DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike So now you have equated the "lightsaber" with the weakest and most utterly useles guns in the game. You have made everyone elses point for them DeTRiTiC. You first make a claim to saber use being a preference, then you pretty much admit that it is a detriment. Well Done, you well and truly fell into my trap. The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are THE most powerful weapons in the game. I get almost as many kills with the Bryar as I do with the flechette, repeater and rocket launcher. The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are the hardest weapons to use well, which is why everyone thinks they are the most useless weapons in the game. But as soon as somone with any proficiency with them starts attacking you, you're in serious trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by L3onheart Why play with guns? It's a SW based game with a lightsaber, provides an unique playing experience. Want guns? Go to Q3A, UT(2k3), CS, DoD, RtCW or what not. Playing a CTF match with saber-only and full-force, now THAT'S SURREAL SKILLS! Because the CTFers play this game for the Force, not for the Saber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ Well Done, you well and truly fell into my trap. Expect to hear from my lawyer! Who the hell do you think you are leaving traps all over the place!!! Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are THE most powerful weapons in the game. I get almost as many kills with the Bryar as I do with the flechette, repeater and rocket launcher. Bryar? Look man I understand your little point here but lets step back into reality for a minute. If you and a player as good as you are are having a little gun battle. You have a bryar he is armed with a Heavy repeatter, the end result is you lose. Killing a less skilled player then one self does not show your weapons effectiveness as much as it shows your superior skill. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ The Bryar, Bowcaster and Disruptor are the hardest weapons to use well, which is why everyone thinks they are the most useless weapons in the game. But as soon as somone with any proficiency with them starts attacking you, you're in serious trouble. Oh yeah FEAR THE BRYAR!!! I'm sure the top teams in TWL are all working on strats to combat Bryar users All you have shown is that the saber is SOOOOOO weak that peole have actually started to own with a bryar. Dear God what has Raven done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ Because the CTFers play this game for the Force, not for the Saber I agree with you here. However gunners will have to decide which guns and what force, instead of simply all force and all guns. No one is saying you don't get force and guns, we're just saying that if you choose to be the gunner and have all advantages that come with the longer range and power, you will have a disadvantage in other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 You really think a repeater user will always come out on top over a bryar user? You are more misguided than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 28, 2002 Author Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by Doctor Shaft Keep in mind, this will probably not be as bad as the grappling hook of jedi vs merc servers. The hook thing was a good idea, but the counters against it are non existant. You can smack into any wall you like without consequence, hang indefinitely, and no one could use the force or anything else to manipulate how you move I think. Even if they could, the chances of it are limited. In this version, I'm sure having a jetpack will be a costly endeavor points wise. I'm sure Artifex won't allow a jetpacker to also be armed to the teeth with multiple high level guns. Hopefully the jet pack will not have indefinite flying ability either. It would be cool if it drained something, and rather than just insta recharge, the packer has to pick up shield units or something. But anyway, we can force pull and push them, and their velocity will hurt them. In CTF, I don't see this exploit being incredibly damaging. Places like the nar shadaa ctf map have plenty of high spots, but when you're moving fast trying to get that flag, he's not going to be completely successful in his perch, and other jetpackers can get to him. If you have no jetpackers, in some cases you can actually just do a piggy back system and hoist yourself up there. I've seen people grip their buddies up places too. In FFA... well, you'll just have to live with the fact that there are probably going to be some players that will perch themselves in a stupid spot. Just avoid them, watch for their attacks, and let them have a boring game by themselves. One other thing to note is that the perched player wouldn't be helping his team out much. The strategic value of that perch you're talking about is minimal. The player roosting there would just be forcing his team to play minus one player. I doubt any competitive CTF teams are spending much time standing in one spot. :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 28, 2002 Author Share Posted October 28, 2002 Easy. Let's not turn the thread into another flame war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 I can see what Fatalstrike is getting at... Weaponwise, the Repeater beats the living piss out of the Bryar. Repeater has: Rapid fire, decent damage, formidable non charged secondary that does what, over 40, with splash damage as possible bonus? Someone verify this. This can stack thanks to rapid fire. Accuracy? Who cares if you can send a maelstrom of whatever the hell that thing shoots out? The Bryar has got: Excellent accuracy that's for sure. However it's primary damge is what, 20 per primary? Nowhere near as fast as the Repeater in primary killing fire rate. Secondary fire needs a charge time of what, 2, 3 seconds? Damage over 60? I need to check my numbers, I can't remember. Someone verify. I'm sorry, but if I saw two gunners of equal skill going at it, one with either weapon, I see the Repeater winning often if the guy bothers to MOVE. The trouble with the Bryar is that you 'NEED' spot on accuracy to kill things with bigger weapons with it. The Repeater... Needs far less accuracy, so if it's equal skill, I see the Repeater guy getting most kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ You really think a repeater user will always come out on top over a bryar user? You are more misguided than I thought. Misguided? WTF are you insulting me for you stupid son of a.....hehe just playin I won't make this another flame war. But in all honesty with two player of even skill levels the player with the superior weapon does have a large advantage. You must admit that.....well you don't have to....but you should! BTW always is too strong a statement I prefer "most of the time" or "most likely" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by ArtifeX Easy. Let's not turn the thread into another flame war. was anyone talking to you? LoL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 *Snicker* Heh... Err.. Missed your post there before I blew my mouth off.. Sorrt Artife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by ArtifeX Well, to begin with, probably not much. The jetpack itself won't be visible unless you use a model that has the jetpack already in it, like the Mandalores. I'm going to try to use the missile smoke trail as a visual indicator for the time being. I need to find a good modeller to help me create a jetpack that I can bolt onto the player model when that player has access to the jetpack. Well, that will look awakward on models WITH jetpacks already.. As a last resort, if you care about looks, why not make a Force that lets you float horizontally, to be combined with Jump? However, that'l suck up Force SOOOO badly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 We might as well stop the discussions about 1.04 elements. In the end, despite all of our personal discrepencies with the game, it is a strong build. Granted, we can find things about it that we don't like, but overall it is a working game. Yes, lightsaber battles may be less than exciting, dynamic, or the lot for some of us, but in the end, it still works, and definite stradegies exist in terms of making it work. Some of us just don't like it. I personally have had enough of old school JK2 ctf in any form, whether it's .02, .03, .04, or JK2++. I had the most fun JK2++ style, but it was still an endless one man army most of the time. Unless you had a well meshed team, but even then, the common stradegy was to have a runnner, a flag guard, a middle man, and a floater, or just another runner. Good game, but since you're mostly playing with a random assortment of people, this kind of structure doesn't usually exist. Promod is going a different direction, but I like it. It's finally taking away all the super hyper dynamic adrenaline rush that previous versions of JK2 have brought at high levels. Some people enjoy that, I find it enjoyable to a point, but the skill levels and styles all eventually migrate to one point. I think promod has the potential to have multiple successful styles. It's like a preference for either Marvel vs Capcom 2 (a street fighter game) or Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike. By no means does MVC2 have no stradegy or elite skills involved, but the basic mechanics of it are about speed and overrunning the opponent OR using that speed and super powers to keep the person away. 3rd Strike is a much slower game compared to MVC2, but also has multiple layers of game play. Some people can parry their opponents' moves to death, while others rely more on creating pressure and faking the guy out with another type of character. I liken Promod to that style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Shaft makes a good point. This new style will force players to specialize their set up for where the plan to play in CTF. No more one man team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 The bryar and repeater can be deadly to those not holding a saber or swinging a saber, the secondary charged can do about 100 damage, but compared to other guns in terms of firing rate, speed, and damage it's outclassed. a lv4 bryar does 100+ in promod... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Well actually, the bryar can get past people even with high saber defence, it just requires a bit more skill and agility. The bryar isn't outclassed by any weapons, since you can easily avoid a stream of high frequency shots ie the repeater and stormie rifle, and you can easily avoid the slower moving explosive attacks. However the Bryar shot is accurate AND deadly, and its the shot that you can't predict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Lv. 4 Bryar does over 100 in secondary I HOPE.. Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 100+ Wow. That's great. Here's hoping that red stance will do 100 damage instead of 90, off hand. Anyway, if the briar can do that, I can see a jetpack bryar combination being deadly. That would be cool to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ Well actually, the bryar can get past people even with high saber defence, it just requires a bit more skill and agility. The bryar isn't outclassed by any weapons, since you can easily avoid a stream of high frequency shots ie the repeater and stormie rifle, and you can easily avoid the slower moving explosive attacks. However the Bryar shot is accurate AND deadly, and its the shot that you can't predict. Bryar is outclassed, don't know who you've been playing. If every weapon was equal, why are AOE guns better? BTW, only way to get someone with the saber is from behind or when they are swinging their saber, don't know how agility works in geting threw lv3 defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 Artife, will you eventually grant Forces a fourth level of power, like the guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 Originally posted by MMXP Artife, will you eventually grant Forces a fourth level of power, like the guns? I'm gonna have to guess that he won't as the reason for the gun point system was to ballance out the fact that you didnt need to put any points in guns in order to use them, i'd rather have tweaks to existing powers than another level to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 Originally posted by zerowingzero Bryar is outclassed, don't know who you've been playing. If every weapon was equal, why are AOE guns better? BTW, only way to get someone with the saber is from behind or when they are swinging their saber, don't know how agility works in geting threw lv3 defence. I've been playing the best, how about you? Agility works quite simply, it helps you get behind the person in order to shoot them, the faster and more agile your jumping ability allows you to be, the greater your chances of beating someone with level 3 saber defense. I honestly believe that the bryar is one of the best weapons if you are patient enough to learn how to use it, I'm by no means a bryar master, since my accuracy sucks, but I can kill quite a few people with it no matter what weapon they are using, the same in fact with any gun, except the DEMP which i've only ever used a couple of times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 The problem with the bryar is that although it can kill people good, the rate at which it fires and the ease of avoiding it's blast is much greater than other guns, which really means you might be a killing machine with the bryar, but the odds are the person will kill you first with th other gun. And it does do wonders againsed saber weilders who think it's a useless weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lathain Valtiel Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 Originally posted by zerowingzero I'm gonna have to guess that he won't as the reason for the gun point system was to ballance out the fact that you didnt need to put any points in guns in order to use them, i'd rather have tweaks to existing powers than another level to worry about. Ah.. What I can't help but notice though is that it takes more points to fully upgrade a gun profiencency compared to Forces, which I find slightly unfair to the gunners to a point. Granted, the guns are better then, but I think such a higher proficency should exist for Forces as well. (Plus, I dare say it's highly unrealistic to be able to master a Force Power more easily than a gun...).. ..Holy, I'm a saberist and I'm defending gunners. What;s wrong with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted October 29, 2002 Share Posted October 29, 2002 Level 3 guns are exactly like their current counterparts, while lv 4 are the same with some "bonuses", like ammo consumption and damage, a.k.a jedi's had better run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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