Snipers

[Admiral Vostok]

While I somewhat agree with your points, Corran, It seems wrong that it is easier to get a Master (just build him) than it is to get a Knight. Here's the way I see it:

 

** "Knights are designed for combat, and are basically good fighting units. Masters are more unique, tailor-made for certain duties." However, Masters were once Knights too. They had to endure the hardships of being a Jedi Knight before they became a Jedi Master. While it's true that there are those Jedi who are more suited to negotiation and diplomacy than combat, it is unlikely that Masters of this sort would take to the battlefield anyway. Masters that go to war were once Knights that went to war.

** "Masters are also simply better at most things than Knights, and thus it would be unbalanced if the only thing required for their creation was the death of some enemy units at the hands of a Knight." But having things your way makes it even easier to get masters. You only have to pay for them. Perhaps unlike Padawan -> Knight upgrading, you need to also pay for the Knight -> Master upgrade.

** "My plan was that, seeing as Masters are so good, you can only have 12 at a time, the same number as the Jedi council (hat tip to Vostok). This simply doesn't work with the XP system." It does if you limit the amount you can upgrade. Even if a Knight has enough XP to be a Master, he cannot be upgraded if there are already 12 Masters. It's quite simple really.

** "You would want to have both at the same time- a normal-sized force of Knights as nice battle units, and an elite group of Masters to undertake specific duties (eg the conversion or ambush of a convoy)." This is true, and as upgrading requires sufficient XP, a resource cost and a free spot on the council you will have both. Not every Knight can become a Master, and you may not even want those that can be upgraded to do so.

** "Padawans>Knights make sense, as they are both normal battle units (although tricky and cool ones). Masters are quite simply something entirely different and unique, and just don't fit in with the XP system." I think it does, and if XP wasn't required for Master upgrading, it seems wasted just using it for Padawan -> Knight upgrading. Either have XP for all Jedi, or have it for none. Needing XP only for Padawans seems a waste of a XP system.

[CorranSec]

** Your first argument is totally realism-based, whereas mine pointed out the great differences between the two in-game units. Now I know that in realism terms, Knights become Masters, but in gameplay terms, should a Strike Mech upgrade to become a Mech Destroyer? Should it go Trooper>Trooper level 2>Mounted Trooper? Definitely not.

** Paying for something like a meditative upgrade seems halfhearted. If you want to pay for a unit, just build it! My Masters will cost quite a lot, require research before they're available, and take a reasonably long time to build. Is an Assault Mech or Fortress 'too easy' to build? Definitely not.

** Only allowing 12 upgrades is nonsensical. What happens to the XP system? Does it just disappear after that? What happens to the other Knights who have 999/1000 XP when the entire thing just gets axed after you have 12 JMs?

It's clear that we can't ditch the 12-Master thing, and this simply doesn't work with an upgrading system. However, it works quite fine when you just build 12 JMs.

** You know what I meant when I said 'both at the same time.' I don't want to pay for a dozen Knights, use them in a bunch of battles, and then lose them to get some Masters. It's different with Padawans, because Knights are simply an upgraded version of them (like Trooper Recruit>Trooper). But Masters are a different unit, and have a different use. Going Knights>Masters is like Windu's idea about upgrading aircraft into different kinds of aircraft (X-Wing>A-Wing), and we all agree about that idea.

** Masters are something completely different, like I've said many times. You think the current XP system is a waste? Then use it on Force powers, like I've suggested! Your argument against that is that we don't want too much XP, and that it would over-emphasize Jedi. And now you want more XP. Well while you're at it, why not use XP to turn troopers into mounties? It's basically the same effect.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, here's the benefits of my way:

 

1. While we could use XP for Padawan->Knight and then for buying Powers, it would appear to similar to WarCraft 3 for most peoples' liking (not too much XP as you claim I said). Getting rid of the buying Powers idea makes it seem like a waste of an XP system for only one thing. So using it for Padawan->Knight and Knight->Master makes sense.

 

2. Your way, to build a Knight (which you'll no doubt agree is far more common than a Master) you must build a Padawan, earn XP and then upgrade to Knight. To build a much rarer Master, you have to do far less since you can just build them straight away. This makes no sense.

 

3. Enforcing a 12 Master limit is a good idea, but very artificial feeling. A better way to hide the artificiallity of it is to require XP to get Masters, but still have a twelve master limit. This way it would be rare that a person gets enough XP to ever get more than 12 Masters. Your way they can just build as many as they want until the limit stops them. My way they have to really work to get twelve, which feels more realistic.

 

4. While you seem to hate realism for some reason, most people quite like it if it doesn't make for gameplay bad. My way is more realistic, and even improves gameplay.

 

5. Remember, you don't have to upgrade your Knights to Masters. It is not automatic. If you want Knights in your force, then don't upgrade them to Masters. I thought that was obvious, but you seem to have missed it.

[CorranSec]

1. Some people's liking? WarCraft 3 was an incredibly popular game, and including a few elements like this will make it appeal to some Blizzard gamers where they would normally disregard it as being too Ensemble/LucasArts-ish. But even though that is a really good argument, it's not the main point here.

Sure, I don't want WarCraft 3. The majority of GB2 is like the Age series, although quite better in many ways (with the unique civs etc). However, we've incorporated this element of RPG-ish-ness (that is, the XP system) only for Jedi, to make them more fun and emphasize their role more.

The Padawan>Knight progression is a good use for this system, for the reasons we've brought up before. Gaining powers is also a good use for this system, as it emphasises their importance and makes you work to get them.

2. To have a Knight, you must create a padawan, earn XP, research some later-than-Pads-tech-level upgrade about Knights (so that you don't immediately build a Pad and get a Knight) and click a 'level up' button or some such. This does require some effort, but in the early game it's only fair, and in the late game it's easy to get XP, with upgrades etc.

To have a Master, which doesn't fit into the Pad>Knight series (as shown above), you must research something about Masters, pay an appropriate amount of money, and wait an appropriate amount of time.

3. Artificial feeling? I think not. This is a game, after all. Is it artificial feeling that workers can only carry 10 food? No, because that's good for gameplay. I think it will be even more artificial if, for some unknown reason, only 12 Knights can upgrade to Masters, rather than only 12 Masters being created at the Temple.

4. I like realism (not more than gameplay. however). Your way gets in the way of gameplay. It may be realistic that you can modify the legs and cockpit and cannons of an AT-PT to get an AT-ST, but should you upgrade a PT to an ST in the game? No, and this is exactly the same as the Knight>Master case.

5. I want Knights and Masters in my force. However, seeing as they are so different, I don't want to trade one for the other. I want Strike Mechs and Mech Destroyers, but do I want to morph all my existing Strikes into Destroyers? No, I want both, because they're different and shouldn't be linked in the upgrade process.

 

It is clear that Masters are sufficiently different to Knights that it would make no sense and would mess around with balance+gameplay if Knights could morph into Masters. That is the simple fact, and simple main reason that it shouldn't go Knight>Master. Can you dispute this, when you look at all the stuff we've nutted out about Knights and Masters? No.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Damn......

Not another Corran vs Vostok debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

 

This is becoming insane.

Come on.

Isn't there anything you guys agree on?

[CorranSec]

Contrary to popular belief, there have been quite a few things Vostok and I have agreed on. The problem is that as soon as we start to agree, we get bored, so we quickly find something else to argue about.

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran, I don't see what your objection is if you DON'T HAVE TO UPGRADE THEM IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

 

Which way sounds less artificial:

 

No, we can't train another Jedi Master because there are already twelve.

 

No, you cannot be promoted to a Jedi Master because there is not enough room on the Jedi Council for more than twelve.

 

 

I've decided to go with your "XP for powers" idea, so here's my revised idea:

 

You build a Padawan. Padawans gain XP for each enemy they kill. They gain XP at a faster rate while in the presence of a Jedi Knight, and even faster in the presence of a Jedi Master. Once they have reached a certain amount of XP, they can be promoted to Jedi Knight. This promotion is not automatic and does not need to be done if you don't want to. The promotion from Padawan to Knight costs no resources. The Jedi Knight continues to earn XP, again at a higher rate if in the presence of a Master. After a certain amount of XP, Jedi Knights are automatically given a Force power. Then when they have earnt enough XP, the option to be promoted to a Jedi Master becomes available. Again this is not completely necessary. This time, however, the promotion has a resource cost attached. You can only have twelve Jedi Masters at any one time - any more Jedi Knights who gain enough XP to become Masters when you already have twelve Masters needs to wait for a Council seat to become vacant - ie they need to wait for an existing Jedi Master to die before they can take their place and become a Jedi Master themselves. Jedi Masters earn XP to gain two Force powers. Once a Jedi Master has been fully upgraded with all their Force powers, they continue to earn XP. However, this additional XP can be "gifted" to a Padawan, giving them half the original XP the Master had. So if a Master gifts 20 XP to a Padawan, the Padawan gains 10XP. This represents the fact that Jedi do not need to learn from battle, but can be taught by wise veterans.

 

Jedi Characters (Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Yoda, etc...) have no XP and cannot gift XP to Padawans. They do however enable nearby Padawans and in some cases Knights earn XP at a boosted rate like normal Knights and Masters do.

[CorranSec]

But the point is that I want Masters, and I have to lose Knights to get them. Should I have to lose Strike Mechs to get Mech Destroyers? No!

 

Which way sounds less artificial:

 

No, we can't train another Jedi Master because there are already twelve.

 

No, you cannot be promoted to a Jedi Master because there is not enough room on the Jedi Council for more than twelve.

 

The answer is quite simple: Nobody cares. I'm sorry, but this is a game, and players are quite willing to accept that limits are created. It's just the same as hitting a pop cap. Is there a reason that you simply cannot build another trooper? Well, I can think of a dozen in my head, but does the game need to provide them for me in order to create a fun and exciting gaming experience? I don't think so.

 

You build a Padawan. Padawans gain XP etc, this stuff is all basic and non-disputable. The promotion from Padawan to Knight is automatic, because this is an entirely natural evolution (one supercedes the other), and there is no way that a Padawan is superior to a Knight, and thus no way you wouldn't want a Knight. A Knight continues to earn XP etc. After a certain amount of XP, Knights get their specific Force Power (Push/Grip).

Masters are a different case. They do not evolve from Knights, but are built individually from the Temple (or whatever the place may be). They begin with one power (Conversion for DJMs, Heal for JMs) and need XP to 'purchase' their next power (because you might want Conceal before Confuse, etc). It is important to note that Masters gain XP from their power usage- eg a successful Conversion gains the same amount of XP as the killing of that specific unit would, sabotage gains you a certain amount of XP for different buildings, etc. This is because Masters don't go charging into battle that much, because their powers are often quite preferable, but I still want them to be earning XP as they do their job, just like Knights.

I like the Gift idea. However, it applies to Knights also, seeing as they don't upgrade to Masters.

 

By the way... do we want another DJM power? I think it might spruce things up a bit. And if we do, do you want another Knight power too (so that they don't have one compared to the Masters' three)?

[Admiral Vostok]

Well as good as all that sounds, I still hate that is technically easier to get a Jedi Master than a Jedi Knight.

 

Perhaps you can only build a Jedi Master if you already have a certain number of Jedi? The problem is that although ideally players will get a large number of Knights and a small number of Masters, this may not necessarily happen. People might get no Padawans or Knights but fill up all twelve Master spots. This is completely unrealistic but allowable by you methods. This is the only reason I want Knight -> Master upgrading, so we don't have heaps of Masters and no Knights. So basically I'm willing to go with your idea if you can come up with a good way of making Jedi Masters harder to acquire.

 

What would these extra powers be? I'm hesitant to make up anything we haven't seen in the movies. I think the powers we've got at the moment are pretty good.

[CorranSec]

Once you're at the stage of the game when Masters can be built, Pad>Knight progression is quite easy. Research will make the Pads gain experience a lot quicker than they originally did, and once you add the higher-Jedi-presence bonuses and the 'gifts,' you'll have Pads going to Knights in no time. Which is the whole point- once you can get Masters, getting Knights will be far easier that it was originally. That way it all balances out.

 

And it's entirely fine for people not to have Pads/Knights but to have Masters. I'm allowed to have Assault Mechs but no Strikes/Destroyers, aren't I? Couple this with the facts that:

*Pads and Knights would have been almost certainly used when Masters weren't available (I used Strikes earlier),

* Masters have a quite different purpose (Strikes have a different purpose to Assaults),

* You won't have a mass of Masters, only 12, and it's reasonable to have 12 Assault Mechs and no Strikes. You may say that nobody would have the financial resources to get 12 Assaults, but Masters cost relatively the same amount.

 

Extra powers: Now this stuff is fun.

Jedi Knight: Force Pull. Targeted at an area (small circle), units from small to medium size in the circle are swiftly drawn to directly in front of the Knight and are stunned for a period. (10 seconds?)

Dark Jedi Knight: Thrall. Small to medium units in a small circle cease attacking your side and attack enemies. Not actually controlled by you though (AI ally).

Note that these powers are designed to be rather similar.

Alternatively for DJK: Dark Blessing. DJK gains extra speed and deals more damage for a time period (not sure about this one) but when Blessing ends, takes 1/3 damage. (1/3 of max health, ie if the DJK is at a total 300 health he'll end up on 200, but if he was damaged to 99 he'll die.)

Dark Jedi Master: Not sure for now, but I'll think of something soon.

[JediMasterEd]

Experiance to upgrade the Jedi's/Sith's is a great idea. Maybe the transition from Knight to Master should take tons of time and experience. Plus the Jedi should have force powers, like force lightning or something...or something on the lines that CorranSec said. Maybe they should also block laser blasts like...60% of the time and it goes up with the experience gained.

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran - It doesn't matter how easy it becomes to get Knights, using your way it will still be easier to get Masters. However, as I said above, I can see why you want them separately. So perhaps as a compromise, it just takes AGES (longer than any other thing) to build a Jedi Master? I think Masters should also have an XP system to get their Powers, just so we have some sort of continuity over all Jedi units.

 

Do Knights/Masters actually spend their XP to get powers? For example, Lightning might cost 100 XP, and if my Sith Master has 200 XP after getting Lightning he would then have 100 XP left? I think, although not terribly realistic, this is a good way to do things, so you can get a certain power before the other, and you'll have to save if one is more expensive?

[CorranSec]

It will not be easier to get Masters than Knights. Look at the facts:

a) Knights cost a rather small amount, because all you pay for is the Padawan. Masters cost a lot.

b) Knights take very little time to build, because all you have to wait for is the Padawan. Masters take a fairly long time- not quite AGES, but a reasonable amount.

c) Padawans can get XP very quickly. If you send a Pad out with a bunch of other units and they get into a fight with some enemies, the Pad will quite probably be able to become a Knight by the end of that fight. Also, by the time you get Masters you'll have Knights sitting around with plenty of useless (ie giftable) XP, so you can get Knights as soon as your Pad pops out of the Temple.

 

I always intended for Masters to use XP to get powers, so yes, they will. And yes, they will spend XP. Push might be 100 XP, Pull 125, or whatever, and the player chooses when to spend XP and what on.

 

So what do you think of the new powers?

[CorranSec]

Hmm? No replies? Could it be that Vostok has finally backed down and offered unconditional surrender?

 

Nonetheless, I want an opinion on these new powers...

[Admiral Vostok]

Well being too busy to go on the net for a four days hardly spells unconditional surrender in my books.

 

I somewhat agree with the Jedi Master situation. As long as they cost a lot, and they take a while to build, I suppose that's fine. I believe the most important thing is that they have some form of XP (as you agree) so that they relate in some way to the Padawans/Knights.

 

As for extra powers, I'm not sure. The Force Pull one is quite nice, but I'd prefer to see other powers based more on the movies than just making up powers for the sake of having more powers. Here's the powers we see in the movies but have not yet used (and may not depending on how well they translate to gameplay):

 

Force Jump: this could be implemented like the Annubites in AoM or perhaps more controllable, to jump over walls or jump towards a retreating enemy. For either Jedi or Sith Knights.

 

Force Speed (like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon escaping the Droidekas): this might be good for the Sith Knights, they move and attack faster for a period.

 

Force Reflect (What Yoda does with Dooku's lightning): Enemy attacks are reflected back at the attacker (perhaps with half the strength).

 

Having said that I'm fairly happy with the powers we've got at the moment, but maybe one more for each of the Knights would be nice (they only have Push (Jedi) and Grip (Sith) at the moment). I'd suggest Pull for Jedi and Speed for Sith as their effects are kind of similar (get to the enemy faster).

[CorranSec]

I'm making up powers for the sake of good gameplay and fun. Movie-influenced ones are nice, but you shouldn't restrict all power to only what we see in the movies. Gameplay>realism, though I hate to drag that old adage back again...

 

Pull: Glad you liked it.

 

Jump: Hmm. Too AoM-ish, not enough potention, and not very exciting. I'd ditch it.

 

Speed: As a power-up move, I prefer Dark Blessing.

 

Reflect: Not quite sure about this one. It doesn't seem as good as any of the other powers, and I'm not clear on what it does... does it reflect all attacks? What about splash attacks? Can it shield nearby units? It is a passive power, or a 'shield-style' power (you turn it on and it slowly drains mana), or what?

[Admiral Vostok]

I don't know. As I said I'm fine with the powers we already had, I don't think we need any more, especially if they're going to be totally made up ones with no grounding in either proper Star Wars or in EU.

 

Just getting back to the Jedi/Sith Master issue... would all civs be allowed masters, or would they be limited to Empire, Rebellion, Naboo and Republic as they are now? Also, are we talking about similar Jedi upgrades that would be generic for all civs like in GB1?

[lukeiamyourdad]

I'm getting sick of these pointless Corran vs Vostok debates....

 

 

Masters shouldn't be allowed for all civs but non-master civs will have stronger bounties...a lot stronger.

[Darth Windu]

Corran, Vostok - i disagree with both of you. Padawans should upgrade to Knights through XP, along with every other unit in the game (ie becoming a Veteran) like the system in 'Command & Conquer Red Alert 2'.

 

However there should be no special powers for jedi such as 'force speed' and 'force jump'. They work great in games when you are controlling only one Jedi, but for an RTS it makes these units far, far, far too micro-intensive. Instead Jedi should simply be made faster than other infantry units, rather than you having to click on a button to make them faster.

 

luke - i disagree with you as well. As you will have seen, in my idea for SWGB2 everyone gets Jedi or Sith, but only the Republic gets Jedi Master's (for obvious reasons). However Bounty Hunter's are also a unique unit, for the Hutt Cartel. This means that for anyone fighting the Republic, they will need to concentrate on anti-Master taactics (such as having lots of Knights), and would also make the Hutt Cartel a great counter-civ to the Republic.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu-I won't argue with you about that...it's been done a long time ago and I don't really want to restart that.

 

Instead last night I thought of a Master system that works well in terms of realism(i'll have to change some things for balance's sake)

 

Republic- The republic is allowed 12 jedi masters everyone of them being counsil members. They all have different stats.

The first one you will be allowed to build wil be the weakest up to the 12th master being the strongest(probably Yoda).

Republic Knights are a bit weaker though for balance and they aren't allowed more then a few bounties(I have to think about the number).

 

Empire- The Empire is allowed 1 master and his apprentice(Palpatine and Vader) plus Sith Kinghts.

Their Sith Master is a uber unit(similar to the pharaoh in AoM but stronger and has more abilities). It has the ability to give a short boost of power to surrounding units every once in a while. The apprentice gains from his master(if he's around him) boost of energy(attack, hp, counter-rate).

However Sith Knights are unaffected by those boosts.

 

Rebel Alliance- The Alliance is allowed 3 Masters(Old Obi-Wan, old Yoda and Luke when he's a Master ok it's gonna be in EU but they need a guy who can fight) and Jedi Knights. Obi-Wan and Yoda are bad fighters but can give short boosts of attack power to surrounding units every once in a while (Obi-Wan boosts Trooper while Yoda gives those boosts to Jedi Kinghts).

Luke does nothing special. He's just like a Regular Jedi Knight but he's stronger and has master force powers.

 

Royal Naboo- They have also and Apprentice/Master system(Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan) and Jedi Knights.

The Master and the Apprentice are always together(they can't be moved seperatly) and benifit from each others abilities(they can block laser beams directed on the other). They give troopers around them a speed boost.

 

Confederacy/Trade Federation- They both have the same system. A master and an apprentice. However they don't get Sith Knights but get really strong bounties. Since both those armies are mechanized, they can't get bonuses from the Sith. The Master and the apprentice however can bind minds(converting). They can convert other units(assuming other civs' Masters can't do that).

 

Hutt Cartel- No Jedi or Sith but instead they have hutts( only a few available) They are really bad fighters but give surrounding units short boosts of power. They have the Strongest bounties.

 

Wookiees/Gungans- They can't make any masters but have Kinghts. They have the second strongest bounties after the Hutt Cartel. Instead of masters they get Bosses. They give untis more accuracy, attack or defense.

 

Those boosts only affects organic units. Mechs, heavies, ships, and aircraft aren't affected by boosts.

[Admiral Vostok]

Hmm, interesting idea Luke. This would make the concept of Jedi more like Heroes in AoM.

 

I'm not sure about making each Master a character, though. If they died, would you get to rebuild them? Perhaps more of a generalised concept is in order, based on the system of Jedi they have rather than specific characters. Not sure exactly how this would be different to your system, but meditate on this I will.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I have never thought about that...

Hmmmm...

Maybe their souls goes to the Force and they can be brought back because the Force wants it...errr weird...

Hmmm...I'll also meditate on this.

[CorranSec]

Hmm... I'm not sure about your 'unique Jedi' system, luke. It may be nice for realism, but we've created all these things for gameplay, and I don't know how they fit into your idea.

Do you intend for the Masters to be resurrectable Characters/Heroes?

Have all of the powers and such that we came up with been summarily dismissed?

[lukeiamyourdad]

No of course not. They have not been dismissed. In my idea, they'll be able to do everything we have been discussing on this thread with the addition of what I said and the restrictions.

 

From my point of view, it's better to restrain the use of masters to avoid those large master armies like in GB1.

Maybe now with my idea, knights will be more used as the frontline soldier rather then masters in GB1. If you play a non-master civ in GB1, you won't use knights.

[Admiral Vostok]

I was thinking about Master limitations today, and while I believe the 12 Master limit is a good idea (like the Jedi Council) this analogy doesn't really suit the Sith. So then I thought "Well what should be the Sith's limit?"

 

Now realistically there would only ever be one Sith Master at a time. Multiple Sith Masters would fight each other for dominance, being the power hungry beings they are. But we can't just have one Sith Master, that would be crap.

 

So I came up with this idea: There is no limit to the number of Sith Masters you can build, HOWEVER with each additional Sith Master you build, your Masters become easier to kill. If you only have one Sith Master, he is better in combat than a Jedi Master. If you get a second Sith Master, both it's and your existing Sith Master's HP and attack are decreased slightly. This represents the fact that they are just as busy fighting each other as they are fighting the Jedi. So by the time you get twelve Sith Masters, it's almost not worth having them they are so crap. So a single Sith Master will defeat a single Jedi Master, but 12 Sith Masters will be easily beaten by 12 Jedi Masters. What do people think of this idea?