SkinWalker Posted June 3, 2003 Author Share Posted June 3, 2003 Originally posted by FunClown SkinWalker, I think you left out [maybe on pupose] a fifth possibility. We must keep an open mind. And that possibility is....? Originally posted by FunClown Saying there is no documentary evidence sounds good but isn't neccessarily true. So show it to me... or at least give me a reference that I can look up. I'm not being cynical (okay... maybe a little ), it's just that I've actually done a little digging. The only documented cases I find are debunkings. Originally posted by FunClown I think the discussion should focus more on how those people got healed rather than if. There's not much point in talking about how something happened if one cannot first determine whether or not it actually happened. Originally posted by FunClown ... however, there are stories where people are healed for real, still to this day. It is the latter in my view that is up to many peoples opinions. Opinion based upon superstition is dangerous. Peoples' lives are at stake. There are many stories about the Loch Ness Monster, still to this day. But the person who took the now famous photograph of "Nessie" has since recanted and claimed it was merely a photograph of his laborador retriever. In other words, even though it's been proven a hoax, people still believe. Originally posted by FunClown I highly doubt that any real agreement will be made, but it is still good to read other peoples opinions. And that is my real interest. Belief is a human trait that I am thoroughly fascinated in. It's what makes people believe and what drives their beliefs that I find interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunClown Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 Skinwalker, I would suggest looking up Google. However, it does not have to involve the subject explicitly. You could look up ESP as well. I did see a study of prayer helping a group of people as opposed to the control group and this study looked more at ESP. The evidence I have is of conversations with people who have either been healed or who have known someone who has. Thus, I guess there could be a lot more than 5 possibilities. The fifth possibility was God. A sixth could be something to do with ESP. A seventh could be whatever else to think of. A few examples doesn't really disprove a theory either. Since you would have to disprove it for all cases. I do agree that there are a lot of fakes, but there are also real cases. Homuncul, maybe the priest is one of those people to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted June 6, 2003 Author Share Posted June 6, 2003 Originally posted by FunClown The evidence I have is of conversations with people who have either been healed or who have known someone who has. No anecdotal claim -no matter how sincere, no matter how deeply felt, no matter how exemplary the lives of the attesting person(s)- carries much weight. Anecdotal accounts are subject to irreducible error... human fallibility. People want to believe. This is evident in many, many other facets of life. Thousands of people, for example, claim to have been abducted by aliens... yet there is not one shred of evidence. No hard, cold, tangible item that can say, "damn, that dude was abducted." They do believe it, though. Police procedure (in the U.S. at any rate) relies upon evidence and not anecdotes. DNA samples, fingerprints, powder burns, fibers, footprints, tire treads and gloves that used to fit. It seems odd, that the only evidence that exists for things such as faith healing is anecdote. Where is the paper submitted to the New England Journal of Medical Science that says "x number of subjects healed without use of medicine but apparently by prayer?" I saw it. I know someone who was healed. A trusting friend was there. These statements work equally well in Tarot card readings, palm readings, seances, the John Edwards show, magic tricks, UFO sightings, Big Foot sightings and sightings of Elvis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 Well SkinWalker, You say that Anecdotal accounts are caused by human fallibility, because they want to believe? Well, Science is also a human fallibility in that case, because science was created and/or enhanced by humans. People believe in carbon dating,for example, yet they have no clue how old something really is, because there is no exact proof telling the age of the object. Of course, by "Anecdotal" I assume you mean devine intervention related? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 'Faith Healing' does exist though it's called different from believings to believings. You heal with energy, that's what you do. Hopefully you deal with a good healer with positive energy who heals you and give you a feeling of confidence. This energy might be seen by sensitive persons... It's a true thing that 'Faith Healing' exists but it's not real for the world of science. This depends on the personel attitude of the scientist who says something about this. Oh...and yes there can be healings of all diseases but don't have to. A good healer wouldn't promise you cure from disease but tells you that her/his treatment might support the progress of healing. And the healer would tell you always to go to a doctor first as a main thing and take the 'faith healing' as an extra treatment. My two cents on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted June 6, 2003 Author Share Posted June 6, 2003 Originally posted by obi-wan13 Well, Science is also a human fallibility in that case, because science was created and/or enhanced by humans. People believe in carbon dating,for example, yet they have no clue how old something really is, because there is no exact proof telling the age of the object. However, the preponderance of evidence is in favor of carbon dating (which is but one of many, many dating methods and by no means the most appropriate in many circumstances) which is only disputed by psuedoscientific claims. These claims are often touted by "creationists" who attempt to demonstrate the fallibility of science. True, science is fallible, but within expected limitations. Science is bounded by rules. Belief isn't. Carbon dating isn't some supernatural notion to be believed in. It is a method by which the age of an object can be judged. The margin for error in radiocarbon dating methods can be as high as several hundred years, but this is acceptable when determining a date, since this range can then be compared to other methods, such as tree ring dating. Even using a date range that's 150 to 350 years wide, very useful information can be gained from radiocarbon dating. It is cold, hard data. Humans are fallible in their beliefs because we are easily influenced by many, many outside conditions. Hallucinations are even a very real problem as it is medically proven that they can occur during times of physical and mental stress. This was even a method of introspection for cultures such as Native Americans who used the vision quest as a means to determine destinies and as rites of passage to manhood. Originally posted by obi-wan13 Of course, by "Anecdotal" I assume you mean devine intervention related? I mean word of mouth or a "telling" by someone of an event. The common meaning. Supernatural events, divine or otherwise, always hinge on anecdotal account or evidence that can have more than one source (such as crop circles, Big Foot's footprint, bodily scars, etc.). Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted June 6, 2003 Author Share Posted June 6, 2003 Originally posted by Wanderer You heal with energy, that's what you do. Hopefully you deal with a good healer with positive energy who heals you and give you a feeling of confidence. And this energy is.... ? Define it. Quantify it. Originally posted by Wanderer This energy might be seen by sensitive persons... Poppycock. Prove it. That seems rude, but you are allowing yourself to be duped by new age baloney. Originally posted by Wanderer My two cents on that. Not even worth that much.... again, I'm comming across as rude, but there is absolutely no evidence to support any of it. Not one case of someone with a documented, organic disease or ailment that participated in some cure that involved some mystical energy that cannot be quantified nor verified, and was later without the disease. If you can provide the evidence, I can make us both a lot of money in book royalties. Cheers to you too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff38 Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 There are many systems humans have used for thousands of years to combat pain and illness. Acupuncture once thought to around 3 thousand years old is now believed to be as old as 5 to 7 thousand years old. I saw a double blind test on the PBS program Scientific American recently that absolutely proved Chiropractice is completely fake. Yet Chiropractice is a multi billion dollar industry around the world. Many of these systems actually do some good though. But never for the reasons sighted. For example: Chiropractice claims to be able to realign body parts to allow the body to function properly. Acupuncture and acupressure claim to interact with "meridians" in the body and allow systems to return to normal. Total BS. What happens is the bodies own Immune system and pain management systems are stimulated. There are countless placebos out there like faith healing, psychic surgery, chiropractice, acupuncture & pressure, magnets etc etc... that CAN stimulate the bodies own ability to improve health ever so slightly. I personally use Chakra stimualtion exercises. Not because I believe in the Mystical energy of the Chakras but because it is an excellent cardiovascular work out. The reasons sighted by the system are wrong but the results are right. On the same program mentioned above an example was sighted of a man from Nigeria who was taken to a hospital in New York because he thought he was dying from an evil curse. He truely believed he had been cursed and was going to die. His body was shutting down and he actually was dying. Out of desperation a creative doctor told the man they would perform a special secret ritual to remove the curse. They burned candles and dance around his bed and did some incantation. And over the next several days his undiagnosable illness began to go away. Did the Harvard trained doctor cure him with a faith ritual? Or did he trick the mans own body & mind into healing itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Faith healing could be real, you can't deny that no matter how you try, because there is no evidence against it. I don't beleive in it, I think it's BS, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen. The "faith" part of faith healing is the most important. These people believe that they will be healed. Perhaps this reduces stress or something and frees up the body to work on the problem. It could also be that these people are consciously controlling parts of the mind that would normally be handled subconsciously. I want you to consciously think about a hamburger. A big thick one with lot's of mustard and tomatoes. You mouth has begun to moisten, no doubt. This may seem simple, but what if you could somehow apply similar principles to, say, that tumor in your liver? What if you could tell your body, "hey, that tumor is bad for me, get rid of it" and it worked? I don't believe that it would, based on the evidence, but I can't remove that possiblity from the equation just yet... A good portion of the brain is thought to be inactive, or someting like that. What if it isn't? What if that 90% of the brain is devoted to processes that we don't yet understand? Like ESP, etc.? Just because you can't see your nose with your eyes shut, doesn't mean that it isn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by griff38 There are countless placebos out there like faith healing, psychic surgery, chiropractice, acupuncture & pressure, magnets etc etc... I thought acupunture worked by stimulating nerves and making them release chemicals in other parts of the body. As for chiropractice, your muscles can tense and go into "micro-cramps" (sometimes a nerve gets stuck as well) - it's very possible to get them to relax by massaging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by Solbe M'ko Faith healing could be real, you can't deny that no matter how you try, because there is no evidence against it. I don't beleive in it, I think it's BS, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen. On the contrary, the way it works is for the people who believe in faith healing to actualize their statements into something solid that won't require a lack of rational thought to understand. In other words: They dish up the evidence, and then we can get to work on disproving or accepting it. Until there's no evidence, we must logically conclude it doesn't exist, and as such we can't be bothered assuming or considering it does. You don't go around believing monsters to be hiding below your bed, do you? They could still be there though, right? Does that mean we must take into account every nutcase conspiracy and feverish monstrosity from all around the world when examining actual problems? No, it does not. I want you to consciously think about a hamburger. A big thick one with lot's of mustard and tomatoes. You mouth has begun to moisten, no doubt. This may seem simple, but what if you could somehow apply similar principles to, say, that tumor in your liver? What if you could tell your body, "hey, that tumor is bad for me, get rid of it" and it worked? I don't believe that it would, based on the evidence, but I can't remove that possiblity from the equation just yet... Good analogy, and I agree that this is probably also how and why faith healing really works. A good portion of the brain is thought to be inactive, or someting like that. What if it isn't? Going by what credible sources I have, I must say that this is a myth. We're always using the brain to its optimal capacity in a current situation - only problem is that a given part of the brain handles different tasks (sight in the back, basic processes like hunger, body circuitry and sexuality in the inner center etc). In short, there's very little space left for unexplained processes, and it'd also be completely illogical to evolve ESP etc, when there's been no need of them to survive and no points in evolutionary history where it might have given us an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solbe M'ko Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Well, ESP could help me out quite a bit to survive, but I'll trust your sources anyway. As to believing in monsters under the bed, well... There are. There are microscopic germs and so on, so something could come from under the bed and kill me in my sleep. Not bloody likely! However, just because something is extremely unlikely given our current knowledge, doesn't mean it is impossible. People thought we could never fly a heavier than air machine, but we did (*goes on in "Final Frontier" style rant*). It is backward to say that something can't happen, because you could very well be wrong. If you condemn something because of a lack of evidence, you have a much greater margin of error than if you have evidence against it. Still, you're right, faith healing is bunk. I know this is a contradiction to what I just said, but still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunClown Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Recently, I saw a documentary about using hemp for medicinal purposes. It trialed people for so much time using three different levels of hemp in a spray form. Each sample had either no hemp (the control), a small dose, and a larger dose. Most had beneficial results with the larger. However, there was one woman I remember who had the best results with using none. She said she had never been able to get on a horse let alone ride a horse for I think it was 10-20 years. Hence, the womans mind seemed to have a very large effect. Is that illogical? However, with people being healed, I think the evidence would be self evident. Ie. if someone is healed, they are healed. Whether it was from a placebo or not is another question. However, if it is from placebo then perhaps studies into this phenomenom could be conducted. Thus, there was evidence of the woman being healed (riding a horse) but not exactly in the way you would expect or maybe even want. Speaking personally, when I take parecetemol for a head ache it seems to take it away almost instantaneously. Over the years I have kind of attributed this to a placebo effect. Since a few times I thought I had taken some paracetemol and my headache went but really I hadn't taken anything. In regards to ESP, I have dreamt stuff and seen visions that have had a stark resemblence to reality both in a literal and a figurative sense. However, I have found most occur with an event taking place at the same time, at a different place, while I am dreaming or awake I will have some thought pop in my head. It is more rare to see a future event however, I have had one where I was given two choices and I saw one. The next day, I was given that choice and I took the other that I didn't see the result of in my dream. It was weird since it had people in it that I had never seen nor met and looked exactly the same in the dream as in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 Originally posted by FunClown ... with people being healed, I think the evidence would be self evident. Ie. if someone is healed, they are healed. Whether it was from a placebo or not is another question. The spontaneous remission rate in cancer (Ader & Cohen, 1993) is estimated to be between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 100,000. If only about 5% of those who went to faith healers or places like Lourdes, France (where millions of people have come in hopes of being cured... there's a place in South America as well), there should be between 50 and 500 "miraculous" cures at Lourdes alone. However, the catholic church has rejected the authenticity of all but 65 cures. Only three of them for cancer. It would seem, therefore, that "faith" heals less than chance. If you're one of the 65 cures, however, it would be hard to convince you that the visit itself didn't cause the remission of the disease. Originally posted by FunClown However, if it is from placebo then perhaps studies into this phenomenom could be conducted. They are. See Deyn & D'Hooge. Cited References Ader, R., and N. Cohen. 1993. Psychoneuroimmunology: Conditioning and stress. Annual Review of Psychology 44: 53-85. Deyn, P. P. D., D'Hooge, R. 1996. Placebos in clinical practice and research. Journal of Medical Ethics Vol. 22 Issue 3, p140, 7p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff38 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Originally posted by SkinWalker The spontaneous remission rate in cancer (Ader & Cohen, 1993) is estimated to be between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 100,000. If only about 5% of those who went to faith healers or places like Lourdes, France (where millions of people have come in hopes of being cured... there's a place in South America as well), there should be between 50 and 500 "miraculous" cures at Lourdes alone. However, the catholic church has rejected the authenticity of all but 65 cures. Only three of them for cancer. It would seem, therefore, that "faith" heals less than chance. If you're one of the 65 cures, however, it would be hard to convince you that the visit itself didn't cause the remission of the disease. They are. See Deyn & D'Hooge. Cited References Ader, R., and N. Cohen. 1993. Psychoneuroimmunology: Conditioning and stress. Annual Review of Psychology 44: 53-85. Deyn, P. P. D., D'Hooge, R. 1996. Placebos in clinical practice and research. Journal of Medical Ethics Vol. 22 Issue 3, p140, 7p Another important factor is the diagnoses for those cured by faith healing methods, have rarely if ever been documented before the "cure". Many were never seriously sick to begin with. The woman who was able to ride the horse again is a good example. It was all in her brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Skinwalker: You are missing out a fifth possible explanation: Mass psychosis. We had a very bad case in the Scandinavian countries, where people were accused of crimes that they had never committed, because people started ’remembering’ things that had never happened, and could certainly not have happened. On a similiar note, during the witch-hunts of Northern Europe, some people started confessing to witchcraft that they knew themselves that they were innocent of, for the simple(minded) reason that they wanted to get burned in order to get purified. Faith creates strange behavior in people… Originally posted by FunClown The evidence I have is of conversations with people who have either been healed or who have known someone who has. One anecdote is worth nothing. Ten anecdotes are worth as much as one. And a hundred is worth as much as ten. In the words of Shermer, Skeptic of Scientific American. Originally posted by FunClown A few examples doesn't really disprove a theory either. Depends on the theory. Such broad dismissals of theories as that one tend to be engineered to suit the specific needs of the current debate. Well, Science is also a human fallibility in that case, because science was created and/or enhanced by humans. People believe in carbon dating,for example, yet they have no clue how old something really is, because there is no exact proof telling the age of the object. This echoes the proposal of a psychologist, that all perception was based solely on the point of view of the observer. This forced a scientist from a real field of science to submit a paper full of fine-phrased nonsense to a psychology journal... Which went on to get published... So much for the 'science' in psychology. I personally wonder how many of those cancer patients were miss-diagnosed. I mean, once it reads ‘terminal cancer’, you aren’t likely to go to the doc every 14 days to check up. And even the best scanners have margins of error that significantly influence the chance of them being right, when they diagnose ‘terminal’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homuncul Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 FunClown: Homuncul, maybe the priest is one of those people too? Donno, didn't notice but now I remember that he was freaky. But I blame it on the atmosphere he has to work in. Not easy ya know to save people possessed by demons. I remember the only time I was possessed by one when my mommy gave birth to my brother. I knew it was very bad for her part. Regarding faith healing I think all types of observations concerning this subject and similar subjects can be generalized in a scientifically prefered sentence: "human being is still a mystery". Personally I believe that all this faith healing, Acupuncture healing, Ki healing are one in definition that this "sacred" energy that humans emmit (I prefer thinking of Ki) and can not be implicitly measured is common attribute of conscious mind. It's just we yet have no appropriate technology to measure it. Still I remember an article discribing how scientists tryed to locate this energy in Ki healers and they noticed that on some electromagnetic frequencies at least 20/40 ki healers emitted while healing, 10 times as intense as normal people do. So you see it's also 50-50 that these are no fakers and devices for measurements don't lie about the rays. The other aspect of it is which way a man goes to become a such a healer. I'd much rather be a ki healer than a commonly understood faith healer because of their world view preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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