Snipers

[CorranSec]

The Infiltrator (I'm sick of saying Infiltration War Machine) isn't really a unit with a special ability. It requires a bit more micro, sure, but once it unloads its units it still gets down to hack 'n slash (or blast 'n duck, as it were).

 

It seems to be that in the movies, practically everything is won with special abilities- namely, force powers. I don't think that the Force just makes your stats increase...

 

What's so bad about lots of people with special abilities? That's part of the fun of WC3- actually getting in there and focussing on your units and what they do, rather than just having lines of identical soldiers blasting away at each other.

 

Also, by the time GB2 comes out (Episode III time), units with exciting special abilities are probably going to be in most RTS games, and those games without are going to seem quite dull.

 

Special abilities (or at least the ones I'm planning) don't take away from the normal fighting in any way. In fact, they enhance it. Amongst the typical lines of units doing battle, some will be using special abilities and techniques to hone their fighting skills, while others will be using tactical abilities (eg. cloaking) for varying purposes.

[Admiral Vostok]

Actually only two of the five Star Wars battles in the movies were won through the use of the Force. Yavin was won explicitely by Luke's use of the Force, and Naboo was won on Anakin's good luck, which is attributed to the Force. The other three battles' outcomes were unaffected by the Force at all, even though there were hundreds of Jedi at Geonosis.

 

So that's less than half. And anyway, like I said, the Force SHOULD be a special ability so Jedi are more interesting. Go giving lots of units special abilities and Jedi won't seem as powerful.

What's so bad about lots of people with special abilities? That's part of the fun of WC3- actually getting in there and focussing on your units and what they do, rather than just having lines of identical soldiers blasting away at each other.

Now I'm pretty sure you don't want SWGB2 to be like WC3, do you? And besides, in all the Star Wars movies I have seen the epic battles ARE identical soldiers blasting away at each other.

units with exciting special abilities are probably going to be in most RTS games

I totally disagree with that statement. Most of the new RTS games coming out now DON'T have lots of special ability units. What has prompted you to say this? Because you think it is cool?

[CorranSec]

I think that Luke's use of the Force took down some AT-ATs on Hoth, delaying the invasion force and allowing Rebels to escape.

There were two turning points in the Battle of Endor: The defeat of the Emperor, and the destruction of the second Death Star's core. The former can be attributed to use of the Force, and the latter can be attributed to an incredibly accurate shot- both what I would consider special abilities.

If the Force-using Jedi weren't at Geonosis, the battle would have turned out quite differently, I should say.

 

There are plenty of things that occured in the epic battles that could be turned into special abilities, or at least things in gameplay.

And as of right now, I'm not trying to give everyone 'special abilities'. Just a few units, such as Field Officers, Infiltrators, snipers, submersibles.

And anyway, special abilities don't have to be tide-turning. They can be fun little things like B-Wings closing S-foils, A-Wings converting laser power to engine power, X-Wings having proton torpedoes. Last I heard, you liked those ideas.

 

WC3 has plenty of special abilities. In the Battle Realms X-pack, "Tales of the Wolf" (or some such), practically every unit has an activatable ability. AoM's myth units and heroes have special abilities like tossing units at other units or raising the stats of surrounding units. I'm pretty sure the RoN units have special abilities.... and so on.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I thought about this and I wouldn't mind same units having special abilities, AS LONG AS THEY STAY TRUE TO THE MOVIES, which an Infiltrator does not. However, I think if this happens Jedi should be given MORE special abilities to be the stand-out unit they deserve to be.

 

Well I'll admit that Luke did use the Force to take down a single AT-AT. But I don't think it changed the course of the battle at all.

The defeat of the Emperor was not a turning point in the Battle of Endor, as he would have died anyway when the Death Star blew up. And I don't think the shot was "incredibly accurate". It doesn't take much skill to shoot a huge, non-moving object when you're flying straight towards it.

The presence of the Jedi may have helped win the Battle of Geonosis, but I personally believe the Clones were powerful enough to have won the battle on their own.

So I stand by my previous statement.

[lukeiamyourdad]

An infiltrator is not a very good idea. if it can carry trooper size units and infiltrate inside an enemy base it would really be overpowered. think about bringing masters with that thing. the enemy won't even know what's in it and a few minutes later, they're all dead.

 

Jedi are enoughly powerful as they are except Jedi knights which should be enhanced a bit.

[CorranSec]

Vostok: I was always planning to make the Jedi more powerful, and (more importantly) to have special abilities instead of increased stats.

 

Every AT-AT counts, and I think Luke did a pretty good job.

I believe that it would have taken some amazing flying on Wedge's part (and Lando+Nien's) to get in there, take out the reactor, and get the hell out of there.

The Jedi were incredibly important in the arena battle. I mean, without them, there wouldn't have been an arena battle. Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme would be dead, Jango would still be alive, and so on... the entire course of the SW plotline would have been changed.

 

Luke's dad: The Infiltrator is merely designed to carry trooper-sized units around swiftly and undetected. It wouldn't be anything like what you're suggesting.

 

The balance of GB2 will be different to GB1, and hopefully Jedi will be made more powerful and have more special abilities, but still within game balance.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well Wedge took down just as many AT-ATs as Luke (maybe more that we didn't see), and he isn't especially strong in the Force. And we are (or at least I am) talking about winning battles with Force-powers, and while Wedge and Lando are good flyers they do not have any Force-powers.

 

But I'll give you the Arena Battle. Though that was just part of the Battle of Geonosis at large which was won by Clone Troopers not Jedi:

Obi-Wan: "I have to admit that without the Clones it would not have been a victory."

The absence of the Jedi at the Arena would have meant the death of Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme, and Jango would still be alive. It would have changed the course of history but the Battle would still have been won by the Republic.

 

Now back to your stealth machine... you want to make it swift? Now that is not balanced at all. It would have to move very slowly to be stealthy in my opinion.

[CorranSec]

Wedge and Janson have great skills which can't be reflected simply by increased stats, seeing as it's their actual flying ability and not their increased laser power.

 

I consider changing the course of history to be pretty important, don't you? Without the Jedi at the Arena, the SW original trilogy wouldn't exist. Think of it that way.

 

The stealth machine is swift because it's designed to get troopers from point A to point B without being detected. This is generally because at point C (in between) there's something bad that you don't want to be noticed by.

 

Without speed, the Infiltrator is pretty useless. The troopers might as well walk where they want to go.

[lukeiamyourdad]

which is why troopers should just walk to point B.....no need for an infiltrator...besides what good can it be if it can only transport such a limited number of troopers?

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran, I was talking about the Force and winning single battles, not pilotting skills and the fate of the galaxy in general.

 

Besides, are you talking about the inclusion of skills for pilots to emulate Wedge and Janson? If so it would be better to make them hero units, which can only be available through the scenario editor or in certain campaigns, rather than have buildable aircraft with a "use good pilotting" skill.

 

And for the sake of gameplay a unit cannot be both fast and stealthy. If it is stealthy but slow the troopers can get by undetected. If it is speedy but visible, the troopers can zoom through the danger. There is an advantage to either way but to have them both is too unbalanced, and not very good for gameplay.

 

But that is irrelevant as the IWM should not be included at all.

[CorranSec]

Luke's dad: The whole point is that normally troopers would walk to point B, but in this case it's better to be cloaked. Thus, the Infiltrator.

Would you rather it transport large groups of troopers? Just think of game balance.

 

Vostok:

I'm talking of the inclusion of special abilities that emulate the skills and abilities of the pilots. This would be for gameplay, realism and entertainment value.

I'm trying to include special tricks or tactics that could be used. X-Wings being pursued by TIE fighters could try a Corellian Slip. Two different groups of fighters could use an A-Wing Slash. Snowspeeders attacking large mechs could use tow cables. TF droid starfighters could switch to walk mode. Infiltrators could cloak... and so on.

[Sithmaster_821]

Corran: I have three words for your "special abilities"- Gameplay over realism

[CorranSec]

Did you read my post?

gameplay, realism and entertainment value

Why would they damage gameplay?

[Admiral Vostok]

They would damage gameplay in that there is too many things a single unit can do. In the Blizzard games that is okay - they are skirmish based games with not a huge amount of units. But if you have a different skill for each aircraft in the game it gets too complicated. Example:

"Oh no, my X-Wings are being pursued by TIE Fighters. I could be in trouble. Wait a minute, I think the X-Wings can do a Corellian Slip. What does that do again? I'll just hover my mouse over the icon so it says a desrciption... oh, yeah! I want them to do that! Oh, they're dead already. Damn, if I had just attacked, an X-Wing is better than a TIE Fighter anyway, so I would still be alive."

Skills like what you are suggesting can change the course of minor skirmishes, but not entire battles. And I don't think you can use Wedge's taking out of the Death Star as evidence against my statement, the Battles in SWGB2 won't be dependant on the destruction of a single giant battlestation. Besides, I don't think X-Wings should have a "Fly really well and shoot your target accurately" skill.

 

I think skills and abilities should be limited to Jedi and, if they're included, Officers.

[CorranSec]

X-Wings won't have a Corellian Slip. That's fine with me, because we already agreed they'd have "Open/Close S-foils."

I'm just suggesting fun additions that could change indeed the course of large battles, and all have their (balanced) uses. What's wrong with that?

[Admiral Vostok]

Well special abilities would have to be fairly limited I'd say. Otherwise they cease to be special and just become "abilities".

I'd limit them to abilities we see in the movies (s-foils, towcables, droid walkers).

 

But this still doesn't explain how your IWM is good. Or for that matter your spy fighter. There is just no good argument to include them, when we already have such interesting units available to us that are already part of Star Wars. Especially if we allow special abilities for some units, the only argument for including these totally made-up units is merely for the sake of more units. If we are to have more units, I'd rather them not be so powerful that people say "this is so cool, why wasn't it in the movies?" They should be included for balance, not for "make it cool" reasons. Star Wars is cool enough.

[CorranSec]

Star Wars may be cool enough, but the game isn't cool enough. I'm coolyfiying it as well as including things to balance it out.

 

You'd rather not have cool non-movie units? Why? Do you want to restrict anything from being better than the movies?

 

The IWM is good for getting troopers from point A to point B without having to deal with something bad in point C.

 

The spy fighter is incredibly important. Air forces must be the equal of ground forces (see several thousand other threads for explanations), and the spy fighter is an airborne scout.

[Admiral Vostok]

But they just aren't Star-Warsy! They would be great in another game but this is Star Wars and they don't belong.

The IWM is good for getting troopers from point A to point B without having to deal with something bad in point C.

Why didn't they use them in the Battle of Naboo to get into the palace undetected? Why didn't they use them in the Battle of Geonosis when they are clearly better transports than Gunships? Why didn't they use them on Hoth to get past the trenchs and plant bombs on the generator?

The spy fighter is incredibly important. Air forces must be the equal of ground forces (see several thousand other threads for explanations), and the spy fighter is an airborne scout.

If they're so important how come they aren't used in the movies? Air forces should be the equivalent of ground forces, and an airborne scout should exist. And they do in the form of Jedi Starfighters, A-Wings, TIE Interceptors, etc... If spy fighters existed couldn't the technology be used to better infiltrate the Endor Strike Team? Or perhaps spy fighters would have been a better thing to use than probe droids in trying to locate a Rebel Base? Perhaps with a spy fighter the Rebels could have taken a look at exactly what was in store for them at Endor?

Nothing in SWGB1 was all that bad, even the pummel and cannon, because there is an argument that they do exist but we just didn't see any seiges, so they aren't seen in the movies. But there is no argument for why we haven't seen these things you're sugesting (except for the fact that they are invisible), because there was every opportunity to use them in the movies. Is SWGB1 a bad game because of its lack of IWMs and Spy Fighters? No! And neither will SWGB2 be.

[Darth Windu]

Originally posted by CorranSec

 

[1] Star Wars may be cool enough, but the game isn't cool enough. I'm coolyfiying it as well as including things to balance it out.

 

You'd rather not have cool non-movie units? Why? Do you want to restrict anything from being better than the movies?

 

The IWM is good for getting troopers from point A to point B without having to deal with something bad in point C.

 

The spy fighter is incredibly important.

 

[2] Air forces must be the equal of ground forces (see several thousand other threads for explanations), and the spy fighter is an airborne scout.

 

[1] Not likely, you are trying to make it a pathetic excuse for a Star Wars game, with units and tactics that have absolutely no basis in the movies. That is not cool.

 

[2] WRONG. Air Forces have always been, and will always be, a SUPPORT force for both Land and Naval forces. Although aircraft are very powerful and can turn the tide of a battle and even a war, at the end of the day you need a soldier on the groud in order to be able to control it.

[lukeiamyourdad]

May I remind you that the game's name will be:

 

Star Wars GalacticBattleGROUNDS

 

Ground>Air

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu - you're using real-world examples again. In Star Wars the Air Force plays a larger role than it does in our world. Entire battles are fought just with the Air Force (Yavin).

 

Luke's Dad - good point, but you still want an air component, do you not?

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - what a lot of people fail to understand here is that Star Wars is based on the real world. Even on earth there have been many pure-air campaigns that changed history, the 'Battle of Britain' comes to mind. However, do you think the allies could have defeated Germany with air power alone? No.

 

There has to be an air component in this sort of game, but again i say that air forces have always been, and will always be, a support force.

[CorranSec]

Vostok:

1. How do you know they're not "star-warsy?" Is every unit in the current GB "star-warsy?"

2. In the interests of the plotline. Movies are different from games.

3. They're important for a civilisation engaged in pitched battle with another civilisation. You will never find anything like a "Random Map" game in the movies. Movies are different from games.

Jedi Starfighters are by no means designed for scouting. They're powerful craft with exceptional space superiority capabilities, but no cloaking power whatsoever.

A-Wings can be used to scout, but a cloaked unit would be far more effective.

TIE interceptors are like A-Wings. The two of them already fill the 'speedy fighter' slot.

4. GB2 could be a better game with spy fighters and IWMs. They wouldn't fit into the balance of GB1, but they'd be great in GB2.

We did see sieges in the movies! But nonetheless, the pummel and cannon would've been good if they weren't such obvious leftovers from AoK. And even so, they still have their uses in gameplay.

 

Windu:

1. I'm trying to add in a small number of units which Vostok doesn't see as being "star-warsy." Don't overreact.

2. No way. Do you understand that this is Star Wars, not Real Life? Space forces have been, and will always be, the main force used in Star Wars. But am I trying to make them the most powerful force? No. They're equal with ground. Stop using real-world examples!

In SW, you don't need a soldier on the ground to control it. An X-Wing can achieve a lot more than a stormtrooper ever could.

 

What you fail to understand is that Star Wars is Star Wars, and using real-world examples will get you nowhere. Did the Rebels manage to defeat the Death Star with air power alone? Yes.

 

Luke's dad:

The term "battleground" refers to an area where battles are fought. The sea is a battleground. The atmosphere is a battleground. An asteroid belt is a battleground. Space is a battleground.

[Darth Windu]

Corran - WRONG. The space forces in Star Wars are equivalent to the Naval Forces in the real world. You do know that lucas based the starfighter combat's on WW2 combat footage right?

 

Anyway during the US 'island-hopping' campaign of WW2, why didnt they just send it a few squadrons of F4U's or F6F's instead of ground troops? BECAUSE TO CONTROL A PIECE OF LAND YOU NEED TROOPS. That is the vital piece of information you continuously fail to understand. I have studied battles and military forces for many years, and in the majority of battles, air forces were used to support ground forces, not the other way around.

 

Air forces are very important, but they cannot do everything. At the end of the day, you need ground troops.

 

just remember that ground>air

[Sithmaster_821]

Corran, I remember back when I told you that air forces should never be anything but support in a GROUND based game. Yes, Yavin and Endor were fought mostly with planes, but, guess what, they happened in space:eek: In ground campaigns, air ain't nothing more than a support force. They have good raiding capabilities as well as recon, but never are strong enough to be considered equal to ground forces on ground forces turf. Take the battle at the end of AotC. Were the fleet of gunships equal to the reps entire ground forces? Or were they another component like the jedi, troopers, mechs, and heavy weapons?

 

Special abilities-Bad idea. in WC3, battles are decided by who ever has the better hero that has stronger spells. Multiple weapons or positions are not only micro-intensive and complicated, they also tend to be unbalanced. The reason Blizzard can do that is because the rest of their game is relative simple balance-wise.