Suggestions for the next 'Jedi' game

[Toa Tahu]

Yeah,I'd really like what you'd say about the storyline,ComRaven.That's what I'd think the next Jedi game should be about.

 

As for the boos-encounter,there should be a VERY VAGUE chance that you MIGHT beat him/her,then there should be a change in the main storyline.This brings for more open-endedness storyline.I like!

[master_thomas]

About the npcs, what you said reminds me of "Massive", the program used in Lord of the Rings for the major battles. It would be much better if that happened than things like: enemies with blasters make more evasive maneuvers, like the rebels who move alot and the enemies with strong weapons, like rocket launchers stay still and fire. And of course, an enemy with no weapon will run along waypoints until they reach a point_combat and stand there and put their hands up like idiots as you point a blaster at their head. This is how it worked in Jedi Outcast. Those stormtroopers are too trusting.

 

And about the cutscenes, I think you are right that more storyline happens during gameplay and I also don't like when you talk to an allied NPC ("use" key) they say "did you hear something?" over and over again. You should choose what you say and get a response based on that and if you already asked or said that, they will mention that you did. I'm pretty sure they could have been annoyed by repitition with things like target_counters, which target script runners that edited the use script, which was a sound and anim. This could have improved realism in JO.

[ILR]

I think the lightsaber should be controled by the mouse. Button 1 will move it on the direction you want to attack, and button 2 will move it in the direction you want to defend.

 

"But how will they look around?" When your fighting someone in a duel whats the point of having the mouse control over the direction of you player? He's right in your face, you don't need to worry about him sneaking away! A lock on system would work fine (much like zelda).

 

The movement of the saber would be as costomized as the movement of your mouse. There wouldn't be any need for nifty tricks or watered down dueling, just straight forward lightsaber logic: If the saber's in the way, then they bounce, if not, then your dead.

 

Of course this is all ideas really.. I don't know how the player would handle this. And I don't know if there would be any nasty way to manipulate this. I can't imagine how, since its the most direct video game translation to the real thing!

[ryudom]

i don't think that saber system would work well in the JK series, it being an FPS and all... i think alot of people enjoy the FPS freedom of total control

[ILR]

Funny you mention control, because the first lacking that comes to mind when playing JK is control. I have no direct control over which direction I swing the saber, I instead have to move my character in the direction I want and hope for the best. This form of middle man saber slashing is extremely irritating. I think its kinda silly that a game where you duel with light sabers from the third person perspective should be called a "first person shooter". Lightsaber duels don't follow FPS gameplay the least bit, so why should the game be designed around a FPS style of playing?

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by ILR

The movement of the saber would be as costomized as the movement of your mouse. There wouldn't be any need for nifty tricks or watered down dueling, just straight forward lightsaber logic: If the saber's in the way, then they bounce, if not, then your dead.

 

While it might give you potentially more control (while facing forward)...it might not make the gameplay better - especially where defence is concerned. In Jedi Knight and Outcast, blocking is automatic, just look in the direction of the blade coming at you...so it's pretty intuitive, and easy for the majority of gamers to handle. If you start turning it into a saber-sim, I think a lot of gamers would get frustrated with it and stop playing, because they weren't quick enough to block an attack coming in from a particular direction. I personally wouldn't mind just hitting a key to do a manual defend (rather than have it all automatic)...but still retain an auto-animation to block based on where you're looking.

 

There is also the problem that it would need excellent per-pixel collision detection to make it work properly...and if a saber can hit another saber from any angle, surely that increases the performance overhead, rather than simply having a set number of moves to deal with? Also, how would the animation of each saber stroke handle that, if it was completely freeform movement? I don't know...

 

Anyway, I'm not a fan of having no mouselook either.

 

Originally posted by Toa Tahu

Yeah,I'd really like what you'd say about the storyline,ComRaven.That's what I'd think the next Jedi game should be about.

 

ComRaven?

[ILR]

Originally posted by StormHammer

While it might give you potentially more control (while facing forward)...it might not make the gameplay better - especially where defence is concerned. In Jedi Knight and Outcast, blocking is automatic, just look in the direction of the blade coming at you...so it's pretty intuitive, and easy for the majority of gamers to handle. If you start turning it into a saber-sim, I think a lot of gamers would get frustrated with it and stop playing, because they weren't quick enough to block an attack coming in from a particular direction. I personally wouldn't mind just hitting a key to do a manual defend (rather than have it all automatic)...but still retain an auto-animation to block based on where you're looking.

 

 

I agree with your concern. In my idea I was on the fence about automatic defense and manual defense. The reason I wanted to avoid the 'press a button for perfect defense' is that you'll get a newb who'll just sit there with the defense button held down and nobody will go no where fast. I was also concern about the ambiguousness of auto blocking. Because the computer can't predict where the attacks are coming from, we see animations that are sudden and jerky. These are equally difficult to predict for the player. How the computer decides to randomly block will affect how the player counter attacks. Parries and counter attacks are the weakest part of the current JK system and that's the part this idea of mine is supposed to focus on.

 

I was only thinking of 1v1 duels when thinking this up, so mouse look wont be sorely missed . Of course, that targeting thing I mentioned isn't set in stone or anything... am I the only person who ever played Zelda for the 64? -_-;; You can turn that on and off with the press of a button. It's easy and convenient. Perfect for sword play.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by ILR

Of course, that targeting thing I mentioned isn't set in stone or anything... am I the only person who ever played Zelda for the 64? -_-;; You can turn that on and off with the press of a button. It's easy and convenient. Perfect for sword play.

 

I haven't played that...but I've played Severance: Blade Of Darkness, which allows you to lock on (and switch between) targets. While it worked quite well in that game, it had the effect of slowing down the combat a bit.

 

RUNE also allowed targeting...but I hardly ever used it except against stationery opponents.

 

I agree that in a 1v1 scenario it could work...but it get's a lot trickier when facing more than one opponent.

[Guest Jolts]

the free swing type of system sounds good on paper, but in use I think it starts to fall apart and ends up looking pretty dull. As far as a lock on function, Obi wan used it and it worked well for 1on1 fighting of the jedi council members or the jin ha. In 5 or more people battles it ended up making it easier for you to get jacked up by enemies always running around behind you and shooting you in the back. I'm not against any game adding more options like this, the more options the better...toggle baby, toggle.

[ILR]

hehe.. yeah.. I'd definitly make it a toggle. One of the most important things I try to remember when designing a game is to always give the player the option when it comes to things like this. The game would work both ways, so it'll be up to the player to hit that target button.

 

Unfortunately if the player still has mouse look, then saber control will have to fall into pre-programed animations.

 

Let me try and say this differently.. anyone play the Star Wars arcade that was made by Sega? The one where you sat down and had a joystick for control. There was a bonus mission in that where you could face Dearth Vader. That was the best game translation of a lightsaber battle I've ever played. I moved the saber where I needed to block, and his saber bounced away accordingly. There were no charts or graphs or point systems involved in deciphering the action. I could play the game just by looking at it. Now THAT would be a sweet dueling mod.

[StormHammer]

Taking a broader view for a moment...one game I am looking forward to this year is Mace Griffin: Bounty Hunter. Why? Because it will allow you to fly (and fight) in space ships, and then land and step out of them to go running around on foot.

 

In my mind, this is exactly the kind of thing the Jedi Knight series needs, even if it is limited. It helps to break up the monotony of being on foot all of the time...and it is true to the Star Wars universe, where you have some space battles.

 

Even if the engine is incapable of realising this...then I think it would help to have a few more levels aboard space craft - perhaps even a level where you have to defend one from being boarded. Taking that a step further, you could even have something like the 'defend the base' levels in Unreal 2...set up some auto-turrets in certain locations, seal blast doors, etc., until either help arrives, or you buy time for others to get off the ship.

 

As far as mini-games go, I wouldn't mind something similar (but different) to 'shoot-the-TIE-fighter' as seen in JO. Perhaps you man a mounted blaster canon on the back of a speeder, or something, and have to shoot at pursuers. Or stand in the door of a dropship and pick off targets from the air prior to landing in a hot zone. And then, of course, I'd love to be able to sit down and play Sabacc in some seedy back-street cantina - perhaps to try and win enough credits to pay for something. These sorts of things need not be excessive, but can help to break up simply running-and-gunning. I'd also like to see them expand elements like taking someone prisoner and forcing them to help you (I loved that in JO), and some more escort type missions. I think I've mentioned elsewhere about maybe slicing into an Imperial Probe droid (or similar) and flying it around to scout the terrain, and maybe launch a sneak attack...and taking that a step further, is there the possibility of using some form of Jedi meditation to allow you to perceive things - like an astral projection flying around. Of course, your body would be vulnerable at such moments.

 

I really liked the way they added this sort of thing in JO - the only thing I didn't like was the GAME OVER screen if you failed to save enough of those prisoners while shooting from the turret, for example. The only time I want a GAME OVER screen is when the character I'm playing gets killed.

 

Anyone else agree/disagree about the mini-game elements? And what would you like to see?

[Toa Tahu]

Hey,StormHammer,I am SO sorry for saying you were ComRaven.I just got confused between you and the other guy from SwKnights.com.So sorry.

 

Anyway,I do agree with you,also,about the mini-games thing.However,most people won't want such things in a FPS,although it'll make things more interesting.Buying new weapons,new this,new that,zada,zip! is a nice thing in a FPS,but will you guys like it?Personally,I DO like it though.

 

Yeah,I also don't like it if suddenly this comes up:

"Game Over

(so and so) is killed."

 

That sucked in JO!I never liked to 'lose' just because someone you can't help died.(in Kejim Post,something like that happened.Jan 'died'.)They(the developers) should make it so such that if something happens,there IS a CONTINGENCY plan for you to execute.In fact,not one,but more that one of them to execute,should anything happen.The storyline should also follow suit depending on which plan you chose.That would be interesting.

 

I personally also like a Saber sim too.Why not make the saber in its full glory,rather than just a small glorification of a glorious thing?However,I don't quite agree with ILR's format of combat.

A type of combat suitable would be something in-between Severance:BoD and Morrowind.You don't neecessarily need to lock on to your enemy,but the enemy don't need to be so weak either(so weak as to die in a single shot...)As a plus(I think it is),you get to hold your shot so you deal maximum damage,active blocking(a single shot won't do much damage,but more of them sure would deal exponential damage;i.e.1 shot=2dmg,2nd shot=5dmg,3rd shot=9dmg and so on so forth)And things like that.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Toa Tahu

Hey,StormHammer,I am SO sorry for saying you were ComRaven.I just got confused between you and the other guy from SwKnights.com.So sorry.

 

Heh. No worries. Just thought I was posting in the wrong thread for a moment.

 

Buying new weapons,new this,new that,zada,zip! is a nice thing in a FPS,but will you guys like it?Personally,I DO like it though.

 

What a good idea. Have some shops in the game, like Jedi Knight had, so you can go in and pick up supplies and either buy or steal a nice-looking weapon. Baron's Hed was one of my favourite levels, it has to be said...

 

Yeah,I also don't like it if suddenly this comes up:

"Game Over

(so and so) is killed."

 

That sucked in JO!I never liked to 'lose' just because someone you can't help died.(in Kejim Post,something like that happened.Jan 'died'.)They(the developers) should make it so such that if something happens,there IS a CONTINGENCY plan for you to execute.In fact,not one,but more that one of them to execute,should anything happen.The storyline should also follow suit depending on which plan you chose.That would be interesting.

 

Yep - I knew there was another one - Jan. Thanks.

 

It's not really that hard to do to put in some contingency. Sure you can put a key NPC in a dangerous situation...but if they're important to the plot later on...then why not (a) make them invincible, and just make it seem to the player that they are in danger of dying - because it's no less exciting having to rescue your partner, even if they're in no real danger, (b) let that NPC be captured by enemy forces, and then give you an optional side-quest of freeing them from captivity before or after you've completed your main objective.

 

So it means a bit of extra work...but it also improves the gameplay, and makes the situation more realistic to the player because they never have to reload a level to try again unless their own character dies.

[Toa Tahu]

As again,I agree with you,StormHammer.it doesn't sound that hard to put in just some contingency...why don't they just make the life of the NPC's MUCH longer...like 2000 in game units,so they don't die so fast,or rather,'cornily end the game so fast'.

 

As for Baron's Hed(level 5 JK1),it really felt like a earthly-town,not one in the Star Wars universe.That was the one with the most NPC's,I like.If only they could have toned up the interaction with them more.or,if you attacked one,the rest in the area would attack you back in self defense.Such interaction would affect certain things in the game.That would rock.

 

BTW,why is it only me and StormHammer replying to this topic?Reply more,guys.Awaiting your replies.Thanks.

 

Oh yeah,how come I don't get points if someone replies to this topic?

[Guest Jolts]

I ripped all the sound from obi wan and have been listening to it, and there is a lot of npc dialog in there that sounds like they had a decent ammount of side quests originally. It would have been great if they actually used it. As far as JO, with a 1 year dev time they didn't have time to implement npc type interaction you would see in something like deus ex.

 

It would be nice to have some dick tracy investation type missions before you go off and blow up some secret imperial base. Hopefully this addon/sequel isn't the only jedi game they have lined up.

[Toa Tahu]

Yup,I also agree on you with that last part,Jolts.I would also like such type of optional missions that COULD affect the gameplay of the main quest.That would be nice.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Jolts

It would be nice to have some dick tracy investation type missions before you go off and blow up some secret imperial base. Hopefully this addon/sequel isn't the only jedi game they have lined up.

 

Yeah, that's a good idea. Give it a better build-up with some better stealth elements, etc. And little side-quests that may not affect the main plot very much, but offer you rewards that can help you later on.

 

Heh...and talking about Dick Tracy...what SW characters would you like to see in a sequel/expansion? We had Luke, Lando and Mon Mothma in JO.

 

I think it would be nice to see Wedge Antilles pop up somewhere, and get Rogue Squadron involved in part of the plot.

[Vairtis]

I would like it to be a open envirement instead of having the staightforward shootout. By open envirement I mean like Zelda: Ocarina Of Time or Zelda: Majoras Mask. Just me and my 1 and 1/4 sence

[Vairtis]

it's hard on the eyes with strike trough so Zelda Ocarina of time or Zelda Majoras mask

[ryudom]

lol that color isn't much better! heh anyway, you mean like one big huge level? dunno how well that would work in an FPS heh but i do think levels should be more open

[ILR]

Originally posted by Vairtis

it's hard on the eyes with strike trough so Zelda Ocarina of time or Zelda Majoras mask

 

huh? I don't get it, why is it so bad to say Zelda Ocarina of Time and Zelda Majora's Mask?

[Vairtis]

ok it's not bad to say it I was trying to jazz it up with strike though and it didn't work so Zelda Ocarina Of Time or Zelda Majora's mask there .

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Vairtis

ok it's not bad to say it I was trying to jazz it up with strike though and it didn't work so Zelda Ocarina Of Time or Zelda Majora's mask there .

 

Welcome to the forums.

 

If you want to change something in one of your posts...just use the button attached to your post so you can change the content.

 

As for open environments - do you mean large outdoor areas, or just large areas? I've never played Zelda...

 

I agree that large outdoor environments are a good idea...as long as it's not just a flat plain. That would be intensely boring. Something approaching the scale of Jedi Knight's maps would be most welcome. For all it's faults, Unreal 2 had some nice external environments to run around in, with interesting rock formations - the 'defend Atlantis' level is quite nice. I also prefer areas with vegetation and large tracts of deep water, so that I can explore a place thoroughly - of course, that means rewarding the player for exploring further and deeper.

 

Indoor areas should follow the proper architectural traits of buildings...or caverns, IMO. I do like levels, especially rooms in buildings, that make sense. If you have people living in an environment, then those people need to eat (kitchen/dining area), sleep (bedroom or sleeping space), and see to their bodily functions (bathroom), as well as have living space, rec rooms, etc. And those rooms should be appropriately furnished (even simply). It obviously depends on the setting...but I like a bit of realism to aid the immersion.

[ILR]

The thing that always irritated me the about most maps in FPS is that they always looked way oversized. Walk yourself through the nearest doorframe. Now jump into JKII and take a gander at some of the doorframes in that game. Sure some doors are supposed to be big, but sweet momma some stuff in that game is just WAAAAAAAAAAAY too big. You get what I like to call "munchkin syndrome" when maps are make like this. Almost every game I've ever played has suffered from this on some level. The only game that is completely void of the munchkin syndrome is Shenmue (if anyone's played that).

 

The real problem is that when the devs test out these maps, they size up the levels on how long it takes to get from one end to the other. Since most games have the character move abnormally fast, its no wonder that envirnments are extrodinarily oversized. It all comes down to proportion ratios. If they make Kyle jog instead of sprint all the time (more believable, I'm sure) then they wont have to design levels made for giants (also nice addition to believability). Ya may be thinkin "Pffff! Who cares about believability? Its a game!" Well, it actually does matter in the long run. In a fiction novel based on reality, the author doesn't always have to make sense (Catcher in the Rye). But when its Sci Fi, the story has to be even MORE believable than normal in order for the reader (or gamer) to buy into what he or she is reading/seeing.

 

JK's biggest lacking is that Kyle sprints in eight directions Robotron style... [sarcasm]and I mean, who can't do that?[/s] Its other problem is the speed of the saber animations. Way too fast. You don't need the fastest animations in the world to get the fastest action. Even the duels in the newest SW movies look 'slow' compared to JKII.

 

*needs a drink of water*

[master_thomas]

Speaking of way too big, a few weeks ago, I had started a new map (I'm finishing it now) and it was to start in Luke's meditation room (where you first meet him in yavin_temple) and I was in a hurry (doing sort of rough make of the level. So I compiled and got errors to to size. This puzzled me because this was done in JK2. So I played the level and everything was huge! Luke's meditation platform (the wierd rectangular extrusion next to the window he sits on) was taller than Kyle. I could barely jump up the stairs. This was good because it gave me the first reason to use scale.

 

Right now, it is going to be a level to start my actual JK2 mapping career (I've never released a level) and I'm waiting for the bounce 8 to finish. I think of it a disturbingly long time at

"--- IlluminateRawLightmap--- 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8..." It hasn't noticeably changed in fifty minutes, wait, let me check, now its finally up to nine. I probably overdid it with extras because the file is 11mb right now.

 

Never played JK1, but I'm, planning on getting it soon:). By the descriptions, it sounds like one of the best games ever made. Gameplay like that could satisfy a person for years.

 

To ILR, I totally agree about the running and "munchkin syndrome". Some games make things enourmous with no reason or purpose. Even though this is a game, which as you said does need believability, this is expected from a Starwars title. Some things, like the Deathstar and in this game, the Doomgiver, may be incredibly huge, but these are commented on but, if you have a doorframe insanely bigger than anything that's going to use it, you've proven what a bleack, wasteful, galaxy they live in.

 

One question to stormhammer, how did you get the edit key in the message box?