KestrelPi

Man looking at them side by side makes me appreciate the new Guybrush all the more though. It's very distinctive while still unmistakably Guybrush, and his face is so expressive, he really looks like a man who is going through some stuff. I never got that from Guybrush before, and I think/hope it speaks to a Guybrush more like the one in the first two games, who even when in silly situations, has a sense of seriousness about his goals.

Hmmmmmm. I agree that CMI's art choices cast a long shadow, but even as quite a bit of a CMI-liker I'm not sure I think that I necessarily like that about it. Which I've sort of said before in different ways, but basically I think that especially the guybrush design has been very much influenced by CMI, you see that influence in RMI too, and it feels like it somewhat restricts our imagination on what a guybrush can possibly look like, I want more darker-blond, not so long in the face Guybrushes, personally. These features definitely feel like CMI holdovers.

The 256 colour version of Monkey Island came out in Dec 1990, only 2 months after the 16 colour release and long before MI2. It's possible they were developed with both games in mind, though. ---- Boo, merged topics I think the most specific thing I've ever seen Ron say about the secret was in the #monkey-island DALNet chat: <Dalixam> Hi Ron, glad to meet you :) The secret of Monkey Island is probably the most well kept secret ever. Can it actually be seen/found in MI1 or MI2? I'm not asking you to reveal it :) <Ron-G> Yes, if you really look at what's going on, you might be able to come close. <Ron-G> There are a lot of jokes, that aren't really jokes. <Ron-G> The problem with the Secret of Monkey Island... <Ron-G> is that it's built up sich a mystic, that when I finally do reviel it, you're all going to go "That was dumb". :-) I can't remember who recently said in an interview that he felt like there's stuff going on in ReMI which is very relevant to how Ron has talked about the secret before, so even if the secret isn't exactly the same as it was in 1991, I think it might be related/close.

I think to me though this only exaggerates how determined they were to iterate on the art style. Like, the games were made a year apart (unthinkable, now), and subject to pretty much the same technical limitations of each other (at least once everything was VGA, of course), so it's not entirely surprising that they reused some assets, and sprites for the same characters are the most obvious choice for that. But also with the games so close together they could so easily have gone for a very similar background art style too, nobody would have thought it was odd if they'd gone for something similar, computer drawn, in the same style as MI1 VGA. They had to go out of their way to use the marker drawing and scanned approach. There might have been other, practical reasons they changed the art style as well, but scanned art was very much not the obvious, go-to choice, so I think the fact that the sprites are similarly proportioned enough that they were able to reuse some assets from the game they made a year ago is fairly trivial in comparison with the overall ambition of what they were trying with MI2.

Hmmm. Good question. Maybe exaggerating a little? Not on purpose. I've seen Ron say a lot of things over the years and I don't think he's a liar, I think he says what he means in the moment. But I don't think it's unfair to say he's not the most straightforward person, doesn't always talk precisely and isn't always consistent.* It's fine, this isn't a criticism, he's human. if we took Ron on his precise word every time he ever said anything, we'd have a hell of a logical knot to untangle. So... I think it makes sense look at the context in which he said this. He was saying perhaps a little defiantly trying to deflect criticism and turn it into a positive. It feels like it was his way of saying 'hell yeah, you don't have to like it, that's the point. It's s'posed to be that some people don't like it, that's means it's working.' I've no doubt that he wanted the art style to be interesting, and he wanted it to be distinctive. And I think 'not what everyone was expecting' is accurate. But if he really wanted the art to be shocking, I'd say he kinda failed. He could have picked artists way more suitable for THAT goal. More than anything though, I defintely don't think 'provocative/shocking' was the main goal (and Ron never said it was.) I just think he really liked Rex's art and wanted to do that. That trumps any other consideration. It can be as provocative and shocking as he likes, but it's still gotta be a fit. Personally, from what we've seen I think it's gonna be a great fit but I can see how it might take some getting used to. * That Monkey6.exe thing is a case in point, actually. Previously he's tweeted he doesn't consider it either Monkey 3 or Monkey 6 and that it defies numbering. Now he's happy enough to include 6 as a poll option. I don't think that really means anything, he's just goofing around anyway, but I mean it goes to show that maybe we shouldn't be hanging on his every word.

My favourite LucasArts game is The Last Jedi.

So then we're all agreed. This isn't an echo chamber.

Septembrrr Muda

Huh. Maybe it's just me, but I don't find the change that shocking. I mean, in comparison to what we've had in the previous games. I don't think I'm as surprised by this as I was by say... the character designs in CMI, at the time. I don't find this as huge as a switch to 3D, even though I liked that at the time. MI has a history trying different artists and making different artistic choices, so while the art style is very distinctive and new for the series, as a choice to do that, it doesn't strike me as particularly bold or provocative. A lot is made of Ron talking about how he likes to provoke the audience but in the end he's just going with a style he thinks is cool, and this is hardly the first time that's happened. The MI series has been pulling this for years in the art department (while the music has always had at least Michael Land involved, it's always been an adventure game, and the voices have largely, but not completely remained consistent.) I have a suspicion that when the dust settles, we'll be too busy talking about the story and its ramifications to worry about anything else.

I take your points and would add to this that talking about the art is not only possible, but has happened several times already in this thread. Here, I'll prove it: I'll do it right now, and given an unvarnished opinion on the latest art we've seen: generally speaking, I've liked the vibe of the Brrr Muda art a bit less than the other stuff we've seen. Of everything we've seen to me it looks the most angular and 'skewed', the hardest to get used to. I'll probably get used to it and it'll be fine, and as usual I think it all looks better in motion than static, and I certainly don't hate it but it's yet to 'click' for me. Maybe it's just because it's so unlike an environment we've seen before in MI, so the unfamiliar style plus unfamiliar environment are a bit daunting to look at. I'm also not sure I love Guybrush's talking animation when seen from the back, but I'd be curious about what it looks like from the front. That's it really. I haven't felt the need to bring it up before just because it's not really a big deal to me, I'd rather just focus on other things rather than talk about how I'm slightly underwhelmed by a single piece of art, and honestly it's more fun to talk about the stuff I'm curious about or excited by. I'm not interested in a discussion about it, I'm not asking for people to debate me on it, or agree or disagree with me on it, this is just a personal take, delivered (I hope) respectfully.

Ok, this is the last word I'm gonna say on this for now, but lately I've been thinking about the things we learned moderating the DF forums, and Discord. We often talked about how we don't actually have to be for everyone. It's not automatically a virtue to be a debate hall. Some places are just a... cosy hangout, or a bar or whatever, and sure, someone can walk up to the front and say 'here is why you're all wrong and the things you're excited about suck actually' but they're gonna get some funny looks, and if they can't read the room then they are very welcome to leave it. Just because that's not the vibe we're looking for doesn't make a place an irredeemable echo-chamber (we have enough disagreements here to know this to be the case, right?) We don't actually have to be an enlightenment era coffee house devoted to the free exchange of ideas. We can just be some (relatively) like minded people who are happy and excited about a game announcement. Sure we'll disagree on points and debate theories and quibble over details and have different hopes and dreams for how stuff shakes out but as as soon as you shift the mood from 'we're all here to be excited over a video game' to 'this sucks and that sucks and I want you all to talk to me about how much I think it sucks' then you've lost the room. We don't need to be all things to all people, we have no duty to do that, we can choose. It's not weakness, or intellectual cowardice, it's just creating an environment we want to continue to relax in. If someone else wants a different one, they're free to look for it, or create it and see who joins.

It's certainly one of the points I disagreed with at the time, and I'm still not entirely clear what the motivation was for making it back in 2013. Reviewers get advance copies because they work on deadlines, and if you want a timely review of your game then either you give them an advance copy or they're going to be under pressure once it's out to finish it as quickly as possible so they can write a review while it's still relevant - or not write one at all. Why would you want to put additional pressure on reviewers or stop them from doing their jobs? I suspect though that review copies are probably going to be something Devolver controls

Boy, it sure is good that there's a new Monkey Island game by Ron Gilbert and Dave Grossman coming out. Golly gee

Also to me it's so great as a structural thing for adventure games because it's like a little mental break. It's like trying to do a crossword and getting stuck then going for a walk and coming back and sorting it out straight away. Whenever I get stuck it's great to think I can just go somewhere else and change how I'm thinking about the problem.

I so very nearly had the same experience. I think I'm glad that I played them in order in the end, but I remember after seeing the intro to 1 and 2 I begged my Dad to get 2. Back then story just wasn't something I thought about in games, so even though I could see that there was story and dialogue in it, my 10 year old brain just wanted the latest game with the biggest number. If I played Mega Man 2 without 1, I could play Monkey Island 2. My dad will have forgotten, but I always wonder why he persuaded me to get 1 instead. I reckon it was because it probably would have been cheaper.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I think the chances of him reading this are preeetty low, honestly. I did mention to him in passing that we're generally pretty excited over here in Mojo land but I suspect right now he just wants to keep his head down and see the game out. Personally, and I think maybe part of it is to do with having various dev pals (and I promise this isn't a criticism of your approach, this is just the way I am), the older I get the more I find myself in a weird way both sharpening and mellowing out in the way I talk about stuff. I'm more specific than I used to be about why I like or dislike something, I spend more time talking about it and trying to unpack my feelings. But at the same time, while I don't always succeed, I try not to say anything in public about someone's work that I wouldn't be willing to say to their face as well. (in private forums, informally among small groups of friends though? Yeah, in those cases I might let loose a bit) This isn't really out of politeness - well, partially out of politeness, I guess, but I guess if I read something I said and realise 'I'd never say it that way to their face.' it helps me to be more specific and generous with my criticism, and get at what I'm really trying to say. Again, promise this isn't supposed to be a dig at you, I'm just try'na explain my angle on it. Really and truly you're good... don't mean to make a whole thing of it, was just trying to explain why it maybe hit me a bit different and I felt the need to respond to it.

You have to have a unique perspective here too, being someone who for Tales had ALL the spoilers in advance, and created a good number of them. I often wonder, being on that side of the equation, how I would deal. Do you find that as time passes it feels less like a thing you were a part of and more like 'just another game in the series' or is it hard to untangle the general feelings you have about Monkey Island and the specific feelings you had about helping to make that specific Monkey Island? Anyway... to talk to myself for a little while... I suppose eventually we ALL know all the spoilers. I still play and enjoy the first two games every so often even though I know them almost beat for beat (admittedly I like waiting until I've forgotten a game a bit before I replay it but with MI that gets harder and harder). But you can never go back, right. Once you've played it the first time, that's done. The only way I've found to recapture some of that first-play feeling is to watch someone else do it for the first time. Just to get a little bit of a second-hand taste of that first-play feeling. So I totally get people having a desire to want to keep it as pure as possible, because you only get one shot. But to me it's a tradeoff. I trade a little bit of the joy of surprise for the luxury of not having to play a bullet hell game of spoilers with the internet, and for a little bit of a taste of what's to come, and for the enjoyable few months of pre-release speculation the promotional material lets me be involved in. For me that's a fair trade, but think I get why not everyone would want that.

Nah, you're good. I'm not without bias here, I understand that. It might be that I have an abundance of empathy for Rex because I've met him personally on a couple of occasions some years ago and we have some mutual friends, and he's always come across as very sweet and modest but also talks really intelligently about his approach to art. When Rex was announced I think a lot of people probably thought 'who?' but my reaction was just to totally relax. I remember just feeling a sense of calm wash over me and thinking 'it'll be fine' because it's so obvious to me he lives and breathes this stuff. When I see someone say 'see how this picture is such an improvement' I can't help but imagine him smiling slightly uncomfortably and talking about how they're really for different purposes and he still likes the original, but the new design enables them to do a lot more with it, etc etc. That's where I'm coming from

Ha, I remember that was one I had to get a hint on in 1997. Anyway, yeah, I think I've played all the Monkey Island I 'need' to play before ReMI. I'm intimately familiar with the first two as I tend to replay them every few years, and I've been watching parts of some plays on YouTube. CMI I'm almost as but not quite so familiar with, have also watch some plays of that. Escape I've watched bits and pieces but honestly I just don't really want to play it at the moment, I think it will annoy me. It deserves to be played when I'm more of a mind to give it a chance. I replayed Tales for the first time since it came out and mostly liked it, but my feelings about it have mellowed in both directions: the parts I liked most I not like less, and the parts I liked least I now like more. Over all I think it's 'good', and occasionally very good. I'm ready. Gimme ReMI.

Yeah, there really is a sense of some people creating for themselves a personal hell where they're being offered something that seemed vanishingly unlikely 6 months ago, but can't see past their own preconceptions and expectations to enjoy the moment, even cautiously. I mean even I approached the announcement with caution - not because of the art style, but because I haven't always felt excited by how Ron has talked about his wishes for a sequel in the past. But am I willing to put those doubts aside to be excited we're getting it at all? Obviously! I want to shake people and tell them 'look, maybe you'll end up liking it, maybe not, but let your preconceptions of what it should be go and just try to enjoy the ride, you'll be happier' but I don't feel like it'll get through. BUT, that said, that forum, just like this forum, isn't the whole story. I've seen so many twitter comments from people saying they're coming around on the art, and Ron himself has said that people who tested the game found the style shocking at first but tended to really like it by the end. We know some regulars here initially cool on the art are warming to the style, too. Even I who was fine with the art style from the start, find myself more impressed with it the more we see. I am a bit sad to hear about Adventure Gamers forum, I'd have hoped to have seen a bit more excitement over there, but what can you do.

I really like this take on the previous design too. I imagine it went through a fair amount of iteration. I wonder if at first Rex tried doing something else with the front of the hair but Ron said he wanted it just like that old piece, heh. Sorry, didn't mean to come off as hostile to your point, though. I suppose another reason for differences is the apparently older Guybrush we have for the game - and possibly some aspects of the plot we're not yet aware of so. I feel like this guybrush is both physically and mentally in a different place to the one of previous games.

I'd suggest that possibly this is less about experience and more about function. Rex was already a pretty experienced artist a decade ago, and around that time he was artistically leading projects like Tearaway and was already winning awards for his work. Of course, artists of all kinds are always developing and growing, but I'm still somewhat sceptical of an idea that he looked back on that old piece of art and decided to fix what he saw as issues. He clearly made the new version with reference to it, that much is obvious when you compare the colours and the hair shape and so on. But context is important. The portrait as you point out wasn't a commissioned piece of art, and nor was it something intended to work within a game. It was simply a piece of fan art, which he made out of love for the character. Clearly Ronzo thought that original portrait was good enough to call it the coolest guybrush he's ever seen, and while we're free to disagree (I think it's fine, but the portrait doesn't blow me away like it did Ron), there's no denying he's something of an authority on the subject of Guybrush. But yeah, anyway I guess what I want to say is that I think it's a bit unfair to compare the merit of the two images, similar in many ways though they are, and then attribute the differences in the second one to experience and artistic growth. They were both made for very different purposes, and I think that's the best explanation for why they hit different. (e.g. I suspect the reason that the portrait 'doesn't look like it could show a lot of different emotions' is that it doesn't need to, it's a static portrait, not because Rex figured out how to draw expressive-looking faces with 10 more years of art experience)

Everyone's different, though? Like I said, I don't know that I fully follow the logic of that study, and I definitely don't tend to, say, want to know the twists and turns of a film's plot in advance. But I can see how there are situations where knowing something about what to expect can increase my enjoyment. Case in point: I really like No Man's Sky. Not the subsequent billions of patches later version we have now (it's fine, I check in occasionally and I think it still works) but original, vanilla No Man's Sky, I had a really nice time with. And I think it's because I looked at everything I could about that game before it came out. And that helped me understand that the version of the game that the media outlets were often describing and that the hype machine had spun out of control with was not the more modestly ambitious thing the devs were actually pushing. That's not to say the devs didn't make some misjudgement in how they messaged stuff, but it was clear by the end they really wanted to temper people's expectations of what the game was which had sort of run amok. I was looking forward to the game because I'd looked a bit closer and seen that what I should expect is a cool first person game where I fly a spaceship around lonely but pretty environments with a nice, slow chilled out pace, and not some epic galaxy spanning adventure of incredible proportions. Knowing some limited amount of information about what I'm about to experience sometimes can help me to meet the thing on its own terms. I'm less interested if it's a totally new thing, because then I am already loaded with zero expectations. But when we're talking about a sequel, especially one saddled with a weight of nostalgia, then especially then I often consider it beneficial to know a little of what I'm getting into. Not like... a plot synopsis, or important twists. Just a flavour of it. To me, nothing they're going to show before release can possibly spoil ReMI for me. Because I'm confident they won't show anything they feel is important to keep secret. All it can do is whet my appetite. And for me I think what makes me confident they have the balance right is: so far everything I've seen raises more questions than it answers. There's satisfaction to be found in having those questions answered, so I'm already more invested in playing than I was this time last week. Take the latest one, a few questions that weren't in my head this time last week, but now are: I want to know the answers to these. I'm happy and invested. I know it's not for everyone, and there's also enjoyment to be found in going into stuff totally unseen, but... well, like I said, everyone's different.

Idle soundtrack thought as I prepare to sleep: love the snippets we've heard so far. But I hope as well as the kind of background, slightly noodly pieces which are more about mood setting we're also gonna hear some really memorable new themes and musical set pieces in this game. I'm sure we will, I'm just aching to hear them. As much as I love the more background stuff it was the team's melodic sensibilities that really had the biggest influence on me as a composer, and ah, I really want to hear it.

I actually *kinda* like this as a way to explain Guybrush getting ready for a relationship. The symbolism doesn't totally work for me because Guybrush would also have to be some sort of monster to keep Elaine trapped as a statue just because that's treasure, but I can certainly see how by going out of his way and risking death to fix the problem he caused he is showing growth, and a commitment to the relationship that we maybe haven't really seen from him before. But I just wish we'd got to see Elaine's journey there, too. I don't know that I agree that Elaine was ready for a relationship and it was just Guybrush who needed to become ready. The only way I can read MI1 is that both of them jumped into that relationship without giving it very much thought, and things fell apart rather predictably before MI2. What I'd like to have a bit more on-screen is Elaine sorting out her feelings about Guybrush. With ReMI they have a unique chance to revisit this. If it is indeed set many years after their last encounter with LeChuck, and as it appears, we're dealing with somewhat older characters, there's plenty of scope for the passion to have gone from the relationship even if they are still married. Maybe things have become rather rote and routine now. Maybe the game will end with them finding a way to rekindle the love they had before, and it'll be sweet Maybe the game will end with them parting, but reconciled as friends, and realising that's a little sad, but actually okay. I think about the ending of Full Throttle a lot. I LOVE it, how Ben and Mo had obvious romantic tension between them, but ultimately it's unrealised - and it's a little sad, but also feels very real. Sometimes even if you want it to work, it just can't work. It's the wrong moment, people aren't where they need to be in their lives, people aren't able to sacrifice enough of themselves to make it work, whatever it is. I guess I'm just really craving an interpretation of their relationship since MI2 which is more than just 'they're together, they're meant to be together, and that's that.' It's fine if the ultimate out come is that they're still together, or get back together or whatever. I just want the game to acknowledge in some way that them being together isn't a given, an inevitability, or the natural order of things. To Tales' credit I think it hinted at this with Morgan, and had some nice 'in another life, this relationship might also have worked' moments, but it still feels a bit at arms length from actually addressing the Elaine-Guybrush romantic dynamic.