CorranSec Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Luke's dad, I don't think that would really do the job. To fix my problem, we either make the sniper faster than fast non-troopers eg. light mechs (which is highly unrecommended, and would unbalance the sniper) or simply give the snipers cloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 And cloaking doesn't make them unbalanced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 No! Cloaking makes them balanced. That's what I've been trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Oyyyyy!!!!! *to lazy to post all the reasons why cloaking would make snipers unbalanced.... *waiting for someone else to do it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Maybe you just can't think of any reasons. Maybe that means there aren't any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Ok because you asked so nicely:D -They will simply slaughter troopers without any hope for retaliation(is that spelled correctly?) -Counter them would bring more micro which as a result it will not motivate people. -They will slaughter workers and slaughter your econ. I know there is more. I just can't remember them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 - They're supposed to be good against troopers. However, there'll be plenty of hope for retaliation by anything that isn't troopers, and the snipers will be slaughtered. - Do you call trundling some non-troopers and detectors over and killing the snipers micro? Perhaps someone focussing on and skilled with snipers can cause a sizeable deal of annoyance, but a good defending player should be able to take the snipers down easily. - Only if your workers and econ aren't protected by anything but troopers. Put up a turret (which detects cloaked units) and the snipers are dead. Even put up a turret which doesn't detect and hustle your workers into there. Or put them in the command center. The snipers won't be able to do anything but float and sputter! (sorry, been playing Halo too much... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 So turrets are supposed to see cloaked units....hmm didn't know about that...they wouldn't be balanced or unbalanced then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Corran, how are the snipers unbalanced w/o the cloak? And what balance issue does the cloak fix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 UHOH! The three thread destroyers are in a thread! It's strange how this thread is still on-topic after 4 pages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Luke's dad- I don't know about the turrets; it was just an example. I think this thread is still on-topic because we aren't agreeing about the issue. I think that in all the others, the main topic just petered out because either a) no-one cared or b) we settled it, and we didn't care. Sith: I could just tell you to look up, but I'm going to be nice and tell you. Okay. Without cloak, snipers will quite easily fail to fulfill their function- killing troopers without being detected. Without cloak, a sniper could fall to a single wandering non-trooper. Without cloak, a sniper could even fall to a bunch of wandering troopers. Sure, the sniper would take out some of them, but without cloak and with low health+speed, the sniper is a sitting duck to them and to practically anything else. That's not what the snipers are about, and that's far too weak to be a sniper. This might be rectified with a speed/health/damage increase, but I think cloak just makes it more fun and makes it a lot more like a sniper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 When did I say that snipers should be used solo or solitary? Of course it will lose one on one with non-troopers. It costs less and doesn't benefit from its bonus. I can think of numerous units that die easily to what they dont counter and can be tken out with a handful of units tht they do couter IF only one is used. And the cloak does diddly-squat to absolve your "problems", but it creates problems of its own, namely being its hellish hit and run capabilities and pure econ destroying might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I said that snipers could only be used in groups of ten, and although a group of ten could take out a larger group of troopers, it would be so simple for the trooper player to move over a single mech and vaporise the snipers. Of course it will lose one-on-one with non-troopers when it's been detected. Your expensive force of elite snipers shouldn't be destroyed simply because there was a single non-detecting mech on patrol. I can think of numerous units too, but the sniper is a lot different. Snipers should be pretty good solo, and be able to take out a handful of troopers. That's what they're designed for. The cloak easily solves all of my problems. Its hit-and-run capabilities can easily be countered. "Econ destroying might"? Only if the player is stupid enough to protect his entire economy solely with troopers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 No unit should be good solo, especially not a trooper with a slow reload rate. If its got a slow reload and semi-weak hp, it aint going one on one with anything. And expensive means expensive for a trooper, ie SM>Sniper>Grenadier, so they are meant to be massed to relatively small companiesand sit behind the melee inflicting heavy damage or harrassing villagers or forward buildings. They are already good at these roles. Why? Because they have good range. Range is their protection, their strength. Cloaking them just amplifies their strength from range and makes them overpowered. Oh, yeah, a little side note: Cloaking is detected when you are attacked by a cloaked unit, so the troopers will instantly know your position. Your "problem" is still broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Why, oh why oh why shouldn't the sniper be good solo? Why shouldn't any unit be good solo? Jedi are pretty good solo... It's not a trooper. It's an anti-trooper, for god's sake. Troopers aren't good against it. I mean, a bunch of troopers can kill it, but a bunch of troopers can kill a mech too, and they're not designed for that. If it's got a slow reload, semi-weak hp and cloak, nobody would bother using it solo against anything but troopers. And as for one-on-one, what about taking out solo wandering troopers? Expensive means expensive for a sniper, and expensive that fits in with the (unknown) game balance of GB2. And a SM isn't a trooper, so you've ruined your own argument anyway. They aren't meant to be massed. They're meant to be used solo or in small groups as ambushers or irritants, harrassing troopers and only troopers. They are good at these roles with cloak. Range is no protection against a solo, vaguely fast, wandering non-trooper, thus the snipers die. Painfully. Without cloak, my sniper is underpowered. With cloak, it's balanced and fun. A side note on the side note: Stop thinking GB1. This is GB2. However, I've been thinking. Perhaps the sniper would uncloak when it's firing at a non-trooper unit, because then it'd be foolish to even take a few potshots at the aforementioned wandering mech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I agree about the being used solo part. I think they'd have to de-cloak everytime they fired or it would not be balanced. Thinking back to the way I've seen snipers used and they ways I've seen cloaking used I have a few comments: Well I don't have as much experience with the newer RTS, but thinking back to Red Alert 2, what was wrong with the way snipers were used in that? Sure you can see straight away where he is, but it was a balanced and realistic way to represent the sniper. If you want him cloaked, again thinking of RA2, the mirage tank is an interesting idea where it disguises itself as a tree and only becomes seen when it fires. I'm not saying disguise it as a tree but that way it was pretty atmospheric. In StarCraft they didn't have snipers but they had a few cloaking units, none of which decloaked when they attacked. However, they way in which they attacked made it immediately obvious where they were, you just needed a detector in the area before you could target them and kill them. This wouldn't really fit the sniper, because their attacks are supposed to not reveal them. In summary I like the Mirage Tank idea when it comes to cloaking. But would the sniper be detectable when not-firing, then? Otherwise I like the RA2 sniper, simple and effective, but not overpowered. Well I've sort of rambled. Basically I don't care if it's cloaked or not. It all depends on how it's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I don't really know much about the RA2 sniper. Could you fill me in a bit? I simply don't see how not de-cloaking when firing on troopers could unbalance it. It fits with the sniper's purpose and in fact enhances the fact that snipers are terrible against anything but troopers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Well I can't remember what it was like price-wise, but it was basically a guy who moved slightly slower than normal troops, with huge range that was out of LOS of most things, a long reload time (about 5 seconds or more) and his shots killed infantry in one shot. Can't remember anything else much. The thing about RA2 is that life was pretty cheap. There were heaps of units that could kill other units in one shot. Apart from snipers, there were SEALs, who could run into buildings and blow them up; tanks that could kill other tanks in one shot; chronolegionnaire or whatever they were called that had a weapon that could phase anything out of existence in a few seconds; psychics that could mind control units instantly; and my favourite, those guys who carried around nuclear thingys and when they set them off everything in a radius got damage that was enough to kill infantry outright. I still remember seeing the commercial in my local games shop that showed them in action. About fifty guys just melting and then the familiar "unit lost" from the computer voice. So I'm not sure how well this guy would work in SWGB2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Jedi also cost a crap load, have insane hp/armor and a decent attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I'm not sure if that was a response to my post, but what I meant was that in RA2 the sniper was expected to die after he'd taken a few shots. Presumably in SWGB2 we'd like our units to live a little longer. So that style of sniper may not suit SWGB2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Vostok, I think you've said yourself why the RA2 sniper wouldn't fit with GB2. It's just a different game, and it's the kind of different game where things die very, very quickly. I think that in GB2, not many things will kill things very, very quickly. The sniper is one of those few. Also- It seems that this RA2 sniper didn't have cloak and could be used in large groups. The GB2 sniper (that I'm proposing) isn't like that. He's an elite, silent killer good at solo or small-group ambush of moving troopers. He's also an irritant- picking off troopers as they come out of your base, or taking out unprotected workers. He's expensive yet worth the cost, but not designed to be massed or used in all-out battle. He falls quickly to most units, using his cloak as protection, and fleeing when threatened with detection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 How is RA2 different in gameplay to SWGB? Both are RTS's and have similar units anyway, just less sides to choose from. The RA2 sniper would work very well in SWGB or SWGB2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Well I think the main deterrant from using groups of snipers in RA2 was that I seem to remember they took ages to build. And in a game whose objective was "race to the superweapons" it wasn't worth getting a group. And since in the Westwood games no matter how many barracks you have you can only produce units from one of them, sniper groups weren't feasible. And Windu, while they are both RTS that doesn't make them similar. Not many units are similar at all. I've said before I'm not fussed if it is or is not cloaked, as long as it is done well. At the moment cloaking in the game comes from Jedi Mind Tricks. From this point of view there could be problems making a non-Jedi unit with a cloak. However, you could make the sniper cloak when amongst a certain terrain, similar to the way the Gungan frigate works. But there are problems with that too. Maybe making the sniper cloaked while he is still, but visible while moving? This would reflect reality, and make them more strategic to use well. Also, how do you propose to make the sniper not feasible to use in large groups? People will do it, and it just won't seem right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Hey that's not a bad idea. Cloaked only while standing still! That's great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Then whats the point? They can still wreck economies (just dont move'em when the troops come) and does nothing to fix Corran's "problems". I prefer it if they would have no cloak, and possibly a beefier attack or smaller price tag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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