Eldritch Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by Datheus Homosexuality is not inborn. Period. End of discussion. No no no! It is NOT there at birth. And you know why? Because you're a soft-headed little sack of flesh. Your brain is so underdeveloped at the point in the your life... Good that you're leaving room for debate. You really should be careful with absolute statements like that, or at least back up your position with something other than just opinion. Love is not something born out of flesh and blood. It's not born out of the way cells are flinging chemicals back and forth. How many trees do you see that are in love? Love is born out of the mind. Love is a man-made concept. You can love anyone, male or female, whether you're gay or straight. Homosexuality deals with which gender you are [physically or sexually] attracted to. There is evidence for it being related to an overabundance of certain chemicals (testosterone, I believe). Other evidence supports presence of chemicals or conditions in the womb, and there is evidence to support it being genetic as well. Homosexuality isn't something that comes as a package deal at birth. But it isn't a choice either. At least not by definition. You can tell a person to stop "being gay". They can do it by definition. They won't be happy (that is the key here), but a gay person can stop seeing people of their own gender. Again with the absolute statements. You can tell a person to "stop being gay," sure... but if they listen, all they'll really stop doing is dating guys (or girls if they're female), or at least will hide it from you. They wouldn't actually stop "being gay," they would just not express it (if they even listened to you at all, which I don't see happening). It's not much different than when some battered wife refuses to leave her abusive husband. You can convince her to move out, but will she ever really stop loving him? It's not the same at all. People in abusive relationships that don't leave do so for a couple reasons : 1) They are afraid to leave. 2) They rationalize away the behavior. 3) They feel "dependent" on the abuser in some way. Yes, it's exactly the same. We're not talking about who's sticking what where. We're talking about love and happiness. Keep that in mind. Love and hapiness can be achieved in any relationship, whether heterosexual or homosexual. It's not love and happiness that causes people to be gay or straight. Argue about it all you want, but love is love is love. It's an emotion born out of our mind. You can't fully define homosexuality (nor heterosexuality) without being able to completely understand the human mind. And none of you do. No one does. Actually, there are some clear definitions for homosexual and heterosexual. If you feel these definitions fail to define it in some way, please explain further. Homosexuality has nothing to do with your genes. I can almost guarantee you that there is NOT a chromosome on your DNA that marks down whether you're homosexual or not. There is NOT a chromosome that marks down what you will find attractive or beautiful in life. There just isn't! If there was, our culture wouldn't have evolved the way it has over these thousands of years. You sure do love those absolute statements... Logically, if there is a gene that causes one to be heterosexual, it is reasonable to expect that there is one that causes homosexuality. The fact that our culture has evolved the way that it has alone is proof enough of our diversity, not just of sexual orientation but in all things. If we were all the same, there would be no culture (or we would all share the same culture). A gay man can decide if he wants to see other men or not. If he chooses not to, they he will "learn" to be straight. People just get used to routines over time. But the question here is whether it will make him HAPPY. If it makes him HAPPY then he never really was gay. A gay person can decide if they want to see other gay people. If they choose not to, he/she will not "learn" to be straight anymore than you "learned" to be straight. But if he's just denying what truely makes him happy, then he really is gay. You're contradicting yourself here - you said if he was gay and forced himself to not see other men, he would "learn" to be straight. How can one be truly gay or straight if it is only a learned behavior? There have been tests done that provide strong evidence of the fact that sexual orientation is not a learned behavior. I believe I posted something about it (with a link) in another thread... I can dig it up if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 Originally posted by Datheus Homosexuality is not inborn. Period. End of discussion. Well boys, you heard him. 'Jais, PM Matt, tell him we're locking the thread. Matter of fact, tell him we're locking it and moving it to the swamp. In fact, let's move the whole Senate to the Swamp. 'Jais, PM the President and tell him we're surrendering our position. No. Wait. Don't PM Matt and the President yet. [/A Few Good Men Mode] Somehow I doubt you have the credentials to convince us of this. Originally posted by Datheus Love is born out of the mind. But isn't love just a neuro-chemical reaction generated in correlation to our life experiences? That's one hypothesis, anyway. Originally posted by Datheus Homosexuality isn't something that comes as a package deal at birth. But it isn't a choice either. At least not by definition. Then if it is something that one has no control over, that leaves biological imperative. Don't biological imperatives have origins of heredity? Originally posted by Datheus Argue about it all you want, but love is love is love. It's an emotion born out of our mind. Then why don't people generally "fall in love" with random genders? Originally posted by Datheus You can't fully define homosexuality (nor heterosexuality) without being able to completely understand the human mind. I disagree. I think that it can be defined with a partial understanding of the mind. We understand gravity and the speed of light, but we do not fully understand the universe. Originally posted by Datheus And none of you do. No one does. Poor argument. That same argument can be applied in any field of science... "No one can know for sure" anything. That's true only in the sense that nothing can ever be 100% proven. But if we are to just accept this, it begs the question, "why bother?" If we settled for that attitude we might never have even developed stone tools 100,000 years ago. Originally posted by Datheus Homosexuality has nothing to do with your genes. I can almost guarantee you that there is NOT a chromosome on your DNA that marks down whether you're homosexual or not. The only way you could possibly do that is to map the entire human genome. Or at least study a mapped human genome. There is already indication that genetic coding can influance sexual orientation. There is also evidence that suggests prenatal and postnatal environment influances sexual orientation. Originally posted by Datheus There is NOT a chromosome that marks down what you will find attractive or beautiful in life. There just isn't! Why couldn't there be? Originally posted by Datheus If there was, our culture wouldn't have evolved the way it has over these thousands of years. Why not? I can point you to evidence by a leading neuroscientist that suggests what we find appealing is linked to wiring in the brain and not dissimilar from what others find appealing. This would indicate that it must be coded in DNA in order to be replicated for the next generation. Originally posted by Datheus Don't get so caught up in the technicallity of it. The randomness of the heart and of the mind is what makes humanity beautiful. We're starting to find that the mind isn't as random as people like to think. And the heart is just a muscle for circulating blood and plasma... it doesn't really care about sexual orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted September 7, 2003 Author Share Posted September 7, 2003 Datheus, Homosexuality is not inborn. Period. End of discussion. Then stick your neck out and provide a rational explination for the results of the evidence linking active homosexuals with a marked brain difference that I have referenced several times. I'm guessing your thinking it was a fluke...? I'm sorry if scientific knowledge is making your view of the world less beautiful and 'random'. I certainly don't share your view. Learning more about how the universe works, including our own inner workings, only makes everything I see and experience more intreaging and - indeed - beautiful. Argue about it all you want, but love is love is love. It's an emotion born out of our mind. Love is a different topic. Love and sex can often be intertwined, but it's possible for sex to be experienced with a TOTAL seperation from love. (Of course we have to assume we are all working with the same definition of the word 'love') I'm still not sure I'd totallly agree with you on the above statement, but I'd say it's more possible for 'love' to be more 'born out of the mind', as you say, than sexual preference... TO clarify this, I would theorise that the people who you end up falling in love with could be influenced as much by upbringing as well as your biological make-up. However, I would say 'sexual preference' in and of itself is prodominantly linked to bio-logical make-up. Not only does this make sense (at least to me), but the evidence clearly supports this. Don't get so caught up in the technicallity of it. If homosexuals weren't viewed in a negative light by MANY people in this world, I don't think I would be SO eager to discuss the technicalities of homosexuality. But I would still be interested, and as I've already said, I would not be worried about my world view being 'de-mistified' by finding the answers... P.S. I'm having trouble trying to find ways to describe the attitude of people towards homosexuality. If I say that people think it's 'wrong', they object to the word 'wrong'. If I say people think it's a defect, again, they object to the word 'defect'. So far, the only word they will not dispute is the word 'sin'. i.e. they think that homosexuality is 'sinful'. But as I've already said, I can't personally relate to such a word. I only know right and wrong. But what is 'sin'. It is technically going against the word of God - sure. But it is also 'wrong' - surely? Disobeying God is never RIGHT - so it must be wrong. So sin = wrong. And so if homosexuality = sin therefore you clearly imply homosexuality = wrong - surely...? But anyway, I'll stick with the term 'viewed in a negative light' - to try and not offend people... No. Wait. Don't PM Matt and the President yet. [/A Few Good Men Mode] Haha. Good one. What a top-draw film DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED?!! YOUR GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 [ Since I'm in the non-religious thread, I'll try my hand at secular arguments again. ; ) ] Speaking of "learned behavior" here is a wild theory.. and no, I'm not a geneticist, so feel free to correct me. ; ) What if our sexual orientation happens later in life? What I'm saying is... little kids aren't sexually attracted to stuff are they? The reason is that they don't have the right hormones in sufficient quantities for this to occur. When a person goes through puberty (as they enter their teens.. girls usually before boys) they start to "notice" people of the opposite sex. Whereas a few years earlier they would be saying "girls have cooties" they are now saying "girls are cute!" So perhaps all homosexuality is simply the hormonal changes associated with puberty occur differently (and if you believe that homosexuality is a disorder, then you would see this as a "malfunction" of the normal processes of puberty). So most people end up being attracted to the opposite sex during/after puberty, and a few end up attracted to the same sex. This could also explain bisexuality (a different kind of imbalance). But then if this is true, it begs the question (how would we ever know? we'd have to monitor hormones of people before and after and see if they ended up gay, straight, or bi). Also, it begs the question of whether or not a person's orientation could be "changed" with hormonal therapies (though perhaps the initial changes eventually sets a person in a "pattern" that can't be changed). People who undergo "sex-change operations" (technically you can't change your sex, because that is based on your chromosomes, but you can change your physical appearance) can also take hormone therapy to become more "manly" or "womanly" (I don't say masculine or feminine, because these are thought of as culturally constructed behaviors). Just a wild theory here... The behavior theory is usually explained as a person in very early childhood is sexually abused or is exposed to homosexuality from their parents or relatives and this "programs" them to become homosexual. Of course, this too would require studies and since there are so many possible factors, it would be harder to determine if this were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Love is a man-made concept. You can love anyone, male or female, whether you're gay or straight. I don't think love is a man-made concept. Animals fall in love too, I'm pretty sure they do, at least? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldritch Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Think about what love is. Some animals mate for life - but is that really love, or some kind of genetic inclination to protect the young and continue to produce more offspring? Love was invented by us. It's our concept - our attempt to describe a phenomena that can cause many otherwise rational, logical people to act irrationally and illogically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 lol, when i said "i guess" I was just saying it, it had no meaning at all. About love, i dont think your born with it. Like for example, if your surrounded by hate, and never shown love, or barley any love while your growing up, will you love? Probably not, or at least untill you are shown love. Or... maybe you are born loving, but then you change because of whats arround you... Why couldn't there be? Is there a gene that says your heterosexual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Is there a gene that says your heterosexual? More chemicals than anything else. Since obviously your parents are heterosexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Is there a gene that says your heterosexual? No. Is homosexuality morally right? Absolutely. Why? Because it's what you are, and it's harmless (except from elements that also apply to heterosexuals). You're right, a lesbian girl can date a boy. But a lesbian dating a boy is not thus a straight girl. She's acting straight, but at the bottom, her sexual orientation will remain the same. She may have lots and lots of fun with her "boyfriend", but in the end it won't be more beneficial to her than having a regular friend or best friend. Why? It's not love. Homosexuality is allright. It's the homophobes who should be cured or "dropped on a remote island". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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