lukeskywalker1 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 The essence of my question is not whether God, as a parentlike figure, should punish people for thier transgressions; the essence of my question is this: Do you really agree that anyone, nomatter what their crime(s), should suffer eternal torment? Emphasis on eternal. And yes, you can argue people condemn themselves, but God created us and he allows for Hell....He never asked us, only commanded. Furthermore, we're back at choices, which I do not believe in. I know what your question ment, i was explaining why things happen, why God would send a person to Hell. Anyways, your question was: How can you condone a god, who condemns people to eternal torment for transgressing against its rules? I got to apoligize, I explained why, and i do agree with his reasoning for sending somone to Hell. Cause after thinking more about it, God doesnt condone it (does a Mother want to punish her children?) He 'allows' it. I mean, you sin, he lets you, does that mean he condones it? Is he responsible for you breaking the rules? I dont want someone to go to hell...even though they might deserve it, but i understand and agree with the reason why they should. The bible tells you: John 3:16-21- "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. People who believe in God's Son are not to be judged guilty. Those who do not believe have already been judged guilty, because they have not believed in God's one and only Son. They are judged by this fact: The Light has come into the world, but they did not want light. They wanted darkness, because they were doing evil things. All who do evil hate the light and will not come to the light, because it will show all the evil things they do. But those who who follow the true way come to the light, and it shows that the things they do were done through God." (yeah, i use these verses a whole lot) It says in there God loved the whole world... he loved it so much he sent his son to die for me, you, everyone on this forum, and everyone on earth. So your question is messed up, because, God doesnt condone it. You said do i condone a god who condones that.... then after really thinking on it, no i dont, because my God doesnt condone it. You dont believe in choices? Didnt you choose to turn your computer on today? To come here and post about what i said. I didnt make you, no one made you. What you describe as Paradise and Peace sounds to me like a stagnant eternity that can lead to either balanced enlightenment or total insanity....If I reached either state I wouldn't care if evil people destroyed it for Hell would no longer matter to me, nor Heaven. You cant say that because you havnt become insane, or balanced enlightenment. And you havnt been to heaven, or have any idea of the power God has, and the many wonders he has for us. So you cant say that any of that will even happen. Basically if you strip away all the religions BS they all basically agree that there are a set of rules God/Gods have set us to live by. Those are dont kill others, dont steal, dont hankie panky with others partners and respect others. Thats the basic philosophy underlying just about all religions. *Getting to my point* Now in our modern civilisation we have laws or rules that are similar. Why do we have them so we can live together civilly. Those who disregard these basic laws "dont kill others, dont steal, dont hankie panky with others partners and respect others" do not care about other people or other lifeforms. In my books these people are plain evil. That is what God or the Gods' rules are there for too. So what? Have you ever copied a CD not for back up pourpuses? Thats stealing from the people who made the CD. Downloaded software that isnt supposed to be free? also stealing. Wanted to have sex with a woman, and maybe your married? Thats adultery, according to the bible. Lied? well.. thats lying. So just by a few little examples, you could be a liar, adulterer, and theif. Youve broken the laws, so by your classification of evil people you are one of them. There are many laws, and your saying if you break one your an evil person. Who hasnt broken one biblical, or a human law? Dont say Christ cause i know that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 I got to apoligize, I explained why, and i do agree with his reasoning for sending somone to Hell. Cause after thinking more about it, God doesnt condone it (does a Mother want to punish her children?) He 'allows' it. I mean, you sin, he lets you, does that mean he condones it? Is he responsible for you breaking the rules? I dont want someone to go to hell...even though they might deserve it, but i understand and agree with the reason why they should The question of responsibility is irrelevant to the question, but since you claim to understand and agree to the reasoning behind the condemning of people to eternal torment, then you are in truth a radical sadist beyond pardon. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 It says in there God loved the whole world... he loved it so much he sent his son to die for me, you, everyone on this forum, and everyone on earth. So your question is messed up, because, God doesnt condone it. You said do i condone a god who condones that.... then after really thinking on it, no i dont, because my God doesnt condone it. I never asked if God condones it, I asked if you condone a god that creates beings and allows the eternal torment of them if they transgress against his commands, even in the slightest. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 You cant say that because you havnt become insane, or balanced enlightenment. And you havnt been to heaven, or have any idea of the power God has, and the many wonders he has for us. So you cant say that any of that will even happen. By that rationale how can you claim any truth to the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 The question of responsibility is irrelevant to the question, but since you claim to understand and agree to the reasoning behind the condemning of people to eternal torment, then you are in truth a radical sadist beyond pardon. lol my meaning is, i understand that when someone kills someone else, that they go to jail, or get the death sentence, i understand why, that doesnt mean i like it. Like in my example, does a mother LIKE to punish her children? i doubt it. But they understand why it must be done. So i accept it, but i dont have to like it Isnt it justice (in any law system) to punish people for there wronge acts? I never asked if God condones it, I asked if you condone a god that creates beings and allows the eternal torment of them if they transgress against his commands, even in the slightest. Im saying God doesnt condone it, and im explaining why it happens, read the bible verses i posted... By that rationale how can you claim any truth to the Bible? What, im not talking about myself, (except for the question you asked) im talking about you. Youve never experienced that, so how can you know how it would feel? Youve never been to heaven, so how would you know that you would go insane? you dont, you dont know any thing about heaven, because you havnt experienced it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 lol my meaning is, i understand that when someone kills someone else, that they go to jail, or get the death sentence, i understand why, that doesnt mean i like it. Like in my example, does a mother LIKE to punish her children? i doubt it. But they understand why it must be done. So i accept it, but i dont have to like it Isnt it justice (in any law system) to punish people for there wronge acts? Are you simply keeping yourself blind form the essence of my question: Eternity? Very well, please state the smallest crime against God that deserves eternal torment. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Im saying God doesnt condone it, and im explaining why it happens, read the bible verses i posted... Once again, I'm not asking you if God condones it! Now, please read the question once again, carefully, and answer. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 What, im not talking about myself, (except for the question you asked) im talking about you. Youve never experienced that, so how can you know how it would feel? Youve never been to heaven, so how would you know that you would go insane? you dont, you dont know any thing about heaven, because you havnt experienced it Yet again, you entirely miss the point of what I'm saying. By the rationale, that I cannot know Heaven for I have not experienced it, can you put any faith in the events of the Bible, of which you have experienced none? You yourself, you, are using arguments against me that are of a nature that ought to negate your convictions if turned on yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Are you simply keeping yourself blind form the essence of my question: Eternity? Very well, please state the smallest crime against God that deserves eternal torment. I understand eternity very well. The answere is, stepping on an ant, swatting a fly (its killing isnt it?) a white lie, hitting someone. One thing you dont understand is all sin is equal in Gods eyes, we as humans like to measure things dont we? I can kill 10 million people, you can lie one time, its all the same. Why? Because all sin is evil. Once again, I'm not asking you if God condones it! Now, please read the question once again, carefully, and answer. Alright heres your question: How can you condone a god, who condemns people to eternal torment for transgressing against its rules? My answere- I do not condone a god who condemns people to eternal torment for trangessing against its rules. I do condone a God who allows people to choose whether they want eternal torment, or eternal peace. Anyone want something free? I mean who doesnt? Right now, its almost impossible to find something free right? I find this really amazing, over 5 billion people are turning this free gift! Better yet, who wants to be set free? Your gift, forgivness, eternal life with God. Freedom? Being set free from sin. Its sin that controls people, why do you think that people will be sent to Hell? They have a chance right NOW! You do, and everyone reading it. Hey so what you, youve turned God down multple times, hes willing to forgive you, if you will let him. I really find it strange, that drunks, drug addicts, murderes, the worste of the worste can except God, but normal every day people cant. I can condone a God who is willing to let his son die for me, so i dont have to burn in Hell but have eternal life. I can condone a God who will be willing to forgive people no matter what. There was a slave trader, maybe in the 1500-1800s (not sure when) A slave trader (yeah its a true story, and theres proof of it) he sold people, possibly ruined hundreds of peoples lives, why? to get money of course. But God set him straight, he became a christian. If God can love a slave trader, he can love you. i dont know what happend to change him, but it must of been something special. Anyways, the proof is he wrote the song Amazing Grace. I can condone a God who will do that. Yet again, you entirely miss the point of what I'm saying. By the rationale, that I cannot know Heaven for I have not experienced it, can you put any faith in the events of the Bible, of which you have experienced none? You yourself, you, are using arguments against me that are of a nature that ought to negate your convictions if turned on yourself. Your wrong, i have experienced something from the bible, the gift of salvation. Thats why christians dont give up. Why do we believe so much? We have experienced receiving God's helper, the Holy Spirit. I doubt you will even take it seriously. You dont understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 I understand eternity very well. The answere is, stepping on an ant, swatting a fly (its killing isnt it?) a white lie, hitting someone. One thing you dont understand is all sin is equal in Gods eyes, we as humans like to measure things dont we? I can kill 10 million people, you can lie one time, its all the same. Why? Because all sin is evil. Then you indeed are lost to reason. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Your wrong, i have experienced something from the bible, the gift of salvation. Thats why christians dont give up. Why do we believe so much? We have experienced receiving God's helper, the Holy Spirit. I doubt you will even take it seriously. You dont understand. No, what you experienced was a self-induced high due to your self-delusion. ----- And thus, lukeskywalker1, you have adequately confirmed my oppinions of hypocritical Christians. Therefor you will be ignored by me henceforth, for there simply is no reasoning with you and your ilk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Siraious Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Lukeskywalker1 :s your post confused me. Was it an personal attack on me? Because I felt it was slightly. So what? Have you ever copied a CD not for back up pourpuses? Thats stealing from the people who made the CD. Downloaded software that isnt supposed to be free? also stealing. Ummm... you are allowed to back up your OWN CDs! Some software is freeware/shareware so again its not illegal, Yes I know that non-shareware is illegal to d/l. Wanted to have sex with a woman, and maybe your married? Thats adultery, according to the bible. Ummm... there is no excuse in my books if you marry someone you stick with them for life and be faithful to them. If you dont wish to get a divorse! Lied? well.. thats lying. Well sometimes lies are need to protect lives, etc... I think with that commandment some common sence is need, to take it illterally would mean that regardless of if a lie saved lives, or went to help the greater good we would be sinning. So just by a few little examples, you could be a liar, adulterer, and theif. Youve broken the laws, so by your classification of evil people you are one of them. There are many laws, and your saying if you break one your an evil person. Who hasnt broken one biblical, or a human law? Dont say Christ cause i know that I guess i need to fully explain things in here *sighs* Ok this is what I said: Those who disregard these basic laws "dont kill others, dont steal, dont hankie panky with others partners and respect others" do not care about other people or other lifeforms. In my books these people are plain evil I meant people whose disregard life and society. God's or the Gods' or Nature's Laws are to guide us how to live to reach the afterlife/enlightenment/transendancy/become one with the Universe. Yes throughout life events WILL lead us to break the rules. Whether or not we are doing so for good or evil is important. I suppose then when you are Judged it is also based on your intent as well as your actions. *No one (humans) is beyond sin and nor do I claim that anyone could be* The types of people I was thinking of were: Murders who had the intent to like someone other than to preverve life (of course there is exceptions to this too!) Professional Thieves Curel Dictators, etc, etc... Originally posted byJubatus What you describe as Paradise and Peace sounds to me like a stagnant eternity that can lead to either balanced enlightenment or total insanity....If I reached either state I wouldn't care if evil people destroyed it for Hell would no longer matter to me, nor Heaven. Well I assume that death will bring you to enlightenment as you become one with the Universe. From my experiences you can not have too much peace. But I could be wrong hey I'm only one little thinker in a Universe full of thinkers. Good point about it not mattering. If you transend it wouldnt matter because you have become part of the universe and know how things work, how things are meant to be, you would be able to influence it and more importantly you will be beyond good or evil or would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Siraious Well I assume that death will bring you to enlightenment as you become one with the Universe. From my experiences you can not have too much peace. But I could be wrong hey I'm only one little thinker in a Universe full of thinkers. Good point about it not mattering. If you transend it wouldnt matter because you have become part of the universe and know how things work, how things are meant to be, you would be able to influence it and more importantly you will be beyond good or evil or would you? If you were to become one with the Universe upon dying then you'd have reached enlightenment and would therefor be at peace, content. In this state good and evil cannot be applied to you nor do you apply them to anything....How others perceive you, that's their matter. An enlightened being cannot be trapped by the torment of Hell nor the Bliss of Heaven; he is beyond those petty things. So, I'm agreeing with you...just elaborating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 And thus, lukeskywalker1, you have adequately confirmed my oppinions of hypocritical Christians. Therefor you will be ignored by me henceforth, for there simply is no reasoning with you and your ilk. Lukeskywalker1 :s your post confused me. Was it an personal attack on me? Because I felt it was slightly. Sorry, it wasnt a personal attack, i was susing it as an example... i didnt say WERE those things, just something to think about. Well sometimes lies are need to protect lives, etc... I think with that commandment some common sence is need, to take it illterally would mean that regardless of if a lie saved lives, or went to help the greater good we would be sinning. Im sure God would understand. Ummm... you are allowed to back up your OWN CDs! i know that, i said have you ever copied a CD NOT for back up pourposes I meant people whose disregard life and society. God's or the Gods' or Nature's Laws are to guide us how to live to reach the afterlife/enlightenment/transendancy/become one with the Universe. Yes throughout life events WILL lead us to break the rules. Whether or not we are doing so for good or evil is important. I suppose then when you are Judged it is also based on your intent as well as your actions. *No one (humans) is beyond sin and nor do I claim that anyone could be* The types of people I was thinking of were: Murders who had the intent to like someone other than to preverve life (of course there is exceptions to this too!) Professional Thieves Curel Dictators, etc, etc... alright, i c your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joetheeskimo Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 To go to heaven, you have to believe and have faith in god. To reply to Luc Solar's first post, we don't believe with our own strength. God gives us everything: our faith, our salvation, our forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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