TheWhiteRaider Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Ok I lied about last post. I just came back from Self-defence class. My teacher showed me some of Lee's styles. He showed me a block attack. Where you would block and attack at the same time. The block was not one to stop the punch it was one to knock it from the side with a good amont of force(This would throw the other person person off balance) and also you would be punching at the same time. Lee's style was one which teaches you how to take on a bigger attacker even if you are not strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 To Fife: Every kick, swing of the fist, dodge, etc. Lee was responsible for this orchestration and refused to "Settle" for anything less than perfection and would film the fight sequences dozens of times to achieve that level of perfection. I realize that in a "real fight" choreography takes a back seat to instinct and reaction, but, for the most part, Lee wanted his fight scenes to appear explosive and energetic so as not to appear as a "dance" as is so common in other martial artist's movies. I can not agree more with you, but please notice that you say that he would not settle for anything but perfection. But: his film fights were really no different than how he would've flattened opponents out on the street. As soon (or next day ) as I had read your post i went to the library to find some books (which I had read before). Now I quote(I translate from Danish to English, everything in italics is emphasized by me): "When you begin to use kicks in gung fu it is impertant that you keep the kicks low. When you are practising it is O.K. to kick as high as you can, but in a real fight it is more important to kick as fast as you can, and never let your leg reach higher than your waist. It is way to easy to get knockef off balance by such gradient of toso and legs. And also, your kicks has to correspond with your hand techniques (that means simple, dirrect and effective without any ornamentation nor any attempts to do sophisticated moves). It is also important that your kicking foot snaps right back after landing the kick, and do not try to use high nor flying kicks in a real fight ." This was from the introduction to the chapter "Gung fu kicking techniques" from the book "Tao of gung fu", author: Bruce Lee Just to have his movie-fighting-style fresh in mind i saw "Way of the Dragon" just now. Lee used many high kicks in this movie. Remember, what you said was that Lee would use the same moves on the street and in his movies. I belive my last qoute speaks for itself. Thus ends our conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 What Rad said is true - I just watched Way of the Dragon with him, and Bruce is kicking people's heads like there's no tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Rad I belive my last qoute speaks for itself. Thus ends our conversation. The "conversation" started when Cjais stated that you had voiced your opinion on how Lee's fighting in his movies Well, I can certainly admit when I'm wrong as I am apparently in this case. I have not read his book as you've obviously taken the time to at least perouse it for this piece of information. Nothin' like careful research to illustrate your point? However, I prefer when someone presents pertinent and useful information in a way that enlightens me as you started out. Here's where you lose my respect and make me say, "Was that really necessary?" "Na na na! Got you!" We're not kids in a playground. There's no need to be snide or sarcastic, big guy. I mean, after all, are you trying to enforce your arguement simply by "rubbing someone's face in it", so to speak? Think about that for a few. On a different note, good job on finding the info. It would've been useful to the entire conversation if we had this nugget of knowledge on the outset! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Oh, thanks for replying Fife - Rad intended to adress your sig-line (why it's wrong) and also didn't have enough time to "prove" that grapplers aren't going to win versus a kicker. The discussion on whether Lee would use the same technique he used in his movie when it was for real was closer to his heart I believe - He did know he was right all along, he just didn't have the books rented at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Actually, Cjais, given Rad's findings, my sig line is dead on the money: "that means simple, dirrect and effective without any ornamentation nor any attempts to do sophisticated moves." Couldn't this easily be translated as "fight pretty and you will leave ugly"? Or, in more basic terms; keep it simple without all the flash and fancy stuff. I'm only stating my opinion's as everyone else has. If I've said anything to insult anyone, then I apologize, but can we dispense with the "tag team" now? I've already fallen victim to 2 on 1 and 3 on 1 fights in my life. They're no fun. As far as proving that grapplers won't win against kickers, let's just watch the next UFC. MY objective isn't to prove you, or anyone else for that matter, wrong. I feel that your intention, however is to do just that rather than to just plain see for yourself. Can we stop now before this trainwreck turns into a flame? No need for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Boba Fife can we dispense with the "tag team" now? Nah! Well, I think me and Rad reached the following conclusion: Bruce certainly didn't intend for his fightingstyle to be "pretty" or like a beautiful ballet - the fact the he can strike so fast and rapidly, and that he has an ungodly flexibility simply makes him look pretty doing his fights. Of course, Tyson with his "Rhino tactics" can't do the same thing, and as such will have to settle for an equally effective fighting style - but also an ultimately ugly one, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Cjais Tyson with his "Rhino tactics" can't do the same thing, and as such will have to settle for an equally effective fighting style - but also an ultimately ugly one, IMHO. Well, that's another conversation unto itself: whether or not heavyweight boxing is an "ugly" style. This is purely opinion just as much as someone who would say that martial arts styles, such as Kung Fu, are a "pretty ballet". I don't feel as if either statement is true. I only wished that you felt the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Boba Fife Well, that's another conversation unto itself: whether or not heavyweight boxing is an "ugly" style. This is purely opinion just as much as someone who would say that martial arts styles, such as Kung Fu, are a "pretty ballet". I don't feel as if either statement is true. I only wished that you felt the same. Boxing is about who can slug it for the longest time while wearing protective rubber gloves. Other martial arts, such as gung fu, are way more graceful and still remain effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Cjais Boxing is about who can slug it for the longest time while wearing protective rubber gloves. Unfortunately, Cjais, your understanding of "the sweet science" is almost nil. There is so much more to boxing than two individuals punching wildly until one either tires or until the other hits the mat. That's like saying that Formula 1 racing is no more than small European men getting into cramped over-powered four-wheeled jet fighters trying to get to the finish line without running out of gas. There is just as much strategy and attention to action and reaction in boxing as there is in martial arts. Without it? You could be killed. Do you think boxers spend 1000's of hours in gyms merely to see how many punches they can throw before being knocked out? You obviously haven't really taken the time to research boxing as Rad has taken to study Bruce Lee's techniques. One could say, "Yeah? Well karate is all about tryin' to kick or punch the other guy and knock him out! And Jiu Jitsu is all about gettin' people in chokeholds and that's it!!" And you would groan in disbelief. Same thing, man! It's clear you don't like boxing. That's fine. It doesn't appeal to everyone. But, I can have esteem and respect for things I don't necessarily agree with or like. Capice'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllKyNeSlll Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 boxing has a lot of reflex involved to it. avoiding punches and being quick while not being tired is it. however, boxers usually don't deal with anything below the thighs which make that a disadvantage. but lee v tyson isn't really that impressive. since tyson isn't the best boxer and lee is far from being the best martial artist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Fife, now you're getting nasty and have ceased to understand me. Of course, what I said about boxing was an exageration - what I find silly in boxing is that they train hard to fight in a simulated environment with built-in rules: What if I suddenly try to hit you below the waist, take off my rubber gloves or use kicks? Yes, you can say that karate or jiu jitsu is about dealing kicks and punches, and getting hold of your opponent in a headlock, but boxing really *is* about slugging it for the longest time since you're not fighting for your life (again, generalizing, but since it's a sport, not self defence, it will always be about abiding the rules even though tactics still play a large role). Whether boxing is graceful is a personal question, as I expected you to understand - but I can provide arguments if you feel like it: Boxing is dull compared to self defence since you're not utilizing your whole body, you merely walk around in a ring and fight by using rubber gloves to bash your opponent with, sometimes resorting to sweaty hugs. I simply find self defence martial arts more good looking and stylish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Cjais Fife, now you're getting nasty and have ceased to understand me. Not true. I'm not getting nasty. If anything, I feel as if my points about boxing as being as strategic as martial arts are being totally ignored. How is that being nasty?? I could say "you haven't ceased to understand me because you never started!". Now that would be nasty. Your last sentence is the crux of your arguement: "I simply find self defence martial arts more good looking and stylish." Again, a matter of opinion. You look at a Picasso and see one thing whereas I may see it a completely different way. Am I being nasty again? Do you know who Roy Jones Jr. is? You wanna talk about stylish? He is so fast with his jabs and so quick to block or dodge a punch that it's indescribable. What about Fernando Vargas? A lightweight champion. Lightweights win more by decision or TKO than by KO because their strategy is about speed and perserverence coupled with movement and precision rather than relying on sheer punching power. True, boxers don't use their legs to kick or block, but what has that got to do with it? You're getting stuck in the "the guy who kicks is the guy who wins" thing again. I think you're ignoring everything that anyone else, including myself, is saying and simply believe what you want to believe. That's fine. I can't try to sway you away from your beliefs. All I can do is present evidence or examples to help you see it another way. If you choose to throw my thoughts into the trash and simply see it the way you want, then the point is moot. As I said before, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Trust me, Cjais, if I were being nasty, you'd surely know it, but what good would that do? I'm too warm n' fuzzy to be nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Boba Fife Your last sentence is the crux of your arguement: "I simply find self defence martial arts more good looking and stylish." Again, a matter of opinion. You look at a Picasso and see one thing whereas I may see it a completely different way. Am I being nasty again? True, boxers don't use their legs to kick or block, but what has that got to do with it? You're getting stuck in the "the guy who kicks is the guy who wins" thing again. I think you're ignoring everything that anyone else, including myself, is saying and simply believe what you want to believe. That's fine. Trust me, Cjais, if I were being nasty, you'd surely know it, but what good would that do? I'm too warm n' fuzzy to be nasty. If you were really warm and fuzzy, you wouldn't keep coming with snide remarks. As I stated before, I already said that how we perceive grace and "style" is entirely subjective. Look through my previous post and you will see. I will ignore the flaming for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fife Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Cjais, we're getting off on the wrong foot here. Unfortunate. My comments are no more snide than yours or Rad's. Interpretation and context are the keys here. I'm not flaming and wish to avoid that completely. Nothing is gained in flaming. I think we should let this die as clearly we're the only ones left and this has taken a somewhat negative turn. Obviously, this subject is something that hits a bit close to home for both of us, however I feel as if my rhetort is coming across as an attack on you. Again, unfortunate and unintentional. There's really no need to threaten me with "I will ignore the flaming for now." Totally unnecessary. I'm not one to back down from a fight when I feel conflict exists, however we both suffer from the same affliction: thin skin. And, in this case, there is no need to fight. None whatsoever. Listen, it's late, I have to cruise and the weekend awaits. Enjoy yours and we'll both come back refreshed and ready for some more "light-hearted" conversation, k? K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Wise words - let's let this drop. I do think Rad intends to say a few more words about this, but I won't, unless it's absolutely necessary - and right now I'm beginning to interpretate a lot of things unnecessarily negatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Fife, I did not intend to bug yu nor irritate you. Sorry for that Thanks for the compliment about finding info. I can see that I have to specify what Cjais said about you sig: I can see your poin in why you think that it is true, but I would not see it as the ultimate truth. I would more say like: train hard: fight easily. Train easily: fight hard (troubled) - and die And just a short reply to the grabler - kicker / puncher discussion. I have a very fine friend who is doing judo (me doing karate). We have excactly the same discussion:) , and to sum up: we think that it depends on the situation: if we stand right next to each other I do not stand a chance. But if I have some space, then he will not get near me. In that way I could keep him away and kick / punch him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Rad, wtf are you doing up right now? Where are you? What are you wearing right now? j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre the Frog Posted November 16, 2002 Share Posted November 16, 2002 Hi! I'm the FINE buddy!!!! Anyways, my experience tells me that Judo only works in regulated fights, as soon as you grapple someone, there going to have the opportunity to do something very unpleasant to you (grapping your balls being the worst). I don't know what the UFC are, but if its anything like Judo, you wont be able grapple for long! (I'm not saying judos bad here, it is one of the most effective techniques I know for immobilizing your opponent, but in a street fight you're simply too exposed when you grapple someone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodrodius Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 Sorry I haven't posted in a while. Bruce Lee's ghost decided to strike back since I've been talking **** and decided to blow up my power supply on my comp. No joke, the capaciters on it blew up and were leaking this goo inside, it was crazy. So, thats where I've been, and it's an excuse to bump my thread to get more people to post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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