SkinWalker Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 This is a Mulit-Thread Series on Science versus Psuedoscience. The purpose of Multi-Thread is that it allows the Directory thread to be "stuck" and offer links to other threads in the series that are not "stuck". It even allows direct link to specific posts. How to post Simply click on one of the topics below to go to that thread, read the posts so far, then post your own! Posts that go here should be about this series as a whole, or about Multi-Thread as a concept. Please do not address topics of the Sub-Threads here, as they will be deleted or moved. The Multi-Thread Outline The Main Thread (MT): This thread. Sub-Thread 1 (ST-1) : Anachronistic Thinking Sub-Thread 2 (ST-2) : Seeking Mysteries Sub-Thread 3 (ST-3) : Appeals to Myths Sub-Thread 4 (ST-4) : Casual Approach to Evidence Sub-Thread 5 (ST-5) : Irrefutable Hypothesis Sub-Thread 6 (ST-6) : Spurious Similarities Sub-Thread 7 (ST-7) : Explanation by Scenario Sub-Thread 8 (ST-8) : Sub-Thread 9 (ST-9) : Sub-Thread 10 (ST-10) : Sub-Thread 11 (ST-11) : Sources of Information Much of this Multi-Thread topic, Science versus Psuedoscience, I’m adapting indirectly from John Casti’s book, Paradigms Lost, in which he summarizes the characteristics of pseudo-science. I say "indirectly" because the material is found in a well-written brochure by Dr. Massimo Pigliucci at http://www.rationallyspeaking.org. Pigliucci, M., 2001. Science vs. Pseudoscience : Where is the Difference ? Found online at : http://www.rationallyspeaking.org Casti, J., 1990. Paradigms Lost : Tackling the Unanswered Mysteries of Modern Science. Avon Books, New York. Sagan, Carl.,1995. The Demon-Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark . New York: Random House. Shermer, Michael, February 2003. Psychic Drift: Why most scientists do not believe in ESP and psi phenomena.Scientific American, found at: http://www.sciam.com/psiarticle Hyman, Ray, 1996. "The Evidence for Psychic Functioning: Claims vs. Reality" Found at http://www.csicop.org/si/9603/claims.html Hyman, Ray. "Evaluation of Program on Anomalous Mental Phenomena," Journal of Scientific Exploration, Volume 10 Number 1. Found at http://www.mceagle.com/remote-viewing/refs/science/air/hyman.html Why this format ? What I plan to do with the information provided in Dr. Piglicci’s brochure is use his definititions, perhaps expand upon them a bit (particularly if they are overly technical), then add an example of a pseudoscientific claim that fits the each criteria. Each of the 11 criteria will have a sub-thread of it’s own and be linked from this thread’s first post (this post). I’ll edit this post from time-to-time to provide links to the sub-threads as I add them. My thinking right now is to add them no more than three at a time, so the 11th criteria might not be debuted for days or weeks. This is to allow enough time to discuss the previous criteria. About The Sub-Threads In each of the Sub-Threads, you will noticed a title, such as "Seeking Mysteries" along with a short code as to which topic it is, in the case of this example, "ST-2." Each of these Sub-threads will contain a short quote from Pigliucci regarding one of Casti's criteria for distinguishing between science and pseudoscience. I invite all sorts of comment on the topics themselves and hope that some interesting discussions will ensue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 18, 2003 Author Share Posted August 18, 2003 I'll probably post the remainder of the Sub-Topics within this week (likely toward the end), especially since it doesn't seem to be going all that well as a discussion method. Still, I am interested in what everyone thinks of the Multi-Thread idea.... I've got a few other ideas... some that might even span to other forums with the main-topic rooted in one. There are a wide range of topics that can be covered and I'm open to input (that is, should we decide to do this type of threading again). It seems convenient as a method to discuss multiple, but related topics (religion anyone?) and I used pseudoscience as an example, but my real focus will be the 2004 election. I plan to start another mulit-thread in the early Spring and would like others to take on the Sub-Threads, with the Main-Thread acting as the "table of contents." Please... let me know your thoughts, even if short one-line comments. I see that each sub-topic gets a fair number of views (at least as many as there are regular visitors), so perhaps some are reading and getting information, but have nothing they wish to share. If so, PM me or, better yet, post here and let me/us know. The LucasForums are going to get pretty active in the next few months (school is back in and JA is due out), so I expect the activity in the Senate to pick up a bit as well. Help C'Jais (where is he anyway ) and I make it a welcome place for those who wish to participate in intellectual discussion and debate... but friendly and/or civil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 friendly and/or civil Lol. 'and/or'. Lol. Hmmm. I've got not so much a topic, as a case-book example for this thread. Two in fact: http://www.dhmo.org http://www.evolution-facts.org Both of these employ the techniques mentioned elsewhere in the thread. To end this post, I think that the idea of a multi-topic thread is good, but I also think that people have to get used to it. Also, the topic of this multi-thread is rather vague and technically-sounding, and so perhaps not the best way of introducing a new concept. Just my .02€. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 Why Science vs. Psuedoscience ? I see psuedoscience and the claims of psuedoscience as a danger to society. A look at public schools shows a decrease in interest among students in the sciences. A look at colleges and universities reflects this trend with the number of enrollments that choose scientific fields. In my country (I acknowledge that there is a large number of members in LucasForums and the Senate who are non-American), many of the positions in scientific fields, particularly engineering, physics, and chemistry, are having to be out-sourced to those of other nationalities, which demonstrates the shortage of qualified personnel from within the country. I also think, that because, partially at least, there’s a decline in interest with the sciences that there is a natural incline in the propensity to accept, at face value, the claims of the paranormal, supernatural, and mythological as fact. The increased acceptance of pseudoscientific claims (from the "harmless" nature of cigarettes to alien abduction to psychic abilities) and the decreased number of scientists and researchers might create a society that will depend on the development and ingenuity of other nations. Already, the United States has shown to be far more consumer oriented and less discovery oriented. That’s not to say that discovery no longer occurs, but ratio of self-sufficiency to dependancy on foreign resources is certainly more toward the latter at the turn of the 21st century than the turn of the 20th. Finally, and perhaps more importantly, pseudoscience makes it difficult for actual research and development to proceed. The general public has, at times, a misconception of what the goals and needs for science is. A look at embryonic stem cell research is a good example. The word "embryonic" carries with it a mental image of a tiny human, when, in fact, embryonic refers to the blastocyst that is in the early stage of development and never gets the opportunity to become an human fetus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar http://www.dhmo.org http://www.evolution-facts.org Both of these employ the techniques mentioned elsewhere in the thread. As well as others I'm going to be posting this weekend. Particularly the Evolution-facts.org site. Another tactic of the creationist proponents is to invent evidence entirely, such as the case of the Malachite Man. Don Patton has claimed that the discovery of a number of malachite-encrusted skeletons between 1990 and 1996 is evidence that humans existed long before they were supposed to. It turned out that some of the photos of Malachite Man on his website were identical to photos that were published of the Moab Man skeletons in the February 1975 issue of Desert Magazine. Since then, the website has been changed to distinguish between the two finds. There is as yet no published material on these skeletons, but the fact that they were found in the same copper mine as the Moab Man skeletons suggests that they are also recent. For more info, check The Life and Death of Malachite Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Eggplant Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 like the ancient romans: on the subject of science and para-science I believe in none of them publically and all of them privately. what do I mean by this, well science and para-science both make sweeping claims they can't live up to. both science and para-science i find are now walking the same path. I find that on shows based on science or claiming to, ie the discovery channel, all their specials (last one i saw nefertiti resurrected) they have all become historical re-enactments, with grandios plot build ups to not much of anything. all making it sound splashy, exciting and new. there is still so much that scientist claim hypothetically to be just so, and paranormal investigations are just so many just so stories. and science, well science has fallen a long, long way from grace to even be considered these days. where do students go after schooling? to corporations, no one wants to do research for the good of mankind any longer. no i saw a so called prominent and eminant pyschologist on 60 minutes, and what was he doing? using his extensive scientific mind to help car makers trick americans into thinking they want big huge SUV's. and the interview shows he lives in baronial splendor now. and what is accomplished by this? that 'we' the dominant species on the planet surface today are filling our tanks and ruining our enviroment with liquid dinosaurs *whom by the way were a dominant species a few years ago. "hey mister brontosaurus...walking in your foot steps" [no one seems to get this.] nor do they get, "I don't want to die just yet, only for a cigarette." anyhow back on topic... science now wants to patten every single atom in our bodies, I am not objecting to this based upon religious beliefs, I am basing this on human rights, and dignity. does any man who finds a piece of genetic code, have the right to claim, pattend and engrave a serial number into a piece of my body? and science again (or medicine which is science) people donate their organs in the ultimate philanthropic and altruistic gesture that a human being can make, and where is this organic material going? to companies wanting to harvest the human geonome for profit. I mean science,...well you wonder why people are losing faith in this grand and once man made religion, it no longer serves the common good, or produces miracles for the masses. so along come the Raelians and they get news coverage, and the X-Files become a huge cult phenomina, and sort askew, but Steven Speilburg, I have heard him give interviews about E.T he made that film because public opinion and alien movie culture was all about aliens, abductions, conquests etc. but now he made a new thing Taken. why has this film maker gone over to the other side? well it's early or late and the coke rush is wearing into mumbles of sleepiness, I tried to be serious in this post. I find myself of late wanting to believe in both science and para-science; while at the same time disenfranchised by both science and para-science, but i can not come to terms with either. maybe it is because when IBM supposedly the largest computer company, yada ya made computers, they did not actually believe there would be a need for PC's personal computers in the home. maybe it's because after Y2K we still have a 4digit computer roll over date, which is going to Y3K or whatever, and still no one has fixed it. maybe it is because Bill Gates is eager to keep making computers with bugs in them while holding a monopoly of a science and technnology which should be helping and improving mankind, but instead it is creating a nation of pale eyed swollen eyeballs who amusingly enough, when the power failed on the great eastern coast of this brave new world, sat around in the dark wondering how to light a candle or make a flash light work. and most ironic of all; in the great field of technical tele communications, cel phones which are suppose to be such a god send, were useless when that good old scientific edisson invention failed. I find myself these days becoming both a science and para-science aetheist these days, since neither of them are perfect or accurate or even capable of producing any tangible proof of life; out there, or on our planets surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homuncul Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Darth Eggplant: I find myself these days becoming both a science and para-science aetheist these days, since neither of them are perfect or accurate or even capable of producing any tangible proof of life; out there, or on our planets surface. The same way I can ask if anything in your life is truely direct and tangible. You would momentarily see that nothing is. And what do you consider the "measure of accuracy" needed for proof to be tangible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted September 15, 2003 Author Share Posted September 15, 2003 Updated the Main Thread to reflect the two new threads on Spurious Similarities and Explanation by Scenario. I realize that not many people seem interested in posting in these threads, but since I started it, I feel compelled to finish Also, it is such a relief to occasionally get something other than religion to debate, so perhaps someone will take an opposing stand.... I suppose I could start dissin' the Mothman myth and lure Darth Groovster back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 "SkinWalker" Isn't this forum so lonely with out me here to bash whatever you have to say. I think it's pretty well know how I feel about science and religion. So I can't really argue with you on psuedoscience as a danger. If you would like to take up defending it I would be more than happy to let you have it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Eggplant Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Baby Toothpicks and one great hanging Celestial Mobile Corn Flake Boxes electric charged Potatoes with roots hanging off to the power of 2 the Pentagram of Dirty Socks underneath Pizza Boxes stacked to the sky the Phone never stops ringing the Ghosts like Pizza, they have not had it in years; the House Dwellers go to their beds and sleep through the din trying to get use to the New Tenants wishing they would only pay some rent. Our Electives keep us busy at school then you have to work for some Extra Scratch little time do I find for myself I have no time for the Ghosts; for Baby Cheese and Crew such is the life of the Ex-Assistant Manager gone back to school, from the counter job at an Anorexic Doughnut Hut What Evil Possessed me? Why did I go back to School? You want me to Believe in the Occult; Convince me of Reality first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted October 18, 2003 Author Share Posted October 18, 2003 Believe it or not Darth E., I'm gonna leave that here! At first I was thinking, "wtf?" But I read it again and I get it (okay... almost get it). I like the last two lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted December 7, 2003 Author Share Posted December 7, 2003 This topic is dead.... I'm "Un-Sticking" the thread....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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