On the possibilities of an expansion pack:

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by Spider AL

 

 

Yet, you say they should be discounted because they're in a minority? Very authoritarian. You're deciding whose opinions of what constitutes a fun game are valid now?

 

Experts are in a minority, and yet you say their opinions of what constitutes fun are in some way MORE valid than the opinions of a majority cross-section?

 

Strange... I don't quite understand your reasoning on that front.

 

 

 

 

From what i gather, there is NO group that can honestly ballence the game, therefore, noone should try? I'm not grasping this.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:

From what i gather, there is NO group that can honestly ballence the game, therefore, noone should try? I'm not grasping this.

 

Well ZWZ, this is just my personal opinion, but I think that gameplay-altering patches have one major effect: the effect of alienating sections of the community because they take away things that people have gotten used to, and had fun with.

 

For example, 1.03 alienated a lot of people because it disempowered guns, force powers and the sabre.

 

1.04 alienated a lot of people because it disempowered the backswing. (Personally I view 1.04 as an improvement over 1.03, so I was one of the lucky ones who weren't alienated by it)

 

Now, regardless of any improvements to the game through minor bugfixes, it cannot be denied that the patches alienated a lot of people.

 

Now, if Raven had not released those gameplay-altering patches, who knows what JO would be like now. It might be better, it might be worse, nobody can say...

 

But my belief is that attempts to alter the gameplay of a game after it's been released for some time, and people have settled into their respective patterns, is just cruel to those people that will be alienated.

 

Thus, every effort should be made to balance a game before its release, but I don't think the gameplay should be altered at all after release.

 

My point is not simply that no group has the right to decide what to balance, my point is also that no group has the right to deliberately alienate another group, regardless of how long they've been playing.

[zerowingzero]

I understand what your saying, but if the company did not playtest enough, and the game had some great flaws, would you say the whole community would adapt and not care?

 

That's why i'm supporting mods, even though they may be inballenced, with the maker still around, they can be alterd till it's right. forinstance, in promod beta 1, the yellow stance dominated all the others, the speed and damage were too great, so in beta 2, the damage was slightly reduced.

I doubt raven would do much playtesting, if any if they released a 1.05 or an expansion, using past patches as examples. I would rather have raven make a sp only expantion, coupled with the latest maps/models plus the most popular mods as options, that way there would still be the vannila game, jedi mod, promod, and maybe some of those tc's that are to be released.

 

The least they could do is maybe point to recomended mods/models on their site, or make a pak that everyone could download. Right now it's pretty much random to see the model you just dled on servers. How much work would be requred to do this? A few people to look at the mods/models/maps for bugs, zip them or make a .exe, then but it on thier site for dl, no coding required. But this isnt the ut developers here that release bonus packs for a game that's older than a few months...

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:

I understand what your saying, but if the company did not playtest enough, and the game had some great flaws, would you say the whole community would adapt and not care?

 

A good question... My answer would be: If a game isn't good when it's released, it shouldn't succeed. As for the fans who want the game to be a certain way... Modmakers used Half-Life to make their great mods even though the vanilla game wasn't the greatest MP experience, and they were the some of the most successful mods ever made for any game.

 

Originally posted by zerowingzero:

That's why i'm supporting mods, even though they may be inballenced

 

And I support mods too in my way, in that I hope they succeed. I've been talking about how gameplay-altering patches are bad though.

 

As for predictions of what Raven would release in an expansion, they're all moot... Nobody can predict the effect of an expansion until its release, apart from one factor: Most people here seem to agree that there would be an influx of new players if an expansion was released. That is what I've been terming the "positive effect" of such an expansion.

 

And I think Raven may have been scalded by all the kiddies calling them names on the boards. It's unsurprising they haven't involved themselves deeper in the community.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

The thing that confused me is the continued insistance of people to think of the game as Guns vs Sabers, this (imo) is precisely the reason why half these arguments start. The "elite" CTFers don't just run riot with guns, they appreciate the power of the saber, but IT HAS A TIME AND A PLACE, saberists want to be able to be a one man army using just one weapon, gunners wan't to be a one man army using a multitude of weapons adapting depending on situation. Now in terms of balance, who SHOULD win? I think the gunner should win, they have far more ability to adapt. If you hadn't noticed, in the movies, the Jedi win because George tailors every single battle to allow them to do so, if the battle-droids used rocket launchers instead of blasters, the entire jedi order would have been wiped out in AotC.

 

Here's something which may confuse some of you, this is a game not a movie. If it was a movie the Jedi would HAVE to win, afterall they are some kind of uberbeing.

 

The second someone makes it so that Guns vs Saber is balanced instead of Gun vs Gun vs Gun vs Saber vs Gun, they basically remove the need for guns entirely from the game, afterall you can defeat anyone with a saber. Gunners use guns AND sabers because it is the optimal combination, what right do people who deliberately restrict their arsenal have to complain when they can't win against those who use everything?

 

An earlier post suggests that CTF is dying, to me its the only game-type which is actually beginning to flourish, a lot of players who'd moved on to ut2003 and such games have returned to play CTF alongside the newer games.

 

As for an expansion, I think its essential that an expansion is produced in order for this game to survive, but it should be stand-alone or at least loaded via the mod-menu. We need the influx of new maps, players and ideas that an expansion would provide. Afterall the JK2 editing community has hardly taken off, we have a couple of hundred maps and a few dozen mods which change hardly anything. The only real mod to date is Hydroball which died pretty quickly due to lack of server support.

[Darth Kaan]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

The thing that confused me is the continued insistance of people to think of the game as Guns vs Sabers, this (imo) is precisely the reason why half these arguments start. The "elite" CTFers don't just run riot with guns, they appreciate the power of the saber, but IT HAS A TIME AND A PLACE, saberists want to be able to be a one man army using just one weapon, gunners wan't to be a one man army using a multitude of weapons adapting depending on situation. Now in terms of balance, who SHOULD win? I think the gunner should win, they have far more ability to adapt. If you hadn't noticed, in the movies, the Jedi win because George tailors every single battle to allow them to do so, if the battle-droids used rocket launchers instead of blasters, the entire jedi order would have been wiped out in AotC.

 

Here's something which may confuse some of you, this is a game not a movie. If it was a movie the Jedi would HAVE to win, afterall they are some kind of uberbeing.

 

The second someone makes it so that Guns vs Saber is balanced instead of Gun vs Gun vs Gun vs Saber vs Gun, they basically remove the need for guns entirely from the game, afterall you can defeat anyone with a saber. Gunners use guns AND sabers because it is the optimal combination, what right do people who deliberately restrict their arsenal have to complain when they can't win against those who use everything?

 

An earlier post suggests that CTF is dying, to me its the only game-type which is actually beginning to flourish, a lot of players who'd moved on to ut2003 and such games have returned to play CTF alongside the newer games.

 

As for an expansion, I think its essential that an expansion is produced in order for this game to survive, but it should be stand-alone or at least loaded via the mod-menu. We need the influx of new maps, players and ideas that an expansion would provide. Afterall the JK2 editing community has hardly taken off, we have a couple of hundred maps and a few dozen mods which change hardly anything. The only real mod to date is Hydroball which died pretty quickly due to lack of server support.

 

I agree with most of what you said except three things;

 

1. In High level CTF, it is a guns/force only game. Period. Sabers are useless against force weilding cappers. It is not a matter of them being an all the time effective weapon, it's the fact they are not effective 99% of the time.

 

2. Merc's use force powers without having to invest some of their force points to weapons. This gives them more points for force powers they should not have in the first place, one of which increase their weapons rate of fire.

 

3. Movies or not, giving Merc's force powers in the game afforded them even more advantage than they already had mid and long range. While I am only average at CTF, all I have seen that dominate use guns and force only. I can't and don't blaim them, why use a useless weapon?

 

The travesty in all of this is the fact that the decision to give cappers force powers, not require they apply points to weapons (guns), while one must to even have a nerfed saber, removed one of the two unique aspects of this game, in CTF mode which in this game should be called , Bounty Hunters: Mercs with the Force.

 

Just my opinions, everyone is entitled to their own.

[Spider AL]

Although it means my running off on a canonical tangent, I have to say that I agree with what Detritic says about the eternal sabs vs. guns debate, and I've said similar things in old debates with sabreheads.

 

To me, the problem seems to be the fact that so many SW fanboys equate carrying a lightsabre with being a Jedi.

 

And of course, this is just because they think IT SI KEWWLLL!11

 

A Jedi isn't his sword. His sword isn't powered by the Force. HE is powered by the Force. A Jedi without a sword is only marginally less dangerous than a Jedi with a sword. A Jedi is a Jedi because of his mastery of the ways of the Force.

 

Anyone can wield a lightsabre, lit:

 

Qui-Gon Jinn - "Perhaps I killed a Jedi and stole it (his lightsabre) from him."

 

A lightsabre is not a magical Jedi-Only weapon, nor is it greater than a gun in killing power, as one sabre-hit can kill someone, and one blaster hit can kill someone.

 

So unless you're playing on a JvMerc server, ALL players on all servers are JEDI. Whether they carry a sword, a gun, or a corkscrew!

[Moradivh]

Okay, long post coming... shield your eyes Laz.

 

Seems this topic is moving from expansion-pack discussion to general criticism of what promod tries to do. I can understand how people write the mod off as a saberist's wet dream, something unappealing to the majority of players. I might agree if I hadn't tried the mod myself, but I think some of you underestimate the scope of ArtifeX's thought on the subject. His mod isn't trying to be one big gun nerf, or a bunch of stupid little changes that no-one but a hardcore saberist would notice.

 

There are almost limitless un-tapped gameplay options and opportunities in JO that most people take for granted, things Raven implemented but didn't polish enough to be noticed. In theory, if all of these systems functioned at top efficiency, not only would all game types be more fun, but you'd see a steady reunification of all the fragmented playing types in the community.

 

How successful ArtifeX will be is still unknown, but that's one of the things he's trying to do. He hopes the mod will be accepted by his own caste of hardcore, competative players, and that eventually the other community types will catch on as the mod evolves and gets new features.

 

Now, some have argued that ProMod couldn't appeal to the masses because it doesn't alter the game on a grand enough scale, like CS did with HL. To this I answer: give it time. ArtifeX is already building his own unique jetpack system, a new neutral force power, and soon completely new saber styles (double-bladed/twin/one-handed). He's compiling all the best multiplayer maps and skins made by the community to ensure their compatability. And if his mod takes off even a little bit, these changes might only be the beginning. I don't really mean to compare the two, but CS wasn't made in a day.

 

But is it too late? Is the JO community too weak, fragmented, and eclipsed by the more popular and epic FPS games of today? Can it be re-vitalized by some upstart saberist-turned-modder with delusions of grandeur? I don't know. But I doubt the Half-Life multiplayer community was in the best of conditions either, before CS and TFC came along. Granted, JO wasn't as initially popular as Half-Life, but who can be sure? I can't.

 

And now for the "realism" debate (heh heh). Some people think promod's approach to saber-vs-guns is unrealistic, that a Jedi Master with a rocket launcher is better than a Jedi Master with a glowstick. Whelp, there's one weakness in promod -- gunners who are absolutely set in their ways won't like the lack of force powers. But if they have even a shred of curiousity, the smallest sense of adventure, they may want to try promod's "improved" gun strength at skill level 4. That's right: guns are uber-deadly in ArtifeX's system, and can kill even more tyranically when in the right hands. And I won't even mention the jetpacks.

 

And if gunners ever feel force withdrawl while they're rocket-sniping n00bs, they can try any number of gun/force hybrids that are possible in the skill set. Class-based, like all the most popular FPS online games today, except even more versatile.

 

And let's be honest here folks: what makes JO multiplayer stand out from all the brilliant online shooters today? Is it the ho-hum maps Raven made? The somewhat-interesting gun types? The force powers that work like glorified powerups, jetpacks and weak guns? Just about every other shooter has this stuff already, in some form.

 

But what about that sword with several dozen unique moves and abilities attached to it?

 

Yeah, I'd say the lightsaber is the biggest innovation. Too bad it's only used 10% of the time in most game types. Doesn't really feel like Star Wars anymore, does it? More like some weak quake mod. So why not just play CS, or better yet Battlefield 1942, where you have all these cool vehicles and battleships and stuff? Why play JO just for the guns?

 

Get my drift? So... in one shot, ArtifeX is trying to bring the spirit of the movies back to JO multiplayer, plus make the game itself more fun and more supportive of new maps and skins, and in doing so help heal the splits in the community. And maybe, just maybe, help JO multiplayer compete with other online shooters in its own Jedi fashion.

 

Can Arti pull all this crap off? Probably not, but having played his mod and been impressed by his clarity of vision, I have a small hope.

 

And if you don't like the changes he makes, still think he's full of himself, then don't worry: it's just a mod. Vanilla JO will be there until the last of us move on to clearly better games.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh:

Seems this topic is moving from expansion-pack discussion to general criticism of what promod tries to do.

 

...

 

I don't know what thread you've been reading my friend... Nobody mentioned Promod at all in the last four posts before yours.

 

What I talked about in my previous post, and what, after concentrated reading I deemed that Det was talking about, is the constant partitioning and segregation of portions of the community by a group I term "sabreheads." Those are people who believe that only Jedi should use the sabre, and Jedi should not use guns. They say that those who use guns... are not Jedi.

 

In my post I was pointing out the canonical and realism flaw in the argument of the sabreheads, and Detritic appeared to be pointing out the technical and game-related flaws in their arguments.

 

These concepts have nothing to do with Promod IMO... You may be a little too ready to leap to the defence of the thing, when it isn't currently being debated, much less attacked.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Moradivh

...

Get my drift? So... in one shot, ArtifeX is trying to bring the spirit of the movies back to JO multiplayer, plus make the game itself more fun and more supportive of new maps and skins, and in doing so help heal the splits in the community. And maybe, just maybe, help JO multiplayer compete with other online shooters in its own Jedi fashion.

...

 

At last. Someone understands why I'm doing this.

 

I'm speechless.

[Moradivh]

These concepts have nothing to do with Promod IMO... You may be a little too ready to leap to the defence of the thing, when it isn't currently being debated, much less attacked.

I was worried I'd be instantly accused of that. But ArtifeX's motives in this argument are so closely tied to his mod that I thought talking about them couldn't hurt. I admit you never made a direct attack, but it seemed an inevitable clash if you were to continue these endless rebuttles. Besides, you guys DID bring up the "realistic inferiority" of the saber, out of the blue, a statement which flies in the face of promod whether or not it was an "official" attack. So why can't I try to shed some light on ArtifeX's point of view? Which of us was more outside of the debate?

 

I like try to address the undercurrents of any misunderstanding during an argument. Debates tend to be rather ineffective otherwise, in my experience. I also have strong opinions on this subject. Accuse me of being overly defensive if it makes you happy. I won't deny it, but neither will I wholly aknowledge it.

 

Whew, I'm in the wrong line of work. I oughta be a politician.

 

I'm speechless.

Being a cowardly lurker most of the time, speechlessness is something I respect greatly.

 

Anyways, good luck. I mean that. Get Promod back out there pronto, I'm getting bored with vanilla. Less talk more mod.

 

- Blind Moradin

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh:

ArtifeX's motives in this argument are so closely tied to his mod that I thought talking about them couldn't hurt.

 

Certainly you can post what you wish, but not only did you erroneously leap to the defence of Promod when it was not under attack, you labelled myself and Detritic as attackers of Promod. This is unacceptable and misrepresentative of my views, and probably Detritic's as well, though I can't speak for him.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh:

I admit you never made a direct attack

 

By that you imply that I made an indirect attack? Keep your angry-hat and your combative terminology for another day my friend, this is a civil debate, not a flame war. And, I don't think reactionary posts of the type you've been making help to keep it as civil as it currently is. You may have been aware of that before you made your post of course, but regardless I will inform you of the fact.

 

The merits of Promod have never been the subject of this thread. Also, the debate over the question of whether the sabre should rival the guns in power is an old one, older than Promod itself.

 

Furthermore game modifcations are mediums in which the mod-maker has the right to pursue whatever line of game balance he or she wishes, and it would be not only pointless but idiotic to debate its merits. It is as Artifex wishes it to be, and that is the end of the story.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh:

Besides, you guys DID bring up the "realistic inferiority" of the saber, out of the blue, a statement which flies in the face of promod whether or not it was an "official" attack.

 

You may not have been here to witness the many flame wars and debates that raged over the balance of power between the sabre and the gun, and whether the Jedi carries only a lightsabre or not, and whether Kyle Katarn is a real Jedi, all of which occurred immediately after the release of JO, and you may not be aware that similar debates went on in the days of JK1. Regardless, it's an old debate.

 

As for the more recent advent of Promod, Promod is what Promod is. It is not an issue for debate, as stated above.

 

If I can be perfectly honest at this moment, I'd like to ask you to calm down. Your opinions may well be strong and you have a right to them, but you don't have to express them in terms so strong as to cause offence, which you have done so far.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh:

Accuse me of being overly defensive if it makes you happy. I won't deny it, but neither will I wholly aknowledge it. Whew, I'm in the wrong line of work. I oughta be a politician.

 

Mm-hmm. If you can find anything positive in the type of peculiarly transparent and yet annoyingly obtuse behaviour practiced by politicians, then your sigline nickname may be more apt than you realise, and I'd recommend that you re-evaluate your view of the people in question.

[Moradivh]

Ouch, that was harsh. Attacking my nicknames now?

 

Anyways, I don't feel like playing this game of endless quotes and rebuttles, as you'd surely drown me and everyone else eventually.

 

I hate to say it Spider, but people don't care that much about what you have to say, not enough to keep reading chapter after chapter of your private views on game patches. Not even the overly-threatened crazies like me really care that much.

 

But there are worse things you could do, and I'm honestly not angry. In fact, at the beginning of this thread I agreed totally with your views. And if we ever met I'd guess you'd be a pleasant, enlightened person. Unfortunately, for some reason you've locked someone I know (who is rather busy at the moment) into a tireless, grinding, vaporous debate with no end in sight and no reconciliation that I can perceive, and I'll risk the assumption that few people besides you are enjoying themselves.

 

In any case, I don't feel like getting trapped in the same game, so my presence on this thread ends here. Have fun picking apart and twisting my words at your pleasure, but please satisfy your ego with having the last word and mend this stupid argument soon.

 

And no hard feelings. We all got our eccentricities, if I spelled that right.

 

- Blind Moradin

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Moradivh

Ouch, that was harsh. Attacking my nicknames now?

 

The only person who has attacked anything in this post is you, my son. It would have been remiss of me not to point out the curious coincidence of you calling yourself "blind" in your sig, and actually exhibiting a certain short-sightedness at the same time.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh

Anyways, I don't feel like playing this game of endless quotes and rebuttles, as you'd surely drown me and everyone else eventually.

 

I empathise, some people can't function in a drawn out debate without either losing sight of their original purpose or becoming childish and unpleasant through frustration.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh

I'm honestly not angry.

 

This is a good thing. anyone who becomes emotionally involved in an online debate is behaving foolishly, to say the least.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh

Unfortunately, for some reason you've locked someone I know (who is rather busy at the moment) into a tireless, grinding, vaporous debate

 

Short of tying them to a chair, there is no way to "lock" someone in a debate, my friend. Either one debates, or one does not. People may feel some sort of imperative to continue a debate due to emotional involvement, but as stated above, emotional involvement in online debate is misguided.

 

And anyway, I'm not going to go into exactly who's kept this debate going for as long as it has. If someone poses a question to me, of course I'll answer it, and if someone misrepresents my arguments or statements- as you have done- I will put the record straight. Up to now many people, including yourself, have seemed eager to put their oar into the water, so I don't think I can quite carry the can for "forcing everyone to debate."

 

Originally posted by Moradivh

I'll risk the assumption that few people besides you are enjoying themselves.

 

Up until your involvement, I found this thread to be without fail mature and informative. I think there's a lot of constructive things to be gained from a discussion like this, so I'm afraid you have completely the wrong attitude to appreciate debates of this kind. This thread has given me an insight into the views of others that I simply couldn't have gained otherwise. And I've made my views clear enough so that others hopefully have the same understanding of them, and the views they represent.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh

people don't care that much about what you have to say, not enough to keep reading chapter after chapter of your private views on game patches.

 

Ah, you can speak for "people" at large can you. That's quite a gift.

 

Regardless, I have no doubt you're correct for most people... but what's important is that we all express our views so that those of us with the maturity to listen and to take those views into account, can appreciate them, and learn from them.

 

Originally posted by Moradivh

In any case, I don't feel like getting trapped in the same game, so my presence on this thread ends here. Have fun picking apart and twisting my words at your pleasure, but please satisfy your ego with having the last word and mend this stupid argument soon.

 

My my, what a mature "parting shot" to use your own combative terminology. Most distasteful.

[Moradivh]

**bows**

 

Touche.

[Spider AL]

Yet another post, and this time you use a fencing term? Must everything be a battle with people like you?

 

[ksk h2o]

and all this relates HOW to the expansion pack? and releasing the necessary tools to the modders for their work not to get nerfed?

[opusvi]

First of all I should lay out that I'm one of those poor, unskilled players whom you have made it clear, is imminently not qualified to have an opinion on serious and critical issues of gameplay.

 

I love JK2. I think it's the best 3-d adventure game I've enjoyed since DS9: The Fallen. However, I have a hard enough time beating the game on the second difficulty level without quick-save. Still, developing cat-like reflexes is not an option I have and spending five or six hours a week honing my skills so I could precisely execute four succesive saber swipes to end in a perfect fatality or whatever.

 

I tried MP for a bit and needless to say I died, early and often. I don't see the allure behind repeatedly getting blown up in stupid nonsense games like CTF or FFA. Honestly, what's the big deal about getting a beatdown from (or delivering one to) an annoying 12 year old or smug 32 year old in the current MP? Someone pointed out to me that after the patches, the weapons, lightsabers, and force powers have been changed to balance out the blah blah blah... So what? That would mean I last 30 seconds while chasing a guy with a Ysalamander or whatever?

 

Unless there's a subscription fee or an aspect of their business model that I'm not familiar with, LA charges ~ $50 USD of your purchase of JK2 of which they likely see a substantial profit. There is no additional software purchase for MP; the patches are free, the servers are free. Why would they care what you liked or didn't like about it's MP gameplay? Why would they even care if you're not going to play MP anymore? This isn't like UT2000, a game specifically designed for MP competition. It's a stand-alone first player adventure in the Star Wars universe.

 

Does anyone honestly think that LA will lose a significant number of first-time customers or even second-time expansion pack buyers based on some self-proclaimed elitist expert's derision of the MP experience? The number of "master saberists" or whatever surely can't make more than a small percentage of the total number of people who purchase this game. Heck, until I see some stats, I'll wager that the very percentage of JK2 owners who've even played MP (like SUV owners who take them off-road) is a minority of itself.

 

And even if it's a sizeable minority, for every disgruntled Jedi Master there's any number of young kids born well after the original trilogy who will buy the game and expansion pack regardless of your opinion or mine. If they redid MP so that everyone ran on the celing with force speed and double-edged stun batons I still wouldn't play it because it's hard to get excited behind ctf, which frankly wasn't even all that much fun in elementary school to begin with.

 

The expansion pack will come out in a year or so with four or five average to good new levels and it will sell quite nicely. Perhaps not as well as JK2 itself, but respectably nonetheless. Whatever changes they make to MP won't amount to squat since it will still be a pointless competition of who's got the fastest fingers.

 

If LA & Raven truly wanted to get the most out of MP they would set up a giant server system and run movie-inspired objective-based scenarios with huge teams such as putting down a rebel insurrection, stopping a commando alliance infiltration into an imperial base or something along those lines. There would be specific player classes, abilities, and weapons, limitations on the number of jedis each side could have, strategy-based objectives etc... Heck, an AOTC conversion sounds pretty darn good on paper.

 

LA could then charge on a subscription basis or an access pass per scenario format like pay-per-view. "Friday at 9:30 EST join hundreds of players from both sides to reenact the attack on Hoth!" Sure, I'd cough up money to be a part of that, as long as there weren't stormtroopers force gripping rebel commanders or something equally inane.

 

Yet this concept (and escapist level of authenticity) is what will become a large draw for SW: Galaxies. Unless combat turns out to be terrible in Galaxies and action-seeking subscribers flee in droves, LA has no reason to care that John Doe can no longer impale the flag carrier backwards and upside down as a result of the latest JK2 patch.

 

The only argument that I would accept is if each person who is most adept and proficient at the game could through their opinions, truly persuade a number of people to buy or not buy copies of JK2. Ironically enough, I as one of the mediocre players with some disposable income, can afford to do one better. I bought several copies of JK2 to give out to people for their birthdays or whatnot. I will probably stuff some stockings for my console friends come the holiday season as well.

 

Their revenue stream from JK2 is a result of one-time (or in some cases like mine, multiple-time) purchases of the game. If anyone actually come up with a good enough idea with enough draw, quality, and interest to become a popular mod with substantial following it like CS for HL, will get yanked by LA and their cadre of lawyers, sued for damages, and worse yet, have their ideas ripped off for use in an expansion pack or sequel. LA doesn't have to lift a finger to help out mod-makers and they don't have to care. Modders everywhere should be happy they're fending off whiny people who want watered down MP instead of cease and desist court orders.

[Moradivh]

Wow, that's the best speech I've ever read here. Kudos. Wish I could verify your last paragraph, but I don't know the intrigue behind famous mods like Counter-Strike and couldn't give an opinion.

 

Okay, I'm gone for real this time, no fooling, just wanted to applaud opusvi's post. I guess this thread isn't so hopeless after all.

[MrCrusher]

If Lucas Arts is intending to release an expansion then it would be a Huge mistake for them not to take a serious look at ProMods implementation of saber combat - and expand on that.

 

I suspect Raven only gets paid so many man/hours to work on JK2 and that is most likely why there is lukewarm interest for further enhancements and lackluster patching. The folks that coded the game probably do not share in its profits. Fortunately for both Raven and LA someone came along and fixed the game - FOR FREE - at least ProMod demonstrates to them how it should be done.

 

I've been around ...played all pc melee/combat games since Die by the Sword, only two games stand out - Raven's Heretic 2 and JK2/ProMod. These two play with almost identical tempo and control. If Raven does get coding again on JK2 it would be wise of them to talk to the small dedicated H2 community and the JK2 community as well. They would most likely find both communities saying the same things.

 

It would be nice to see everyone playing a ProMod/H2 like combat system in the next expansion.

[Lazarous]

Opusvi is in many ways right. We, the multiplayer community of jk2, are an extremely small percentage of the total number of people who bought it (and becoming smaller by every indication). Furthermore, jk2 is not really a game that sells a lot based on its multiplayer component...most people play the single player campaign and are quite happy with it. Lots of new sales almost certainly are not going to be generated because its multi component gets an overhaul and becomes 'fun' to us grognards again.

 

 

Despite these facts, raven made 2 patches the gameplay of the multiplayer component already. Not only that, it seemed to make these changes based on the gripes and bitching expoused on this very board, by many of these very people. It overreacted, in the eyes of many, but still...things changed because of discussions here.

 

 

Now, i know of only one game that actually started getting more sales because of the mods associated with it - half life. Many other games have some very nice mods, but in general this doesn't catch the eye of the vast gaming public. I fully expect this to be the case here, even though promod makes great strides towards creating a very comprehensive and fun multiplayer combat system.

 

 

However - I don't KNOW that this will be the case. It may be that promod catches hold of many peoples imagination, starts spreading like wildfire and then eclipses counterstrike in the number of servers running it and the number of people playing it. Likely? No, but for a company to willingly throw away that sort of extra revenue possibility because it didn't want to make the MINIMAL outlay of resources, such as the things artifex mentioned - animation source code, multiplayer source code, stuff like that - is just acting...well, stupid is too weak a word for it.

 

 

Laz

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Lazarous:

for a company to willingly throw away that sort of extra revenue possibility because it didn't want to make the MINIMAL outlay of resources, such as the things artifex mentioned - animation source code, multiplayer source code, stuff like that - is just acting...well, stupid is too weak a word for it.

 

Well absolutely Laz, but you must remember that big, ponderous corporations like LEC are run not by imaginative executives... but by accountants. And accountants are misers, not to put too fine a point on it. "Dog in the manger" is the order of the day, etc.

 

Originally posted by opusvi:

Whatever changes they make to MP won't amount to squat since it will still be a pointless competition of who's got the fastest fingers.

 

Opusvi, good post, I agree with most of it as you may have guessed... But from one decrepit oldie to another I have to say... the buzz one gets from winning these games through skill is unparalleled. Well, let's put it this way, it's the best buzz you can get while fully dressed. Also, I recall that once, one of the best clans in the UK (I think it was Quake 3...) [4K], declared that they only practiced for a few hours at weekends, so it's not about how much you train at the game, it's about how much you concentrate while training. And there's always the hope in the back of the gamer's mind that a game they like will become a pro-gaming standard, so that they can have a shot at making money from playing it. Those are some of the benefits.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by opusvi

First of all I should lay out that I'm one of those poor, unskilled players whom you have made it clear, is imminently not qualified to have an opinion on serious and critical issues of gameplay.

...

 

I'm not arguing that you need to be possessed of great manual dexterity to have what I consider a valid opinion on jk2's game balance. I'm saying that you need to have a thorough understanding of the game. The best method for finding someone who has a good understanding of a game is to find someone who has practiced enough to become successful in a proven tournament structure.

 

i.e.: If I wanted to talk to someone about Quake 1 game balance, I'd go talk to Thresh.

 

Keep in mind that game sales can be affected by the quality of mods available. I assure you that Counterstrike sold many, many copies of Halflife, just as Urban Terror probably did for Unreal Tournament. Enough so that they released CS and Urban Terror as their own retail products to capitalize on it.

 

My main argument is that, if an expansion is released, then the full toolset needs to be released so that mods aren't cut off at the knees. This will mean real money to LA in the long run if quality mods are produced.

[ksk h2o]

pffff, what a load of crap that was...

 

justifying poorly done SW by thaking the dinosaur industry's point of view.

 

wake up

 

We're supposed to be the consumers and DEMAND.

 

Mod makers are building the future of gaming.

 

And it looks like in this thread they are being told: "No, I like paying 50 bucks for buggy broken software and I dont care If you guys innovate, create and make something horrible into something fun for some people. I'll just say f*ck you and your work, I want to spend more on something thats even more broken, because I can. I'll also opt for protecting the suits that sold me this mod of a two year old game for money rather than back up people that are making it for free with not even the tools to do it properly. I'll also challenge your reasons for modding in the first place even if that has no merit whatsoever."

 

You guys have managed to sum up the horrible behavior of todays gaming industry and make it sound OK. Sorry but the defense of this point of view, coming from the consumers and not the companies, is baffling for me to listen to.

 

And what a horrible thing to say was those last few sentences Spider Al. You have obviously strayed far from the topic and have sucessfully replaced what gaming is all about with moneymaking.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

And what a horrible thing to say was those last few sentences Spider Al. You have obviously strayed far from the topic and have sucessfully replaced what gaming is all about with moneymaking.

 

Not only are you out of line, you obviously didn't bother to read my post thoroughly enough to understand it.

 

You, like many people before you, seem to reflexively confuse stating the obvious truth with supporting the unjust status quo.

 

Because people SEE that LEC doesn't care about its customers, doesn't mean they SUPPORT LEC. Just because people can see that most players aren't interested in the deeper aspects of gaming, doesn't mean they themselves shun those aspects.

 

And the question of whether and how much LEC cares about its customers is very much part of the topic being discussed.

 

As for the pro-gaming moneymaking statement, it's absolutely true and just... and rightly so. What could be better than making money out of something you already enjoy? Making money from something doesn't take the fun out of the game. In fact, it often adds an adrenal spice that keeps players interested when they might otherwise have moved on.

 

So just save your angry-hat for another day my son. I'm sure you're all tense over LEC's behaviour, but just take it out on them, mmkay? Don't look for enemies where there are none, just because you can't fight the real ones. Nobody here loves LEC.

 

Originally posted by ArtifeX:

Keep in mind that game sales can be affected by the quality of mods available. I assure you that Counterstrike sold many, many copies of Halflife

 

As I've said above in this thread, this did nothing for Half-Life itself. There was no explosion in HL vanilla player-numbers due to CStrike's success. CS deserved to succeed because it was great, but it wasn't the saviour of HL. It was only the saviour of CS.

 

Originally posted by ArtifeX:

My main argument is that, if an expansion is released, then the full toolset needs to be released so that mods aren't cut off at the knees. This will mean real money to LA in the long run if quality mods are produced.

 

Indeed, it would be great if the toolset was released, it would help mods and mod-makers. However an expansion could have a positive effect even if the toolset was not released.