question about christianity

[ShockV1.89]

the only difference is the Christians here don't find a need to insult you by saying it.

 

Stick around....

[Vagabond]

To begin with, BrodieCadden I wasn't even talking with you, and am not interested in having a discussion with someone who isn't contributing, and is only arguing for the sake of arguing. I will address a few of your inaccurate assumptions before closing this line of discussion with you.

 

Originally posted by BrodieCadden

...There are very few people who actually believe what their parents believe in...

 

Do you seriously believe that, or have you merely deluded yourself into believing that? Hmmm, then I wonder why most Hindus have Hindu parents, and most Jews have Jewish parents, and most Muslims have Muslim parents, and most Christians have Christian parents, etc, etc, etc?

 

Any credibility that I might have afforded you completely evaporated for me when you started off with blatantly absurd statement.

 

I never said all people automatically believe what their parents believe. But the rational person would easily understand that children tend to believe what their parents teach them - that's the nature of the parent/child relationship.

 

...Vagabond: do you understand what you are not believing?...

 

Do you? I've never stated what I do, nor don't believe in. You're making another assumption, clouded by the very stereotypes that you so easily accuse others of.

 

To be quite honest, I don't feel the need to share my beliefs with you.

 

...the Gospels and their respective Epistles and Revelations were all written by those who knew Jesus and were his Apostles, therefore it was within at most a 30-40 year time period after his death: not the hyperbolic "hundreds"...

 

The bible was assembled from several books, written by different authors, over a hundred years after his death. Some of the books made it into the bible, while others did not. The decisions regarding which books made it into the bible were made by men. Those books that made it in were those that did not contradict one another - and some of these divine books were contradictory; furthermore, books that painted Jesus in a light that were not totally wholesome were also omitted - there were books describing the early childhood of Jesus and detailed his tantrums and use of "god-like" powers during his tantrums, which were not included.

 

And it was over a hundred years after Jesus’ death before the bible was ever assembled.

 

...Viewed from a historical and archaeological viewpoint, the Bible has been proven to be a very academically reliable ancient text...

 

That's an opinion. If anything, the new testament is the only part of the Bible that could have any hope of having described events that actually occurred.

 

The old testament is contradictory on the first two pages of Genesis. The first page dealing with the days of creation describes, I believe on the 4th or 5th day, that the animals were all created. The following day man is created. Turn the page, and then we go into more detail about the Garden of Eden. The story goes that Adam is walking around the Garden and starts to become lonely. Here's the contradiction: to provide Adam with companionship, before creating Eve, God first created the animals. So there you go - the "divine" old testament, product of prophets off to a roaring, contradictory start - neither accurate, nor reliable. So, if it can't get it straight on the first two pages, what other inaccuracies lie buried within its voluminous text?

 

...Thousands of Christians were murdered in the Colosseum (eaten by lions and tigers and crocodiles) again for refusing to deny the Bibles basic truths. Quite a sacrifice to make for a fictional book, that these people would have KNOWN was fictional...It is illogical to think that the very writers of a fictional book, that only garnered them exile and ultimately death, would write such a book when there was no personal gain...

 

Once people begin to believe in something, it takes on a life of its own, not unlike what is happening in this very thread. To argue that a person believed in a thing so strongly is proof that the belief is true, is false. Otherwise, Christians of long ago would have wished and believed really, really hard that the Earth was the center of the universe, even though it clearly was not.

 

I fully believe that the original Apostles believed Jesus was the son of God, no different than the followers of David Koresh believed he was God. People all over the world tend to believe in things that others do not. So I'm not sure what your point is - that if someone believes in something, and are willing to die for that belief, then that that belief must be true ?

 

I won't be responding further to your comments, but as I said at the beginning, wanted to correct some of your misstatements before closing this line of discussion with you.

[Mandalorian54]

Do you seriously believe that, or have you merely deluded yourself into believing that? Hmmm, then I wonder why most Hindus have Hindu parents, and most Jews have Jewish parents, and most Muslims have Muslim parents, and most Christians have Christian parents, etc, etc, etc?

 

acctually most Christians are recent converts and their parents are not Christians, I was told this by a missionary.

 

I really don't see any need to hype up about how many kids believe what their parents teach, each contry differs and each individual differs. I'm sure though that kids don't believe all of what thier parents teach them, but most of them probably at least believe a fair chunk of what their parents teach them.

 

Concerning the time period of the writings of the Bible, the whole Bible (new and old testament) was written over a two thousand year time span. That's what I'm taught.

 

And the new testament was in deed writen from I think 30 B.C. till about 100 B.C. ,if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't just written 30-40 years after.

 

The bible was assembled from several books, written by different authors, over a hundred years after his death. Some of the books made it into the bible, while others did not. The decisions regarding which books made it into the bible were made by men. Those books that made it in were those that did not contradict one another - and some of these divine books were contradictory; furthermore, books that painted Jesus in a light that were not totally wholesome were also omitted - there were books describing the early childhood of Jesus and detailed his tantrums and use of "god-like" powers during his tantrums, which were not included.

 

I don't think you really 'know' that some of the devine books were contradictory, and niether do you know that those who did not contradict one another where the ones placed in.

 

I'm taught that it was simply decided which books were writen with devine insight and those books were placed in the Bible, but many of them were not books but letters. Namely Paul's letters to the churches. And I have never heard anything about books describing Jesus' childhood. I don't really believe it but it's certainly possible.

 

That's an opinion. If anything, the new testament is the only part of the Bible that could have any hope of having described events that actually occurred.

 

The old testament is contradictory on the first two pages of Genesis. The first page dealing with the days of creation describes, I believe on the 4th or 5th day, that the animals were all created. The following day man is created. Turn the page, and then we go into more detail about the Garden of Eden. The story goes that Adam is walking around the Garden and starts to become lonely. Here's the contradiction: to provide Adam with companionship, before creating Eve, God first created the animals. So there you go - the "divine" old testament, product of prophets off to a roaring, contradictory start - neither accurate, nor reliable. So, if it can't get it straight on the first two pages, what other inaccuracies lie buried within its voluminous text?

 

It's not a contradiction, the animals do provide man with companionship, but it's not enough. As a kid you might have had a pet dog, when your board you pet your dog and it's cute but it can't talk and it doesn't have the intelectual capabuilities of providing a sufficient companion. So God created another better companion, a wife.

 

Is that so hard to understand?

 

Once people begin to believe in something, it takes on a life of its own, not unlike what is happening in this very thread. To argue that a person believed in a thing so strongly is proof that the belief is true, is false. Otherwise, Christians of long ago would have wished and believed really, really hard that the Earth was the center of the universe, even though it clearly was not.

 

that is true, but it is not mearly the fact that they were willing to die, but that not one of the 300 eye witnesses of Jesus' resurection ever even said it was all made up to save his life. What kind of a liar would die to make people think his lie was real? This is at least some significant evidence of the truth of scripture and that Jesus is in fact God.

 

I know that BrodieCadden was not saying that christianity is true because people believe it so much they are willing to die. He was only stating that people believe in it so much that they are willin to die. Not as a reason of it's realness.

 

He was only stating marvalouse happenings not using them as proof.

[Breton]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

 

Ive heard many people say, God made everything, so he must of made evil, then they say they dont want to follow a god like that.

But now I know God didnt make evil, before I didnt really know where evil came from, so I just said, Satan made evil, when he turned evil. But i was sort of right/wrong.

 

Its all about free will, and Satan. Yeah, weird huh? But heres the thing, Satan was the highest angel right?? God gave all the angels free will, icluding the will to rebell against him, if they so choose. Of course they could never overthrow God, but they could try. And thats what Satan did. You see, free will means, you can do what ever you want, including sin. So when Satan sinned, he became evil. Satan became to proud, because of his high position, and wanted more, so thats why he did what he did. He had everything, except ultimate power, he was the highest angel! And now he has lost everything! That explains it better, huh?

 

Firstly, tell me: What is evil? According to your post, everything that goes against the word of God is evil. But why is that? Does this mean I am an evil person because I do not believe in God? I have more respect for humans and others, and care more about weak and poor than many christians do. Yet I am evil, and these are not. Great world we are living in, eh?

 

And so you are saying that Satan is doomed to eternal torture because he went against God. This is a true sign that God strictly forbids any form of democracy, thus, democracy is evil in the eyes of God. According to Christians, the entire world is a huge dictatorship ruled by this one being. Every person who go against him, is sent to eternal torture. And what's all that crap about God being forgiving? According to the Bible, every person who does not believe in God shall be sent to hell for all eternity.

 

No, my simple answere was, he screwed up, now he must be punished. Satan is now without an excuse, he rebelled, willingly, and so did his followers (demons). So, he became the essence of evil (this probably should have been put up there, but anyways). He has no knowledge of good. You know Satan, thoguht he had won the war, when Christ was crucified. If he had known, that it would deliver us from sins, he would have stopped the crucifiction. Understand? Why would Satan want to lose his followers (us, human beings, sinners) he didnt knwo that the crucifiction would save us from our sins.

 

Let's think of it another way. A great and rich area is ruled by one person alone (Iraq, Saddam). This ruler like to be made out to be a kind and loving leader, who cares for everyone, and is good itself (Saddam still). Yet he severely punishes everyone who go against him or his regime. The people who does not like his rule, are "evil", and those who actually rebel him, are "demons and devils", and shall be sent away and tortured for ever (even worse than Saddam now).

 

Let me say it this way: If the Bible is true, we have all been living under a brutal dictatorship terror regime since the creation.

 

Why was Satan allowed to test them. If they hadnt sinned no one would go to Hell right? True. We would be in the Garden of Eden. They had been made with Holy hearts, but also, free will. There hearts had to be tested. And sadly they failed.

 

They were tempted with knowledge and wiseness. Everyone knows that a dictator can only hold his power as long as the people remains uneducated and unknowing of the things this dictator does not want them to know. It is pretty natural that they were "sinning", as they were threatening his superiority.

 

why does he rule? easy, he is God, no one is strong enough to challenge him. (name someone you know who can challenge God and win!) he made everything (hey you made it, its your right?), And he has enough power to back up his claims.

 

And when did you last actually see his power? When did you last see his name roaring in the sky as a belief of his all-powerfullness?

 

this is our proof that God will always do right. His love limits his sovereignty.God is love. This is so, he only punishhes lovingly. If he was not limited by love, he might get so angry, he might destroy us. This is proof that he is not a tyrant, or any kind of evil dictator. He cannot disown himself, or contradict himself. When people say hge made evil, he didnt, because that would mean the verse in the Bible which says God is love, would be wrong.

 

Tell me: Why doesn't he just destroy all evil in the world? He can't. As long as a dictator is in power, some people will always be against him.

 

And next about the love thingy: Yeah right! A being who has sent billions of perfectly innocent people to torture and burning slavery has no right to be called anything near lovingly. We know that according to the Bible, he is a dictator, and according to the Bible, he will torture and doom everyone who goes against him. Saying that God isn't a tyrant or an evil dictator is going against the Bible.

 

Like ive said before, God was lonley. He wanted somethign to fellowship with. In other words, he wanted a friend. But how fun is a robot? How good of a friend is a robot? it cant think, or feel, or laugh, or anything, it can only do what it is told to do. Thats not a friend, thats a slave, basically. So he gave us free will. A controlled being wouldnt make him happy. Only real love (that means, not forced love) can make him happy.

 

Then he should've made himself a Godess or something, instead of playing around with small beings for amusement.

 

"it cant think, or feel, or laugh, or anything, it can only do what it is told to do. Thats not a friend, thats a slave, basically."

 

Correct. And that is precicely how God wants us to be, since we are not allowed to go against him in any way.

 

This is something ive heard a lot. "Christ didnt go through that much pain, thousands died on crosses, thats the same punishment Christ got" Yeah he died on a cross, but there was mroe punishment than that. Ive wanted to say this for a while, but never really had the chance to. (or at least since ive known about it)

 

Yet, this punishement is NOTHING against the punishement God supposedly gives "sinners" each day.

 

There was more than just a cross. (this is a little gross, and lots of people dont like hearing about it) After some research i found out about this stuff. After this, I dont want anyone to ever say, Christ didnt go through a lot of pain.

 

Well, Satan went through more pain, and they were just as innocent. The only difference is that Satan did not like the dictatorship of God.

 

 

 

 

 

Mind you, I do not believe in the Bible, so that all of these statements aren't really real. I'm just saying that if God actually happens to excist, he's certainly not as good and loving as the christians want him.

[Vagabond]

Originally posted by Mandolorian54 ...I'm taught that it was simply decided which books were writen with devine insight and those books were placed in the Bible, but many of them were not books but letters. Namely Paul's letters to the churches. And I have never heard anything about books describing Jesus' childhood. I don't really believe it but it's certainly possible...

 

I'm the first to admit that I'm not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination. However, I did have the good fortune to work with a man who was very much a devout Christian - a man who I greatly respected, both for his intellect and integrity - this man spent much of his free time researching arcane facts and trivia regarding the history of Christianity and the Bible. During some of our good-natured religious debates, he began to educate me on some of the information he'd uncovered during his studies.

 

One of his interesting discoveries regarded how the bible was assembled, and how certain books, which can still be found if one looks hard enough for them, were excluded from the bible due to how they either contradicted other books, or because they didn't show Jesus is the most favorable light. Not to say that any of the books made Jesus appear evil - it's just that some of them made him appear more Human, especially some of those dealing with his early childhood.

 

You obviously don't need to take my word for it - look it up if you wish. I trust the man that told me these things - he was both a faithful Christian believer, and an intellectual. Plus, being a left-brained computer programmer, he was very careful about his facts. I wish I had a link to point you in the right direction, but if you're truly interested, I'm sure you can find it out on your own.

 

...It's not a contradiction, the animals do provide man with companionship, but it's not enough. As a kid you might have had a pet dog, when your board you pet your dog and it's cute but it can't talk and it doesn't have the intelectual capabuilities of providing a sufficient companion. So God created another better companion, a wife.

 

Is that so hard to understand?...

 

I don't think I was very clear on the exact nature of the contradiction. What I'm talking about is the sequence of events.

 

During the days section of Genesis, on the first page, all of the animals are created before Man (implying before both Adam and Eve).

 

On the next page, where the story of Genesis goes into more detail, we zoom into Adam in the Garden of Eden - Adam already exists. As Adam gets lonely, God's first attempt to provide Adam with companionship is to create the animals - which contradicts the first page of Genesis, which state that the animals were created before Man, not after.

 

This is the contradiction to which I refer. Hope that clears things up.

[lukeskywalker1]

1st thing: Why cant u people read everything ive said, ive answere half of this with in my 1st posts. But ill just redirect those who ask without reading to my other posts.

 

2nd, how has this turned into a debat? wasnt supposed to.

 

Firstly, tell me: What is evil? According to your post, everything that goes against the word of God is evil. But why is that? Does this mean I am an evil person because I do not believe in God? I have more respect for humans and others, and care more about weak and poor than many christians do. Yet I am evil, and these are not. Great world we are living in, eh?

 

Sin is evil! You have sinned, therefore you have ruined your chance to go to Heaven, but there is another way, that God has provided. (just so you know, listed above in my other posts, you might want to read them)

About God being a dictater, or tyrant, i answered that too, in an above post. Please read everything ive said. (i dont get it, you quoted when i explained he wasnt a tyrant, but you still post this stuff???)

And why shouldnt he rule? i answered that also in the top!

 

Well, Satan went through more pain, and they were just as innocent. The only difference is that Satan did not like the dictatorship of God.

 

How did Satan go through more pain? Hes not even in Hell yet...

If you going to argue, then please check up on what your arguing about, this is just annoying...

 

 

 

Stick around....

 

How many times have i insulted you? and please quote me.

 

 

There is NO proof of evolution, thus says all the evolutionists and scientists of today's modern science. I heard it from a scientist, so don't tell me you know better.

 

exaclty right, even Darwin, the guy who thought up evolution denounced the thoery. If the guy who thought it up said it was wrong, then why stick with it. He should know, he thought it up...lol

 

This, right here, is an implication that those who are never expose to your "true path" will go to hell. I know it's not exactly what you're saying, but it's certainly implied.

 

How on earth is that fair? "What's that, you never heard of Jesus Christ? Too bad, off to hell you go!"

 

Furthermore, do you really expect people who may have been raised from birth to be agnostic or atheist to suddenly convert simply because the bible said so, or some pastor said so, or you said so? It seems so, as you believe that they will go to hell for being raised a certain way.

 

I cant support this, and I cant believe that God would be so stupid and closed minded as to set up a system in which those who were made to be a certain way by powers not their own would be condemned for the sins of the fathers. Me, I've been raised to question everything I see. My parents are Roman Catholic, but they are this mostly because it's how they were raised. And they know this, and they want me to come to my own conclusions. To that end, they taught me to question everything and come to my own conclusions.

 

Have you sinned? yeah. So therfore, you are not worthy to go to Heaven. He has offered a second chance though, dont you see that? Its like following instructions to put something together, if you dont follow right, it wont work right. Its the same with Heaven.

 

lukeskywalker1, regarding one of your most recent posts - Who is God/Satan - Heaven/Hell - you're making the assumption that these entities and places exist - and therefore discussing them as fact is without basis.

 

Does the bible ever say God is real, no. It assumes you know that. Its starts with God created the world, so by reading that you assume, God created the world, so he has to be there to creat the world. By saying good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell, you say that, so you must assume, they are there.

btw, thats just a short quick version of what i said be4.

 

Before responding with, "But I do believe - I have faith...", first ask yourself why. Is it because that's the way you were raised? If so, then what if you were raised in the wild. Presuming God exists, merely for the sake of argument, would your blissfully ignorant life in the wild give you a different outlook on the existence of God? Would you have perhaps reached alternate conclusions on religion, if any at all? And if so, would these other beliefs have any impact at all on whether or not there truly is a God?

 

Once again, why cant people read all of my posts, be4 asking questions. Thats all im going to say, because its already answeres above in an earlier post.

 

And free will, not having a free will is diferent from not having a will at all. You seem to be confusing my bielief of not having a free will with not having a will at all.

 

I think our will is defined by certain characteristics and not entirely free. But we can still make desicions, God doesn't make all the decisions for us. Like I mentioned before:

 

Ah, I c now, didnt really know what you were talking about. Yeah, he controls us part of the time, but not a lot though. He controls non-believers too, but not a lot, only once in a while.

 

 

I suggest, do your research, read all of the thread, if not part of everyones post, so you will know whats going on. And if your going to try and proove a christian wronge, i suggest that you read your bible a little bit. It just gets annoying, this thread was made byu the assumption that you have read your bible. The rest is people just skipping posts, or reading them incorretly.

 

-lukeskywalker1

[lukeskywalker1]

it's just that some of them made him appear more Human, especially some of those dealing with his early childhood.

 

Well i would hope they would make him appear human, simply because he was fully human, and fully god, so, whats ur point?

He was human, so he could start our second chance. It was so he knew what being human was like. Yeah God knows everything, but whats beats a 1st hand expereince? Thats why His son interceds for us, on out behalf. Anyways, you cant kill God, so if Christ wasnt human, how could you kill him???

 

 

I don't think I was very clear on the exact nature of the contradiction. What I'm talking about is the sequence of events.

 

During the days section of Genesis, on the first page, all of the animals are created before Man (implying before both Adam and Eve).

 

On the next page, where the story of Genesis goes into more detail, we zoom into Adam in the Garden of Eden - Adam already exists. As Adam gets lonely, God's first attempt to provide Adam with companionship is to create the animals - which contradicts teh first page of Genesis, which state that the animals were created before Man, not after.

 

This is the contradiction to which I refer. Hope that clears things up.

 

*sigh, He made animals, he made Adam. He told Adam to pick one to be a companion, and Adam didnt find a suitable one.

 

-lukeskywalker1

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Let me say it this way: If the Bible is true, we have all been living under a brutal dictatorship terror regime since the creation.

This article comes to mind:

"God to end ”No crime” policy in Paradise, rethink government policies due to costs of MPs, student movement protests.

 

Following the student movement demonstrations against God’s authoritarian regime in Paradise, the Lord has been forced to reconsider the policies of his, according to him, “perfect world with no crime”.

 

Pearl Gates, Paradise: Said Gabriel, head of the Paradise *, “we have for a long time sought to be, and actually managed to be, a world of no crime, but it is now clear that with the cost of the massive force of Military Police units needed to maintain this policy, it’s simply not possible to uphold it.”(...)

 

”What we want is a leader who is more like the leader of Nirvana”, said one citizen. ”I mean, if a person is found unsuited for citizenship, they simply send them back to Earth. God insists on [burning] them. We realise the resources needed to send people back will take their toll on our beautiful nation, but...(...)

 

Another reason for the massive uproar in Heaven is the growing pubic desire for a Democracy. (...) The people are tired of living under a single leader who refuses to hold elections for other leaders, and who has been known to terrorise Democratic religions with more than one leader, such as the Norse, Aztec, and Greek mythologies, and forced the worshippers of these religions to join his regime.”(...)

 

Despite God’s claims, citizens worry that his new plans might be nothing but lies, and that Paradise might remain a dictatorship for many years yet, and that he might, instead of removing MPs, simply increase taxation to compensate for the loss of money needed to maintain these units(...).

 

Reporting live from Paradise..

 

/Off topic

 

Anyways..

 

Does the bible ever say God is real, no. It assumes you know that. Its starts with God created the world, so by reading that you assume, God created the world, so he has to be there to creat the world. By saying good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell, you say that, so you must assume, they are there.

That changes nothing, as it's still not an estibilished fact.

I don't care where in the Bible or Q'uran something is listed, if it can't be proven, and science has proved it wrong, I don't believe in it.

 

More contradictions: The commandments say that it's a sin to kill. Then it goes on to glorify the killling of Goliat, and the drowning of the soldiers by Moses.

 

I have a request here: Please quote where in the Bible you find your statements from. A lot of people here haven't read it for a while, or never at all.

[Vagabond]

lukeskywalker1, are you not paying attention to what I wrote, or are you merely ignoring it? If you are one of those people who claim that the bible is divine, and thereby without any flaw, then what I am telling you is that the bible is flawed - on it's opening page. Here - I'll spell it out very clearly so you can gloss over it:

 

1. The first page Genesis in the bible says that the animals were created before man.

 

2. The second page of Genesis in the bible says that man was created before the animals.

 

It's inconsistent and flawed. If to be divine means to be perfect, then the bible is neither.

 

This will be my final post to this thread because it appears that the participants in this discussion are not interested in an intellectual exchange. Rather, the people posting in this thread appear to only be interested in digging into their already preconceived ideas of the truth, and have closed their minds to any ideas that may threaten that which they hold dear.

 

Oh well - could have been a fun discussion. Later - have fun talking in circles

[munik]

Originally posted by Vagabond

Oh well - could have been a fun discussion. Later - have fun talking in circles

And the weak quit so easily. Your point is hard to understand, because you are being vague. Not everyone's bible has the same amount of words on each page, or even the same font or page size, or margin width. So, to that effect, telling someone it's on the first and second page, while narrowing it down to the start, is still vague.

Gen 1:23: It is the 5th day of creation.

Gen 1:26-27: God and his other god friends create man. This verse is also one of many that affirm there are other gods.

Gen 2:1: The seven day waiting period is over.

Gen 2:18-19: This is the supposed contradiction, that god saw adam was lonely and formed the animals for him to find a companion. Adam didn't find one he liked, so god took a rib and made eve.

 

Now, while I do not necessarily believe in this contradiction, as in the second chapter he uses the word formed, which I believe is akin to a gods power to conjure, it can still be viewed as a contradiction. And there are plenty of those in the bible, it would be folly to ignore that fact. And almost useless to bring it up, even though it is fun. lukeskywalker1 already refuted your contradiction here, yet you feel the need to ride his ass about it some more. What do you need, someone to come over to your house with a bible and point the verses out for you?

 

So, as this thread is huge now, and most of my replies have already been said, I'll add a few things.

 

Jesus's crucifixion wasn't much worse then anyone else's. Everyone was scourged, and considering the fact that the Romans only crucified the vilest scum of their society we can safely assume that everyone else was humiliated and probaly smacked around too.

 

There are other gods, god even attests to this, as do some of the bible authors.

 

God is not a good guy, as has been mentioned before. If you can sway me to love god without mentioning either of these two facts: He tells me to love him and if I don't love him he will send me to hell...well, if you could do that you would have quite the silver tongue. As I have rarely seen an argument that doesn't point out those reasons as to why you should go with god. Maybe you could list of all the good reasons why you love god, and then all of the bad reasons why you love god. Then we could weigh them out, and see if the good outweigh the bad. Then, after that, we could find a woman whose husband beats the sh*t out of her all the time, and threatens to kill her if she leaves. And we could play the same good/bad list game with her, and see how closely your list and her list resemble each other.

[lukeskywalker1]

Gen 1:26-27: God and his other god friends create man. This verse is also one of many that affirm there are other gods.

 

 

You misunderstand this, when he says WE, he means, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Even Christ says he is the Alpha and the Omega which means beginning and end. That means, he was there in the beginning, and he will be there in the end, or will be the end.

 

Jesus's crucifixion wasn't much worse then anyone else's. Everyone was scourged, and considering the fact that the Romans only crucified the vilest scum of their society we can safely assume that everyone else was humiliated and probaly smacked around too.

 

True, but they did that to people who were not Roman citizens, it was illegal to do that to a citizen, Christ was a citizen so he should have only been hung, but they did more. Not to mention they didnt have any reason to beat him at all. They just did.

 

God is not a good guy, as has been mentioned before. If you can sway me to love god without mentioning either of these two facts: He tells me to love him and if I don't love him he will send me to hell...well, if you could do that you would have quite the silver tongue. As I have rarely seen an argument that doesn't point out those reasons as to why you should go with god. QUOTE]

 

Maybe your right, maybe thats why no one really believes what I say, or they try to prove it wrong, hmmm.... youve given me something to think about (about my whole ministry, btw no im not a preacher)

 

We will start with John 3:16 this shows plenty of love:

 

John 3:16- God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.

 

The Good News shows God's love

 

The Good News is the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross, he was buried, and then he rose again on the third day, so people can be saved.

 

Romans 1:16-17- I am proud of the Good News, because it is the power God uses to save everyone who believes - to save the Jews first, and also to save those who are not Jews. The Good News shows how God makes people right with himself - that it begins and ends with faith. As the Scripture says, "But those who are right with God will live by trusting him.

 

oh well if you look here, you find that you have to believe in Christ or you cant go to heaven.

 

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Now, brothers and sisters, I want you to remember the Good News I brought to you. You recieved this Good News and continued strong in it. And you are being saved by it if you continue believing what I told you. If you do not, then you believe for nothing.

 

 

 

oh yeah, and if you read here it explains why most people wont turn.

 

John 3:16-21- "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. People who believe in God's Son are not to be judged guilty. Those who do not believe have already been judged guilty, because they have not believed in God's one and only Son. They are judged by this fact: The Light has come into the world, but they did not want light. They wanted darkness, because they were doing evil things. All who do evil hate the light and will not come to the light, because it will show all the evil things they do. But those who who follow the true way come to the light, and it shows that the things they do were done through God."

 

ill be back later, i got stuff i need to do.

 

-lukeskywalker1

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Uhm.. so because I'm a buddhist I do evil stuff, and I'm a buddhist because I do evil stuff.

 

Let me just say this: This total lack of respect towards different ethnic groups, religions, including the idea of Hell, was one of the main reasons why I gave up chrsitianity. I just sat there and thought, "what the Heck"?

 

Christianity, while I don't dislike it, is one of the religion that does the most to ensure all other religions other than itself looks bad. Hinduism, I believe is the most tolerant one.

 

People like Lukeskywalker1, IMO, are one of the main reasons why people won't turn, and why so many people dislike christianity.

 

John 3:16- God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life

Translation: God "loved" the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that those who happen to have other religions will burn in Hell."

 

Love my Ass.

[lukeskywalker1]

Dude, its a forum, you dont have to read it. Am I putting buddhism down? And hey why should you be mad? Buddhism doesnt talk of a Heaven or Hell, so why are you worrying. If your right, then nothing happens right???

 

Uhm.. so because I'm a buddhist I do evil stuff, and I'm a buddhist because I do evil stuff.

 

 

Did i say that? I didnt say Buddhism is a sin, I said there is one way to Heaven, Christ himself said it, and thats that! We all sin, and theres no way you can say you dont. If you know any other way to get to Heaven, please enlighten me. Ill even say im sorry for saying all of this if you can find one.

 

Hey shouldnt people be punished for wrong doings??? So can I kill you or a one of your family members, and say oh well, and not get punished???

 

All sin is equal in God's eyes! Therefore, I can kill 10,000 people, and you can lie, and we are still as guilty as each other!! Just because we have sinned. Meaning, you can just say 1 lie your whole life, and that 1 lie makes you unholy, and therefore, you cant get into Heaven.

 

Whats wrong, cant you humble yourself, and say Im sorry, I sin, please forgive me???? Is that so hard???

 

But anyways you know you dont have to read it, you choose to read it. If you cant take it, then oh well. Read the bible, check my verses, there all there. Im not just making up some stuff.

 

-lukeskywalker1

[lukeskywalker1]

I fully believe that the original Apostles believed Jesus was the son of God, no different than the followers of David Koresh believed he was God. People all over the world tend to believe in things that others do not. So I'm not sure what your point is - that if someone believes in something, and are willing to die for that belief, then that that belief must be true ?

 

 

Werent those people high though? just wondering, i think ive heard of that David dude. But anyways.You have to be a Christian to really understand this stuff. But who has died more for there religion? Christians! And you wonder why? If Christianity is so bad, then why are people willing to die for it, or for His name? Hey Christ died for us, so what could be greater than dying for him? Millions of Christians die each year, just for saying "hey im a christian, and proud to be 1 too."

 

 

Christianity, while I don't dislike it, is one of the religion that does the most to ensure all other religions other than itself looks bad.

 

Maybe. But you know whats so different about Christianity? Its because Christianity, is only a viewed as a religion to the World, But to a Christian, Christianity is mor ehten a religion, its a relationship with Jesus Christ!

 

How many other "religions" have a savior that dies for you?

How many other "religions" have a God that is willing to say, ok, youve sinned, but since you have followed my rules, we will just erase those sins?

How many other "religions" actually have a God that can talk to you and respond? (yeah of course it sounds wierd to any non-believer! But to a Christian, its as normal as me talking to you!

 

Yeah, that verse i quoted above always makes people mad, cause they know its true.

 

Look at this, and keep in mind, God himself said this:

 

JOB 40 verse 6-17

 

Then the LORD spoke to Job from the storm:

"Be strong, like a man!

I will ask you questions,

and you must answere me.

Would you say that I am unfair?

Would you blame me to make yourself

look right?

Are you as strong as God?

Can your voice thunder like his?

If so, then decorate yourself with glory

and beauty;

dress in honor and greatness as if they

were clothing.

Let your great anger punish;

look at the proud and bring them

down.

Look at the proud and make them

humble.

Crush the wicked wherever they are.

Bury them all in the dirt together;

cover their faces in the grave.

If you can do that, then I myself will

praise you,

because you are strong enough to save

yourself.

 

Its a bit longer, but I wont quote that much, it gets the point across.

 

-lukeskywalker1

 

"Scriptures quoted from The Holy Bible, New Century Version,

copyright © 1987, 1988, 1991 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas

75039. Used by permission."

[munik]

I don't really buy that anytime god uses the plural in reference to things he does (we,us) that he means the trinity. Another thing that I think supports multiple gods is the commandment about not having other gods before him or such. I know you said it was about made up gods, but why would god need to make this commandment? Didn't those with moses (isrealites?) have more then enough proof of god during their journey? Why would they turn away from a real god and worship made up ones? God was insecure, or jealous, and as such made that commandment. (This is just one side of it, as what I really believe is that moses made it all up, but if he did not then this argument would be valid). The trinity seems a little slippery to me. Maybe if I saw some verses that referenced it to help me understand it.

 

Also, why should I love god? His love is an intangible thing, as is he. I love my wife, my daughter, hell even my cats, and this love is reciprocated which is fulfilling. I don't really love the earths core, as this is an intangible thing to me, even though I believe it exists. I'm not asking for proof before I commit, because I believe there will never be any. I'm just saying that how do those who believe in god, love god? This cannot be the same love that I experience throughout my life.

 

How, after accepting god and loving him, can I do all that he asks of me? How can I not sin? I know god will forgive me if I ask, but how can I ask god to forgive me for something that I am not ashamed of doing? There are things that god says not to do that I don't believe I could possibly ever give up. Why do I have to change for god? How come god cannot accept me for the flawed human being that I am?

 

I love my daughter, and I don't believe that will ever change. I would say it would never change, but I cannot see into the future or predict all paths. So, as of now, regardless of any heinious acts that I can imagine she may commit in the future, I don't think I could ever forsake her, or stop loving her, or put her in pain because of it. Having said that, how come god has no qualms about doing such to me? How can god stop loving me? How come his love is conditional?

 

Can you answer those questions without the threat of hell, and without saying "because god tells me to"?

[lukeskywalker1]

Maybe if I saw some verses that referenced it to help me understand it.

 

The word trinity is never used, but its meaning (God, Son, Holy Spirit) is implied in this verse:

 

 

Mathew 3:16-17

As soon as Jesus was baptised, he came up out of the water. Then heaven opened, and he saw God's Sprit come down on him like a dove. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him."

 

In these verses, all three participate. And its in another place, check this out, because I really dont feel like typing it up:

 

John 14:23-26 that has some stuff about it also, although it isnt said directly, its there. You see they are one, but 3 different beings. For EX:

1+1+1=3 right? well 1x1x1=1 see?

But its still monotheistic, because there is one God, but they are 3 persons. But its basically, beyond human understanding.... and we just must accpet that, the way evolutionists must accept that they may never find everything they are looking for.

 

 

 

 

I don't really buy that anytime god uses the plural in reference to things he does (we,us) that he means the trinity. Another thing that I think supports multiple gods is the commandment about not having other gods before him or such. I know you said it was about made up gods, but why would god need to make this commandment? Didn't those with moses (isrealites?) have more then enough proof of god during their journey?

 

while he was giving that command, or about the same time, they were building a golden calf in otherwords, an idol. Not to mention Egypt had false gods, and so did many other places. The 10 commandments were not written at the biggining of time. It also applys today. Even though we dont have stone gods, (or at least not where im at, i dont think) we can still have false gods. Like im obsessed with something, and do whatever it is all the time, it becomes like a god to me, well God says its wrong. So when he refers to other gods hes refering to all these different things.

 

or jealous

 

Did you think that up yourself? Well, your right, and he admitts it, plenty of times. He wants us all to himself, which is basically what life is about, not to us, but to Satan and God. Satan says that he can grab more souls than God can. Of course he is jealous, weve turned our backs on him! Weve gone to other "idols" instead of worshipping the true god, God!

This verse should clear things up-

 

Corinthians 8 verse 5

Even though there are thigns called gods, in heaven or on earth (and there are many "gods" and "lords"), for us there is only one God - our Father. All things came from him, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord - Jesus Christ. All things were made through him, and we were also made through him.

 

Ah, see, when in Genisis, when God says, we will make man in the image of ourselves, then if you read that verse it tells us, we were made through Christ, so he must of been there too!

 

Also, why should I love god?

 

Because He loves us. BTW half of everything is faith dude. If you only have the faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move mountains! But back on topic- #1 Jesus died for you, for me, and everyone else. Im surprised, thats nough to mak eme want ot love him. While he hung there, in the sun, he thought of us, he knew we would sin again, but he still did it, just so we wouldnt die from our sins! Thats love. Think about the thousands of sins you have done. God forgives you for each of them, thats unconditional love. Its like hurting someone and saying sorry. After a while if you keep doing this, they dont forgive you anymore, well God doesnt. He still forgives, although the general idea is forgive and dont sin again, bu we are human, and christ intercedes for us.

 

 

 

How, after accepting god and loving him, can I do all that he asks of me? How can I not sin? I know god will forgive me if I ask, but how can I ask god to forgive me for something that I am not ashamed of doing? There are things that god says not to do that I don't believe I could possibly ever give up. Why do I have to change for god? How come god cannot accept me for the flawed human being that I am?

 

Ah, well its simple, ask and you shall receive. Say i have a problem with lying ( i mentioned this above) I ask God to help me not to lie, and ill do my best when a situation pops up, to try not to lye. And you will have the Holy Spirit to guide you anyways. God will change you, into a better person. A way better person. After all, didnt Christ make blind men see? Cripled men walk? Dead men live? He did this because those men had faith. You will just feel his love. Its so great and powerful.

 

Everyone has a void in there life. Everyone. Thats when God tuggs on your heart. You search for something, you dont know what, but you know something is missing. That void is where God is supposed to be. He will make you whole. With there help, you can move mountains, but only if you believe, if you dont, then its not worth even trying.

 

For better advise, read the gospel of James, it has a lot to do with what you have asked, if you questions, post it, and ill try to help. Its not long, about 4 chaptersm 3-4 pages. Wont take you more than 20-30 mins, if that to read. And hey, if it answeres your question then it was worth reading right?

 

And if you have even more time on your hands, read Hebrews, its longer, but it explains how peoples lifes are made better through christ.

 

How come his love is conditional?

 

He has unconditional love, think of all the sins people do, but he still cares about them.

 

 

Ephesians 1:5

Becuse of his love, God had already decided to make his own children through Jesus Christ. That is what he wanted and what pleased him, and it brings praise to God because of his wonderful grace. God gave that grace to us freely, in Christ, the One he loves.

 

"Scriptures quoted from The Holy Bible, New Century Version,

copyright © 1987, 1988, 1991 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas

75039. Used by permission."

 

-lukeskywalker1