for believing as they do, DON'T, please.

 

Most believe what they do for a variety of reasons, and generally out of the view that science supports their viewpoint. They cannot be blamed for accepting what they see as science's take on the matter, because science is nothing but what humans have discovered for themselves about the Universe.

 

My good friend wizzywig proved God's existence scientifically on these very boards not too long ago, and I can reference his info or ask him to do it himself, but not tonight. First consider this: All created things must have a first cause. The only real accepted theory about the origin of the Universe at this point is the Big Bang Theory. Something caused the Big Bang to happen, but what was it? Anything that caused it would have to have a cause (to infinity), so there must be something, MUST be, that has no first cause. A causeless first cause. This is a rational and logical argument for something to be called God. The scientific evidence will come later.

 

Anyone who rejects science is not thinking clearly. Science may be incorrect at times, but what it is searching for are the hard concrete truths of the Universe that do not change. If our religion is true, what it says about reality will not conflict with what science finds to be really true. God being the author of reality, what we find out about it will mesh with what He tells us.

 

That said, I haven't found one iota of reality that conflicts with my Christian faith. I've looked too, as I believe it is expected of us to see for ourselves that our faith is fact (where possible, and the existence of God and verification of the Bible sure fits that criteria ) It is illogical to expect someone to reject what he feels is reality on the vague notion of faith. I don't reject faith (I came to know God through faith, and it is perfectly valid), but it is wrong to say someone must reject science to know God. What must be done is to prove reality to them through science. For some people that is what it takes.

 

I don't, though, believe every facet of the Bible should be taken absolutely literally. I believe it is all true, every bit, but I think the creation story is cast in metaphorical language (and it is poetic, no one can deny) in order for Moses to be able to explain something as beyond him as the Big Bang. He did a wonderful job though, truly inspired. I know many Christians disagree with me on this, but I think it far more reasonable, plus that seems to be the reality of it. There are small bits of evidence for a young earth, but the theory just doesn't fit the picture. I am not taking the Bible out of context to suit science, but using the the fact that the word for 'day' found in Genesis is used often throughout the OT to mean an ambiguous length of time, not 24 hours (I can back that up). Also, look at the imagery involved. It is obviously poetic in nature and cast in high style. It is describing something real, but incomprehensible (at that time, and the Bible was just important for them as it is for us).

 

Another issue that atheists pull out as a trump card is the reality of suffering. As far as it goes, the argument is weak. If God gave humans free will, then what would you have God do? Annihilate everyone who does evil or even has an evil thought? That would invalidate free will. God allows (doesn't cause) evil to happen in order to bring about a greater good (in most cases this greater good is simply keeping free will intact). This applies to natural disasters too. Suffering is not necessarily a bad thing. It can open our eyes, shake our comfort and help us want the truth.

 

I will continue...

 

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"First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in."

-C.S. Lewis

[Guest Conor]

An argument has been made that miracles cannot happen because they violate certain basic laws. What is true is that we can't make miracles happen because we are subject to those laws. However, since God created the Universe (and the existence of God can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt) then He also created the laws that govern it (as all the laws of physics and what-not came into existence in the Big Bang, its cause must have been able to create those laws). By extension, He cannot be bound by those laws since He put them into effect. That means He could break them any time He chooses. For whatever reasons, God has broken those rules at various times. If you are going to argue against the existence of God fine, but if He exists it must be a given that He can also violate the laws He created.

 

Now, about true religions. God very obviously wants us to follow Him, and following Him implies He wants us to do something. Since an all-powerful God who created the Universe would be the source of all moral law as well as all physical law (only we are given the free will to reject the moral law) what He dictates would be what we ought to do. If there are things we ought to do, there are things we ought not to do. If God wants to do one thing, and somebody says God wants us to do another, they are not speaking for God. If you claim all religions lead to God you are saying Jesus could not be God and was not speaking for God (and therefore neither is Christianity, so how could it lead to God if it is falsely speaking in His name?), for what He says violates that teaching.

 

He said to make disciples of all the nations. Jesus wants everyone to be Christian. Jesus was saying in fact, and Christians believe, that everyone should be Christian because it is the Church God founded. By that statement logic says that all other religions that contradict Christianity are in error. If they are in error they are against God's Will. If they are against God's Will they are not speaking for God and are not leading to God.

 

Simply put, if God told us to do something, and another religion says the opposite, one or both is wrong. The same goes with reality. If one religion says God is in everything when He actually isn't, that religion is wrong. A person should not belong to a religion that is misrepresenting reality. Living in a false sense of reality cannot lead one towards God. We must do our best to discover what the reality of God's Will actually is and obey it.

 

I am not saying that anyone who is not Christian is going to Hell. Any Christian who says that is in serious error. There were millions upon millions of people that never heard the Christian message before they died and just as many who believe what they do for what they believe are very good reasons. A loving God would not condemn them. Jesus alone saves, but His compassion and mercy will reach those that through no fault of their own do not accept His message.

 

There is too much to cover after reading so much. I'll see what I missed and what I have to elaborate on later.

 

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"To believe anything at all is to believe it true. To believe something true is to believe that whatever is incompatible with it must be false. And to believe somebody else's belief false is implicitly intolerant. Therefore, if intolerance is an evil, belief itself-in anything-is an evil. So the only way we can get rid of intolerance is to prohibit belief. Which, of course, would be very intolerant indeed."

-Ted Byfield

[Guest Conor]

I might as well clarify a few points about evolution that nobody seems to have really hit on (I may have missed it).

 

Small changes within species is called microevolution, while changes from one species to another is called macroevolution. Natural selection undoubtedly is the method of microevolution, but it runs into serious problems when trying to fit it to macro. A commonly used analogy is that of the bat. For the bats 'parts' to have any fitness advantage they would have to all develop at exactly the same time as they are useless without each other. The odds of random mutations causing that to happen are roughly the same odds as a tornado going through a junkyard and assembling a working boeing 747.

It is not feasible that natural selection can be the method of evolution (random mutations don't cut it, there must be another way). It doesn't fit the fossil record either, which shows no gradual change over time. The only theory I have heard that seems to fit is that of punctuated equilibrium. Long periods of stability with short burts of intense evolution. Of course, there is no explanation for how this could happen naturally. The only real explanation for evolution that is at all reasonable is when God is brought into the picture. Atheism has no way of explaining the absolutely insane complexity in even the 'simplest' things (i.e. Darwin's cell). DNA is incredible. Every day more and more scientists are coming to the conclusion that the Universe and life had an engineer. Only a mind, a super intelligent mind, could have created what we see spread before us. Evolution instigated or guided by God.

 

As for humans, I believe Adam and Eve existed and were the first beings to have a soul (I read an article just the other day that said all Y chromosones can be traced back to one man, but I can't verify it yet). Man-like creatures undoubtedly existed before them, but they did not have souls and were displaced when true humans appeared on Earth. So far what science has found agrees. Modern humans appeared out of the blue and all other types vanished nearly instantly.

 

I believe Adam and Eve fell out of a paradisical state by choosing self over God, and that such a choice actually changed our species.

 

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"To believe anything at all is to believe it true. To believe something true is to believe that whatever is incompatible with it must be false. And to believe somebody else's belief false is implicitly intolerant. Therefore, if intolerance is an evil, belief itself-in anything-is an evil. So the only way we can get rid of intolerance is to prohibit belief. Which, of course, would be very intolerant indeed."

-Ted Byfield

[Guest Darth Dred]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I think I really proved my point with the "Athiests are dumb as F**k." post. It was just me who said that. Not any other Christian in this forum. And all of a sudden Acid is stereotyping all Christians as saying that.

 

Exact words from Acid,

"Christians simply say "Athiests are dumb as F**k," state that their religion is the only way, and everyone else is close minded. "

 

Ummmm...shouldn't it be, "Darth Dred simply says "blah blah blah" etc."

 

Well that's the exact kind of reaction I wanted to get out of that post. It makes one angry to be generalized and stereotyped like that doesn't it. So next time you think of saying Christians are dumb or ignorant, or both, just remember this little lesson. You'll realize you'll be better for doing that.

 

But don't think I'm saying stereotypes are all bad. "Black people commit the most crimes." This is true. The three blacks in America that don't commit crimes I feel bad for. But I'm not going to walk through the ghetto because of three good blacks. I'm smart enough to know that I'll get mugged and possibly killed. "Asian people are short" Again true. "Mexicans smell like beans" True yet again. "Blacks don't take regular showers, and it shows." How DAMN true. Now in all these cases there are the few people that don't fit in to the stereotypes. But at least I acknowledge that.

 

But when you say that most Christians are dumb, thats an example of an untrue stereo type. Most Christians are not dumb there are almost none that are. Keep in mind that I'm talking about the REAL Christians that have actually felt the spirit of G*d. Not those that say they're Christian for the hell of it and don't follow any of the commandments. And like with my "Athiest are dumb as F**k." post. I know that's not true. There are very few that are dumb. I just posted that to see how many athiest would actually dignify that with a response. Quite a few essays were written which I never expected. HAHAHA. The ones that actually responded are perfect examples of being dumb as F**k. But only those people.

 

And Kurgan, you need to shut the heck up. That's just my opinion though.

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Dred (edited May 23, 2000).]

[Guest Darth Vader]

Originally posted by Conor:

All created things must have a first cause. The only real accepted theory about the origin of the Universe at this point is the Big Bang Theory. Something caused the Big Bang to happen, but what was it?

 

Exactly right Coner. What caused it? Its cause and effect people. The effect was the big bang. What caused it? Again all that matter didnt just pop out of nowhere, someone had to put it there. The scientific evidence is out there that proves a 6 day creation, and disproves evolution. It just a matter if you're willing to open your mind to it.

[Master Qui-Gon]

<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="green1">There is NOT evidence to disprove evolution. If there was, evolution would disprove itself. That's how scientific theory works.

 

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Master Qui-Gon, Jedi Master

Always remember, your focus determines your reality.

 

[This message has been edited by Master Qui-Gon (edited May 12, 2000).]

[Jedi Calypso]

uh, hi! this is kind of a sermon that barnabas said i should post, i had it elsewhere, but just thought that id post it here where it hought that more people could get at it:

 

"Is the dark side stronger?" Luke's famous query to Yoda raises a good question when related to the church. Is evil more powerful, (or more common, for that matter) than good?

 

Most of you will answer a quick "no" to both questions, just as yoda did. But look back on the things you did this week (or just this past day, to make things easier) How many times did you have to choose between doing the right thing, and doing what YOU wanted to do? And how manytimes did you accually do the right thing, as opposed to what would personally benifit you the most?

 

Now, I am gong to say this right off the bat, and i want you all to understand: I AM NOT CRITICIZING YOU! God knows it, but most of the time,when I look back on the week,I find all too often that many of the decisions that i made were the wrong ones. So please, dont think that i am criticizing any of you by this.

 

But, i think that you will find, that when you look back at the choices you made, some of you will find this to be true in you own lives too. If not, God bless you! And kudos for making the right decisions.

 

I ask, that if for just one week, (or if you like, just try it for one day) when you are faced with a decision between what is right, and what would turn out to be a personal benificiary, ask yourself: "Is the dark side stronger?"

 

Hopefully by doing this, you will remind yourselves of two key things:

#1) The "dark side" is not stronger, in fact, i think that Yoda hit the nail right on the head when he sai, and i quote: "No, no, but a quicker and more easy path it is."

 

And #2) We are here as servents of God, just think what He would want us to do.

 

So please, ask youself at least once this week:

"Is the dark side stronger?"

 

comments?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Un-Council's Disgruntled Bounty Hunter

-Calypso

[Guest Conor]

You are correct. There is not enough evidence to disprove evolution. Nor is there enough evidence to prove evolution or how it occurs (although there is a great deal of evidence that evolution has happened somehow, it is still a theory).

 

There is a huge volume of rational and scientific evidence against the possibility of evolution by Natural Selection and random mutations. I believe evolution happened for quite a few reasons, but any serious look at creation brings one conclusion. The glorious complexity of life and the Universe had a designer.

 

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"To believe anything at all is to believe it true. To believe something true is to believe that whatever is incompatible with it must be false. And to believe somebody else's belief false is implicitly intolerant. Therefore, if intolerance is an evil, belief itself-in anything-is an evil. So the only way we can get rid of intolerance is to prohibit belief. Which, of course, would be very intolerant indeed."

-Ted Byfield

[Guest Darth Killa]

This is by far the biggest bull**** I have eve read. Most of us here live in America and its called freedom of religion. I mean damn people it is stupid to fight whos religion is better than the others. Hell I believe its church that currupts people. It says in the bible that the true church of God is in the heart. So why don't ya'll be nice and make up.

 

Thanks,

Darth Killa

[Guest Barnabas Antilies]

I will not attack anyones beleifs or non beleifs. For any of you who are familiar with Chistianity you should know they beleive in spiritual gift's. I have seen these in action and have expierianced my own. It is because of these things that I beleive. Here are some examples.

 

1: As a child I was pushed by a force I beleive to be any angel off my drive way where i was playing, we had a steep driveway.AS I turn to see what is moving me I see our car go down the driveway. My little sister had gotten into the car and hit the emergency brake. I would have died. The car ended up in a shallow pond and not crossing the street and careening of the cliff. It is a miracle we are both still alive.

2: My gift is I can here Gods voice, loud and clear. It's kinda freaky when your all alone and he just starts talking to you.

3: I was sitting next to my fiance the night we met. She has the same gift I do. She asked what God was saying to me I didn't want to say. She asked what it started with. "An M", I replied. "Does it have to do with me?" she asked. Yes. I"m hearing the same thing.

God told us both that we were supposed to get married. I still haven't kissed her. It's the best realationship I've ever had.

4: My father never beat any of us growing up except once and that was me. He hit me so many times I can't count. It didn't hurt and I never bruised. He came into My room later on and I told him I loved him, He cried.

I have more examples these are but a few.

 

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Father Barnabas Antilies, Supreme Chancelor

[Guest Darth Killa]

One gift God gave people was choice. If a guy pulls a gun and shoot some one that was his choice. God won't stop him because he gave man choice.

[Jedi Calypso]

WELL,THATS AN INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE THERE KILLA, I BELIEVE THAT GOD LETS BAD THINGS HAPPEN SO WE CAN ENJOY THE GOOD THINGS THAT MUCH MORE

[Guest wizzywig]

My friend Conor brought this thread to my attention a few days ago, but I’ve been down with the flu for a few days and unable to post. I’m still unwell, but I just got through watching the first part of the “Jesus” miniseries on CBS tonight, and it sparked some thoughts that I wanted to set down before I collapse for the night:

 

1. I noticed comments by someone claiming to be a Christian, but making bigoted, insulting, and obscene claims about atheists and various racial groups. Jesus said, “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.” Matt. 7:16-17. A person who claims to follow Christ but speaks hatefully need not be taken seriously as a Christian. Genuine Christians certainly aren’t perfect, but genuine Christians don’t go out of their way to be hateful, and when they do wrong, they are convicted of it within, and they apologize and repent of it.

 

2. Acid_Rain327 makes a good point:

 

We've said over, and over, and over again that YES, we do not believe in God. HOWEVER, we are open to any proof you can provide to show us otherwise. We're saying that we don't believe in God, but who the hell knows? Maybe he does exist. You Christians are saying there is a God - thats it, there's nothing more to it. Athiests are closeminded because they don't believe what their family and church have raised them to believe.

 

We're willing to see all sides of the arguement, and you christans are only open to your collective opinions - you knock us for our beliefs and say you hope we can be saved, and you hope we consider otherwise...

Yeah...I'm gonna have to disagree that athiests are the close-minded ones here...

 

…One thing I'd like to ask of you Christians, is one substantial piece of evidence that proves there is a God.

No, don't say "Well, the Bible says..." or something like "Well, one time I got in a car accident, and I lived, so God saved me..." I want solid, justifiable proof. If you can give me one piece of evidence in God's existance, then you will have earned my respect, and I'll reconsider your entire arguement here.

 

We had an excellent discussion on this very issue in the Racer forum a few months ago. I will look up my posts from that discussion which dealt with the evidence for God’s reality—evidence that I consider not only strong but conclusive. It may take me a day or two because of deadline pressure I’m under, plus being sick, but I will get to it.

 

Meanwhile, if you’d like to get a glimpse of the evidence for God that I refer to, read this page: http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/jdenney/anthrpic.htm .

 

3. Pizza the Hutt writes:

A Christian, by definition, has an unflagging faith in God and Jesus. If at some point you didn't have that faith (as questioning God's existence would necessitate), then you weren't at that time a Christian.

 

I disagree. Genuine Christians experience doubt. There have been long stretches in my life when I have been 60% Christian, 40% agnostic. Jesus validated the rational approach to faith when he presented the evidence of the resurrection to Doubting Thomas—a genuine Christian who doubted, whose faith definitely flagged, but whom Jesus received and affirmed despite his doubts.

 

It is not a sin to doubt. Doubt does not equal unbelief. Christians doubt their faith—and for that matter, atheists sometimes doubt their unbelief and wake up in a cold sweat wondering, “What if God DOES exist?” To doubt is to be human. It is nothing more than the exercise of our God-given intellect.

 

4. Darth Killawrites:

Hell I believe its church that currupts people. It says in the bible that the true church of God is in the heart. So why don't ya'll be nice and make up.

 

And OverShadow writes:

And religion brings peace? I thought most Christians were smarter than that.

 

No. Religion does not bring peace. It was religion that nailed Jesus to a cross. The history of religion is a history of wars and persecution and the burning of heretics and the crucifixion of the innocent.

 

But Jesus is a Person, not a religion. Many people have been killed and persecuted by religious people who thought they were serving Jesus by killing or torturing. But the fact that such things were done in the name of Jesus is not a reflection on Jesus himself.

 

I challenge you to quote one statement that Jesus ever made or one thing he ever did that would justify the evils that were done in his name, such as the Inquisition or the Crusades or the war in Northern Ireland. These things were not done in obedience to Jesus’s commands, but in disregard for his commands.

 

I have a question to pose for everyone here, and the first person to answer it correctly wins an authentic, eco-friendly, dolphin-safe No-Prize (no animals were harmed and no rain forest vegetation was cut down in order to manufacture this No-Prize). Question: How many people have been killed because of Darwin’s theory of evolution? Explain your answer.

 

(By the way, this question is NOT an attack on Darwin or evolution. I don’t hold Darwin responsible for the massacres that result from his theory anymore than I blame Jesus for religious wars and heretic burnings.)

 

That’s all for now. Time to crawl back into my sickbed—but I’ll be back.

 

--wiz

 

 

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"Christian:

One who believes that the New Testament

is a divinely inspired book admirably suited

to the spiritual needs of his neighbor."

--AMBROSE BIERCE

 

<font size = 1>

 

 

[This message has been edited by wizzywig (edited May 15, 2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by wizzywig (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Guest jedihorn1]

Hey all.

I know I said that I wasn't going to reply anymore, but after getting caught up on the posts I felt I needed to. Darth Dred: I strongly suggest that you not call yourself a Christian on this post unless you intend to act like one. Your statements were not only offensive, but they also were a bad testament to the stance TRUE Christians are trying to make on this post. To cuss and make comments as you did in your last two posts were totaly against everything Jesus taught; and simply went to show how much of a hypocrite you are. You can get mad at me if you want, I could care less. If you do not intend to act as a true Christian should, don't call yourself one. That goes for a few others who have claimed to be Christians yet have made comments that were totaly un-biblical. Acid and the others have a point about hypocrites and you are just providing evidence to that fact. I just want them, to know that there are true Christians that do live as we are supposed to. For a Christian to act any other way only serves to disrespect God and taint other Christians witness. the result as such is that those who may not believe as we do will loose what respect they did have for us. This I do not wish to see happen. this is a civil conversation and it should stay that way. I respect the opinions of those who differ from my own. To do any less would make me like those I have just rebuked. To those who were offended by Dred's remarks, I apologise and enphasise that his remarks, in no way, reflect the point of view or opinion of Christians. That is simply one ignorent and confused individual running off at the mouth. I am in no way perfect, but I do try to live as I should, as those who claim to be Christians are supposed to as well. Anyone who does not try to live by the standards set by Jesus, should not call themselves Christians. For if they had truly given their life to God, they would not act in such a way. As I stated before, we all make mistakes, but it seems as though Dred does not intend to right his wrong. and if he doesnt see the wrong in his statements, then he truley does need to be prayed for.

God bless you all.

 

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Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html

There" TARGET=_blank>http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html

There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code

[Guest Darth Vader]

I'm sorry wizzywig, I was trying to quote something acid rain wrote that didnt turn out the way I wanted it to. To set thing straight, I am a christian. I believe the world was created in 6 days. I can if needed provide scientific proof to back it up.

 

 

 

[Guest wizzywig]

Oops, my mistake, Darth Vader. I didn't read your post carefully enough. You were indeed quoting Acid Rain. I edited my post to eliminate confusion on that point.

 

Re:

To set thing straight, I am a christian. I believe the world was created in 6 days. I can if needed provide scientific proof to back it up.

 

I'm familiar with the arguments and evidence for 6-day creationism. I respect that position, though I do not hold it myself. I believe the evidence indicates that God used long time-scales to produce the universe and life. I believe in God the Creator--not as a matter of "blind faith," but as a matter of clear and compelling evidence. So you and I are in sync with regard to the meaning, purpose, and intelligent design for the universe. We differ only on the means God used to bring it about and the timeframe in which it was accomplished. I see the Genesis story as a metaphor or a vision (and highly accurate and informative as such) rather than a scientific description of events.

 

Thanks for clarifying my misimpression.

 

--wiz

 

 

[Guest Jericho]

This has been a interesting topic. It's even sparked discussions within my own group of friends. There's nothing better than to debate religion while driving through New York City at 1 am. Heh.

 

Anyway, it's time to weigh in with another post.

 

My own point of view on this issue has already been presented. I do have a question, however, concerning what some people have said about Jesus being the only way to God.

 

Jesus says..."I am the way, the truth, the light. None shall know the way except through me." (Forgive me if that quote is not completely accurate.)

 

Now, certainly, taken quite literally, that could mean that you must accept Jesus and go through him to get to Heaven.

 

But...it can also be interpreted that only through Jesus' example of a good life can you know the way. So, in this case Jesus is the example, and only through emulating his life can we hope to gain entrance to Heaven.

 

Everything is open to interpretation. I still cannot believe in a God who would shun me because I'm not Christian or don't worship Jesus. I'd much rather cut straight to the big guy upstairs.

 

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that Jesus was a Jew. He said...

"I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it." (Again...forgive me if it's not the exact quote.)

 

At the time, the law was Judaism. Christianity is simply a derivative of that. I can't retell the story completely (it was 1 am afterall, in New York City), but I was told that it was an apostle that actually created Christianity. I'd like to know what thoughts there are on this.

 

The main thing is...anytime there's a debate about religion, it's a good thing.

 

 

 

 

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Jericho

Break the walls down.

[Guest Conor]

But...it can also be interpreted that only through Jesus' example of a good life can you know the way. So, in this case Jesus is the example, and only through emulating his life can we hope to gain entrance to Heaven.

 

I would agree with that. However, wouldn't you admit that emulating Jesus would involve obeying what He asks of us? He wants us to follow Him, and those that follow Him are called Christians. Those that do not follow Him, should, and therefore they are not doing something they should and are in error.

 

I would agree that Jesus wouldn't shun you for not being Christian. He welcomes you to follow Him in Christianity, He doesn't condemn you. I am certain His compassion would let those that do not know Him to enter heaven, and that going to hell requires a knowing rejection of God (the choice of Lucifer, self over God).

 

We believe the Father has appointed His son, Jesus, as the mediator between us and the Father. If that is God's wish, that is the way it ought to be, hmmm?

 

As for Judasim, if Jesus said He came to fulfill it, doesn't that imply that it was incomplete? If Christianity is the completed version of Judasim (with the Messiah having arrived), I think it would be logical for the Jews to come to Christ.

 

------------------

"To believe anything at all is to believe it true. To believe something true is to believe that whatever is incompatible with it must be false. And to believe somebody else's belief false is implicitly intolerant. Therefore, if intolerance is an evil, belief itself-in anything-is an evil. So the only way we can get rid of intolerance is to prohibit belief. Which, of course, would be very intolerant indeed."

-Ted Byfield

[Guest wizzywig]

Conor--

 

Great new sig! Who is Ted Byfield? And where it the quote from? It really speaks to the idiocy of our age.

 

--wiz

 

 

 

[Guest wizzywig]

To all—

 

In a previous post, I promised I would submit non-biblical, scientific proof of the existence of God, of a Cosmic Designer who imagined and created the time-space reality we inhabit. This evidence for the existence of God is derived from a body of scientific evidence that was first assembled and correlated by physicist Brandon Carter. You can read more about this body of evidence (and the theological implications thereof) in the following books:

 

The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by John D. Barrow, Frank J. Tipler

The Symbiotic Universe : Life and the Cosmos in Unity by George Greenstein,

God and the New Physics and The Mind of God by Paul Davies

 

Also, for a quick intro to the Anthropic Principle, read this brief article from The London Daily Telegraph: http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/jdenney/anthrpic.htm .

 

The evidence of the Anthropic Principle compounds dozens of cosmic coincidences regarding the structure of the universe and various quantum and cosmological constants, any one of which is so remotely unlikely that it is vanishingly improbable that it could hardly be the result of random chance. When you factor all of these cosmic coincidences together, it becomes clear that the universe an artifact of intelligent design.

 

This is very important to understand: The point of the Anthropic Principle is not merely that the universe we live in is unlikely. It is that so many conditions and constants of the universe have been so precisely fine-tuned and carefully balanced that it is utterly inconceivable that those conditions happened by chance. If it was a case of one or two of these conditions arising by chance, that would be one thing. It would be stupifyingly unlikely, but perhaps it would be thinkable. But the entire array of conditions, many of which are statistically inconceivable when taken alone, add up to a probability of virtually one part in infinity that our life-giving universe could have arisen by chance. When the evidence is so overwhelming, you can only conclude that a creative intelligence was involved.

 

If just one condition or constant of the universe had misfired, the whole universe would have been hostile to life, would have consisted of nothing but hydrogen gas or black holes, etc., depending on which condition misfired. Here is a short list of those fine-tuned conditions:

 

1. gravitational coupling constant

> if larger: no stars less than 1.4 solar masses, hence short stellar lifespans

> if smaller: no stars more than 0.8 solar masses, hence no heavy element production

 

2. strong nuclear force coupling constant

> if larger: no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life are unstable

> if smaller: no elements other than hydrogen

 

3. weak nuclear force coupling constant

> if larger: all hydrogen is converted to helium in the big hang, hence too much heavy elements

> if smaller: no helium produced from big bang, hence not enough heavy elements

 

4. electromagnetic coupling constant

> if larger: no chemical bonding; elements more massive than boron are unstable to fission

> if smaller: no chemical bonding

 

5. ratio of protons to electrons

> if larger: electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation

> if smaller: electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation

 

6. ratio of electron to proton mass

> if larger: no chemical bonding

> if smaller: no chemical bonding

 

7. expansion rate of the universe

> if larger: no galaxy formation

> if smaller: universe collapses prior to star formation

 

8. entropy level of the universe

> if larger: no star condensation within the proto-galaxies

> if smaller: no proto-galaxy formation

 

9. mass density of the universe

> if larger: too much deuterium from big bang, hence stars burn too rapidly

> if smaller: no helium from big bang, hence not enough heavy elements

 

10. age of the universe

> if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase in the right part of the galaxy

> if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed

 

11. initial uniformity of radiation

> if smoother: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed

> if coarser: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space

 

12. average distance between stars

> if larger: heavy element density too thin for rocky planet production

> if smaller: planetary orbits become destabilized

 

13. solar luminosity

> if increases too soon: runaway green house effect

> if increases too late: frozen oceans

 

14. fine structure constant (a function of three other fundamental constants, Planck's constant, the velocity of light, and the electron charge each of which, therefore, must be fine-tuned)

> if larger: no stars more than 0.7 solar masses

> if smaller: no stars less than 1.8 solar masses

 

15. decay rate of the proton

> if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation

> if smaller: insufficient matter in the universe for life

 

16. ^12Carbon to ^16Oxygen energy level ratio

> if larger: insufficient oxygen

> if smaller: insufficient carbon

 

17. decay rate of ^8Beryllium

> if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars

> if faster: no element production beyond beryllium and, hence, no life chemistry possible

 

18. mass difference between the neutron and the proton

> if greater: protons would decay before stable nuclei could form

> if smaller: protons would decay before stable nuclei could form

 

19. initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons

> if greater: too much radiation for planets to form

> if smaller: not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form

 

Physicist Hugh Ross observes:

 

The degree of fine-tunedness for many of these parameters is utterly amazing. For example, if the strong nuclear force were even two percent stronger or two percent weaker, the universe would never be able to support life. More astounding yet, the ground state energies for ^4Helium, ^8Beryllium, ^12Carbon, and ^16Oxygen cannot be higher or lower with respect to each other by more than four percent without yielding a universe with insufficient oxygen and/or carbon for any kind of life. The expansion rate of the universe is even more sensitive. It must be fine-tuned to an accuracy of one part in 10^55 ...

 

The discovery of this degree of design in the universe is having a profound theological impact upon astronomers. Fred Hoyle concluded in 1982 that "a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology." Paul Davies moved from promoting atheism in 1983 to conceding in 1984 that "the laws [of physics] ... seem themselves to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design" to testifying in his 1988 book The Cosmic Blueprint that there "is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all. The impression of design is overwhelming." George Greenstein in 1988 expressed these thoughts:

 

“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency--or, rather, Agency--must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”

 

This is just the beginning. My next post will add even more evidence for the reality of the Cosmic Designer.

 

--wiz

 

 

[Jedi Calypso]

very cool wiz, thank you for finally putting to rest that there is accually some solid non-biblical proof that GOD is real

-calypso