will MP gameplay be like SP?

[BigMexican]

i find the guns to be fairly unimaginative and bland. there's a pistol (blaster), machine-gun (E-11/repeater), shotgun (flechette/bowcaster), sniper rifle (disruptor), grenade launcher (flechette/repeater secondary fire), the rocket launcher, and then the grenades, trip mines and det packs. nothing that hasn't been done to death in other games. the DEMP2 adds a bit to singleplayer, but unless there are droids in siege mode it won't be useful in multiplayer. the lightsaber is what sets the game apart from quake3 or ut2003, so i think the game should have a strong focus on it.

 

that isn't to say that i want guns to be nerfed, or saber made all powerful, but rather that balance should be approached from the perspective of trying to offer a challenge to saberists, but one that isn't insurmountable.

[StormHammer]

I don't have a problem with gunners having no (or limited) Force powers - while holding a gun. Sure, slow their movement down, and allow a couple (not all) weapons to be pulled from them.

 

But the problem then becomes Saber Defence used by the Saberist. The Saberist can use Force Speed and Jump to get in close to a gunner who would no longer have access to those things, and basically run circles around them, and use the saber to deflect every shot, Push to push away rockets and Heavy Repeater secondary. End result...one dead gunner in 3 seconds flat. No fun for the gunner at all in that.

 

So if there were to be a game mode along these lines, then I think the Force powers available to the Saberist should actually be made less strong - and saber defence taken down a notch so stray blaster fire does get through. When you can just stand there and reflect practically every blaster shot coming at you, and repel other fire modes with Push, and absorb the pitifully few shots that might get through at the moment by using Protect or Rage, you become practically invincible.

 

You might argue that's the whole point of being a Jedi, and I'd agree...but it would be absolutely no fun at all for gunners in the game.

 

Another way to 'balance' it would be to give the gunner ramped up armour, and access to more health packs.

 

I think it could be done...if necessary...and I hope Siege is somewhat along these lines.

[jarek]

Originally posted by StormHammer

But the problem then becomes Saber Defence used by the Saberist. The Saberist can use Force Speed and Jump to get in close to a gunner who would no longer have access to those things, and basically run circles around them, and use the saber to deflect every shot, Push to push away rockets and Heavy Repeater secondary. End result...one dead gunner in 3 seconds flat. No fun for the gunner at all in that.

 

So if there were to be a game mode along these lines, then I think the Force powers available to the Saberist should actually be made less strong - and saber defence taken down a notch so stray blaster fire does get through. When you can just stand there and reflect practically every blaster shot coming at you, and repel other fire modes with Push, and absorb the pitifully few shots that might get through at the moment by using Protect or Rage, you become practically invincible.

 

That all sounds great on paper, but the fact is, saberists are far from invincible. The saber defense from blaster fire is pretty much the only thing that keeps a saberist from being dead in 3 seconds flat. The other strategies you mentioned, I really dont see as unfair. Because the force powers are available to all. A gunner can just as easily push a projectile back as a saberist does. I know guys who are really good at "heavy repeater ping pong". And as for force protect, for the amount of force it uses vs the amount of damage you reflect, I'd say its almost useless. It'll keep your health up longer, but then youre out of force....and then youre REALLY dead.

[Kurgan]

I didn't mean to insult or offend. When I said fanboys, I really should clarify... (in a sense we are all "fans" because we like Star Wars in some shape or form.. fanboys are people who can't see anything but their own limited point of view, because they think this is their game and nobody else's).

 

These are not just the role players and "honorz" people, but rather those who want to limit the game to "Obi-Wan" levels.

 

They essentially are saying... "okay, sure, you made this great game with all this stuff, but all we want to play is Sabers."

 

I wouldnt consider myself a "jedi" or a "lightsaber" fanboy. I just believe that Jedi Knight/Academy is more than just your average FPS game, because of the lightsaber and force powers. Everyone uses the guns sometimes. Thats what's unique about the game. The ability to go at it with a gun or a lightsaber. Its a variety not found in any other FPS game.

 

Agreed. But I don't see guns+force as being any less legit than sabers+force in terms of fun, or in-universe "goodness."

 

Sabers only is just one gametype within this vast array of options, I just don't want to be limited to that.

 

I kinda like the idea someone had about limiting certain force powers for those that carry a gun. Or instead making the force powers stronger when using a lightsaber. Or maybe someone takes more damage from a lightsaber attack while they have a gun equipped. But, I know that'll never happen.

 

From what we have heard, it sounds like this is what Siege mode is going to be (or something similar to it). MotS also had this feature. FFA will be the same though.

 

I was saying that the fanboys can't stand to have sabers be anything less than the ultimate weapon, so they either won't tolerate guns or want them nerfed.

 

This is an arguement that will never end. Those who want the lightsaber to be more powerful are labeled jedi fanboys. Those who want guns to reign supreme are labeled quake fanboys.

 

Yeah, I understand. The whole "Quake" thing never really made sense, because that assumes that taking away sabers makes this identical to Quake3. Guns+Force is just as unique and worlds-apart different as Sabers+Force. After all, nobody accuses JK of being a "Heretic II Ripoff" or a "Rune Clone" in sabers only do they?

 

Maybe I shouldn't use labels... I am just a little sick of hearing the same old fallacious arguments used by those folks to elevate what are really just gameplay preferences. ; p

[Dunedain]

I just wanted to add that the stuff I was referring to about guns

and no force and all of that had nothing to do with a mod or game type.

I was just pointing out that one of the main reasons that there is this

difficulty or debate regarding balancing of someone using guns vs a player using

the lightsaber is that the whole situation is not the way an actual battle

like this would happen in Star Wars. So naturally you get a balance problem.

Because you have guys kind of like bounty hunters running around with all these

guns, oh, and they are also Jedi Knights, they also have lightsabers, and they

have all kinds of force powers besides. Hmm...

 

No wonder it's all messed up and unbalanced, the whole premise of the fight

bears no resemblance to an actual fight that would happen in Star Wars!

 

That's why I suggested a fight between a Jedi Knight (lightsaber, force, etc.)

against some players with just guns. Then you'd get a much more accurate idea of how

such a fight would go in Star Wars.

 

In such a fight in Star Wars, the bad guys would almost certainly end up toast.

And in JK, it would probably go about the same.

[Tinny]

u know, i think what would be great is that if you could respond with force as fast as a guy can shoot with a gun. in sp, no matter how fast you shot at a shadowtrooper he would push back everything, in mp, u can shoot the alternate of the flechette or repeater faster than u can make push work. if we can make force respond faster and make a lightsaber almost lethal, a force powered saberer can stand up to a force powered gunner.

[Obi-Wan X]

After my first game of MP in the recent months, ive changed my mind.

 

1 to 2 hits wouldn't be smart. Realistic...sure, but theres more to a game than this. I encourage dismemberment on death hit, but thats pretty much all as far as saber realism. 1 to 2 hits...lets say we have em...what about special moves? Why would I want to waste time lining up an enemy with my reticle, jumping smoothly and slapping fire to initiate a medium special that if I missed i'd be killed in a single hit or two. When I could simply switch to blue stance, run after an enemy like an idiot and hold my fire button, thus killing the opponent with ease?

 

Or why would I care to feign attacks and time my enemy so I can pull off a DFA? My normal attacks would finish the person off easily anyway!

 

The thing is...the damage is fine as it is as far as SABER BATTLES go. The sad thing is that it can be hard for a saber carrier to defeat a gunner without the force.

 

Then again...think about it in terms of SOME realism. Your a Jedi with a lightsaber...but without the force....hmmm...well...duh you cant win easily without the force!

 

The force is what makes a lightsaber worth something against gunners. So think about it in terms of that. And i have no problem against gunners when force is available. If the saber is proving a disadvantage then I switch to guns.

 

Simple as that! I go with the flow. And I like the swift pace of multiplayer....I want it to stay somewhat the same as 1.04 honestly, except with more collision detection.

 

Thats really the only thing I liked so much about SP, the high amounts of collision detection.

 

Put more of that in multiplayer and im fine...but thats just me.

[BigMexican]

as it is, special moves are special because they do increased damage. perhaps if saber blocking was increased, but specials were given increased penetration, a higher saber damage could work, still providing a good variety of moves for duels. and i agree with the blocking, i think alt fire with the E-11 at close range should fry anyone with a lightsaber, as should the repeater.

[jarek]

Kurgan,

 

Dont worry, no offense taken I can see how it would appear that I'm being a "saber fanboy". But, I try to look at an issue at every angle, not just my own, before I think a balance change is needed. If something I say comes off as "wishful thinking", it probably is, but also with reason. What I'm wanting is for a saber user to have a fair shake versus the big guns. And I dont think JO balance was as good as it could have been in that particular area. This doesnt mean I want to start nerfing guns, or make the lightsaber an ungodly powerful weapon.

 

The whole "Quake" reference is just a simple way to express how I (many people actually) feel about the lightsaber and its inability to kill a skilled gunner. If its not effective, people will turn to the guns and forget the saber. If you take away the lightsaber and the force powers, all youve got is another quake game. I've noticed alot of gun-only people who dont even use force powers, except for push! heh

 

On a side note, I think its pretty cool that the admins and moderators of this forum are very active and polite. Alot of forums just have mods who want to be mean, play god, and censor folks who have an opinion that they disagree with. Keep up the good work.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by jarek

That all sounds great on paper, but the fact is, saberists are far from invincible. The saber defense from blaster fire is pretty much the only thing that keeps a saberist from being dead in 3 seconds flat. The other strategies you mentioned, I really dont see as unfair. Because the force powers are available to all. A gunner can just as easily push a projectile back as a saberist does. I know guys who are really good at "heavy repeater ping pong". And as for force protect, for the amount of force it uses vs the amount of damage you reflect, I'd say its almost useless. It'll keep your health up longer, but then youre out of force....and then youre REALLY dead.

 

I accept your comments...but you're speaking in the context of everyone having access to the Force (i.e., normal gameplay) ...whereas my original post was in the context of gunners having no access to the Force. A Saberist with access to all Force powers, up against a gunner with no Force powers at all...would win quite easily, IMHO, because the most useful weapon for a gunner against a saberist using the Force at the moment is the flechette, and there is not a limitless supply of ammo for it. The gunner would not really be able to avoid rockets and heavy repeater secondary fire that are pushed back at him either (without the Force you can't jump high out of the way, you can't roll in any direction, you can't use absorb or protect, and you can't use Force speed to avoid it - if you had no Force powers).

 

So the end result of a Saberist (Force) v Gunner (no Force) would be no fun for the gunner. Most of your arsenal of weapons would simply be useless - which is why everyone has complained so passionately about the flechette and the heavy repeater secondary - because they are really the most effective guns to use.

 

And I'll say a big thanks from all the mods and Admins about your last comment.

 

Originally posted by Dunedain

That's why I suggested a fight between a Jedi Knight (lightsaber, force, etc.)

against some players with just guns. Then you'd get a much more accurate idea of how

such a fight would go in Star Wars.

 

In such a fight in Star Wars, the bad guys would almost certainly end up toast.

And in JK, it would probably go about the same.

 

And that is exactly my point. Such a fight would be great for the one playing the 'Jedi'...but it would be absolutely zero fun for the gunners involved. Basically, no one who likes to play with guns would even bother playing a game where they are predestined to lose - unless they are simply role players expecting to die for some particular scenario. If gunners had no Force powers to draw on...then the game would have to be rebalanced so that the 'Jedi' with Force is not invincible in a game context, or you might as well get rid of all weapons other than the lghtsaber.

[Dunedain]

Like I said, I wasn't referring to any type of gameplay, just pointing out why

the problem exists in the first place. Namely, because the situation as it is

done in JK regarding Jedi vs gun wielders is nothing like what it would

actually be in Star Wars, so naturally you get balance problems and things

that don't seem to make sense. And that's because they don't make sense.

 

Now, since JA is a game and we want to give guys with guns at least a somewhat

fair chance, purely for the sake of gameplay, so they don't just get cut down

like saplings left and right (which is what would really happen in a fight

with a Jedi Knight ), I can understand letting them have some force powers.

Just so it can be competitive, if for no other reason.

 

Now, speaking purely in game terms, how would it be best to balance it?

Maybe severely limit their force powers unless they throw down their gun

and use the lightsaber (and you couldn't pick up another gun for a few minutes

after dropping the gun, this way the choice would mean something and last for a while)?

[BigMexican]

perhaps give gunners force-like powers, powered by technology. like shield regenerators, jetpacks, or a flame thrower (that acts like level 3 lightning) like the one Boba Fett's dad (forgot his name) used in the most recent of the new movies. you could have dedicated a dedicated gunner class, or a dedicated jedi class, similar to siege mode i guess (maybe it's something that's already in there?).

 

this may have already been tried in a mod, but i haven't seen it, so don't yell at me if i've posted stuff that's been around for a while

 

anyway, just speculating ... if it hasn't been done in a mod, well maybe it's an idea, if it has, can someone link me, i wouldn't mind checking it out

[BigMexican]

perhaps give gunners force-like powers, powered by technology. like shield regenerators, jetpacks, or a flame thrower (that acts like level 3 lightning) like the one Boba Fett's dad (forgot his name) used in the most recent of the new movies. you could have dedicated a dedicated gunner class, or a dedicated jedi class, similar to siege mode i guess (maybe it's something that's already in there?).

 

this may have already been tried in a mod, but i haven't seen it, so don't yell at me if i've posted stuff that's been around for a while

 

anyway, just speculating ... if it hasn't been done in a mod, well maybe it's an idea, if it has, can someone link me, i wouldn't mind checking it out

[Kurgan]

Hope nobody is offended by the term "fanboy." I'm not a "gun fanboy" because I use the saber, I just don't say that it should be the ultimate weapon or that gun users should be nerfed so that the saber can beat them.

 

I don't enjoy Quake as much as the JK series, because here I can use Force and it has the Star Wars atmosphere. Using the saber is just icing on the cake. But if it's all people are going to ever use, why does Raven waste their time making a whole set of other weapons and game modes to use non-Saber weapons?

 

It's like they make this fabulous game and people only take advantage of 1% of it!

 

The whole "Quake" reference is just a simple way to express how I (many people actually) feel about the lightsaber and its inability to kill a skilled gunner. If its not effective, people will turn to the guns and forget the saber. If you take away the lightsaber and the force powers, all youve got is another quake game. I've noticed alot of gun-only people who dont even use force powers, except for push! heh

 

It's still a fallacious argument, and I'll give an example why:

 

The Bryar pistol is the weapon of a mercenary like Kyle Katarn.

 

It has been his trusted weapon since the series and the character were created.

 

Thus, the game will only be truly balanced when the Bryar pistol can hold its own against the big guns. I see people running around using other weapons and the Bryar pistol just has no chance. If I wanted to use big guns, I would go play Quake. If I wanted to swing a melee weapon I would play Heretic II or Rune:HOV. Raven needs to balance the game so that the Bryar is the powerful weapon of the mercenary it was meant to be.

 

Now see how silly that is? But, wait, you say, this is "Jedi Knight" and Jedi use lightsabers!!

 

But remember, the series has always been unconventional, it has always had guns. Why put in other weapons if they are all inferior to the saber? The type of "balance" that has always been part of the series has been situational effectiveness. Different weapons are better in different situations.

 

This is different than SP, where you "upgrade" from a weak weapon to a stronger weapon to a stronger weapon until you finally have the "ultimate weapon" which you then use to "own" hordes of pathetic AI enemies.

 

Examples of this balance I'm talking about:

 

The Lightsaber is powerful in close quarters (although less effective against another saber), purely defensive at a distance. Attacking decreases its defensive potential.

 

The Repeater is great mid-range, poor close quarters and mediocre long range.

 

The Disruptor is excellent long range, poor close range and mediocre medium range.

 

Trip Mines and Det Packs are great for setting traps, but terrible as regular combat weapons (just as likely to hurt you as they are to hurt the enemy).

 

Thermal Detonators are inaccurate and short range, but hard to deflect and have a large blast radius and can't be blocked by sabers.

 

DEMP2 is slow, and crappy overall, but it can't be blocked by sabers or force pushed away.

 

etc.

 

What the "saber fanboys" are really asking for is Obi-Wan PC. This would have been the perfect game for them. The Force powers are low level, and the game is completely saber dominated, no guns to "get in the way."

 

From all that we've seen and heard about this game, its a moot point really. The only place that saber fanboys will have their dreams fulfilled is in single player or on saber only servers.

 

Granted, I love the saber and I love good duels, but in FFA or team games like CTF or Siege, its just going to be one more weapon in your arsenal, not the ultimate weapon.

 

The whole thing about lack of lightsabers making this "just like Quake" is also fallacious because you forget about Force. Very few MP FPS games have anything to compare to the Force in the JK series really. Guns+Force is just as much "Star Wars" as Sabers+Force. Or even guns alone, since they are still Star Wars weapons in a Star Wars environment.

 

Anyway, if people are owning you without using Force, then perhaps your own skills leave something to be desired? Again, no offense...

 

The way I see it, if a person can play MP and never switch from the saber and win all the time against competent opponents who don't do the same, then something is wrong with the balance...

 

 

For those complaining that the weapons are "bland and unimaginative" c'mon.... you should know by now that the Star Wars weapons are all based on Real Life weapons, which just so happen to be featured in other games.

 

Han Solo's blaster and the ST Rifle for example are simply modified WWII era machineguns and pistols respectively. The thermal detonator is a hand grenade, the mines are... surprise, mines! The Sniper Rifle... hmm... starting to get the picture?

 

The Lightsaber is original you say... oh wait, it's just a flaming sword!

 

If the weapons were imaginative people would complain that they were not "Star Warsy enough" or rip offs of Star Trek or Unreal.

 

I think they did a great job with the weapons, nobody can claim they aren't straight out of Star Wars.

 

No wonder it's all messed up and unbalanced, the whole premise of the fight

bears no resemblance to an actual fight that would happen in Star Wars!

 

That's why I suggested a fight between a Jedi Knight (lightsaber, force, etc.)

against some players with just guns. Then you'd get a much more accurate idea of how

such a fight would go in Star Wars.

 

In such a fight in Star Wars, the bad guys would almost certainly end up toast.

And in JK, it would probably go about the same.

 

JK2 already had this, it was called Jedi Master but since nobody played it, Raven removed it from JA. Go figure.

[Kurgan]

Just to remind anybody who forgot, the sabers in JA *will* do more damage (akin to saberdamagescale 2 or 3) in CTF and FFA compared to Duel, so that will help immensely.

 

With the default 1.04 settings I did feel that they were a little too weak for non-duels...

[Dunedain]

Kurgan: Well, I never said that playing something like Jedi Master would

necessarily be fun, especially for the guys with the guns. I'm just saying

that sort of setup produces a more accurate idea of what such a battle

in Star Wars would actually go like.

 

Do I understand you correctly when you say that the lightsaber damage in

CTF and FFA will be higher (a definite improvement), but that it won't be

increased over 1.04 for duels? If so, I find that quite odd, as the players

that fight in lightsaber duels would probably want the lightsaber damage

increased and made more realistic more than any other group of players.

As that results in more authentic duels. Which is what duelers almost always

seem to want. Hmm, very strange.

[Dunedain]

Well, for the many Jedi Knight fans that were hoping for more realistic lightsaber duels to be included in Jedi Academy, check out the Open Jedi Project mod (link below). From reading the manual for the mod, it seems to make the lightsaber combat vastly more accurate to Star Wars.

 

http://lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=542

[ensiform]

Please do not revive old threads like this. And most of the regulars here already know of OJP and can see it on the jedi knight section anyway.