Fight Club

[Homuncul]

Everyone's talking about either about Iraq or ridicule christians or fighting for evolution or banning books (I do the same)

 

What about fighting

 

"How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in fight?"

 

Let's talk about real fighting. Not some punch kick in the shoulder or kicking balls for joke. The one where you stand and have to do anything before you're killed.

 

I've been in fight seriously and unseriously. I remember my early fights. This was really not funny because of an uncontrolled fear. Imagine you stand and understand that it's going to be fight (not even to death). And at the same instance everything Darwin says in his book about emotions comes true. You faint, muscules relax, you can't think of anything rather than "I lose". That's when I was really beaten by those who were weaker than me physically.

I've been working with myself for a lot of time and now can formulate my feelings about it.

I really was a winner in couple of fights. One was with a friend when I had to face two morrons, one with a knife. My friend seemed to have these familiar symptoms I had so he couldn't do anything. And I was in situation where everything depended on my actions. I tryed focus only on the move and read their bodies and forget about fear and anything else as I was tought while practicing aikido. These few moments before the the actual fight were really defining the result of that fight. I began working on the knife not speaking a word. Adrenalin was tremendous, I wanted to scream while I was moving to those suckers. I was lucky, I put one with the knife with the simple trick moving behind him and took out the knife. The second bustard fleed fearly. My soly luck was in surprise of motion. If I worked slower I would lose. And the first still cut my shirt.

 

Now it comes to this. Kill or be killed law is not absolute. I try not to fight at all even compromise with my opponents not to provocate the fight. You don't need to wait till your enemy makes a first move. As soon as you see his intention you can start your defense either by attacking or retreating. I chose to help my friend and attacked first. My speed and reaction helped me but it not always helps.

 

And another interestring thing I noticed. A man with a knife if not matured is destined to lose in the first place because he thinks of his knife as the only powerful weapon he's got at the moment and forgets about his body and mind. He's fighting only with his knife while i had my body to counter him.

 

So why are we fighting? Either we 're pushed to it or we push ourselves. I know I'm afraid to fight and it's a healthy fear when it drives you to cool actions. If you're stuck you have to do something about such a fear (start a martial art for example).

 

The philosophy of aikido demands thinking of a fight as peace establishing act. I can't yet feel that, I'm not that matured but I believe my sensei about that. For me fight is about winning or retreating not to lose. There's no point in fighting if you know you can't win and it's not a cowardry to run, it's logic and our selfish gene fighting for our survival (because these things are also heredetary).

 

So the questions are:

1. Have you been in fight with your life questioned?

2. What fight means for you (physically and mentally)?

3. Is pacifism really a goal for any fighting?

4. Would you please make some questiones yourselves?

[C'jais]

I haven't been in a fight in ages. I used to be quite the violent kid when I was younger, but I haven't fought people seriously for about 4-5 years. I don't know, I guess I just avoid the places and the people who are looking for fights.

 

When I was in Spain recently, two beggers came up to me and another guy and asked for money. My Spanish friend gave them money, but I decided just to shake their hands and tell them I didn't have any, while pretending to be the stupid foreigner I was.

Later, I learned the two "beggers" had pointed a knife at us, and I didn't notice at all. Not that I was planning on attacking them or anything, in hindsight I thought I did the sensible thing, though it might have been regarded as foolish.

 

I can hardly remember what I felt when fighting, but I think I used to scream and leap at my opponent, clawing at them like raving mad. I do remember that I could really work up a frothing rage for whoever I was fighting.

 

Now though, I think I'd rather run than fight. It might not be the best idea, but I don't think that I'd stand a chance. If I had the oppurtunity, I'd try to give them a well-placed hit that'd send them reeling, before hitting the ground running.

 

Oh, and I've just started taking Aikido lessons, so things might change (though of course I'll still avoid fights).

[tictoc]

At a young age I did kick boxing for more than 5 years and I did plenty of weapons traing, I was only showed a little how to use a weopon, but mainy taught to disarm a person instead. Doing a marshal art is good for looking after yourself in such instances. It not only prepares you for such confrontations but teaches u how to act.

 

I've been in two fights with people with knifes and managed to come away unharmed, I beleive that using a weapon is cowardly and dishonourable.

 

If a weapon is an extension of your body, then surly just using your body to fight is as good as any weapon?

[Homuncul]

If a weapon is an extension of your body, then surly just using your body to fight is as good as any weapon?

I've been in two fights with people with knifes and managed to come away unharmed, I beleive that using a weapon is cowardly and dishonourable.

 

Right but I don't think it's dishonourable . Still a weapon in a matured arm (knife, sword) can give you advantage. If I to meet 5 bandits in the lonly street naked arms and I would have a sword I wouldn't drop (even if it was one bandit attacking me) it to show my dignity if only I can foretell with high probability that I wpuld win him with bare hands (which is very hard to do).

 

I was also once beaten by a kickboxer. We studied together for a few months, pretty much to know each other. He punched my nose to blood. I didn't answer him, I knew as a professional kickboxer he's gonna cut me in to pieces. And surely I made some mistake in not estimating of how agressive people can actually be. If someone would say to me: "Hey you dumbarse, you're such a f**ked up" I would only consider it a joke from a friend. But this guy was something different. He told with a very kind voice "You'll gonna get it now" then he hit me in a face. In Russia it's just such a common thing that you finally get used to it.

 

Now though, I think I'd rather run than fight. It might not be the best idea, but I don't think that I'd stand a chance. If I had the oppurtunity, I'd try to give them a well-placed hit that'd send them reeling, before hitting the ground running.

Oh, and I've just started taking Aikido lessons, so things might change (though of course I'll still avoid fights).

 

I think that avoiding fights is a very generous thing and furthermore is a much more healthy for our psychological state than accepting any fight proving yourself you're not a coward. And I think the first step to prepare for the situation where fighting is inevitable is to analyze your emotional state. The body only responds to the minds's commands so you must think in a hyper manner during those things. But when you know there's no way to run and no arguments would help what would you do or at least try to do? For my part I can't tell for sure I think 20 years more of training and I can answer that.

About aikido. It's very difficult so don't count on momentary result like you can achieve in 2 months of karate training and there's a big chance you'll be dissapointed from the beginning by it. But later it shows such marvelous things that at present moment I can't think of any martial art (although I respect most of them) to be as productive as aikido

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Homuncul

About aikido. It's very difficult so don't count on momentary result like you can achieve in 2 months of karate training and there's a big chance you'll be dissapointed from the beginning by it. But later it shows such marvelous things that at present moment I can't think of any martial art (although I respect most of them) to be as productive as aikido

 

Ah, don't worry about the self defense - as I said, I'll just run (I have very fast legs indeed)

 

I'm more interested in it for the excercise and active meditation.

 

 

Oh, and I dig the Ki philosophy

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Except from fighting my brother, no.

 

I don't believe in violence, physical punishment, or warfare (I know, Hippie:D). However, as a last resort, it might be used.

 

There was this big 12-grader in my school who bullied me until I ran at him, intending to do something like slapping or punching him in the face. Heck, he was big, so he just threw me away by hitting his elbow into me. BUT he never bugged me or even talked to me after that.

[munik]

I got in some fights in highschool, but in retrospect they were probaly little pansy fights. Never had to fight for my life, but I reckon I'm always prepared for it. If I go out somewhere crowded, like a mall or something, with my family, I'm always eyeballing everyone, assessing the situation. Failing at protecting the family would probaly be one of the worst things I think could happen. But, I have had plenty of training concerning threats to my life, so I am more then confident of my ability. I did do some fighting during my time in the Corps, but those were mostly barroom scuffles, or fighting with friends to see who is better, not out of anger.

[Homuncul]

Ah, don't worry about the self defense - as I said, I'll just run (I have very fast legs indeed)

I'm more interested in it for the excercise and active meditation.

 

Still what if there's no place to run and no meditation will help unless you're advanced enough to teleport yourself some place else (I heard stories about that).

I disregard a bit pacifism. It's an attitude mostly (not always) of those who afraid to break the line or have a Jesus attitude. When time comes they would be unable to react adequately to whatever comes to them.

 

I'm not provocating to fight or to be beaten (openly) but I think it's an experience that'll help. So postulating: "Taste the fight or be hit, anyway you'll profit if not die". Just don't neglect when it comes. Of course i'm not refering to starting the fight. Just when it comes to you try to focus and let it flow. It's easy to say than to do and furthermore I can't do such things yet (although I have some friendly sparing with real hits). but when it'll come for real next time I'll do it better than the last time I did.

The reason for my fight is not to break or to kill but to win by reassuring my apponent to attack with possibly not hurting him much.

 

And another thing. Have anyone been beaten really tough? (I 've been). When lying on the ground and the only thing you think above pain is how to cover your head and balls. And you've got nothing to do and no place to run and you only think when they're gonna stop kicking you. These were drunk skin guys that were looking for someone to hit, no matter whom. After that I was trying to think very carefully for what I did wrong in that situation, why did I fail? There were things but the main was again of me not estimating from the beginning the situation properly. I should've run first then ask questions, instead I stopped to listen to what they say and got what I deserve (a dose of adrenalin and pain). Fortunately they didn't hurt me that hard to hurt any organs or make me invalid (think it's because they were drunk).

 

About only simple meditation and exercise.

 

Of course it can help you with time to reach such a state that you can dodge bullets like Neo does. But meditation is really really sophisticated. It takes great time and right direction.

I think at present moment that experience matters even more than a technique. 'll rethink about that later I'm sure

 

Aikido is an exercise and a test of it.

 

So actually at some point you'll understand that physical strengh is an essential part of any martial training. And you'll succeed. Then of course in years you'll rethink about it and come to the realization we have now in aikido that physical strengh is not important. And then you think this is the talk of a "weak" 60 years old 7th dan master who knows how to be strong cause he passed that step (using his 30 klgms hammer as a boken).

 

P.S. C'jais, do you study kiaikido or what?

[Breton]

Personally, I've never been in a real fight, and frankly, I don't want to be either. Fighting solves nothing, and the only thing you'll "learn", is that violence is an acceptable way of going on in your life.

 

Out of own experience, I see that to start a real fight, both parts must be provocating. If you come in a fight, it is very likely that it's your own fault, though this is not always the case.

 

BTW, if you want to stop a guy from hitting you, simply don't hit back. No one is so pathetic that they will beat someone who simply is bored by it.

[griff38]

So the questions are:

1. Have you been in fight with your life questioned?

2. What fight means for you (physically and mentally)?

3. Is pacifism really a goal for any fighting?

4. Would you please make some questiones yourselves?

 

 

1, I once along with 3 friends when to a nightclub that was "offlimits" to us because we were Marines in a Navy town. We were there 15 minutes and decided we should leave and were jumped by 6 sailors outside. I felt like my life was in danger so I fought like it. 1 guy swung a knife at me and I managed to kick him very hard. To this day I feel I was totally justified in giving that kick all I had, but to this day I feel guilty for possibly hurting him seriously. I never found out. He went down and it broke up pretty quick when the shore patrol arrived.

2 I consider myself totally capable at all times but only as a last resort and with compasion and discipline where possible.

3 No.

4 There is nothing wrong with wanting to fight or kill, only acting apon these feelings could be wrong. Self defense is the key, almost any human culture accepts fighting as self defense.

My question is, what gives anyone the right to use violence for any other reason than self defense?

 

We are the most evolved predator that has ever lived, our violent nature is natural. But with so many of us packed onto this tiny planet it benifits us all to put and end to real violence. Sports, First Person Shooters, Movies, Books and other destractions from our violent nature are very helpful aids for some of us not being violent:p

[Shotokan]

Although I haven't gotten into a fight, I believe I'd be able to handle myself after panicking for a bit . I have a black belt in karate and right now I'm training in tae kwon do. I'd say I'm pretty competent... I've come close to fighting some guy before though...

[Iodius]

"I can't think of any martial art (although I respect most of them) to be as productive as aikido "

 

Wing Chun Kung Fu. The proven most effective real fight situation martial art in the world. Hong Kong police force used to use it, but it was banned for them because it is far too agressive.

 

Most Japanese martial arts in the Karate/Judo areas are not that effective in real fight situations. Karates hard blocking and dangerous weight distribution and telegraphed punches and kicks make it highly flawed outside of the ring, were there are no rules.

 

"Personally, I've never been in a real fight, and frankly, I don't want to be either. Fighting solves nothing, and the only thing you'll "learn", is that violence is an acceptable way of going on in your life.

 

Out of own experience, I see that to start a real fight, both parts must be provocating. If you come in a fight, it is very likely that it's your own fault, though this is not always the case.

 

BTW, if you want to stop a guy from hitting you, simply don't hit back. No one is so pathetic that they will beat someone who simply is bored by it."

 

That is absolute rubbish Breton. If someone really angry, drunk perhaps, hits you once and you don't hit back, they will hit you again, and again, and again. Believe me, some people ARE that pathetic.

 

Both parties must provocate? I got into a fight once because some over confident Russian chap saw that I looked Italian. My racial background is now called provoking someone? Gimme a break.

 

 

 

There are many more more effective streetfighting martial arts than Aikido. Wing Chun, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to name two. Aikido is becoming too stylised and rigid to become as truly effective as it could of been. Double handed blocking techniques are silly (why use two when one is sufficient?) and the circular motions take too much time to launch and are telegraphed: a good linear attacker (a Wing Chun exponent) would make quick work of an Aikido student.

[Breton]

Originally posted by BrodieCadden

That is absolute rubbish Breton. If someone really angry, drunk perhaps, hits you once and you don't hit back, they will hit you again, and again, and again. Believe me, some people ARE that pathetic.

 

 

One must be really drunk to do this. And anyway, why not block their hits instead of hitting back? Shouldn't be much of a problem, should it?

 

Both parties must provocate? I got into a fight once because some over confident Russian chap saw that I looked Italian. My racial background is now called provoking someone? Gimme a break.

 

So, beacuse he saw you and you looked Italian, he just ran at you and started beating the crap out of you? I doubt that.

 

Seems to me like you like to fight.

[munik]

Originally posted by Breton

So, beacuse he saw you and you looked Italian, he just ran at you and started beating the crap out of you? I doubt that.

 

Seems to me like you like to fight.

I can tell that you've never ended up in the wrong neighborhood before.

 

Once in L.A. a bunch of friends and I took the wrong exit of the 5 and onto Crenshaw blvd. Had we not enough sense to run back to the truck and drive away fast, we would have been beat for being white. Same thing.

[Homuncul]

griff38:

We are the most evolved predator that has ever lived, our violent nature is natural. But with so many of us packed onto this tiny planet it benifits us all to put and end to real violence. Sports, First Person Shooters, Movies, Books and other destractions from our violent nature are very helpful aids for some of us not being violent

 

Yeah, violence is genetic desease and the only competitive genetic mechanism we have in our nature.

I think violence is something we will never conquer and some might say that Sports, First Person Shooters, Movies, Books and other destractions only provocate people to be violent. I think it does but I don't mean It should be banned or something. As you said it's our nature.

 

My question is, what gives anyone the right to use violence for any other reason than self defense?

 

Revenge for example. It's not always self defence literally speaking. Or would you let your cheeks be slaped or wouldn't you want to kill someone who murders your child even unintentiously?

 

Breton:

Out of own experience, I see that to start a real fight, both parts must be provocating. If you come in a fight, it is very likely that it's your own fault, though this is not always the case.

 

BTW, if you want to stop a guy from hitting you, simply don't hit back. No one is so pathetic that they will beat someone who simply is bored by it.

 

I think that you Breton live in some illusion. Maybe you're idealist (no offense ment). Maybe you just can't imagine those really bad guys to exist cauze you've never seen them. If you really try you will find a big number of morrons that'll beat for nothing. No kind voices, no preys, no arguments, no participation in something they beat you for and of course no amendment on alcahol (they sometimes do it without one) WILL HELP.

 

BrodieCadden:

Most Japanese martial arts in the Karate/Judo areas are not that effective in real fight situations. Karates hard blocking and dangerous weight distribution and telegraphed punches and kicks make it highly flawed outside of the ring, were there are no rules.

 

There are many more more effective streetfighting martial arts than Aikido. Wing Chun, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to name two. Aikido is becoming too stylised and rigid to become as truly effective as it could of been. Double handed blocking techniques are silly (why use two when one is sufficient?) and the circular motions take too much time to launch and are telegraphed: a good linear attacker (a Wing Chun exponent) would make quick work of an Aikido student.

 

First thing's first. There's no blocking in aikido.

 

I think that you're not fully right at least about karatedo. Many people judge it by the way it looks on the championships, while in reality it's a different thing. First of all it's a way so it claims for fundamentality. Second it is really a martial art so do you really think that ages of it's development gave absolutely nothing? It's really a powerful ally when know how to use it.

 

Can't tell much about judo, only of what's been taken from it and interpreted a bit differently by aikido.

 

And concerning street fighting every martial has something to offer there. Actually I think street fighting techniques are more like a justification for not understanding one's martial art principles. Still I do street fighting because I got nothing to offer at the moment when comes to a really quick reaction need and life's questioned.

 

By the way the origin of Aikido is Dayto Ryu AikiJutsu (meaning that it came from the private school of AikiJutsu which adopted many things and Jiu Jitsu is it's base)

 

About ineffective aikido

 

As I said it's very hard to understand aikido first. And it takes much more time in succeeding in it than in any other martial art I know and tryed a bit.

 

It really is only considered stylised because of misunderstanding. Great masters (8th dan) are showing us the techniques only in that manner that we (and anyone) can understand it and aikido principles in it. when it comes to what they can really do we won't understand. But there's no reason at all for them to show up and kill people while they can. They have such an enormous measure of control over themselves that when meeting a bad guy on the street they would only make him lose not hurting him. We can't do that . We can either be killed due to our umatured body and mind or kill (or hurt strongly) by the same reason.

 

I had a seminar with 6th dan and he was showing some basic-circular-broad-slow techniques to demonstrate us that principles don't change through different techniques but remain the same. He chose as uke (reciever of the technique) some big and fast, agressive fellow (he didn't know that at first). Started to show slowly but that fellow was in a rush and tryed to faster the technique. At moment it came to the point where our sensei couldn't do a slow technique and a fist

was "flowing" towards his breast uncontrollably. Then he did something fast but very small. For me it was like he moved a centimeter from the attack line and somehow worked on the hand. The next instamce a fellow was lying on the ground and was harmless. He wasn't hurt he just couldn't attack anymore.

 

And again aikido is a martial art of love. Only if you don't hear about proving it can break arms and legs is only because such actions are opposite to it's goal. If Brazilian Jiu Jutsu offers that then it's a bit not for me and that's all. And I'm quite sure that it's pseudoeffectiveness was proven by those young students that only began studying about 3 years ago. Every master of a competential martial art with time comes to realization of simple matters: that aggresiveness isn't important, that winning is not in killing the opponent or breaking him. In that manner I think every martial art is united.

 

Yet I myself can't offer anythng either than streetfighting for now. So I'm with ya. :

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Homuncul

Still what if there's no place to run and no meditation will help unless you're advanced enough to teleport yourself some place else (I heard stories about that).

I disregard a bit pacifism. It's an attitude mostly (not always) of those who afraid to break the line or have a Jesus attitude. When time comes they would be unable to react adequately to whatever comes to them.

 

Ah, I think you misunderstood me.

 

I don't intend to run away from a fight, full stop. If a guy gives me a hit in solar plexus, you can bet I'll return the blow. If someone looks like he's trying to pick a fight with me or some of my friends, I'll advise to walk away while we can.

 

About meditation: I don't think you can win fights with this, nor am I trying to dodge bullets. It's just that, meditation - some people ride horses to meditate, others collect stamps. I run around dressed in soldier clothes and shoot my friends with airsoft rifles. And now aikido.

 

Excercise: How much excercise does aikido give you? From what I've heard, they don't focus too much on it, it's more technique heavy, compared to rigid excercise program of karate, and aikido is supposedly designed so that a weaker attacker has a chance against a stronger defender. Is that true?

 

Kiaikido? I don't think there's much focus on the Ki aspect of the club I attend, but it may come into play at a later level - I don't know, to be frank, but I'm interested in it. Do you?

 

PS: Thanks for your understanding and explaining of it.

[Homuncul]

Answer to C'jais

 

It's very heavy with techniques there, very very sophisticated. The main reason to practice so much the techniques (the same ones over and over again) is to teach your body how to teach itself. Por ejemplo, you're probably facing this problem right now. You maybe understand what your sensei says to you but you can not do it. Somethng's not right while you understand the technique. This is all about your body memory. You have to learn how to make your body cooperate with your mind.

 

Pick any technique. First you're deciding what distance and stance is needed here. Nage hits you. You look at his arm. That's where you fail. Point: you have to observe the whole situation and not concentrate on the arm. Then it goes worse: you concentrate on the arm begin a movement towards nage to make let's say ikkyo. You forget to move from the line of attack. Oops he hits you. Then okey you moved from the line of attack then you take his elbow and start pushing it, nage resists he doesn't feel anything but pain in his elbow and you're supposed to enter in to his center so unbalancing him (without harming). On my level I get stuck myself in these simple words: axis, center, flow, ki, line of attack very often. The difference is that I may be a bit better react at it. That's all. That's why you first start with simple kokyo ho, tai no henko, tai sabaki. It reminds that I first forced myself to place my foot correctly on tatami when I got 2 kyu.(imbarassing). For aikido Yoda's quote "unlearn what you have learn" sounds very familiar. Furthermore it was taken from the conception of a martial art.

 

About meditation and ki. Of course I don't feel anything at the moment. It is said to come with time and practicing and I already have seen many marvelous things to believe it's true. Some say that it always is present but you can't feel it properly nor let it flow where you want. Although there're things you can do about it. Ask someone (competencial) to tell you what you're supposed to feel when you do meditation or read books about it. Meditation is also very sophisticated. This knowledge comes only with time. You can't just sit on place where you stand and get immidiate result or learn to levitate. I myself first learn how to sit properly during it, how to breath, how to concentrate, on what to concentrate, what to feel.

 

So it comes to this: we do these techniques over and over to unlearn our body make it an ally to our mind, to teach it how move properly, how to breath, how concentrate so harmonizing our ying and yang, so letting ki flow in us and direct it to whatever place we want.

 

Excercise: How much excercise does aikido give you? From what I've heard, they don't focus too much on it, it's more technique heavy, compared to rigid excercise program of karate, and aikido is supposedly designed so that a weaker attacker has a chance against a stronger defender. Is that true?

 

Yeah sure it's designed to do that too and it is also designed for a weaker defender to deal with a stronger attacker. But in practice if not very matured (as I am) strength is everything you've got. People who say about no strength involved are either don't know much about it (journalists) or know too much (like old guys of 8,9 dan). For me it's only beneficial. I do many exercises to be fit. Streching also helps very much. If you're streched before the lesson you won't get hurt that hard, your body responds naturally, smoothly, relaxively.

 

One and simple principle (literally speaking) of aikido is working with strength of opponent. That's why ther're no blocks. There're many forces involved during the fight: moving, stopping, dissolving, curdling, pulling, releasing, joining, separating. When opponent hits you use his enertia of pushing helping him pass through you pulling him further so until he is cought in his own strength feeling little of yours directing him to a place of his defeat.

 

P.S. So what direction are you in? Although aikido is considered a martial art with no directions there're today. For me it's like a pervetry over the ideas of great master (I was writing my diploma about religious aspects of aikido and made fun of all such attempts. Then my sensei looked at me like I was a stupid monkey that knew not what it was doing). Either way there're quite many. Most common(at least in Russia) are Aikikai and Yoshinkan and Kiaikido. I'm in Aikikai and looked after by Nobuyoshi Tamura sensei 8th dan Aikido Aikikai who does not come to us very often from his France. Yoshinkan deals with different stances different accents on principles, they yell like in kendo when they move. And they don't like us, we instead don't like them. Kiaikido is more neutral. It doesnt put accent on techniques at all more concentrating on ki development. It's more like Tai dzi(don't remember the spelling).

 

P.P.S. Still can revenge justify violence?

[Homuncul]

Such emotion as revenge has a genetic adaptational origin. When prehistoric human met the situation when some of his group (close friend and a relative) was murdered he tryed to kill an attacker:

1. so guarding his friends from invaders (instinct of survival)

2. Due to his emotional altruistic attachment to his friend or relative

 

In that way instinct of revenge has much in common with altruism

 

Nowedays this is something dictated to us either by our emotions or by society we live in. For muslem revenge is something as inevitable and infinite as Allah himself. It can exist without emotional attachment.

 

The other mechanism of human mind is a presurving ability to forget and a special case of it - to forgive. If rvenege is a spontenius emotion, forgiveness is something we measure with great ration before attempting to use.

I por ejemplo can forgive simple things (like someone's calling me idiot).

 

There're things that I wouldn't ever forgive due to deep emotional link with such matters. I wouldn't forgive if someone killed my child or was involved even unintensiously in this action. I think even Jesus could lose his temper here

 

There are also things that I can forgive consciously and can not forgive unconcsiously. This is the notable property of our debate here. When we encounter with someone's opinion which contradicts with ours we somehow feel attacked and momentarily such emotion appears. We try to revenge to our attackers with our commentaries. Although we try to be rational sometimes we're too deep in our emotions (that's where most trolls come from). It's a mental fight. When emotions lay down we forget the essence our mind used to provocate revenge and we forgive and follow our familiar and rational logic.

 

In that manner we are all warriors here. And then other question comes up. Is there peace at all? Because achieving peace also demands fighting for it.

 

We also can't forgive without fighting first due to our causality principle. That also convinces that war and peace is not that black and white (the same with good and evil) and also leads to questions I'd like have answers to:

 

1. Warriors United, are we now warriors by nature or by our overwhelming choice?

2. Is idealism something we lost unintentiusly and would regret it or it was a universal necessity for our kind?