Why did the game die/is the game dying?

[Solo4114]

Prime,

 

Actually, I was advocating that you change the sabre stance access system. You'd get access to all sabre stances from the start, but your ability to use them to break an enemy's defenses or to defend against an enemy would depend on how many points you assigned to the respective force powers.

 

So, for example, a level one offense would give you access to all three stances, and when applied against a level one defense it WOULD function similarly to what you can do now. The main difference would be the lethality of the sabres (IE: every swing, regardless of stance, would be a one or two hit kill). Aside from that, the general block/attack/parry structure would remain intact. However, if a level one attacker goes up against a level two defender, the level two defender will have a much easier time blocking or parrying the level one attacker's blows. Now, if the level two defender only had level one attack, when he went on offense, the two would be evenly matched again, but as far as defense goes, the higher level would generally reign, assuming he chose the right stance for the job.

 

Where things would really become different would be if you wanted access to level four or five abilities on either offense or defense. In order to do that, you'd only be able to take, say, up to level 2 in the counterpart force power. But at those higher levels, you could do stuff that wasn't accessible at the lower levels. You'd be given access to new moves, new abilities, new stances, or the ability to wield different types of weapons. HOWEVER, the sabres themselves would not change; they'd still be just as lethal and just as able to kill in one or two hits. What would change is your ability to effectively employ them to perform different tasks. I do agree, though, that if you spend points on something, you should get a benefit for it. With the system I'm proposing, though, you'd get that.

 

Now, as for whether this change alone would save the game, of course it wouldn't. It'd be a nice mod for dueling, but in the end, dueling and DM style play, I think, are just boring. I'd want to have objective focused gameplay included. You could leave the DM style of play in the game, but also include the class-based/objective focused gameplay as a different game mode. Actually BF1942 does this to a degree. It offers the ability to play simple TDM, CTF, or its Conquest mode (where the objective is to take and hold territory). I don't usually see any TDM servers out there, though, and I only occasionally see CTF servers. Now, granted, I'm not looking for the TDM servers, so there may be more of 'em than I see. But from what I can tell, the objective-focused style of play is the most popular one.

 

Al,

 

You seem to have missed my point in my most recent post, prior to this one. I'm not saying keep the game exactly the same. Far from it, in fact. The changes I'm advocating for are subtle, but meaningful. They wouldn't save the game on its own, because the game already lacks in immersive quality to it, but they would make it considerably more fun in my opinion. If you disagree with it, that's cool. I honestly don't care that much. But I do feel compelled to say the following.

 

You're really the kind of belligerent jackass that the internet seems to breed. I've simply been making suggestions here, basically ignoring you, and being generally polite when I took the time to answer you. In response, you've seen fit to basically make personal attacks for no apparent reason. If you disagree with what I say, fine. I have no problem with someone intelligently disagreeing. I enjoy a good debate. But when you start throwing insults around, well, even if it is the internet, that's just uncalled for. You're pissed that the game died. Fine. You blame folks who complained about the gameplay for it, and likely include me in that group. Fine. You want the game to be left alone, fine. Go play against the bots. You're pissed at the world about the fact that the game changed in a way you didn't like. I can sympathize with that. I'd be pissed too, if a game changed in a way that I thought killed it's community.

 

But enough already. Let it go, man. You seem entirely incapable of offering any kind of constructive opinion on the debate. You simply naysay and punctuate it with insults. Next time you have something to say in response, as I said before, try it with a little less vitriol and a little more rational thought. Like I said, I've got no problems disagreeing with folks, but there's no reason (other than your own impotent frustration at the fact that the game changed, I suppose) to be a jerk in the process.

 

Now then, in the immortal words of Joe Pesci, "I'm done with this guy." Anyone ELSE want to maybe ADD something to the debate?

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Now, as for whether this change alone would save the game, of course it wouldn't. It'd be a nice mod for dueling, but in the end, dueling and DM style play, I think, are just boring.

You're in the minority. 1on1 and DM styles of play are extremely popular in most other games, yadda yadda yadda etcetera. You get the idea. And if you don't, skip it.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

You seem to have missed my point in my most recent post, prior to this one. I'm not saying keep the game exactly the same. Far from it, in fact. The changes I'm advocating for are subtle, but meaningful.

I missed nothing, your "changes" aren't subtle, they're just shallow. They're not meaningful, they're basically the same conservative juggling of the existing dynamics that spawned five-gajillion minor mods that merely fragmented the JO community. I'm sure you think your ideas are just dandy, but hey, so did the makers of all those farcically insipid excuses for mods. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, everyone and their uncle has their little ideas about how to "MAEK TEH GAEM BETTARRR!!!!11"

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

You're really the kind of belligerent jackass that the internet seems to breed. I've simply been making suggestions here, basically ignoring you, and being generally polite when I took the time to answer you. In response, you've seen fit to basically make personal attacks for no apparent reason. If you disagree with what I say, fine. I have no problem with someone intelligently disagreeing. I enjoy a good debate.

Ah, so you want me to stop disagreeing with you, but since you can't actually SAY that without sounding even more pompous and unpleasant, you've added this little caveat about "intelligently disagreeing", so that you can accuse me of unintelligently disagreeing with you? Pfft. That's thin.

 

You've been making suggestions, yes. I've been pointing out the many, many gaping flaws in your grand design. If you don't like that, you "go play against the bots" to use your words. Furthermore, by calling me a "belligerent jackass" you not only stoop to petty personal slurs, but imply that I want an argument too. There is no argument. There's just you making dubious statements about how great the mod you're never going to make would be, and how the developer of the next JK game should listen to YOOO, and me? Well, I'm sitting here poking holes in an already flimsy construct that hath been arrayed before mine eyes. I wouldn't call that an argument.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

But enough already. Let it go, man. You seem entirely incapable of offering any kind of constructive opinion on the debate.

Well, other than pointing out that your ideas really aren't very good, there's not a lot to say. As I told you before Solo, there have been many threads about the next game, how to improve on it, yadda yadda yadda, and I've contributed to many of them, weeks and months ago. I don't need to repeat myself here, nor would I glorify this blatant rehash of an old discussion with additional fodder.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Next time you have something to say in response, as I said before, try it with a little less vitriol and a little more rational thought. Like I said, I've got no problems disagreeing with folks, but there's no reason (other than your own impotent frustration at the fact that the game changed, I suppose) to be a jerk in the process.

You'd have made a good physician in the 1950s. They all thought that anyone who pointed out their errors was irrational too. LOBOTOMY!!!!11 And furthermore, your use of the word "folks" disturbs me.

 

As I said before, and I'm in danger of growing a string-pull out of my back I've repeated these simple ideas for you so much, I've seen all this before. This is old, old news. I saw it in the days of DF2. I've seen it over the past year with JO. I'll probably see it again in six years' time with JKIII. Instead of sitting here mashing your gums in a big wodge of futile and orgiastic self-aggrandisement, familiarise yourself with the techniques that are really necessary for supporting a game-community: Dedication, practice and understanding. Wandering around yapping about how to "improve" something you don't understand anyway is just about the most pointless occupation in the known universe.

 

No, actually, wandering around yapping about how to "improve" something that never had a chance to prove whether it was successful or not, that you don't understand anyway, tops it.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Now then, in the immortal words of Joe Pesci, "I'm done with this guy."

You've said this sort of thing several times now, and nothing's happened... Are you sure you're waving your magic wand the right way?

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

Anyone ELSE want to maybe ADD something to the debate?

Oooh ooh! I've got an idea, why don't you go and read all those old threads I told you about, and PRETEND that they're replies to your thread. That should keep you busy for the next decade.

 

***

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

I do agree, though, that if you spend points on something, you should get a benefit for it. With the system I'm proposing, though, you'd get that.

 

On a side-note, I love the way they always get up on the podium about these things too:

 

The scene: Daylight outside a building that looks as if it's been made entirely of glass. A press-conference is occuring on the attractively marbled fascia of the steps leading to the main entrance.

 

ModCo CEO: "The synergized network of thought-fact modifications that we at ModCo are proposing here today will endemically unleashify the full and ultimate potentia of all the facets of the Jedi Knight experiencialism."

 

Journalist: "Question; What are you going to do in layman's terms?"

 

ModCo CEO: "Take away gunners' sabres and force powers and then make the sabre a one-hit kill weapon."

 

Journalist: "Umm... won't that make a lot of gunners unhappy?"

 

ModCo CEO: "REEL JEDI DONT USE GUNZ U LAMOR!11!!!"

 

[ILR]

*gets really broad and philosophical*

 

I'm seeing alot of people saying that gaming with a purpose is becoming more entertaining than pointless DM's. I think that's a sign that the gaming community as a whole is starting to become more mature. If this keeps up... fiften... twenty years down the road video games may be held in similar regards as movies, books, and maybe (juuuuuuuuust maybe) the fine arts.

 

(cept console games... DOA Xtreme Volleyball anyone? They will be children forever).

[Naphtali]

Spider your right this has been happening for a while now, I mean these threads,

 

I stand true one thing though, JO feel's like other Raven games, and that the sabaer system in SP needs better collision especially for saber locks, you can swing at one angle but the saber lock is identical, to much difference between stances, not enough difference in terms of strikes, the AI for all lightsabeer opponent's are really predictable and with no innovation

[ILR]

Originally posted by Naphtali

Spider your right this has been happening for a while now, I mean these threads,

 

I stand true one thing though, JO feel's like other Raven games, and that the sabaer system in SP needs better collision especially for saber locks, you can swing at one angle but the saber lock is identical, to much difference between stances, not enough difference in terms of strikes, the AI for all lightsabeer opponent's are really predictable and with no innovation

 

Heh.. on the contrary.. I found the AI for the saber opponents so random that it was frusterating. Also, when the AI executes a move, he'll execute the move no matter what. My favorite example is the blue uppercut attack... so far the only way to dodge that is to be running away. Best part is that the AI will just slap that puppy in whenever the hell he feels like it. You could be slashing, he could be defending... he could be slashing and you defending.. you both could be slashing... and suddenly the video will go slow mow as I watch Kyle keel over from the ending frames of the uppercut animation.

 

Oh and Dassan at the end is just rich. If I we're a reviewer, I would honestly publish that I inteaded to give the game a great score, but when I fought Dassan at the end I changed the score to 1.3 out of ten. You cannot fight him directly nor fight him indirectly. He has "magic instant slash" compounded infanitly. When facing him it all looks the same- straight combat until I die suddenly from the ending frames of god knows what slash. And I love how like when you get a little too far away from him he goes force crazy... lightning and chocking up the ass. And that level 3 push doesn't do jack against it, hope you pacted Bacta containers. The only easy way to beat this MF'er is to be cheap as hell. I've had more engaging duels with Reborn fodder than with him. And to put him at the end of the game, talk about a sour note to end on...

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I thought i'd just say something about class-based objective multiplayer. I've seen it said (not sure if its this thread) that pure deathmatch games are so common that objective multiplayer is the way forwards.

 

This of course is a load of complete crap, the only deathmatch game to be released recently was ut2k3 (which sucks). Almost EVERY recent multiplayer game has been based on team objectives, the majority being based on world war 2 or something equally done-to-death.

 

I got JK2 wanting the kind of vanilla deathmatch with a difference, I wanted Quake 3 but with a little more in the way of vertical gameplay, I wanted UT but faster and more elegant. Now in all honesty, I think a class-based team-objective Star Wars game would be great fun, but i also want some "senseless" deathmatch too, JK2 was meant to keep me entertained until Quake 4 (assuming Raven doesn't screw this up too), instead it turned me into a bitter-twisted old fool.

 

So here's my thought: Someone go ahead and make JK3, give it a singleplayer experience worthy of the series, and give it vanilla JK-style multiplayer. Do it REALLY well, just cater for these two factors. Then ADDITIONALLY (notice the world ADDITIONALLY, as in NOT REPLACING) make a class-based objective based Star Wars game using whatever engine is appropriate with both a singleplayer and multieplayer element. Let people be Jedi if they want to too, but make sure its done properly.

 

Voila, in just 2 games, you have catered to the Star Wars paradigms.

 

If this is done in 2 games instead of one, you immediately get rid of any major arguments about "what the game was supposed to be", and people can get on with actually playing and having fun.

[shock ~ unnamed]

As long as there are no more WW2 Nazi guys or dudes in ski-masks w/ sniper rifles I'm all for another class based game.

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by ILR

*gets really broad and philosophical*

 

I'm seeing alot of people saying that gaming with a purpose is becoming more entertaining than pointless DM's. I think that's a sign that the gaming community as a whole is starting to become more mature. If this keeps up... fiften... twenty years down the road video games may be held in similar regards as movies, books, and maybe (juuuuuuuuust maybe) the fine arts.

 

(cept console games... DOA Xtreme Volleyball anyone? They will be children forever).

 

ILR,

 

You're right that a portion of the gaming community is becoming more mature (or at least getting older). Will the younger players ever be weeded out? Unlikely. There will always be a market for scantily clad, buxom chicks jumping around to, shall we say, emphasize the fact that they ARE buxom (you know what I'm talking about).

 

But, I think what you'll see is that, as with movies, you'll have games that cater to one audience, and games that cater to another. And the best games will be able to draw in both groups. Towards that end...

 

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQSo here's my thought: Someone go ahead and make JK3, give it a singleplayer experience worthy of the series, and give it vanilla JK-style multiplayer. Do it REALLY well, just cater for these two factors. Then ADDITIONALLY (notice the world ADDITIONALLY, as in NOT REPLACING) make a class-based objective based Star Wars game using whatever engine is appropriate with both a singleplayer and multieplayer element. Let people be Jedi if they want to too, but make sure its done properly.

 

See, I don't think you even need to make two games. Just two game modes. And I don't think that having two general options for game modes would split the community terribly. Rather, it'd be a smart marketing move because you appeal to two different camps of players. On the one hand, you appeal to folks who want he vanilla, pick-up-any-gun, kill-'em-all DM style gaming experience. And on the other hand, you can simply have another game mode where you have access to limited weapons and abilities, but you play as a team and attempt to complete objectives. There were DM mods that came out for RTCW, because people wanted to play DM style. There were class-based mods for all of the Quake games (TF, WF, etc.), usually revolving around CTF modes, because people wanted to have classes and objectives to complete as a team. To my recollection, UT introduced the first real objective style game (the Assault mode), and RTCW was the first to create a game with classes focused on objectives.

 

Now, DeTRiTiC, you're right. The WWII theme is getting kind of tired. It's fun, of course, but I for one wouldn't mind seeing something new. A Star Wars class-based game would be a blast, but you could also do it with other settings. When you think about it, though, the gaming industry is a LOT like the movie industry. They put out repeats of the last thing that did well. If a WWII game sells well, you can bet you'll see a bunch of crappy knock-offs come out. It'd be nice to see that particular style of gameplay shaken up a bit. Regardless, I still think you can offer different game modes in one box and cater to the community. Oh, and yes, UT2k3 sucked. I played the demo and almost fell off my chair yawning too hard.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by ILR:

 

Oh and Dassan at the end is just rich. If I we're a reviewer, I would honestly publish that I inteaded to give the game a great score, but when I fought Dassan at the end I changed the score to 1.3 out of ten. You cannot fight him directly nor fight him indirectly.

Well, this might depend on what computer specs you have, but I didn't have a problem with Desann, and I played initially on the highest level of skill. It takes a few minutes observation, but he uses the same lunges quite a lot, and if one catches the windup one can whack him in the head while he's doing them. In the midrange, his lightning is a problem, but only if you haven't jumped into the special beam that protects you from Dark Side damage. Desann likes to try to jump into that too. Besides, there's always the pillars+sabre throw method of dispatching him, which I never could bring myself to use. Nor the speed + heavy stance method. Well, maybe once.

 

Shock and Det: Well sure. Let them play their class-based game somewhere over there. JK is sacred as a genre though.

 

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed:

 

As long as there are no more WW2 Nazi guys or dudes in ski-masks w/ sniper rifles I'm all for another class based game.

 

Ever noticed that if you slap a Germanic helmet on someone it makes them a villain and hence okay to kill them? Stormtrooper helmets have Germanic overtones. Obviously the nazis in Indy had plenty of such headgear. Interesting... Maybe ski-masks are the new Germanic helmets?

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

See, I don't think you even need to make two games. Just two game modes. And I don't think that having two general options for game modes would split the community terribly.

It should be obvious even to you that another game mode would create at least one more division in the community. Then, what about force configuration? You'd have NF class-based players and FF class-based players, sabres only class-based players, guns class-based players etcetera etcetera ad infinitum. It's a terrible idea, live with that, and go back to the drawing board.

[ILR]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Well, this might depend on what computer specs you have, but I didn't have a problem with Desann, and I played initially on the highest level of skill. It takes a few minutes observation, but he uses the same lunges quite a lot, and if one catches the windup one can whack him in the head while he's doing them. In the midrange, his lightning is a problem, but only if you haven't jumped into the special beam that protects you from Dark Side damage. Desann likes to try to jump into that too. Besides, there's always the pillars+sabre throw method of dispatching him, which I never could bring myself to use. Nor the speed + heavy stance method. Well, maybe once.

 

Its not a technical issue, at least I don't think. I've played Single Player on Jedi Master mode countless times from start to finish, and I've never caught on to any pattern with the dark Jedi. It never even occured to me that there WAS a pattern in the first place... I didn't focus on that. The only kind of lightsaber duels I know are the ones in the movie... where they always blocked and parried their way through their opponent's defense. Considering that the saber isn't exactly the heaviest mofo to whip around, it made sense to try and knock their saber down before going for the kill. I was so confused when playing JKII because sabers are treated like swords with mass (It will only have power when it is in motion... and the sword slashes cannot be stopped midswing to correct course due to its momentum). So the key to winning is duppin your enemy to slash where he thought you were going to be, and then slash while his blade is turned away. The Star Wars freak has a morol code about lightsaber duels... be true to the duels, no matter what!

[ILR]

About the several game modes in one thing..

 

I only played Duels, never touched the CTF or DM stuff *shrugs*. And I know quite a few who are the opposite. This is the biggest split in a gaming community I have ever experienced. 1.04 came out I was still in the duel servers, so it was like a godsend to me. However I hear people bitch and bitch about **** I've never concerned myself with! I felt very alienated when I tried to defense 1.04... With this game ya can't avoid one or two splits in the community, but ya should avoid the obvious extra ones..

 

Why worry about NF lovers verses Force lovers? Why not make Force not so ****ing retarded so that everyone can enjoy it and people will see the "disable force" button and simply wonder why it was even there....

 

Why is lightning a Jedi Ability? We saw the Emp do it once. Dooku did it to noobish Anikin, but Ben dispatched it easily. If you have to have your god damn lightning ability in a JEDI KNIGHT game, make it so Jedi's with level 3 defense can do what Ben did in ep2.

 

And where the **** did Absorb come from? And drain? WTF is that ****? Why is it in a Star Wars game? Shouldn't that be in a Bulder's Gate sequal or something? Force Healing is really stretching it too...

 

And saber throw! GOD!!!!!!!! Vader ****in tosses his saber up at the catwalk to get Luke down ONCE... ****ING ONCE. He may not have even guided it with the force.. he may have just tossed it a good one to get Luke down. The result: JKII Saber throw. Put that mouse 2 button to better use and GIVE US A DEFENSE COMMAND!!!

 

And what is the deal with Force choke?! Again.. we see vader choke NORMAL PEOPLE with the force... yet you catch a Jedi off gaurd and you choke him, lift him up, swirl him around in circles so he can't push you away, and all this while doing tons of lovely damage. IF Goerge Lucas was dead he would be spinning in his grave. Since he's not he's prolly just trying to remember why Lucas Arts was started in the first place.

 

THATS why there's a descrepency between NF and FF

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by ILR:

 

I've played Single Player on Jedi Master mode countless times from start to finish, and I've never caught on to any pattern with the dark Jedi. It never even occured to me that there WAS a pattern in the first place... I didn't focus on that.

 

Well, dere you go. There's always a pattern with opponents. Human, AI, vegetable, mineral, there's always a pattern. The key to winning is to understand that pattern.

 

Originally posted by ILR:

 

Why worry about NF lovers verses Force lovers? Why not make Force not so ****ing retarded so that everyone can enjoy it and people will see the "disable force" button and simply wonder why it was even there....

 

Well besides the massive amount of swearing and exclamation marks in your post, you have an interesting point. Personally though, I don't think the force is "****ing retarded"; I think people who play NF FFA or CTF might be a little silly though. And frankly comparing the films to the game is a waste of time. Making a game exactly like the films would probably only be interesting to the fanboys or die-hard RPGers.

 

Originally posted by ILR:

 

IF Goerge Lucas was dead he would be spinning in his grave.

Lucas doesn't care about keeping the Star Wars movies sane, let alone cool, judging by the prequels. Don't think he'd care too much whether a game was exactly the way the OT was.

[Solo4114]

For duels, 1.04 helped somewhat. Though the blocking could've been more logically based and not so random. As far as why bother including the various force powers you mentioned, they've been in the game for a while so that alone would piss people off if they were removed. Plus, people see them in the movies, hear about a game coming out where you can play as a jedi or a dark jedi, and they want to emulate whatever they see on the screen. I don't have a problem including the various force powers, but I think that, after a while, they did end up becoming kind of useless. I know that when I dueled, I ALWAYS set Absorb to level three, if only because it was the only way to counter darkside force powers. People who set lightning to 3 or grip to 3 were able to beat the hell out of you if you didn't assign force powers to absorb.

 

All in all, I thought that the force powers were reasonably implemented, though when everyone had things set to level 3, it got so that the powers were basically useless. You really DID have to settle things with a sabre if you had absorb at 3 and the other guy had lightning at 3. Again, though, that only highlighted the flaws in sabre combat. You're right that the sabres were treated as having mass when they should be able to move at roughly the same speed all the time. That goes to my point about making all swings equally lethal, but making the type of swing and speed or force of your blow (light, medium, or heavy) deal more with battering through defenses, or keeping your defenses up.

[Guest Krayt Tion]

Wow, there have just about been some FLPs in this thread.

 

Everyone has their own subjective standards by which they've judged the game and decided whether to continue playing or participating in its community. Whether I agree with them or not, that's fine by me.

 

I find it is both fair and appropriate to compare the quality of my JO experience to that of other game experiences when determining my level of satisfaction. For a game in a series, the preceding games of that series serve as an additional benchmark is this regard.

 

1) Did I enjoy JO more than most games I've played?

 

Yes. This means the game got its fair share of play time, plus community time, the duration of which was primarily determined by the following:

 

2) Did I enjoy JO as much as or more than Dark Forces I and II?

 

Definitely Not.

 

Single player was plagued by stunted level progression, poorly implemented and executed puzzles, and an anti-climactic ending, all of which registered noticably with me.

 

For multiplayer, Raven heavily tweaked kinds of experiences similar to those I've already had via Jedi Knight. I was ready for something fresh from the core, not old with new trimmings. They failed to innovate enough to satisfy this tired JKer beyond a relatively short period.

 

What would have made me buy the farm?

 

Class-based objective multiplayer (good acronym needed) is my cup of tea, my soup du jour, the apple of my eye as far as what can still be considered the FPS genre is concerned. This mode of play is superior to others only because that is it what I enjoy the most when playing with guns in the first person.

 

I can't see why this would be a problem to someone else, save that numerous invested parties (used to be part of one) with different preferences were all hoping the game catered to them. A Star Wars FPS is, after all, a huge pooling of official resources likely to produce something only once every few years. It's a valuable commodity if you're into that sort of thing.

 

So that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by Solo4114

For duels, 1.04 helped somewhat. Though the blocking could've been more logically based and not so random. As far as why bother including the various force powers you mentioned, they've been in the game for a while so that alone would piss people off if they were removed. Plus, people see them in the movies, hear about a game coming out where you can play as a jedi or a dark jedi, and they want to emulate whatever they see on the screen. I don't have a problem including the various force powers, but I think that, after a while, they did end up becoming kind of useless. I know that when I dueled, I ALWAYS set Absorb to level three, if only because it was the only way to counter darkside force powers. People who set lightning to 3 or grip to 3 were able to beat the hell out of you if you didn't assign force powers to absorb.

 

All in all, I thought that the force powers were reasonably implemented, though when everyone had things set to level 3, it got so that the powers were basically useless. You really DID have to settle things with a sabre if you had absorb at 3 and the other guy had lightning at 3. Again, though, that only highlighted the flaws in sabre combat. You're right that the sabres were treated as having mass when they should be able to move at roughly the same speed all the time. That goes to my point about making all swings equally lethal, but making the type of swing and speed or force of your blow (light, medium, or heavy) deal more with battering through defenses, or keeping your defenses up.

 

 

I'm not sure where you did most of your 1.04 Force dueling but statement could not be more off if you tried man.

 

1.04 Force dueling is ALL about Force based combat and maybe 1% saber swings.

 

99% of the top ranked FF duelers throughout all of 1.04 didn't even use sabers in FF dueling other than as a follow up swing after a kick knockdown.

 

And there has never been an "elite" light side FF dueler throughout all of 1.04 on any ladder or league.

 

Light side at any level is completely and utterly worthless in 1.04 dueling.

 

I zap you with a short blast of lightning.

You reflexively flip on absorb.

I simply pull+throw the hell out of you (absorb makes doing that very easy).

 

You try a heal you waste 1/2 of your pool for a measly 25 hp.

 

All I have to do is drain whore you and kick you to death and the match is over.

 

 

In 1.04 FF dueling this is how it goes in terms of what is best:

 

Drain (it is simply too damn easy to reverse 80 hp of damage by whoring it on a person with poor evasive skills)

 

Kick (level 2 jump)

 

Pull

 

Saber throw/Grip

 

I put the last two on about the same level because they are more of a "part" of devastating combos rather than the actual attack itself.

 

A properly done grip+kick can take a 100hp person down to 0 in one shot.

 

Two back to back throw+pull+kick combos will finish off a 100 hp person as well if done properly.

[Spider AL]

shock ~ unnamed: Exactly, the sides of the Force aren't balanced in any of the game modes as far as I'm aware. The closest they come to being balanced is in FF guns CTF, but even then... Now, MotS was good, as "sides" had no meaning in its Force selection. All powers were available to all... Nifty.

 

I really don't know where Solo's getting his ideas though. Certainly not from Jedi Outcast... Maybe he's confused and is playing Bubble Bobble instead.

 

Originally posted by Krayt Tion:

 

I can't see why this would be a problem to someone else,

Because, Krayt old bean, the Dark Forces series has always been made up of pure FPShooters. Would one go to the Quake community and say "I think the next game should be a flight sim"? Class-based-objective games are completely different to a vanilla FPS. There's both a tradition to uphold and a dedicated and long-standing community to honour.

 

The only reason so many people want this game to be something different next time is because it's a Star Wars game and all Star Wars fans feel that they have a right to demand whatever they want from it. (Note: I'm not lumping you in with them, merely pointing out that there's a lot of them.) But I don't think Star Wars fans should count, frankly. The game's the important thing, not the genre/franchise on which it's based. Now, sure, you like class-based games at the moment, and DM probably seems old to you. But how will you feel about objective-based games in four years time? Who knows. Meanwhile, the tradition of the Dark Forces series should be observed, because it's always been truly classic.

 

Most games are punched out of sheets of plastic these days. Fast food games. Who wants another McCounterstrike or another McUnreal Tournament? The unique flavour of Dark Forces must be preserved.

[Solo4114]

Shock,

 

It's not so much WHERE I did my dueling as much as it is WHEN I did my dueling. For the most part, I didn't play competitively, so I probably wasn't going up against people who were all that good. I also didn't play for very long after 1.04 came out. I'd stopped playing when 1.03 came out, due to the inability to avoid people spamming the backstab, and only came back briefly when 1.04 was first out. I played some duels and some FFA, and maybe one or two CTF games. I think I lasted MAYBE a month with 1.04 before I quit the game altogether and uninstalled it. I'd imagine that a lot of the techniques you're talking about came into play on competitive or ladder servers and were being used a while after I'd quit.

 

If what you're saying is true, though, then that REALLY sucks. I mean, I'm all for using force powers in a duel, but what you're describing is ridiculous. Call me crazy, but I think duels should be mostly about the sabre, and only have force come in occasionally. Even so, while duels are cool, they still boil down to DM style play, which for me, even with a well balanced force system, and even with well executed sabre combat, would grow tiresome. That was actually the reason I quit 1.04. It wasn't so much flaws in the patch (though it DID take forever to kill people with sabres), as much as it was that the style of play just really bored me.

 

I'm with Krayt here. I'd much rather play CBOM (how's that for an acronym? ) than screw around with DM. I know folks want to play DM, though, so more power to 'em. That's why I'd say include your basic DM mode in any sequel. There's a contingent that really wants to play it, so fine, let 'em play it. Me, I'd rather play CBOM. And yea, Krayt, I too was hoping for something new and fresh from JO. The single player was fun overall, though the end DID leave something to be desired (You shake your head at Desann and that's it???). I did like the fact that you could have AI buddies tagging along, like Luke in that one level. I get tired of the "You against the universe" style of play, and like to play as a team. That's probably why I'm drawn towards CBOM style games. Anyway, I'd hope for the next game that, while they keep some aspects of the underlying series intact, they try to freshen things up a bit. The same old formula is getting boring.

 

As for the same old stogy style of play being some sort of sacred cow, I say innovate a little. There's no reason why you can't have a nice change of pace in the series AND still keep the old style of play, though some seem to believe that any change will instantly spell the death of the game. I think sticking to the same old worn-out style of play, without ever bothering to innovate will lead to the stagnation of the game, and while a small, fervently loyal, intensely conservative (in terms of changes to gameplay, mind you, not politically) group may support it, the majority of people out there will grow tired of it quickly, and will drop it as soon as the next shiny game comes out.

 

If the next game has nothing but DM styles and CTF, I know I won't buy it, even though I'm a Star Wars fan. It's not because the game is Star Wars that I'd want CBOM. It's because DM style of play bores the crap out of me and the DF series has NEVER had good CTF gameplay. I never bought Q3 or Counterstrike because they basically boiled down to DM, which bores me. I got into UT, but only ever played CTF because the other modes (aside from Assault, I suppose) bored me. I love the Aliens and Predator movies, but I never bought AVP2 because the first game just boiled down to variations on DM style play, and I figured the second one would too. The underlying license isn't the issue, it's the gameplay found within that will convince me to spend my money.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

I know folks want to play DM, though, so more power to 'em. That's why I'd say include your basic DM mode in any sequel. There's a contingent that really wants to play it, so fine, let 'em play it.

Once again your magnanimousness is choking. Your "generous suggestion" would merely fragment the community further than it already is, damaging it. I presume you want to do that, otherwise you'd be lobbying for a separate game by now.

 

/me shudders

 

Ugh-h-h-h. Folks.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

The same old formula is getting boring.

Gosh, and there was little old me thinking that it was interesting enough to keep Dark Forces 2 alive for at least five years without dev support.

 

Originally posted by Solo4114:

 

I think sticking to the same old worn-out style of play, without ever bothering to innovate will lead to the stagnation of the game, and while a small, fervently loyal, intensely conservative (in terms of changes to gameplay, mind you, not politically) group may support it, the majority of people out there will grow tired of it quickly, and will drop it as soon as the next shiny game comes out.

The "majority of people" or at least a vocal majority managed to ruin JO. So who cares what they think, feel or do. A small "fervently loyal" following kept JK alive for years and preserved the competitive game with tournaments and prizes. It preserved the game for those that truly enjoyed it. That's what's important, not the "fun" of the fickle fanboy masses.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Solo4114

All in all, I thought that the force powers were reasonably implemented, though when everyone had things set to level 3, it got so that the powers were basically useless. You really DID have to settle things with a sabre if you had absorb at 3 and the other guy had lightning at 3.

"Obviously, this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the force. Only with the our skills with a lightsaber." -Dooku

 

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

I zap you with a short blast of lightning. You reflexively flip on absorb. I simply pull+throw the hell out of you (absorb makes doing that very easy).

I understand that many people play purely for competative reasons, and their only goal is to win. But do people have any fun doing the above? I mean, it just seems so boring to me. If that is what you feel the game comes down to, is it really worth playing? Sure, you get some wins, but you just spent a few hours of your life pressing two keys on a keyboard repeatedly. Ahh, good times! Does anyone besides me play this game just for fun? Since I fulfill my competative cravings with basketball, I just play this game for the Star Wars related aspects. To each his own, I guess.

 

Originally posted by Spider Al

The only reason so many people want this game to be something different next time is because it's a Star Wars game and all Star Wars fans feel that they have a right to demand whatever they want from it. But I don't think Star Wars fans should count, frankly. The game's the important thing, not the genre/franchise on which it's based.

I don't think that is entirely fair. I agree completely that SW fans, or anyone for that matter, don't have the right to demand whatever they want. But I don't think that the fans don't count at all. I mean, like it or not, this is a Star Wars game, so at least it should be reasonably faithful to that genre. Financially speaking, SW fans (which I am one), are a good portion of the customers for this game, and for Raven/Lucasarts to completely disregard them would be foolish. That being said, I agree with you that the gameplay should take priority, since really that is where the fun and longevity will be derived. Also, I agree that since this game is a Dark Forces game, it needs to follow the standards set by that series (refering to the whole jedi with guns debate). The funny thing is, I feel that this game and the Dark Forces series in general is very close to the standards set in the movies. I have no problems with Jedi and guns, and so on. I feel Raven has made a game that is very respectful to the Star Wars universe. I also feel that have made a game that is fun to play. Just my take. Al, hopefully you will not group me in with all the other Star Wars "fanboys".

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Prime:

 

I understand that many people play purely for competative reasons, and their only goal is to win. But do people have any fun doing the above? I mean, it just seems so boring to me. If that is what you feel the game comes down to, is it really worth playing? Sure, you get some wins, but you just spent a few hours of your life pressing two keys on a keyboard repeatedly. Ahh, good times! Does anyone besides me play this game just for fun?

This is an important question, and one worthy of a seriously thought out answer:

 

If one first decides to pursue victory, it is because one enjoys winning. Over the course of one's training, winning becomes a different type of fun, a fun that's worth the time and effort one puts into the game. It's a buzz when you win a tournament, or overcome a difficult opponent. It's not about what powers or guns you use, as every game at some stage turns into a one-gun match. (railgun in Quake, Flechette in JO, specific force powers etc) It's about who uses them the best. And after a while, you start to use the other guns and powers to surprise your skilled opponent. You jump out of the shadows and whack him with your sabre. You shoot him from a mile away with your tenloss. You knock him from a ledge with your DEMP. And those are the kills you come to cherish the most.

 

So you could say, if you practice enough, you go THROUGH the stages of using one weapon or few weapons, and come out on the other side. You go through the period where winning is your only fun, and finally come out on the other side to appreciate the whole game in a way you never could have done before.

 

It's rewarding. It's also the same with every game, computerised or not, in my experience.

 

Originally posted by Prime:

 

I don't think that is entirely fair. I agree completely that SW fans, or anyone for that matter, don't have the right to demand whatever they want. But I don't think that the fans don't count at all. I mean, like it or not, this is a Star Wars game, so at least it should be reasonably faithful to that genre.

I understand where you're coming from, and I used to say the same thing. But after 1.03, no longer. I used to look on obsessed Star Wars fanboys as cute and helpless, until I saw what destruction their ignorance wrought. Now I have no time for them.

 

Btw, I AM a Star Wars fan. But I can see the game for its own merits, separate from the franchise and its foibles. If something in the game works well but is different from the films, I love it. I have no problem with it. It's only those fanboys that cannot make that distinction and have no desire to learn to, that I despise.

 

Originally posted by Prime:

 

Just my take. Al, hopefully you will not group me in with all the other Star Wars "fanboys".

Of course not. Though many people have different takes on what defines a fanboy, my criteria are crystal clear, as espoused in the "JO bashing" thread. You don't quite fit them so far.

[Zodiac]

Originally posted by ILR

And saber throw! GOD!!!!!!!! Vader ****in tosses his saber up at the catwalk to get Luke down ONCE... ****ING ONCE. He may not have even guided it with the force.. he may have just tossed it a good one to get Luke down. The result: JKII Saber throw. Put that mouse 2 button to better use and GIVE US A DEFENSE COMMAND!!!

 

In Kathy Tyers' "The Truce at Bakura", Luke uses saber throw to get rid of several opponents in a room. Very handy if you ask me. If I'd have The Force, I'd be throwing my saber all the time.

 

But I agree with you on one thing: I didn't really like saber throw in JKO either.

[Mr. Mofo]

I don't what the problem is with saber throw. I mean, it can't hurt you if you keep your saber in a non-attacking stance, or you're not using a force power. So what, you want to be able to attack and not take any damage in the process? I find it a usefull tool, I like to throw the ol saber at people who foolishly wave their saber around while chasing me. Anymore, my biggest/only problem with the game is the absorb/flechette gun combo. If you could still take their gun it would be fine, methinks. Might make it unbalance something else though. Thoughts?

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I generally take the view that a sequel (in gaming) should be an evolved and improved version of the original. To make a sequel for JK2 into a CBOM game wouldn't be evolution, it would be starting from scratch. I'm all for a Star Wars Team/Squad Objective game, it would make for some fun singleplayer too, but the Dark Forces series should keep to its roots.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by Prime

I understand that many people play purely for competative reasons, and their only goal is to win. But do people have any fun doing the above? I mean, it just seems so boring to me. If that is what you feel the game comes down to, is it really worth playing? Sure, you get some wins, but you just spent a few hours of your life pressing two keys on a keyboard repeatedly. Ahh, good times! Does anyone besides me play this game just for fun? Since I fulfill my competative cravings with basketball, I just play this game for the Star Wars related aspects. To each his own, I guess.

 

Of course.

I have a total blast playing JK2 Instagib CTF.

Am I good at it?

No not really but I still have fun.

 

 

I stuck with FF dueling over FFA/mass player mods because of the thought and strategy that had to go into taking out a single aware and alert opponent.

 

There would be no mass crowd kills or sloppy random DFA kills.

 

As I started learning the finer points of dueling I really did have a great time watching my skill level develop and progress.

 

The challenge is what was fun for me.

 

Why do people play puzzle games like Tetris?

There is no story so how could they be any fun?

 

The reason is because it is fun to face a challenge and overcome it.

 

It’s not about “owning people” it’s simply about overcoming an obstacle or challenge.

At first the challenge was learning the game and combos, now it is beating other skilled players.

 

I’m not saying it’s not fun to just screw around in maps, I do it.

But competition has always been and will always be present in online gaming so it’s kind of hard to avoid.

[Prime]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

As I started learning the finer points of dueling I really did have a great time watching my skill level develop and progress.

 

The challenge is what was fun for me.

 

Why do people play puzzle games like Tetris?

There is no story so how could they be any fun?

 

The reason is because it is fun to face a challenge and overcome it.

 

It?s not about ?owning people? it?s simply about overcoming an obstacle or challenge.

At first the challenge was learning the game and combos, now it is beating other skilled players.

 

I?m not saying it?s not fun to just screw around in maps, I do it.

But competition has always been and will always be present in online gaming so it?s kind of hard to avoid.

 

I completely understand. It is one of the things that made JO so fun for me. This is the first game that I played online with people I didn't know. I got this game 100% for the SP game, and never gave much thought to the MP aspects. I just gave it a try for the hell of it. I figured that I would get destroyed. But I guess since the game was brand new to everyone at that point, I did okay. That sort of got me thinking that I could improve. Like you describe, this was very fun and challenging. I normally play FFA and Duels, and I can usually end up at the top end of the scores list. Like you say, getting better and seeing improvement was a source of great enjoyment.

 

I understand the competative enjoyment that people get from this game. Hell, I enjoy beating someone, and I do try and win when I play. But when I play I usually do so in a manner I feel the game was intended, i.e. using different moves and countermoves. The point I was trying to make was if the game to someone comes down to just pull/throwing all the time, is winning that way really fun to them? I guess for me it would take away some of the enjoyment of the win. I enjoy a win much more when I defended one attack in a good way and had a well placed counter attack, and so on. If I just pull/threw for the umpteenth time and won because once again there was nothing the opponent could do, that just doesn't seem appealing. But everyone is different.

 

Originally posted by Spider Al

So you could say, if you practice enough, you go THROUGH the stages of using one weapon or few weapons, and come out on the other side. You go through the period where winning is your only fun, and finally come out on the other side to appreciate the whole game in a way you never could have done before.

 

Very interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. Meditate on this, I will.

 

Originally posted by Spider Al

Btw, I AM a Star Wars fan. But I can see the game for its own merits, separate from the franchise and its foibles. If something in the game works well but is different from the films, I love it. I have no problem with it. It's only those fanboys that cannot make that distinction and have no desire to learn to, that I despise.

 

I agree. I bought this game because it was Star Wars. I am still playing this game a year later because it is a great game. I would enjoy this game if it wasn't Star Wars. I also have no problems with were it seperates from the genre, firstly because I think it still captures the feel and important elements of Star Wars, and secondly because I feel the changes lead to a better game.