Weather: Should it affect the troops?

[AU_Skythe]

I think full weather effects is jumping the gun a bit much. Can you imagine playing your best game getting a mega good rush ready then having to turn your troops back because of a thunderstorm?? that would really suck. Although some map-specific weather patterns could be interesting, if they were more "controlled". For example you have a desert-like random map(tatooine) which has an area outside the regions of both players base (ie the middle and outer middle regions of the map). Sandstorms could occur, with a one minute 30 second advanced warning perhaps. Troopers inside this radius could suffer damage slowly like attrition in rise of nations. This could make for an interesting change to gameplay, say if it was applied to RM the way it is now you would have people rushin to get their rush across the great divide to the other players base This could be randomized of course.

 

I had an idea that you could perhaps equip sub-civs during the game. For example you have chosen the rebels, and during the game you may go into the spaceport or build a specific building and you get to choose a civ to ally with (ie malandorians ewoks gungans TF etc). You then inherit some bonuses off them (ie ewoks cheaper buildings), and some unique units and technologies perhaps.. But i just had a thought that maybe these could be map-specific, and LA could ditch and fuse random land map and star wars locale. Remove the jutter in locale ie buildings sandcrawlers etc or give them a purpose ie buildings you can capture like in red alert 2. Maybe just maybe LA could ditch random maps as well??? or custom make say 10 maps for each terrain and when that map is chosen one of the 10 sets is also chosen. Or you could even for example have a few sets of allyable civs for each map. Map-specific civilisations ie you get a tatooine map and you can have the choice to ally at some stage during the game with the hutt cartel for example, and inherit some of their units or gain access to 1 2 or 3 new buildings containing their specific units and upgrades. Its certainly a for-out idea but i think it might be able to work just like in the way that you have custom creeps in WC3 TFT but better; more interesting.

 

Or LA could work on their RLM scripting real good.. and maybe add a few of these features in..

[Admiral Vostok]

Haven't read this thread for a while, but whoever mentioned including a warning for upcoming whether (which is entirely realistic) had a good idea. This way you could plan to attack during bad weather, or postpone until the weather has passed.

 

There's a few things I'd like to point out about how I imagine weather to be:

 

The effect will be small. Although meteor showers may be one weather phenemena, they won't kill any units or een cause damage. All weather is treated equally - Blizzard (Hoth), Sandstorm (Tatooine), Monsoon (Naboo), Meteor shower (Kessel) all are exactly the same. They reduce line of sight and movement for all units (with he exception of some specialist units, which all or at least most civs would have access to).

 

There will be a warning one minute before they appear.

 

They cover the entire map.

 

They last for a random time (which will be counted-down AoM godpower style).

 

Those people who say "it will be annoying" fail to comprehend the scope of RTS games. When your workers come under attack from a predator, is this not annoying? Even running out of resources at a crucial moment is annoying. Some things are supposed to be like this to make the game interesting, rather than simply mine->build->attack->repeat. As Windu said, both Realism and Gameplay are increased by this, so why the hell not?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Yes indeed, if the effect is not too important(such as a meteor shower slaughtering your entire army) it will be quite fun to enjoy the eye candy. However, I fail to see specialist units for each and everyone weather type. Perhaps when you play a Hoth map, you could have an upgrade to transform your regular stormtroopers into snowtroopers. It will not nullify the weather effect but storms will have a slightly lower effect on those troopers. It may give you an edge against the enemy.

[Admiral Vostok]

Or (and Imperials are the best examples because they have Snowtroopers/Sandtroopers/what-have-you) the Specialist Stormtrooper could be a separate trooper unit from the standard Stormtrooper, available even on maps with no weather phenomenon. They have a greater attack and line of sight (which is the attraction of getting them on non-weathery maps), and weather only reduces their abilities by 25% as opposed to 50% for everything else.

 

I wouldn't make it so that on different terrain the Specialist Stormtrooper looks different, I'd have him look like a Snowtrooper, because they are cool looking and the most different to normal Stormies.

 

Other civs might have weather resistent units too (by weather resistent I mean only 25% loss of ability as above). Of particular note I'd say any tauntaun-mounted trooper for the Rebels, and maybe Super Battle Droids (as they have enhanced sensors). Wookiees and Gungans maybe could have a weather resistent trooper too, though the fact that Gungans would realistically be great in a monsoon but at a great disadvantage in a sandstorm makes me think otherwise for them.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I fail to see how 1 specialist trooper can really do. I mean by the time the storm is over they would have barely made it to the enemy base(depending on the size of the map). They are yet troopers and will get massacred by a larger better equipped army waiting for the small specialist band to come.

[Compa_Mighty]

I like your idea lukeiamyourdad, it would be cool to upgrade your units depending on the map.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well you're not going to send only your Specialist Snowtroopers to attack.

 

Essentially it's just another type of Trooper. If you were playing on a Hoth map, you might take some Snowtroopers in addition to the rest of your army, so that if a blizzard arrives in the middle of your attack, your Snowtroopers would have an advantage. If the blizzard doesn't show up, you've still got Troopers. I'd say they might have less armour than Stormtroopers, but probably cost about the same.

 

Remember, these Specialist Troopers won't win you the game on their own, but neither should any other type of unit. They're just an additional, characterful, true-to-the-movies trooper unit. They will be better than others in a storm, but you can't successfully seige an enemy's base using only the benefits these troopers give you.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Well what's the point in making them? They're gonna be slowed down by the rest of the army you send with you. They clearly are a waste of time. They just aren,t affected by the speed and LOS decreasing but that doesn't mean anything if you can't assault a base with them. If you need other units to help these troopers out then what's the point in making them?

[Admiral Vostok]

Their extra speed isn't the best thing about them, it is more their greater line of sight. They'll be able to shoot enemies through the storm before the enemies can see them.

 

They might not have the best tactical capabilities, but they do still have some, and the let's not forget the Snowtrooper's presence will give a more authentic Star Wars experience.

 

EDIT: Having thought about this a bit more, it is a bit messy having a different trooper. What if the basic Stormtrooper is unimpeded in weather? On snow maps the Stormtrooper might automatically appear as a Snowtrooper, like how the buildings have snow on them. This gives the Stormtrooper a bit of a bonus in weather over other troopers (even over the Clone Trooper, possibly), but is just one of the things unique to the Empire. I've been thinking of a range of these type of things for each civ, actually. So in conclusion I think the Stormtrooper shouldn't suffer effects of weather (and no other civ has a unit that can do likewise).

 

Also I think during a storm Air can't shoot Ground, and Ground can't shoot Air (except for turrets). This could create some interesting strategic situations.

[Darth Windu]

Actually i was going to suggest what you added in your edit vostok. It would be far better to just have the Imperial Stormtroopers have a greater speed and/or line-of-sight in storms.

[lukeiamyourdad]

If the StormTroopers are not affected then Rebel Troopers shouldn't(remember Echo Base troopers?) and Wookiee Troopers shouldn't too(Chewie seemed fine when we saw him on Hoth).

[Admiral Vostok]

Also remember how the Hoth Troopers' got totally beaten? Their gear can't be that good since Luke couldn't even spot a Wampa behind him.

 

As for the Wookiees, all Chewie had to do was roar at a probe droid, so that hardly counts as evidence for them being uneffcted by weather.

 

Besides I like it being a unique ability to the Empire. Perhaps the Rebel Snowspeeder is uneffected too (ie it can shoot ground units during a storm).

[saberhagen]

Maybe all troopers should automatically be able to cope with the weather where they are. Since each battle takes place on only one planet and in one climate (unless they introduce maps with different climate zones, or a mixed ground and space combat system, of course) and since troops are usually "built" in a troop centre rather than arriving from another planet (except in "lame ass" scenarios), you have to ask why they would be stupid enough to train and equip troops who couldn't cope with the local climate.

 

Of course, if weather is included in the game it would still have some effect, as no units could be totally immune to it no matter how well trained and equipped they were, but it should go without saying that troops would be able to cope with the temperatures and ground conditions they would encounter throughout the map. I think snowtroopers/sandtroopers etc should mainly be cosmetic, as it does look stupid not to have your troopers in snow gear on a snow map.

[Darth Windu]

I disagree. Having all troops do better in storms makes storms a moot point, and it makes the civs more generic. The Empire is really the only civ to be able to equip its forces for those kinds of conditions, and that should be reflected in the game.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Vostok- Hmmm...4 AT-ATs assisted by AT-STs and loads of snowtrooper...it has nothing to do with weather protection gear. I don't think Snowtroopers are equiped with Wampa detecting gear. As for Chewie I think that having fur and a keen instinct would make him less vulnerable to the harsh conditions of Hoth.

 

If snowspeeders were able to shoot ground units within a storm they would be overpowered. Perhaps having no LOS decrease sounds mroe balanced.

 

Saberhagen- Indeed it's true. But perhaps certain units should be able to specialize anyway.

 

Windu- I think the Republic, the Rebels and probably Confederacy(though not so sure) are capable of doing it.

[Admiral Vostok]

saberhagen: Yeah, what Windu said. It might not be entirely realistic, but it makes for more interesting gameplay.

 

Luke's Dad: I agree with Windu in principle, because even though those civs you mentioned probably do have some sort of weather-relevant equipment, the Empire is the only one we've seen with such a wide range of these weather-eqipped Troopers. We've seen Sandtroopers, Snowtroopers and Scouttroopers in the movies, which is more than others. The Rebels also seem to have weather-eqipped Troopers, though they don't seem as well-equipped as the Imperials, and as such I think the Imperials should be the only weather resistant Troopers.

 

However, the Rebels don't need to be totally without weather-resistance. Your idea with the Snowspeeder was better than mine - no loss of LOS or Speed - and I suggest an advanced level Trooper type called a Strike Commando based on those Troopers who fought on Endor. They would be Elite troops, perhaps equipped as a Sniper or possessing some form of Stealth/Camouflage, maybe even demolition? Anyway, I think this would be a good way to still give the Rebels strong Troopers, but also giving the unique-ness of weather-resistant basic Troopers to the Empire.

 

Maybe Jedi should also be weather-resisant? Or at least no loss of LOS.

[DK_Viceroy]

maybe0 instead0 of0 random weather storms you could have specialist troopers performing better than normal ones like snowtroopers on hoth wroking better than normal stromtropers. and so dependiong on what map the unqiue unbit of a specialist trooper could be avaible. hoth is the example you could use stromtroopers and snowtroopers the snowtroopers would get a bonues from the snow and last longer have bteer LOS and range and armour but be a little more expensive but say if you had a sandtroper they would be half effective as the strom trooper whcih would be normal trhoughout

but get a bonus on normal maps with grass.

 

Some0 Civs0 though depending on waht type of trooper they use may not be affected at all and thus not have the specialist unit like confedreacy i'd like to see droids affectdd by snow when they convered. Personally i think droid troopers should be better than organic troopers anyway but have their own vulnrabilities to say mech destrooyers.

 

Is0 This Bettr No?

[lukeiamyourdad]

This makes for an awful amount of troopers. Just a specialist is good.

 

droids should be affected by weather. sensors can be jammed, processors might freeze or overheat, etc. And except for the Super Battle Droid and the Droideka all other droid type troopers should be weak. Making vulnerable to only MDs makes them overpowered in early games.

[DK_Viceroy]

Not quite what i meant i was implying that Super Battle droids get an upgrade faster but be doubly weak against mech destroyers as well as strike mechs. Maybe there could be random weather storms to add to permenent effects like fighters could be more expenisve on Hoth because of the need to upgrade heaters.

[Admiral Vostok]

Hmm, interesting idea, but it is starting to get pretty complicated. I've come to the conclusion now that weather shouldn't effect troopers, because I was watching Attack of the Clones again the other day and in the bit where the SPHA-T's shoot down the Federation Starship, it kicks up a huge cloud of dust. The troopers fight on regardless - both Clones and Droids seem to be unaffected by the dust cloud.

 

So I've now come to the conclusion that although weather is a big part of Star Wars, it doesn't affect the troops. What I do support though is aesthetic changes like having Stormtroopers appear as Snowtroopers on Hoth or Sandtroopers on Tatooine. Perhaps a similar thing for Rebels, but that's about all.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - fighting in a cloud of dust is just a little different to fighting in, for example, a snowstorm.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Well a dust cloud implies the same LOS and movement problems as a Snowstorm would be indeed a snowtorm is more dangerous.

 

I guess Sith was right all along...

[Darth Windu]

No, it doesnt. Dust wouldnt affect movement at all, whereas a Duststorm or Snowstorm would have high winds, a larger 'shroud' and would be a lot more restrictive in terms of movement and LOS than some dust would.

[lukeiamyourdad]

yes it does restrict movement. You won't run in a dust cloud because you can't see anything or you might trip on some crap.

[Darth Windu]

Not with the advanced sensors the Clones, Droids, Stormies etc would have. However, a dust storm or snow storm would be a lot 'thicked' and be accompanied by things like high winds which WOULD hamper LOS and movement.