On the possibilities of an expansion pack:

[ksk h2o]

Uh Vader?

 

I'm not your son.

 

You and I obviously do not share the same concepts on gaming and moneymaking. I try to respect other peoples philosophies, but I wouldn't stereotype and apply a particular philosophy to all intense gamers, which was what that last post did.

 

Stating the obvious truth, in this thread, has turned into a means of discouragement. Rather than saying "this is how it is, and this is what wee need to challenge" we are being told; "this is how it is, so theres no point in fighting it... your cause is hopeless... uh... my... son"

 

Read my post whichever way you want it; either as a tongue-in-cheek smirking pointer or as a yelling two year old's rants, but dont go telling me I am "out of line" becaue you'd be taking yourself way too seriously.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL

...

As I've said above in this thread, this did nothing for Half-Life itself. There was no explosion in HL vanilla player-numbers due to CStrike's success. CS deserved to succeed because it was great, but it wasn't the saviour of HL. It was only the saviour of CS.

I was attempting to link sales of a game to the availability of good mods for same. I wasn't talking about CS increasing the number of players for HL DM. LA's accountants wouldn't give two sh*ts whether the sale came from someone wanting to play the official version or a mod--it's still a sale.

Indeed, it would be great if the toolset was released, it would help mods and mod-makers. However an expansion could have a positive effect even if the toolset was not released.

 

A positive effect for you; a negative for anyone playing or creating mods.

[FatalStrike]

Atri is correct when he state that mods can help a games money making potential. The more you get out of a game the more likely you are to look forward to future games made by the same company. I for example am frothing at the mouth for some upcoming FPS games, because of the experince I have had with them in the past. I will put any future Raven-LEC joint projects on the bottom of my list in the future, simply because I know that I will get more from other games then I will from anything these two make in the future.

 

Spider is correct when he says that mods did nothing for half life. However he didn't go into the whole "what will customers do in the future" line of thought. He is also correct in stating that an expansion would have a positive effect on the JKII community as a whole, even if it doesn't for Mod makers. That being said I don't believe any postive effect can last without the release of crucial tools.

 

I will also point out that Spider is not support LEC money crazed ways he was stating them as a reality that must be considered when addressing certain questions.

 

Now for heavens sake lets spell out what the conclusions of this thread are so we can end this circular discussion.

 

 

1- Expansion pack would be good.

 

2- Expansion pack + tools for Mod makers would be better

 

3- LEC is a company that has paid us little attention as of late.

 

4- FatalStrike is waiting for Unreal 2

 

5- You will also buy Unreal 2

 

OK time for coffee.

[opusvi]

Well, I wouldn't say that I particularly love LEA right now but I'll revise my opinion when I get my hands on the new, ever so tasty Sam & Max game. While I don't think I'd particularly want to invite any of them over to my house for dinner, I sure wish I could trade my flagging AOLTW shares for stock in anything Lucas-related.

 

KSK, if you want to make a more cogent defense of mods you ought to post something more relevant than some convoluted, whiny, technopunk, marxist diatribe about "scratch" software. Although I shouldn't be doing your research for you, articles like the following support the viability of mods more effectively:

 

http://www.redherring.com/mag/issue96/1370019137.html

 

http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,43489%7C2,FF.html

 

 

Artifex is right in pointing out that CS shipped many boxes of HL. But Half-Life was an average game who only benefitted from an above average mod, CS to extend its expiration date. Spider is right in pointing out that CS survived on its own merit and only incidentally helped HL. Because again, HL was a essentially a paint-by-numbers game. Thinking man's Quake? Er...No. More like Quake with big nasty bugs in it. That canadian guy who made CS in his spare time didn't even charge for his mod and doesn't to this day. Do you know how he makes his money? By essentially pressuring Valve to pay him for doing work on CS due to the profits he brings in for HL sales.

 

Mod makers might possibly be the future of gaming, but right now they're nothing but an amusement. All this talk of "keeping the community alive" doesn't change the fact that JK2 expansion packs will sell by the truckload. JK2 sells for SP first and MP as a distant second. SW fans who want a better MP experience will just have to wait until SW:Galaxies.

 

As a matter of fact, I don't particularly like paying $50 for the average game even if I can afford it, and I'm sorry if that's too steep for your pockets. But that's what it takes for companies to recoup their losses. You may not like the business model but that doesn't change anything about it any more than complaining about snow makes it go away.

 

I'm not telling anyone to go and "f" themselves. I think that in all truth, Artifex and his contemporaries probably have good reasons, motivation and means to make their projects come to life. But for the most part, and I speak for the majority of game buyers in this regard, I'm not all that interested in what they have to sell/rent/give away for free. On his own description of ProMOD, Artifex clearly states that his "is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities."

 

Well, being one of those MAJORITY of players with decidely "lesser abilities", who doesn't like MP to begin with, why is it that I'm supposed to be popping cartwheels about his idea exactly? Not that I don't respect Artifex's obvious skill and technical know-how and such, but this is just not something I'm ever going to want. Will most n00bs want to download a mod that will allow old-timers like him and Spyder to more easily cream them in MP? Do you think they'd ever want to pay for that?

 

 

(http://www.3dactionplanet.com/features/q3dmhellchick/small/)

 

 

Actually, I don't think that challenging someone's reasons for modding is wholly without merit. In fact, I think it's essential to realize that it's not. I mean, you're basically taking someone else's intellectual property and fudging with it (for better or worse) and then distributing it as your own work. How is that different from re-writing the end to a book because you like it better and then give out copies to anyone who wanted it? Or from covering a song from an artist because you didn't like the way they sang and then giving it away for free? It's copyright violation, trademark infringement, and arguably steps all over reverse-engineering laws and standards. Oh, but this is done under the auspices of the companies who make them. Ah, well... If Raven et al are going to look the other way while you rip off their product then I suppose it's all right...

 

On principle, do I approve of mods? Short answer is yes with an if and the long answer is no, with a but. From a player perspective, heck yes if you can provide something interesting to me, like the Battle of Hoth or AOTC conversions. However, if it was my company or I was a shareholder, of course not. But if I can inherently profit from them then I'd make an exception. Telling me that nasty, bad capitalist scum make the world a nasty, bad place to live isn't going to change the fact that it's the way things are.

 

I doubt Artifex or anyone else would truly turn down a big fat advance from LEA and we could only hope that he gets an offer and has the opportunity to prove me wrong. But he's still making an unrequested, unauthorized, voluntary amount of extraordinary work on his own. Success alone should in fact be measured by the fact that he's not being sued. If people like Promod and it does well, then great more power to him.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that an expansion pack which makes mods harder (or even prohibitive) to put out will doubtlessly sell 100K's of copies. CS ripped off HL which in turn mooched from it to make profits. But HL was a mediocre game at worst and needed that shot in the arm to stay afloat. Lest we forget, this is indeed STAR WARS. Trust me when I say this, with their history, brand name recognition, multi-million dollar marketing and product placement, SW can do just fine without modders. JK2 sells not necessarily on the strength of its games as much as on the strength of STAR WARS.

 

 

Point being that little 14 year-old Johnnie Gamer from Riverdale, Missouri will still hop on over to Walmart and buy JK2: Super Mario Jedi or whatever LEA decides to sell us next. Whether it's derivative, too linear, boring, buggy, is completely besides the point. George Lucas could crap in a brightly colored box, shrinkwrap it, slap a $49.99 sticker on it, call it an expansion pack and I can assure you that droves of eager fanboys will rush to stores to get one. You may not like it, but again that's the way it is. It's a fact KSK. The majority of us who are stupid mindless drones of the evil capitalist hegemony (or whatever your commie epithet du jour is), will still buy into their twisted schemes of oligarchic marketplace domination and blah blah blah...

 

However, if anyone can tell me of a good, i.e. professional quality, mod (preferably SP) that I'd possibly be interested in, I'll definitely look it over and see if it's worthwhile. Heck, if it's something good enough to be in an expansion pack, I promise to PayPal the author for it.

[ArtifeX]

Man, another entertaining post from opusvi! Keep 'em coming!

 

One quick thing though:

 

It really isn't unlawful to make mods. It's only unlawful to make mods and then sell them for profit without the consent of the company (LA).

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

I try to respect other peoples philosophies,

 

Ah yes, because posting something like, umm:

 

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

pffff, what a load of crap that was...

 

Is obviously respectful of the point of view of others, isn't it.

 

Or not. Frankly, out of line.

 

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

but I wouldn't stereotype and apply a particular philosophy to all intense gamers, which was what that last post did.

 

Paranoid. The last sentences in my post were explanatory of the reasons one might wish to become "expert" at a game, for the edification of Opusvi who claimed not to see the benefit of becoming expert at the game. I listed some possible benefits, hence the last words "those are some of the benefits." All you need to do is read more carefully... Almost everything you've posted in reaction to a 'perceived stereotyping' has been of no use to either you or anyone else.

 

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

Stating the obvious truth, in this thread, has turned into a means of discouragement. Rather than saying "this is how it is, and this is what wee need to challenge" we are being told; "this is how it is, so theres no point in fighting it...

 

Nobody has said anything of the sort, quite frankly. And just because people haven't flocked quickly enough to your particular brand of fire n' brimstone "fight LEC on the beaches" banner, doesn't make them conchie pacifist traitors now, does it?

 

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

Read my post whichever way you want it; either as a tongue-in-cheek smirking pointer or as a yelling two year old's rants, but dont go telling me I am "out of line"

 

Actually, you're still pretty much out of line.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

I was attempting to link sales of a game to the availability of good mods for same. I wasn't talking about CS increasing the number of players for HL DM. LA's accountants wouldn't give two sh*ts whether the sale came from someone wanting to play the official version or a mod--it's still a sale.

 

Of course this is correct Arti. What I was remarking on was the fact that regardless of whether mods succeed or fail, they are rarely the "saviours" of the games whose engines they use. If a 'CS for JO' was created, it wouldn't save JO, just as CS didn't save HL. Thus, what is good for JO mods is not inextricably linked to what is good for JO.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

A positive effect for you; a negative for anyone playing or creating mods.

 

Well a positive effect for me and many others, but the important point is that what is good for modmakers is not necessarily good for anyone else. JO players, for example. So the reverse of your statement is also true.

 

An expansion could favour us both, only one of us, or neither of us. But the possibility that it may have a positive effect outweighs any such risks, since both our communities seem to be fading away right now.

 

Opus, once again I agree with most of your points.

 

And Fatal, you're good at this succint mediation thingy! Keep it up.

[ksk h2o]

Actually there is a large difference between respecting philosophies and respecting everything said. The post I was refefing to as a "load of crap" was mainly the post of opusvi which had mostly to do with it was acceptable for todays companies to act in the illogical and self destructive methods of operation (hence the industry-wide crisis and bankruptcies). So that had nothing to do with any philosophy that could be respected. I dont know if I need to write novels for posts like you do in order to make my posts clearer but just for the sake of clarity and redundancy: "illogical and self destructive methods of business" (I quoted myself, yes, :)saved you the work there) can not qualify as a philosophy which I could respect, just like the link of the scratchware manifesto: can only be be classified as propaganda and aggresive activism and not as a philosophy either. So my comments of the "load of crap" were directed at such. If it was "stating the obvious" and nothing else then it was quite a useless and redundant post anyway. Stating the obvious is by its very definition redundant and pointless.

 

People are entitled to shoot down the activist link I had posted. And them not agreeing with it has nothing to do with them being, what was it "conchie pacifists," the reason for which I had posted the link is the only point of criticism here not wheather or not they agree with it.

 

 

And yes stating the obvious truth was used as discouragement in this thread, there aren't many reasons one would state the obvious as it would be a waste of time.

 

"paranoid, out of line, ..." I suggest we take direct attacks to character and behavoir to a private channel since these points of view and weather or not you think I'm out of "your line" bare no significance whatsoever to me.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Of course this is correct Arti. What I was remarking on was the fact that regardless of whether mods succeed or fail, they are rarely the "saviours" of the games whose engines they use. If a 'CS for JO' was created, it wouldn't save JO, just as CS didn't save HL. Thus, what is good for JO mods is not inextricably linked to what is good for JO.

Come on man, don't argue minutiae. You know what I'm getting at here.

Well a positive effect for me and many others, but the important point is that what is good for modmakers is not necessarily good for anyone else. JO players, for example. So the reverse of your statement is also true.

 

An expansion could favour us both, only one of us, or neither of us. But the possibility that it may have a positive effect outweighs any such risks, since both our communities seem to be fading away right now.

...

 

You make me weary...and remind me of some philosophy majors that I've known that will argue until they're blue in the face just because they enjoy it. :/

 

Your arguments are extremely anti-mod. That's what got me started on this whole argument in the first place. You don't care about how the mod community fares because you've spent all of your time mastering the vanilla game, and are probably very insecure about whether your skillset will transfer over into mods if the mods become more popular than your current game. This is compounded by the fact that ProMod is aimed directly at serious, competitive players and the tournaments they participate in. You don't want this to happen, so you're here in the forums trying throw support behind an expansion pack that would be released without tools so that your flagging official version of the game will get a much needed shot in the arm. At the same time, this would cripple mods and mod-makers and thereby forcing players back into the official version if they want to play JO anymore at all. This would be a best-case scenario for you.

 

Were you truly as magnanimous as you're trying to make yourself seem, you would have stopped this argument long ago by throwing your support behind an expansion pack that would be good for all players and modders, not just you and your ilk. You have stated numerous times that you care nothing for the mod community, and only want to see an increase of players for the regular game. Your attitude is one of one-sidedness and malice towards a group of people who have proven that they care much more about the future of the game than you do (witness the donation of months of mod-maker's time--for no pecuniary return, nor promise of one). We are fixing and expanding on the community, while your influence is one myopia and selfishness.

 

I truly hope that no one in a position to control the fate of jk2 has read your posts and agrees with you.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I'm relying on an expansion in order to achieve my modding aims. You see Artifex, your arguments are extremely biased, you only actually care about the multiplayer. JK1 was a great game because it had awesome MP as well as awesome SP.

 

Now, believe it or not if Raven were to be the ones to make an expansion there is a good chance they would use non-compiled data for some of the singleplayer game. What's so good about this? Well it means a greater proportion of the singleplayer game would be moddable, allowing for more unique singleplayer mission.

 

Lets look at this even more, MOTS expanded on JK1s cog verbs, adding more functions and generally allowing a lot more customization, the MOTS engine allows quite a lot of enhancements such as extra weapons, greater capacity for player-input etc. Did these enhancements kill the JK1 modding community? NO. Why should they?

 

How is an expansion pack going to affect the JK1 base, an expansion would likely be a seperate game much in the same way that MOTS was, which merely requires the JK2 cd. Within a few months of an expansion release, all copies of JK2 would be bundled with the expansion. I honestly don't see the problem.

 

The vanilla JK2 players are accused of being uneasy about having to transfer our skill to a different play-type, this is probably true. But it seems like the modding community (if Artifex's view is truly representative of it) is afraid of a little bit of code debugging and tweaking in the MINOR POSSIBILITY that an expansion makes changes to the base code. Modders believe that JK2 editing has developed to such an extent that it would suffer from IMPROVEMENTS to the game engine and code? Reality Check: There have been zero revolutionary mods for JK2, with the possible exception of Hydroball were it to still be in development. Raven aren't so evil that they would make all old mods completely incompatible with new code.

 

TAKE A CHANCE.

[MrCrusher]

Opusvi,

 

I'm not telling anyone to go and "f" themselves. I think that in all truth, Artifex and his contemporaries probably have good reasons, motivation and means to make their projects come to life. But for the most part, and I speak for the majority of game buyers in this regard, I'm not all that interested in what they have to sell/rent/give away for free. On his own description of ProMOD, Artifex clearly states that his "is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities."

 

Well, being one of those MAJORITY of players with decidely "lesser abilities", who doesn't like MP to begin with, why is it that I'm supposed to be popping cartwheels about his idea exactly? Not that I don't respect Artifex's obvious skill and technical know-how and such, but this is just not something I'm ever going to want. Will most n00bs want to download a mod that will allow old-timers like him and Spyder to more easily cream them in MP? Do you think they'd ever want to pay for that?

 

For someone who loves to here themselves talk, you aught to take some time to make sense.

 

A game without competition is nothing more than a pillow fight - a whole lot of puffing and fluffing (kinda like your last post). Online gaming is 99.9% competition nothing more - nothing less. ProMod is primarily intending to improve the competitive quality of JK2, thus the game overall. Improving JK2 is in the best interests of moders, developers and ultimately gamers alike.

 

And please stop presuming that you are speaking for the Majority of gamers. You speak for yourself only. Using presumptuous qualifiers to prop-up your argument is feeble to say the least.

 

You seem to have blurred the lines between rationalization, pontification, presumption and blatant supposition.... In all honesty that's an achievement in itself.

 

Take this not as a flame but as merely constructive criticism from an average gamer that does not wish you to be his gaming representative ;)

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

I'm relying on an expansion in order to achieve my modding aims. You see Artifex, your arguments are extremely biased, you only actually care about the multiplayer. JK1 was a great game because it had awesome MP as well as awesome SP.

This is completely untrue. When I call for "all tools" to be released, I'm talking about the single player source as well.

Now, believe it or not if Raven were to be the ones to make an expansion there is a good chance they would use non-compiled data for some of the singleplayer game. What's so good about this? Well it means a greater proportion of the singleplayer game would be moddable, allowing for more unique singleplayer mission.

 

Lets look at this even more, MOTS expanded on JK1s cog verbs, adding more functions and generally allowing a lot more customization, the MOTS engine allows quite a lot of enhancements such as extra weapons, greater capacity for player-input etc. Did these enhancements kill the JK1 modding community? NO. Why should they?

Because if new animations were added to the expansion pack without the animation tools being released, then all jk2 mods would be utterly incapable of duplicating the features(animations) of the expansion pack. What if they added a true double-sided lightsaber stance and a dual saber stance? What if they renamed some of the existing animations? That's not some minor code fix to support the new feature. That's totally impossible without the tools.

How is an expansion pack going to affect the JK1 base, an expansion would likely be a seperate game much in the same way that MOTS was, which merely requires the JK2 cd. Within a few months of an expansion release, all copies of JK2 would be bundled with the expansion. I honestly don't see the problem.

If after 3 pages of this thread, you still don't see the problem, then I can't help you.

The vanilla JK2 players are accused of being uneasy about having to transfer our skill to a different play-type, this is probably true. But it seems like the modding community (if Artifex's view is truly representative of it) is afraid of a little bit of code debugging and tweaking in the MINOR POSSIBILITY that an expansion makes changes to the base code. Modders believe that JK2 editing has developed to such an extent that it would suffer from IMPROVEMENTS to the game engine and code? Reality Check: There have been zero revolutionary mods for JK2, with the possible exception of Hydroball were it to still be in development. Raven aren't so evil that they would make all old mods completely incompatible with new code.

 

TAKE A CHANCE.

I'm not worried about minor changes. I'm worried about impossible changes. The one I mentioned above falls into that category.

 

Argh. Have you actually read this thread? Maybe you need to reread it. Nobody here is afraid that the jk2 modding community is going to suffer from the basic game being improved through an expansion pack. What is a problem is if these improvements fall outside the capabilities of the current released toolset. That means that no current mods will be able to duplicate the new features. That will lead to many mod makers receiving emails like, "Wow, I like your mod, but I can't use the cool new saber moves from the expansion pack in it, so I never play it. Can you put those in?"

 

The mod author's answer: "Sorry, it's impossible without the animation tools."

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

You also seemed to have missed my point. You seem to equate "expansion" with "mod", now OBVIOUSLY if an expansion were released which was just a mod and had new features such as animations which can't be duplicated it might be a problem.

 

But expansions very rarely work this way, they are either standalone games or they build on the existing features of the original game.

 

So what if they add new animations? BIG DEAL. If you are really that bothered about animations decompile the model viewer and work out the algorithm which allows it to display the animations. Then work backwards and make your own rudimentary animation tool, JK1 had one after-all.

 

The problem with this community is that we keep expecting Raven or LEC to do everything for us, this community has a severe lack of ingenuity. Where are all the user-made tools to assist on mod-making?

 

What gives you this strange idea that Raven are so STUPID that they would even CONSIDER messing with the saber after the uproar after two patches. The most likely shape an expansion would take is as follows:

 

Singleplayer: New Missions/Storyline, possibly new features, force powers etc.

 

Multiplayer: New Maps, possibly a new game-type, NO GAMEPLAY CHANGES.

 

Don't you see? Just about everyone is against gameplay changes to multiplayer, that's the modders job. An expansion pack is supposed to EXPAND on what already exists without changing the basic shape of the game.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Artifex:

Come on man, don't argue minutiae. You know what I'm getting at here.

 

Actually Arti, my point was pivotal. You are constantly predicting doom and gloom effects from an expansion and despite the many and varied ways I've put my point, you still don't seem to grasp the fundamental fact that an expansion has a chance of helping the JO community. A community which is dying already. If you are interested in the JO community, I'm sure you want what's best for it.

 

If, on the other hand you're only interested in the modding side of the community, which we've already established is unlikely to help the rest of the JO community just as CS never helped the HL community... then that's rather short-sighted and provincial, isn't it.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

You make me weary...and remind me of some philosophy majors that I've known that will argue until they're blue in the face just because they enjoy it. :/

 

I wondered whether you would become slightly unpleasant, Arti... I must say I'm saddened.

 

I debate, because I believe in what I'm debating about. And frankly, as long as you are here posting replies and comments about my posts, I will continue to reply to you. If you're accusing me of delighting in argument for its own sake, then you are assuredly accusing yourself as well as you have been posting here longer than I, and your viewpoint is far more inflexible than mine.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

Your arguments are extremely anti-mod.

 

Actually mods are irrelevant to my arguments, as I've explained to you before. I don't play your mod, I don't play any mods. There are many people who don't play mods. Your portion of the community is not the whole community, nor is it the only part of the community that matters. I care about JO. That's what I care about. It is that simple.

 

I don't care about Unreal Tournament. Does that make me a bad person? No. Mods are separate from the games they use. They are different games, without the box or price tag.

 

I care... about JO.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

You don't care about how the mod community fares because you've spent all of your time mastering the vanilla game, and are probably very insecure about whether your skillset will transfer over into mods if the mods become more popular than your current game.

 

Ah, Artifex the amateur psychoanalyst. I could say "You're wrong, the reason I became the player I am is because I was willing to adapt to all patches, 1.05 would be no different, whatever its contents." But, you would probably choose not to believe me anyway. Your head, your rules, and your own prerogative.

 

Besides, I find "you only care about your own silly vanilla game you bad bad man" tack somewhat rich, coming from someone who throughout his arguments and despite a protestation to the contrary, only seems to care about how an expansion would affect his own mod.

 

Not that there's anything particularly bad about that... but there's nothing bad about caring about the vanilla game either. QED. We're both good guys.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

This is compounded by the fact that ProMod is aimed directly at serious, competitive players and the tournaments they participate in. You don't want this to happen

 

"Ahh! SPID0r si out to GET ME!!!1"

 

I realise you've spent a lot of time making your mod and expended a lot of effort to make it your vision of what the game should be like... but acting as if Promod is the only possible saviour for JO is both pre-emptive and somewhat arrogant.

 

I'm sure Promod is very good and fun, but the fact remains that it's your game. It's your interpretation of what the game should be. This does not mean it's guaranteed to improve on JO Vanilla.

 

And I'm not out to get you, btw. I have no doubt your mod is good, and deserves to succeed. But I am interested in JO vanilla.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

you're here in the forums trying throw support behind an expansion pack that would be released without tools so that your flagging official version of the game will get a much needed shot in the arm. At the same time, this would cripple mods and mod-makers and thereby forcing players back into the official version if they want to play JO anymore at all. This would be a best-case scenario for you.

 

You persist in attempting to paint me personally as some sort of mod-eating monster who hates mods and modders...

 

But for the final time, The question of mods survival is separate from the question of an expansion's merit in that the tools you want could be included in the expansion, or not, and that would not affect the expansion's effect on any other portion of the community except modders. Now it would be regrettable if modders were inconvenienced by an expansion, but since the game is dying anyway, don't you think it's worth the risk?

 

My portion of the community could be damaged by an expansion just as easily as yours could. I'm willing to take the risk, however. It's worth it.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

Were you truly as magnanimous as you're trying to make yourself seem, you would have stopped this argument long ago by throwing your support behind an expansion pack that would be good for all players and modders, not just you and your ilk.

 

Hmm. Have I, or have I not stated categorically on no less than three occasions that an expansion that favoured everyone would be an ideal situation? Yes, I have.

 

Read more carefully, please. You missed it no less than three times.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

Your attitude is one of one-sidedness and malice towards a group of people who have proven that they care much more about the future of the game than you do (witness the donation of months of mod-maker's time--for no pecuniary return, nor promise of one). We are fixing and expanding on the community, while your influence is one myopia and selfishness.

 

While mods are good and wholesome, you are not "fixing" the community. Mods are standalone products that merely use the engine as a base. To fix the community would require official sanction and official patches.

 

Nor do mod-makers care about the game more than dedicated players. Mod-makers think they can make something better or different, players play the game daily and grow very fond of it. On the other hand, players do not necessarily love the game more than mod-makers.

 

You seem to be saying that modmakers are in some way superior to other people. This is, of course, untrue. We are all equal.

 

And, sorry, but "malice?" Have I not stated categorically that since I don't play mods, I have no negative nor any very positive feelings on the matter?

 

As far as mods are concerned, I'm thoroughly neutral. Sorry if my neutrality offends you, but that's the way things are.

 

Originally posted by Artifex:

I truly hope that no one in a position to control the fate of jk2 has read your posts and agrees with you.

 

Well well, how vindictive and childish. I do not share your sentiments however, and hope that if anyone's opinions are taken into account by Raven or LEC, I hope yours are, as well as mine and everyone else's.

 

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

I suggest we take direct attacks to character and behavoir to a private channel since these points of view and weather or not you think I'm out of "your line" bare no significance whatsoever to me.

 

You confuse personal attacks with descriptions of your blatant behaviour on this forum. "what a load of crap" is a good example of insulting, though.

 

And I'm sorry, but why would I want to get involved in an argument with you in a private channel? I don't particularly enjoy reading your unpleasant posts here.

 

Originally posted by ksk h2o:

If it was "stating the obvious" and nothing else then it was quite a useless and redundant post anyway. Stating the obvious is by its very definition redundant and pointless.

 

Well actually, many people, you for instance, seem to be either wilfully or unknowingly blind to the obvious.

 

You seem to find it so threatening that you claim it's attacking you. Go fig, I certainly can't ascribe any logic to such a sentiment.

 

Detritic, good posts, I agree with most of what you say.

[zerowingzero]

Spider, from what i'm reading, you want an expansion pack, not to fix the game in particualar, but i'm sure you would, but to in effect spark new interest and new players.

But using past patches as what to expect from the future, chances are The game won't be ballanced and/or as fun as it could be.

Now you talk about taking a chance with a new expansion, in hopes that it will spark interest and raven might tweak the game in a positive way, now considering that chance, lets look at the other "chances" of patches 1.03 and 1.04 (I am calling them "chances" because they were apparently not tested well enough to be a sure thing), these may have attracted new players out of curiosity, but, how many of them stayed, and morever, how many of the previous players remained?

I am supporting mods not out of some personal reasoning, but that with mods, the game has hopes of being ballanced and fun, likes of which from a patch i don't expect to happin.

While a mod will probably won't attract as many new players as an expansion would, it would probably keep the ones that are still there.

Now the question is, do you want to attract a whole lot of new players that will be turned off by game inballances and lack of inovation over other games, or keeping the existing community frm dieing off?

[opusvi]

Crusher, I was only trying to speak from the pov of someone who does not play JK2 online on any kind of frequent basis. Were you assuming that I was speaking for the player with average skills who regardless spends at least some amount of time on JK2 MP? If that was the impression I gave, I should clear up that I wasn't. I mean to say that I was one of the majority of players with lesser abilities; I also happen not to engage in MP gameplay.

 

But I still maintain that I'm right in pointing out that the majority of JK2 owners do not in fact play online MP. If this is not indeed the case (which I doubt) then obviously my pov would be a minority. But for most JK2 players, Promod is not a vital concern. JK, for now, sells and appeals to consumers primarily on the basis of STAR WARS, not the strength or weaknesses of MP gameplay. If it had no MP gameplay, I can assure you that JK2 would have had robust sales nonetheless. Moreover, JK2 MP is free for users so LEA has little incentive to perfect it as opposed to working on SW:Galaxies which will incidentally include fighting, though hopefully not for the sole advantage of people with fast reflexes.

 

I jumped into this thread because the conversation here is mostly between hard-core gamers who by their own admission, have a far superior skill set than the average player. Some of them seem to think this makes them uniquely qualified to judge critical aspects of gameplay. I disagree. I think that goes back to what Spider was saying about making the game fun and what fun means to people. MP debates about fun don't mean much to me because I don't play.

 

I would doubtlessly agree that only someone like Artifex could possibly be qualified to decide whether or not thrusting with an open line should somehow deflect a high outside, be followed by a compound parry from the fourth position, and then have the optional right to ripost.

 

Promod is an MP mod only and will not affect the SP experience. More importantly, I fail to understand how a mod which by the author's own admission makes gameplay more demanding and benefits players who already have an edge in experience by making them more powerful and "punishes" poor players can make my SP experience of JK2 better? Frankly, I find it hard to believe that making the game's combat mechanics significantly more difficult so that an even smaller percentage of players can dominate over everyone else will have a positive effect on the community at large. That is unless of course, only the hard core gamers like Artifex and Spider are indeed meant to benefit from this.

 

I'm assuming that you instead meant to say that it benefits the game as a brand name and thus will ship more boxes of product. Well, I could see why LEA would care, but not why I should be all that concerned. My main interest is the expansion pack which is going to come out anyways and which will sell regardless of your opinion, mine or that of anyone besides some Wharton MBA in a $2000 suit who does the cost-benefit analysis. And if anyone thinks that my comment that George Lucas could crap in a box and sell it as a game product was mere hyperbole, you should pick up a copy of Force Commander.

 

If they include anything interesting in the way of MP when JK2: Kyle Kills Some Ewoks, is released then that's great for online players. And it will be even better if this coveted modmaking toolset is released, both for those who want it the vanilla MP game and and those among them who play online mods. However, it doesn't matter to JK2 buyers, like myself and many others, who do not do so.

 

Saying that 99.9% of online gaming is competition is just stating the obvious and I fail to see what it has to do with my argument. Also, more interesting question is just what is it that the other 0.01% think they're doing? Maybe some of them have indeed are indeed on a "Bedtime Battles:Pillowfighting Mod" server. I've been online for a while now and though I have six different games which I could play competitively online, I don't. I have many different reasons running the gamut from my admittedly poor skill set, poor internet connection, time limitations, lack of interesting MP gameplay, etc... It's disingenous to simply assume that the majority of JK2 players are eager to take each other's heads off online for the sheer fun of it.

 

While you didn't like my post with it's ingenious combination of "rationalization, pontification, presumption and blatant supposition", you haven't actually told me why you disagreed with them. If you honestly wanted to give me serious constructive criticism I'd really appreciate it. It could be that I'm not reading it right, but all I seem to get out of your post is that you think I'm stupid and I should shut up. Needless to say, I disagree...but that might be simply because I am in fact quite stupid and thus should indeed shut up. Hmmm...

 

If I truly loved to hear myself talk, I'd get a job in radio. Also, thank you for pointing out that your post was not, in fact, a flame. See, I was really confused about that point, since all those pejorative comments and personal attacks really threw me off for a loop. It's a good thing you cleared up that confusion for me!

[MrCrusher]

opusvi,

 

Online gamers and games are currently setting most industry trends. Most major releases are internet dependent. To presume otherwise is nonsense.

 

Actually, ProMod makes gameplay far easier, your only assuming it makes game play harder. Get a bit of playtime, then let me know what you think. Artiflex has removed randomness and luck from JK2mp and replaced it with control, intent, and cause-effect. Greater control is nothing more than efficiency and an easier time playing, thus more fun. To play ProMod you do not need fast reflexes so much as intelligent strategy. Reflexes come second to strategy. You assume to much. And it is this simple assumption of yours that leaves your opinion hollow and senseless - albeit humorous.

 

"Stupid..." did I think that?! I consider someone that has so much fun rationalizing about nothing far from stupid. To fill so much space with air is truly an art.

 

Any expansion to JK2 will most likely be single player. This thread may be much to do about nothing. If LA and Raven do touch upon JK2mp then I'll "presume" this time, or take a guess, that they'll give us online players what we want - a combat system done properly - alla ProMod - with a few new maps.

 

In all honesty I had hoped that JK2 would be an improvement on Raven's Heretic2 combat system. Many features were added but the fundamental core of the JK2 combat system fell short with many flaws. Artiflex has fixed that. I can now only hope that LA and Raven will take an honest look at these improvements.

 

Flame or no, you set yourself up when you pretend to know something you don't.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Of all the arrogant things i've seen on these forums, the previous post comes very close to topping the list.

 

Opusvi's post wasn't about Promod, it mentioned it because its a popular example nothing more, believe it or not some people's lives don't revolve around plugging Promod at every possible moment.

 

MrCrusher, your own argument is self-defeating. You say Promod makes gameplay easier, yet in the same paragraph you say that it emphasises control, accuracy and strategy. These are precisely the factors which seperate a good player from a bad one. Your argument is essentially saying it makes it easier for good players to win, which is precisely the point opusvi was making. His point was that this isn't necessarily a good thing, lower-skilled players NEED some aspect of the game to grasp onto from which they can elevate their own poorer skills.

 

As a "more skilled" player, I get increasingly frustrated by excessive use of force push and pull. But here's the thing, without this one ever-present obstacle that even the weaker players can use, the good players would just win every game without breaking a sweat. It may not be "fair" for good players that weaker players hold a lethal weapon against them no matter their skill level, but it gives the weaker players something to work with.

 

You talk about reflex and strategy, how in promod strategy takes the centre stage. What exactly is your point? Ask any "elite" player and they'll say that overall strategy plays a far more important role than the odd kill you may get from superior reflexes. I would say that my reflexes are pretty fast in terms of JK2 Guns, but I still get beaten by players with higher accuracy and better strategy. So I would say that reflexes take a 3rd place not just 2nd.

 

As it stands this "randomness and luck" talk I hear so much about means absolutely nothing to me and i'm guessing many other CTF players, we've spent a long time figuring out just when each attack works and how effective they are, i've yet to hear one complaint along the lines of "arghhh stupid randomness meant he took less damage", in fact the only noticable random factor in Guns gaming are the spreads of the stormie rifle, repeater and flechette.

 

On a final note, all the comments myself and Spider_AL have made are based on opinion, or logical derivation from known facts. Yet MrCrusher's post whilst having many inaccuracies is put across as fact, in fact it seems his entire purpose of posting was to try and prove Opusvi wrong. It reminds me of a little thought I came up with a couple of months ago, I didn't think i'd have a real opportunity to use it so soon.

 

"The world is just a forum of people waiting for the opportunity to prove each other wrong"

[MrCrusher]

DeTRiTiC-iQ,

Did I say, think or imply the word "fact" somewhere. My previous post was 100% unadulterated opinion. There is no right or wrong in opinion... just plain ol opinion. Maybe my opinion sounded a bit to forceful, but I type what I type without malice, with an occasional harmless fireball thrown in. Sorry to have hit or... torched a nerve.

 

There is no fact, or right and wrong in a forum - only opinion.

 

My apologies if I upset you.

 

 

P.S.

believe it or not some people's lives don't revolve around plugging Promod at every possible moment.

Actually, I was thinking of challenging Artifex to a duel.... Once I've cut off his head I shall become supreme Ruler of ProMod.

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by MrCrusher

 

P.S.

 

Actually, I was thinking of challenging Artifex to a duel.... Once I've cut off his head I shall become supreme Ruler of ProMod.

 

That would be true if ArtifeX hadent lost his edge from programing too much

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

You also seemed to have missed my point. You seem to equate "expansion" with "mod", now OBVIOUSLY if an expansion were released which was just a mod and had new features such as animations which can't be duplicated it might be a problem.

 

But expansions very rarely work this way, they are either standalone games or they build on the existing features of the original game.

 

So what if they add new animations? BIG DEAL. If you are really that bothered about animations decompile the model viewer and work out the algorithm which allows it to display the animations. Then work backwards and make your own rudimentary animation tool, JK1 had one after-all.

 

The problem with this community is that we keep expecting Raven or LEC to do everything for us, this community has a severe lack of ingenuity. Where are all the user-made tools to assist on mod-making?

 

What gives you this strange idea that Raven are so STUPID that they would even CONSIDER messing with the saber after the uproar after two patches. The most likely shape an expansion would take is as follows:

 

Singleplayer: New Missions/Storyline, possibly new features, force powers etc.

 

Multiplayer: New Maps, possibly a new game-type, NO GAMEPLAY CHANGES.

 

Don't you see? Just about everyone is against gameplay changes to multiplayer, that's the modders job. An expansion pack is supposed to EXPAND on what already exists without changing the basic shape of the game.

 

Believe it or not, I totally agree with the last part of this post. If the expand on the game, as you say, rather than changing it and making it inaccessible to modders, then that would be great for everybody IMO. We'll have to wait and see what happens--if anything.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by zerowingzero

 

That would be true if ArtifeX hadent lost his edge from programing too much

 

 

LOL. How true. Lazarous and I have some good saber battles that are give and take for the most part, but Laz always seems to end up with the higher score.

 

It's pretty ironic that I started coding to make the game more fun for me to play, but the end result is that I'm playing less now that I ever did. I will say that when I do play, it's much more enjoyable.

 

Let me clarify something to everyone:

 

I made ProMod to increase the depth and accuracy of the game. This makes outcomes much more predictable, no matter what your skill level is. I did not intend to make it less accessible to new players. All facets of the game which are more complex than normal have very clear visible feedback that lets you know what's going on. The CSC, the Bonus Meters, and now the Weapon Proficiency Alerts and the Jetpack Fuel Gauge. You'll always know why something happened, bad or good.

 

If there is anyone out there who feels that ProMod is too inaccessible to new players, then email me an explanation as to why, and I'll try to deal with the oversight.

 

One final thing: you do not have to be highly skilled to do well in ProMod. You only have to be more skilled than the person that you're fighting against. No, you should not expect to jump into a ProMod server and start wiping the floor with people your first time out. There's a learning curve with any new situation, game, whatever. I've done my best to make that learning curve as quick and gentle as possible, and to deviate as little as possible from the skillset of the official version. Again, if you think I've somehow missed something, email me and let me know.

[opusvi]

originally posted by MrCrusher

Online gamers and games are currently setting most industry trends. Most major releases are internet dependent. To presume otherwise is nonsense.

 

You're making an elitist argument as well by supporting that a minority of online players should dictate how everyone else should play. Most major game releases are not in fact, internet dependent and to assume that they are is incorrect. Last time I checked, only online MMORPG's games like Evercrack, and SW:Galaxies are "internet dependent". Most people without an internet connection could still install, play, and thoroughly enjoy eight out of every ten games. As an example let's look at the ten most popular games from GameSpy's PriceGrabber:

 

1) Warcraft III: Blizzard has long history with good MP gameplay. MP lacks ability to match players with similar skill levels. MP optional though it probably ships more boxes.

 

2)Battlefield 1942:Intensively done and authentic MP design based on interesting historical scenarios with objective based matches possible. MP optional and probably ships more boxes.

 

3)Unreal Tournament 2K3: Designed almost exclusively for MP gameplay.

 

4)Metal of Honor: Allied Assault:See #2 above.

 

5)Grand Theft Auto III: No MP gameplay. Ships prodigious amounts of product anyways.

 

6)No One Lives Forever 2: Co-op MP available only. Sells well regardless.

 

7)MOH:AA Spearhead: Same as #2, 4

 

8)Hitman 2:No MP gameplay. Still one of the most eagerly awaited sequels ever. Sells well regardless.

 

9)Age of Mythology:Focus on SP gameplay. MP gameplay that has a superior skill rating system. MP will sell a great deal of boxes.

 

10) Neverwinter Nights: Almost exclusively meant to be played online.

 

So MP gameplay is by no means essential or dependent to the majority of games. It is at best an added bonus for those gamebuyers who are able to and want to play MP online. Games for the most part, are not being designed with MP gameplay as the sole focus of development. Companies which package some form of MP gameplay do so for financial profit and not because they want to make a better gameplay experience for a small core of die-hard players.

 

(http://www.gamegate.com/news2.jsp)

 

Companies who keep a community alive by pandering to their MP gameplay requests do so because:

 

"Sites Can Derive Auxiliary Value from Offering Online Games

Large general-interest portals have demonstrated that games programming is effective in attracting and retaining the general-interest population. Game channels are among the most popular channels on major portals. Offering games on genre and affinity sites will broaden the base of online game players and offers sites a method of collecting data, retaining audience, and tapping into viral marketing potential.

 

Sites should therefore devote greater resources to developing their casual games in order to differentiate them from other sites' games programming. This type of improved narrowband game play can also act as a teaser to retain consumers for eventual broadband play. Online games based on TV game shows (e.g., Wheel of Fortune) or other licensed entertainment (e.g., Star Wars or Dawson's Creek) can also widen the appeal of playing online games via narrowband. Traditional media properties offer cross-media programming opportunities for online games as well as a potential retention incentive for online consumers who are also fans of the off-line entertainment entities."

 

Meaning in short, what I had already stated. LEA makes no money from JK2 MP aside from a modest increase in sales. The real income comes from demographic gathering, targeted advertising, and possibly subscriptions to services like GameSpy's or other gaming portals. It is those parties who truly benefit from MP gameplay and not LEA. You could argue that it's a vicious cycle because JK2 with it's lackluster MP gameplay and relatively small number of online players receives a significantly lower review on Gamespy than CS with its several thousands of players. It's not good business to steer MP players towards a game with subpar

gameplay.

 

 

JK2 was released with an emphasis on SP development and gameplay. MP was added later as an afterthought and imho is a dissapointment. With all of the exciting possibilities available in the rich and engrossing SW universe, we got Quake with force powers. There is no draw to exploring new areas, no cooperative gameplay, no objective-based scenarios. MP gameplay is poor because only people who are interested in their skills and ability to have quick reflexes and can master the right sequence to perform a mid-air, roundhouse decapitation really benefit from it.

 

 

originally posted by MrCrusher

To play ProMod you do not need fast reflexes so much as intelligent strategy. Reflexes come second to strategy. You assume to much.

 

 

Artifex's mod description (which again is a MP mod and does nothing to enhance SP gameplay) specifically states on his website: "The end result is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities." I'm not pretending to know something about the Promod gameplay (which I admittedly haven't tried) because I don't have to assume anything. He states his intentions in a clear and unequivocal fashion by openly proclaiming his mod to be geared towards players with "great ...skill". These are veteran players who already posses superior skills in comparison to the average JK2 MP gamer. Promod gives already experienced JK2 players yet another edge in competitive gameplay. N00bs who don't even know what a blue lunge or how to perform a backstab will find that competition in Promod against established Jedi Masters even more discouraging than the already poor vanilla MP gameplay.

 

If Promod was marketed differently so that it said that it indeed "nothing more than efficiency and an easier time playing, thus more fun." then you could fault me for assuming too much. As it stands now, if the mod description was changed to say that, it would be misleading copy since this is a mod intended to benefit experienced players more by Artifex's own admission.

 

originally posted by ArtifeX

This makes outcomes much more predictable, no matter what your skill level is.

 

Yes it certainly does. Good players will indeed predictably beat poor players. By eliminating "randomness and luck" Promod ensures that a player who is more skilled in vanilla JK2 MP gameplay will never again have to worry about his superior abilities somehow being impinged by a rookie's fortunate and improbable saber swipe. In vanilla JK2 MP a newcomer may have had at least the dim possibility of occasionally besting a Jedi Master through sheer luck and pluck. Under Promod playing, a veteran player is now ensured of regular and consistent victories over lesser oponents.

 

The only gameplay that will not become overly lopsided is in tournaments between expert players. They doubtlessly will be in a far better position than I to appreciate the additional finesse, speed, and power which I'm assuming Artifex coded into Promod. (See, I can make an assumptions that something being good.)

 

This is good news only for online gamers who are adept at JK2 MP combat. Which is great for them and I wish them lots of luck. Maybe some average players will find that with Promod, they become above average players. That would certainly be a measure of success for Artifex. Heck, if I were a great player I'd probably love the this mod as much as you do. But since it's only a MP mod and I'm a average player this is not something I'm interested in. Artifex has probably put in countless hours of his voluntary hard work and effort into this project. I'd be remiss if I didn't have a great deal of respect for him in that regard. But I can still admire his commitment and dedication to his original intent even if I respectfully disagree with him in that I think the probable effects of his mod will not be overwhelmingly positive for JK2 MP and will not affect SP gameplay.

 

If his ideas of more complex swordfighting routines become more popular, I would hope that in JK3 or an expansion pack these become optional and not hardcoded into the games since it would discourage sales. Average players when confronted with a much more difficult saber learning curve might simply opt out of buying it.

 

 

I really believe that more JK2 owners would consider even the poor existing, non-objective, based MP (either vanilla or Promoed) however, if there was a way of somehow linking combatants up with players of similar skills so that no one person in a server could dominate all the other ones. I really think that might help to draw more average players into MP gameplay. Since I'm not familiar with the process, I don't even know if there a any way to establish one server for n00bs and another one for l33ts so if I'm missing out on something which already exists let me know.

 

[zerowingzero]

I'm not understanding the basis of your argument, players of a lower skill should have a good chance to beat one of higher skill? I don't see why this would encourage playing a game knowing that anyone joining a server could be just as good as you even if you have more experence.

As far as i'm concerned, there isnt ANY online game that rewards luck over skill, i don't really see why it should, just because one weighlifter can't lift as much as another, does that entitle him to lift less weight in a compitition?

Any game that doesnt reward skill with a higher ratio of scoring/ wining would be really fustrating to play.

 

And also, your argument that mp is an optional conponent in games, is pretty much wrong. Most of the games that you listed that had sp only would not work feasably with mp. Think of maxpayne, all battles would last as long as one bullet time press, or WC3, The AI could be ok for awhile but MP is where the game really shines.

 

And i do suggest playing the mod and not relying on the descripion to judge the mod, it doesnt really do it justice.

[ArtifeX]

opus:

 

wait for version 3.0 to come out, and give Promod a shot. I think you'll find that your misgivings about it being an elitist-only mod will be put to rest.

 

Promod is easy to play, but hard to play well. Just as any good game should be.

[Nill the Mean]

Wow, it has been ages since I came here...

This game is dead as disco.