The role of Mechs

[lukeiamyourdad]

Since Vostok is doing the role of aircraft, I thought I would do the role of mechs.

 

Mechs are the backbone of an army but in SWGB1 we saw mechs being the dominant ground force for many many civs(confed, imps, trade fed, gungans, naboo). Should mechs become infantry support vehicles? or should they still have the role of the main ground force?

 

Thoughts?

[pbguy1211]

mechs, especially strike mechs, should not be as fast. they are way too dominant in swgb if used correctly. but they can be countered if done properly (loads of mounties).

[Compa_Mighty]

I don't think every civ should have mechs.

 

Mechs should be the Imperial and Confederacy's armies backbone.

 

But infantry should be the Gungan or Wookiee army backbone.

 

Let's say, Mechs for Empire, Confederacy. No mechs for the rest.

 

Same goes for some other types of units. Heavy weapons for gungans, but not for the Empire.

[pbguy1211]

Well... the Empire HAS to have a lot of troops... though maybe not the best. But by far the most. Rebels shouldnt have many mechs, but tons of air.

 

Maybe in the next game even COMBINE the Gungans and the Naboo. Since the Naboo basically have no army other than fighters.

[Darth Windu]

Well the role of mechs in SWGB2 should be to assist infantry, break enemy lines, and attack enemy bases.

One way though to prevent mechs being dominant is that i have mechs in my idea cut into 4 categories, light (AT-PT), medium (AT-ST), heavy (AT-AT) and very heavy (SPHA-T).

These categories all take up different numbers of pop slots, so that, for example, you can have either 8 Stormtroopers or 1 AT-AT. Also, mechs should be more vulnerable to rocket infantry and bombers.

[Admiral Vostok]

That's a decent idea, Windu. I think multiple-population costs are a necessity. This will diminish the dominance of Mechs in the game, making Troopers more numerous in armies - just how it should be.

 

I'd also suggest combining what are currently Mechs and Heavy Weapons into a single category, called War Machines, or just call them all Mechs.

 

And pbguy1211, what do you call all those rows and rows of troopers on parade when the Jedi Council arrived at the end of The Phantom Menace? The Naboo does have an army, and as such combining Gungans and Naboo is so wrong - besides they fight in totally different ways, so having them together would be unrealistic. They are natural allies but having them combine into one "civ" is not representative of how they actually would fight together.

[saberhagen]

Also, if they had the strengths and weaknesses as they do now, a combined naboo/gungan civ would be far too powerful because they would be strong in every kind of unit and have virtually no wekanesses.

[Darth Windu]

Actually, funnily enough, in my current idea i have-

- combined mechs and heavy weapons into 'mechs'

- combined Gungans and Royal Naboo

 

There are a few reasons for the combining of the Royal Naboo and Gungans into the Naboo, these include

- Royal Naboo have aircraft, no navy

- Gungans have navy, no aircraft

- Each have only 50% of the number of mechs they should have

 

Plus, we see at the end of ep1 they are starting to work together, then in ep2 we see that Naboo is represented by a Royal Naboo and a Gungan respresentative.

[lukeiamyourdad]

And therefore we see the Trade Fed with the confed and we should combine them together of course. pfff...

 

The same reasons you've kept the Trade Federation a separate civ from the Confederacy applies for the Naboo and the Gungan.

[pbguy1211]

okay liayd... i get it. for gameplay reasons i agree... otherwise there'd be no game. empire would basically be the republic, and cis and tf would merge and there'd be nothing to chose from.

 

i still think the strike mechs need to be a LOT slower... you can mass a bunch of them and do a lot of damage on workers and they're too fast to do anything to in most cases... MDs are too slow to counter them.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu, as I already said, combining Naboo and Gungans will do them a great injustice. The Gungans specialise in large-scale battles, using their shield technology to fight in a very defensive maner. This is of course the complete opposite of the Naboo, who use infiltration and speed as their primary modes of attack. The Gungans rely on a solid mass of mediocre troops, whereas the Naboo use small gripus of well-trained, elite units.

 

Combining the two will eliminate each civ's weaknesses, and therefore result in not only a civ that doesn't resemble the movies, but somewhat of an uber-civ, with no weaknesses at all.

 

Anone can see this is so wrong. Windu, if you really are the Purist you claim to be, you will not commit this apalling act of ignorance.

[pbguy1211]

if they make crusaders again, and god i hope they dont, please make them useful??? royal crusaders SUCK in this game! Period! What exactly are they good against?

[paulzeromi]

Well, i think that using mechs totally as a main attack force is not the most accurate usage, because in the movies (original trilogy) we mainly saw mech used as a secondary, or never at all.... I think that mechs should be used as more of a support unit for ground troops

[pbguy1211]

then how about making them a lot more expensive...

[Darth Windu]

My reason for combing Gungans and Royal Naboo -

1. no forced units

2. Gungans had 100% infantry, 100% ships, 0% aircraft, 50% mechs they needed

3. Royal Naboo had 100% infantry, 0% ships, 100% aircraft, 50% mechs they needed

4. Gungans and Royal Naboo work together after ep1

5. Naboo represented in senate by both races

6. Gungans used in main infantry role

7. Royal Naboo infantry in specialist roles (ie Commander, Sniper)

8. created space for new Hutt Cartel civ

[lukeiamyourdad]

You don't understand how powerful it will make them.

 

-Naboo Air Force is extremely strong

-Naboo Mechs + Gungan Heavies and mechs gives them fast speedy mechs and slow and heavy mechs

-Gungan Troopers are supposed to be weak and massed up easily while Naboo troopers are elite. It would be like combining the Trade Fed Infantry with the Rebel or Wookiee Infantry.

-As for Navy the Gungan Navy is supposed to be the strongest. Combine with strong Air Force there is no way to beat them on sea maps.

 

As saberhagen pointed out, they will virtually have no weaknesses.

[Admiral Vostok]

My reason for combing Gungans and Royal Naboo -

1. no forced units

2. Gungans had 100% infantry, 100% ships, 0% aircraft, 50% mechs they needed

3. Royal Naboo had 100% infantry, 0% ships, 100% aircraft, 50% mechs they needed

4. Gungans and Royal Naboo work together after ep1

5. Naboo represented in senate by both races

6. Gungans used in main infantry role

7. Royal Naboo infantry in specialist roles (ie Commander, Sniper)

8. created space for new Hutt Cartel civ

1. There doesn't have to be forced units with the separated either, as long as they are balanced correctly.

2. No, they were fine.

3. They were fine too.

4. So what about before and during Episode 1? The Republic also becomes the Empire, but we aren't about to combine those civs.

5. This goes against your argument. If they were represented only one race, then you can argue they are together. The fact that they need both a Human and a Gungan representative shows they are separate civs.

6 + 7. -

8. Well I've expresed elsewhere the Hutt Cartel is unnecessary.

 

Please explain where exactly is the weak point of your uber civ? They have good Troops (both Naboo and Gungans together would create great flexibility), excellent Mechs (the Naboo's small, speedy Mechs with the Gungan huge, lumbering Mechs), excellent Ships (from Gungans alone), excellent Air (from Naboo alone), and good Jedi (Naboo again). This is far better than any other civ, and as such cannot be done.

[pbguy1211]

naboo had 0% ships? i suggest you play again...

[Darth Windu]

uh...you guys kinda missed the point here.

 

Vostok-

2/3. - what i meant was looking at the movie, and then creating a civ out of that, the situation was as i pointed out.

 

5. Actually, it reinforces my point. Instead of being represented by only the Royal Naboo, Naboo is now represented by a joint delegation of Gungans and Royal Naboo, hence they must be working together.

 

8. I'd like the Hutt Cartel and think it is a good idea

 

luke-

1. true, but it isnt as strong as in SWGB, but the N-1 is more versitile

 

2. Sort of. It actually ends up with them having fast, light mechs along with Gungan shields and artillery which are basically infantry support, not stand-alone mechs

 

3. Point being? You can mass your Gungan infantry and have 'elite' Royal Naboo snipers to help them out, although in smaller numbers.

 

4. They do have the strongest navy, but the Naboo would definately not have the strongest Air Force.

 

 

PS: If any of you want to see exactly what i have in mind, send my a Private message and i'll send out a copy of my latest 19 page idea to you

[lukeiamyourdad]

1. Indeed.

 

2-3. It seems we decided that mechs should be infantry support. Having both speedy mechs and heavies(perhaps strongest heavies in the game) makes them far too powerful. We can see with the current trade fed that already having strong mechs and heavies could make you win easily a battle. Now you've given them perhaps the best infantry force in the game, a mix of numerous units frontal assault units with sneek around elites.

 

4. Your point is incorrect. The gungan Navy could be beaten because most other civs had better air then them. Now only the rebels(and possibly wookiees) have a slight chance of beating them on sea maps. In GB1, all the ships are basically the same and I never saw the gungan navy' real strength. However, in GB2, gungan navy MUST be obviously stronger(without being uber strong). Combining massive navy power with a stronger the average air makes them totally unbeateable on sea maps.

[Darth Windu]

2/3. This is different. AT-AT's, AT-TE's etc are stand-alone mechs in that they can fight battles withough infantry support, although thats pretty stupid. The Naboo mechs, however, are as follows-

1. Flash speeder - small, cheap, lightly armed and armoured anti-infantry mechs

2. Gian Speeder - larger, better armed and armoured than flash but more expensive and slower, similar to AT-ST

3. Gungan artillery - short-ranged, wide area-of-effect artillery, best against large groups of infantry

4. Fambaa Shield Generator - it generats a shield, is expensive, has no weapons and slow but very strong

 

4. I never said the Naboo airforce was better than average. The strength of the Naboo will be the Gungan navy, with the Royal Naboo airforce making a good contribution. However, the Naboo are one of the airforce's withough a bomber, both to make sure the civ isnt overpowered and because it wouldnt fit with a 'security' force.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Does it matter then they don't have a bomber? They won't be able to pass such a barrage of fast and strong shielded fighters and massive navy. Think about the imps or the confeds. They have a lousy air force and a lousy navy(well more or less). Now are they supposed to beat one of the best airforce and the best navy? Naboo air should still be considered at least third or fourth best(behind Rebels, Wookiees and Republic). Gungan Navy is already the best. By downgrading the Naboo air you kill it's realism and perhaps their best recognisable unit.

 

As for ground force you've messed up fast sneak around stealthy units with frontal assault ones! Don't you get it???

It's simple! The rebels are a fast sneak around stealthy civ, the naboo are a fast sneak around stealthy civ, the wookiees are a fast sneak around stealthy civ while the trade fed, the confederacy, the republic, the empire and the gungans are frontal assault civs, mainly using massive numbers of troopers/weapons/mechs to overcome their enemy. You,re mixing up the two types which makes a civ overpowered.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu, you still haven't named a weakness of your Uber-Naboo-peoples. Something similar to the following:

 

Confederacy: Air, Jedi

Empire: Air (that's it really, they're quite well-rounded)

Rebels: Mechs, Ships

Republic: Ships (Also well rounded, though less-so than Empire)

Trade Fed: Troopers, Jedi

Wookiees: Mechs, Jedi

[pbguy1211]

i dont even think the rebel mechs are half bad. they get heavy assaults and heavy MDs. they just dont get the HP and speed upgrades. Well, the last armor upgrade i guess the dont get either. but they more than make up for it in their troopers/adv mounted troopers.

[Sithmaster_821]

Ok:

 

1. The role of mechs depends on the civ being played. Some civs (Reps) they serve as infantry support, whereas others (TF) they serve as the backbone of the respective armies, whereas still others (Rebs) they are virtually non-existant, and rarely are seen in battle. This adds to variety amongst civs.

 

2. pbguy-I agree that strike mechs need either a speed nerf or a damage output one. They're just too fast for grenadiers (in the hands of a good player) and too strong for mounties (even numbers). But I think the discussion is about the fabled SWGB2...

 

3. Windu-Do you realize that gungan water+naboo air=unstoppable on water maps, and still manages to be quite uber on land maps too. Civs must have weaknesses. As for forced units, take a gander at my version of the Gungans. I think I made up like three units, and they were quite plausible too. The Naboo are next (I promise I'll get aound to it soon, and yes, I know I said rebs are next, but the subjects that I matched them with fit both, and I'm kinda in a Naboo mood as of currently...)