RAVEN: 1st person Q to anyone on the dev team if any here

[Bad_karma_2one]

In the demo there is no otion to select 1st person or 3rd person lightsabre view as there was in JK2:JO, I have to say i got used to the 1st person view and really liked it, why has this option been removed, will it be in the final version or will it be in a patch, or is there something i can type into the console to activate it.

 

I really dont want responces from ppl saying that 1st person lightsabre view is crap, I LIKE IT, so is there any way to enable it

[StormHammer]

I would say that if it's not in the demo, then it is unlikely to be in the full game. The demo seems to be pretty 'feature complete'. I think that perhaps with the range of new moves and customisation options for your character that it may have been too difficult to implement 1st person sabers effectively.

 

It would be good to hear word from the devs on this one, though.

[Bad_karma_2one]

The thing is, there is probably a way to do it through the console though, just need to know what to type

[Kurgan]

Don't lose all hope just yet guys... there IS a console cvar called CG_FPLS " 1 ".

 

In JK2, this cvar only worked in multiplayer, but it did work (at least in 1.04 it did). So perhaps it may also work in MP in JA.

 

 

Similarly, the dismemberment adjustment cvar(s) are disabled in the demo, but obviously will be usable in the full version.

 

Unless the devs say "No, it's not in there" I'm going to assume that there's a way to enable it in the full version. Would be nice to know for sure though. That will be one of the first things I try when I get the game. ; )

[Chuahtemoc]

The saber staff and the dual lightsabers would be hard to use in first person, considering the fact that you need extra manueverability and it makest two-on-ones more realistic.

 

i mean in JO i used to win two on one battles all the time, however, it didnt look so realistic to have one guy slashing away at me while i turn to the other guy, in the essence i should have died in one stroke. however, a volley of force pushing, grips, and the like, two on ones were okay-ish. Now, with two sabers or two ends of a saber, you can have pretty good looking two on ones. they wouldnt look good in first, now, would they? lol

 

I see how you can get used to that sort of thing, though, i'm not making fun of you or anything.

[Kurgan]

All FPLS 1 did in JK2 MP was put the camera in more or less the same spot that it was for the guns.

 

This would make no difference for the Dual or Saberstaff sabers, except it would have a different "feel" to it, since you'd have to get used to not seeing the animations for the moves happening (you'd just feel like you were running/strafing or jumping but your view would stay centered).

 

Where it would come in handy, would be for taking screenshots, or for blocking blaster shots (many have already complained about how it seems harder to block with the non-single sabers).

 

Plus some people just prefer it, and if they use single saber primarily (or dual sabers or saberstaff with one blade turned off) why not?

 

It's sort of like Guns in third person. Who honestly plays like that anyway? It's much easier to use guns in first person mode. So why not just remove third person guns? I mean, by the same logic.

[Spider AL]

It's sort of like Guns in third person. Who honestly plays like that anyway? It's much easier to use guns in first person mode. So why not just remove third person guns? I mean, by the same logic.

Back in the days of JK1, most really skilled players used guns in third person mode. Force powers are much easier to use in a wider field of vision. And one got pretty accurate after a while, so much so that first person felt restrictive. One can carry this over to JK2, and no doubt to JA. And one gets a crosshair in third, in these games. Something that wasn't in JK1.

 

That's why not, tbh.

[Chuahtemoc]

hell yeah. I play in third with guns all the time, man. I love the fact that you have the wide view of everything around you PLUS the sensitivity is higher in third. i mean, everything feels more responsive . you have the ability to charge your shot, do a flip and release in mid-air. not only is it a hot as hell effect, its a great fakeout and i used to do it all the time with my trusty bryar back in JK2. So i'm all for guns in third.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Kurgan

It's sort of like Guns in third person. Who honestly plays like that anyway? It's much easier to use guns in first person mode. So why not just remove third person guns? I mean, by the same logic.

If the targeting recticle was accurate in third person, I'd definitely play that way. As long as you could point and fire, there really isn't much difference between the two.

[Kurgan]

Back in the days of JK1, most really skilled players used guns in third person mode. Force powers are much easier to use in a wider field of vision. And one got pretty accurate after a while, so much so that first person felt restrictive. One can carry this over to JK2, and no doubt to JA. And one gets a crosshair in third, in these games. Something that wasn't in JK1.

 

That's why not, tbh.

 

I disagree. The "wider field of view" you speak of was totally irrelevant, since you could use Force Seeing with the Map to see the positions of EVERYONE on the map, thus negating any usefulness of seeing two extra feet around you.

 

That and the lack of a crosshair in third person mode (I know, I know you could Zoom the overlay map to max to make a makeshift crosshair) made it less useful than first person for guns, and I wasn't a bad player in my prime either. ; )

 

And finally, unlike JK2 and JA where the powers are mostly "gunlike" in their execution (ie: tap the button and it "happens"), the JK1 and MotS powers were "lock on" type powers. That is, you'd hold the key when they were in your field of view and a pulsating color coded circle would appear on them when they were within range. Releasing the key in time (before they got out of range or use a countering power) triggered the power.

 

This is how Blind, Pull, Push (MotS), Grip, Throw, Chain Lightning (MotS), all worked. Thus in first person mode it was far easier to get the "sweet spot" for targeting I felt. It was also (like in JK2) easier to block blaster bolts from this perspective.

 

I only knew of one or two people who preferred guns in 3rd person (for the reasons you mentioned actually) and the same number of people who preferred 1st person saber (for purposes of immersion and realism).

[Spider AL]

I disagree. The "wider field of view" you speak of was totally irrelevant, since you could use Force Seeing with the Map to see the positions of EVERYONE on the map, thus negating any usefulness of seeing two extra feet around you.

You may disagree all you like, but the fact remains that having a wider perspective allowed one to execute grip and other such locks on the fly more effectively. That was how it STARTED. Players like myself soon learned the inherent value of having a wide perspective, however. One has an eye on one's opponents more of the time. One has greater reference points in the world around one. One is more able to judge distance in terms of attacking range, jumping range and level. One has an eye on one's opponents vertical disposition in the area around one. The map was fine, but poor in terms of reporting where one's foes were on the z-axis. And since JO didn't HAVE a map, that made third personing that much more important.

 

That and the lack of a crosshair in third person mode (I know, I know you could Zoom the overlay map to max to make a makeshift crosshair) made it less useful than first person for guns, and I wasn't a bad player in my prime either. ; )

Heh, I have no doubt that you were a good player, Kurgan. Quite frankly though, the best players I knew went without crosshairs. (and without zooming to max, which would defeat the point of the overlay map in high level games, wouldn't it) Crosshairs are an irrelevance when aiming and firing becomes instinctive, which it does at the highest levels. I managed to master that after a bare few games. Truly, the crosshair is a pointless crutch, much easier to get rid of than most people would realise.

 

This is how Blind, Pull, Push (MotS), Grip, Throw, Chain Lightning (MotS), all worked. Thus in first person mode it was far easier to get the "sweet spot" for targeting I felt. It was also (like in JK2) easier to block blaster bolts from this perspective.

Blocking blaster bolts? Rarely happened in MP. As to your lockon point, the angular range of the lockon was greater than the reticle often made it appear. In third person one could flash a grip on out of the corner of one's eye faster than fun. Your assertion that first person made lockons easier is simply untrue, quite the opposite. One rarely had to face directly towards one's foe to get a lockon, and most high speed maneuvers made such orientation undesirable. Why I could tell you tales of BGJ FF... ahhh. Those were the days.

 

I only knew of one or two people who preferred guns in 3rd person (for the reasons you mentioned actually) and the same number of people who preferred 1st person saber (for purposes of immersion and realism).

As I've mentioned earlier, the very good players that I was aware of played in third. Certainly I knew of players that played in first. Some of my best friends played in first. Until I showed them what third was capable of.

 

First = Immersion? Hmm. That reminds me of a lad I once spoke to, he was using Tavion as his skin. I asked him, why did he use the skin of a woman when he was in fact a man? Not that there was anything wrong with it, I was merely curious, as I like to use male skins myself, as I am a male. He said that he didn't like looking at Kyle's bottom waving around in front of him all the time. Hmm, I thought, there is such a thing as getting TOO involved with a game...

 

But you want immersion? Fine and dandy. However, First Person = Inferior view? A resounding yes! I certainly wouldn't be up in arms if joystick support was removed from JA. It would perhaps encourage some silly people to change to a better control system. Likewise, the lack of first person sabres is a good thing. Now all they have to do is remove first person guns...

[Kurgan]

Hey, SA, I know we both love to debate, but it's late, so I'm not at my best, I hope you don't mind. ; )

 

You may disagree all you like, but the fact remains that having a wider perspective allowed one to execute grip and other such locks on the fly more effectively.

 

The map gave you the widest possible perspective, which was my point. You couldn't execute grip behind your back could you?

 

One has an eye on one's opponents more of the time.

 

Map.

 

One has greater reference points in the world around one.

Map. Plus your visual range is obstructed partially by your body anyway, a trade off to see partially behind your back.

 

One is more able to judge distance in terms of attacking range, jumping range and level.

 

For Jumping yes, although using first person mode you learn the proper timing anyway with practice. Years of playing FPS games with no first person mode will do that for you. Granted, years of playing console games in third person view alone may give you similar practice with the other aspect.

 

One has an eye on one's opponents vertical disposition in the area around one.

 

Only to a very limited extent on the sides and directly behind you, as I mentioned. Seeing+Map already allows you to know everyone's position relative to you on the map and what direction they are facing at any given time.

 

The map was fine, but poor in terms of reporting where one's foes were on the z-axis.

 

I agree, it only showed one "floor" at a time, the one you were on. But then using third person view didn't tell you if people were below you did it? All it would tell you is if somebody was trying to sneak up directly behind you or parallel to you on the sides (and if you used Seeing+Map you would already know they were coming up long before they got that close.

 

And since JO didn't HAVE a map, that made third personing that much more important.

 

I agree, that third person viewpoint is much more useful in JK2 and JA. Primarily because of the lack of a map feature, and because of the third person crosshair addition. The acrobatic moves are a little easier to "follow" when you're in third person, although with practice a person can learn to time it correctly with 1st person just as well (so I'm told).

 

I'm a traditionalist, I play sabers in third person, guns in first. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use what works best for YOU, which I think is the entire point here.

 

On the one hand, it's been argued that first person sabers are "useless" and therefore it's a good thing that Raven nixed them (we're assuming they were nixed for the sake of argument... if the demo is a hint), whereas I argued that that's like saying third person guns are useless.

 

So in a sense, you're arguing FOR my point, because you're making a case that a seemingly little used feature is actually considered preferable to certain people.

 

I can see Raven's point of not using First Person Lightsaber from a purely aesthetic perspective.

 

Why go to all the trouble of creating lots of flashy, cool animations of players flipping around and doing all kinds of matrix crap, if nobody will ever see it because they are in first person mode? And you can't make the camera spin around and make people throw up. Enough people already don't like the "view bob" that they publicized how to turn that off.

 

THAT, I can understand. That and, they have all these wonderful customizable skins, but they didn't want to put in an equal number of headless or semi-transparent versions of each one (what a pain that would be) so they just made it Kyle's hands, which again, removes the possiblity of you seeing all the wonderful skin work they did. So as a showpiece of the artwork, the third person viewpoint should be encouraged as much as possible from their perspective.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, obviously. ; )

 

Heh, I have no doubt that you were a good player, Kurgan. Quite frankly though, the best players I knew went without crosshairs.

 

See, that's what I don't understand. Why is turning off your crosshair a sign of superior skill? Because it's a "crutch"?

 

Real life firearms have what are commonly referred to as "iron sights" (because they're part of the metalwork of the gun). A person is expected to use them to sight along the barrel as an aide for targetting.

 

Now it may be impressive to see a person firing their gun accurately without using the iron sights, but isn't that their purpose? It was not as if crosshair = autoaim (I never used autoaim, it just annoyed me).

 

The point about the map crosshair was just an old trick somebody mentioned once... if you zoomed the map to max, the little red indicator that represented you would be centered on the screen, and in third person mode, this was just about right to use as a crosshair.

 

I never used it myself, and in fact that is why I asked why would anybody use it, and the person told me that they came up with it because they wanted to use third person all the time.

 

Crosshairs are an irrelevance when aiming and firing becomes instinctive, which it does at the highest levels.

 

I imagine so. Likewise there are people who can shoot targets blindfolded or behind their backs. With sufficient practice a person can become skilled at just about anything if they are willing to put in the time and effort.

 

Sort of like how people could become good players with 1000 pings. ; )

 

I managed to master that after a bare few games. Truly, the crosshair is a pointless crutch, much easier to get rid of than most people would realise.

 

See my example about the iron sights. Notice how when you use the Disruptor Rifle (or the ST Rifle Scope in MotS) it forces you into a first person perspective. Because those weapons are about accuracy.

 

With third person view, you're more likely to rely on weapons with splash damage (shooting somebody with the concussion rifle in JK wasn't too hard, the blast radius was so big) or waste ammo by "sweeping" your shots into place. With first person, you can just point and shoot with far less adjustment. Blocking blaster shots happens a lot, and you can line it up just perfectly as you move in for the kill.

 

I liked how in JK you could switch from first to third on the fly, but the game was designed with the idea that you would use first person all the time, with a special option to allow third person auto camera for the saber. This was a hint that the developers felt that many people would like the third person lightsaber and they did. JK2 retained the ability to choose, but we lost it in Multiplayer (until the Cvar command was revealed).

 

Now suddenly we lose first person saber again in Single Player (and first person for melee is lost as well).

 

And anyway, what about people who prefer the "Immersion factor" of first person view?

 

Blocking blaster bolts? Rarely happened in MP.

Ha! If you ever used the lightsaber in FF guns games, you'd have blocked a few bolts in your time. I certainly blocked my share!

 

In CTF games it would happen quite often. Lots of people would charge a saberist with their guns blazing, because of the fact that you could get through if you were to land a crotch shot or use the secondary repeater. Thus blocking bolts was essential (until you could get close enough to pull or do other Force nastiness to them).. that is unless you had a gun to switch to and blast them.

 

Don't get me wrong, sabers didn't quite have the versatility we've come to expect in JK2/JA in Free For All combat, but there were still plenty of people who used saber only (and MotS made this far more common).

 

As to your lockon point, the angular range of the lockon was greater than the reticle often made it appear. In third person one could flash a grip on out of the corner of one's eye faster than fun.

 

So you're saying a person could lock on with grip behind their back? Or as you were running by? There's a subtle distinction here, I just wanted you to clarify.

 

Your assertion that first person made lockons easier is simply untrue, quite the opposite. One rarely had to face directly towards one's foe to get a lockon, and most high speed maneuvers made such orientation undesirable. Why I could tell you tales of BGJ FF... ahhh. Those were the days.

 

Yes, they were. ; )

 

One still had to face them, or again, are you claiming that you could grip a person behind your back?

 

 

As I've mentioned earlier, the very good players that I was aware of played in third.

 

Communities are usually bigger than people admit, but maybe you and I are thinking of the same people? ; )

 

Certainly I knew of players that played in first. Some of my best friends played in first. Until I showed them what third was capable of.

 

Reminds me of Vagabond and his stories of the glory days of playing JK sabers in first person with his joysticks. =)

 

Whatever floats your x-wing man!

 

First = Immersion? Hmm. That reminds me of a lad I once spoke to, he was using Tavion as his skin. I asked him, why did he use the skin of a woman when he was in fact a man? Not that there was anything wrong with it, I was merely curious, as I like to use male skins myself, as I am a male. He said that he didn't like looking at Kyle's bottom waving around in front of him all the time. Hmm, I thought, there is such a thing as getting TOO involved with a game...

 

I don't mean playing as yourself in the game. Here's what I mean. Immersion as in "putting you into the role of the character."

 

When I look around the room or sit at my computer or go to class or whatever, I don't see my own back as I run around doing my daily routine. Not unless I'm watching a video feed of a person following me or staring at two mirrors or something odd like that!

 

Rather, I see my hands, and if I look down, the rest of my body, but not my own face (except in a mirror) and not my own back (again, without the aide of a mirror).

 

Last time I checked there were no mirrors in JK, and only one or two in JK2 (the reflective floor in the demo level and that weird thing with Desann splitting into three).

 

The immersion factor is that I see what the character sees.

 

Maybe through the power of the Force, my character is projecting himself outside his own body to view himself, while simultaneously continuing to control his actions as if his vision were unhampered?

 

We can speculate endlessly...

 

But you want immersion? Fine and dandy. However, First Person = Inferior view? A resounding yes!

 

Like I said, it depends on what you're using it for.

 

In driving games, some people swear that third person is the best. Maybe it is.. for them. Others swear by first person. I like it when games let you choose, thus you can tailor the game to your preferred playing style.

 

Like a trickshooter, with sufficient practice one could overcome an inferior position.

 

I certainly wouldn't be up in arms if joystick support was removed from JA.

 

No, but somebody who was a hardcore joystick player might. Which is the point. People who like to have the option first person are upset that it is (seemingly) being removed. It's not that they're demanding something be coded that never existed in the first place, but rather it's a new game, made by the same team, using the same code base (modified of course) and its been disabled.

 

I'm also the one holding out hope that the option can still be enabled in the final version in Multiplayer. Until that time, I'll reserve criticizing Raven for their oversight.

 

It would perhaps encourage some silly people to change to a better control system.

 

Again, let's turn this around. What if in JA it were discovered that you could only use first person for the lightsabers. Would you be upset? Would you complain? Would you try to design a mod to let you use third person again?

 

Or what if Raven decided to remove the third person option from guns. Would you feel disappointed in the slightest?

 

Likewise, the lack of first person sabres is a good thing. Now all they have to do is remove first person guns...

 

So we'd play the entire third in third person like any good console game. [/just kidding=)]

[BuRn]

geez Kurgan, now THAT is a reply

[Thazac]

Well, you COULD change cg_thirdpersonrange to 0 and get something that resembles first person... Thing is the camera spins with you

 

Anyway, myself I've always preferred using firearms in first person (you don't have your body blocking 1/12th of the screen) and melee weapon in third (more control where you move), whenever that has been a possibility.

Sure, I CAN use melee weapons in first and ranged in third, I've just always liked it better the other way. And you can't see your cool moves in first can you

 

Lastly I've never understood why one should get rid of the crosshair. They seem to get more and more interactive every game and in JO and now JA they move if you get close to an object, showing almost exactly where your projectile will hit.

 

Well, just my 2 cents.

[Nemios]

Originally posted by Thazac

Well, you COULD change cg_thirdpersonrange to 0 and get something that resembles first person... Thing is the camera spins with you

 

To fix the fact the camera spins with you you have to set others cvars:

 

cg_thirdPersonCameraDamp 1

cg_thirdPersonTargetDamp 1

 

and to have the camera at the height of your eyes:

 

cg_thirdPersonVertOffset -4

 

The problem is your skin is not trasparent yet and force speed is unusable 'cause when the world slows around you the camera moves forward and you see yourself from the front

 

Good points Kurgan. You obviously like more 3rd person view but understand our... point of view!

 

Spider Al instead seems to want a flame war calling the others who don't have his opinion "silly people"... bah!

Even if 1st person would be worse there are player that don't play to always WIN and be the best players, but to... PLAY, and enjoy the game the way they like it.

[Kurgan]

Spider Al instead seems to want a flame war calling the others who don't have his opinion "silly people"... bah!

Even if 1st person would be worse there are player that don't play to always WIN and be the best players, but to... PLAY, and enjoy the game the way they like it.

 

He's an opinionated guy, but then so am I. Wouldn't call him a flamer though.. ; )

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Hey, SA, I know we both love to debate, but it's late, so I'm not at my best, I hope you don't mind. ; )

Hey, who is. I haven't been at my best since pre-pubescence.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

The map gave you the widest possible perspective, which was my point. You couldn't execute grip behind your back could you?

The map gave you a useful, but abstract overview. Not a wide perspective in terms of force power usage. As for grip, you could certainly execute it in a wider radius than first person perspective lent itself to. As I said before, one simply couldn't do without third in combination with grip. Say an opponent crosses in front of one at high speed. And you want to grip them. Third person perspective meant that relative to your player model, you gained an extra split second in which to spring a grip on them. In high level games, that was all one needed to win. Think of third person perspective as the widescreen of computer gaming. Nobody who's seen it should ever go back to pan and scan.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Map.

 

Map. Plus your visual range is obstructed partially by your body anyway, a trade off to see partially behind your back.

The map provided precious few reference points to the world around one. I'm sure you'd agree that it'd be difficult to navigate round oasis with ONLY the 2d overlay map to steer by. No, the way people move around maps is certainly dependant on the main viewpoint, be it third or (inferior) first person viewpoint. With regards to the range being obstructed by one's body, negligibly. The benefits far outweighed the costs.

 

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

For Jumping yes, although using first person mode you learn the proper timing anyway with practice. Years of playing FPS games with no first person mode will do that for you. Granted, years of playing console games in third person view alone may give you similar practice with the other aspect.

The contrast was palpable. I trained up using first for guns and third for sabres, like most beginners. However, when my acquaintances mentioned that third was good for guns, and I tried it, all my jumping became superior. It turned out that before, I'd been trying to put a square peg in a square hole... but without being able to see the square peg. Third person allows one to see one's avatar in the world, and to slot him or her into whatever flight path one wishes with greater speed and efficiency. On a side note, third person allowed me to learn new maps and the jumping possibilities of those maps quicker than those who use first person, simply through the fact that in third person view one can more easily see one's relationship to far away objects, platforms, alcoves etc.

 

I really can't stress enough how valuable third person is in terms of RELATING to the game world.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Only to a very limited extent on the sides and directly behind you, as I mentioned. Seeing+Map already allows you to know everyone's position relative to you on the map and what direction they are facing at any given time.

Once again, the map does not make the main view obsolete, and the third person view even less so. When one is straferunning a tight circle around an opponent who is similarly trying to attain the correct angle towards one so that they can grip away like a sithbunny, the third person view is perhaps the only way to orient oneself to one's foe in time. It's too easy to get lost in the 2d world of the map to say that it replaces the advantages of third person view.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

I agree, it only showed one "floor" at a time, the one you were on. But then using third person view didn't tell you if people were below you did it? All it would tell you is if somebody was trying to sneak up directly behind you or parallel to you on the sides (and if you used Seeing+Map you would already know they were coming up long before they got that close.

To an extent it did tell you if people were below you, were they close enough. It showed you a wider view in all directions around your character. Sneaking never occurred in high level games, but at close range, orientation came from the main view. Third gave you a wider view, so there was frankly no contest.

 

Oh, don't forget that it allowed one to look round corners without physically jumping round them. In NF, that was an extra special advantage, which I loved dearly.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

I'm a traditionalist, I play sabers in third person, guns in first. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use what works best for YOU, which I think is the entire point here.

This is the crux of my argument... some people claim that the joystick works best for them, but I argue that they simply haven't made the effort to adapt to a rodent. And no matter how good they become with the stick, they'd be better still, with a mouse.

 

Some things are solely a matter of personal preference, but most things are tangibly better or worse than each other. First vs. Third person perspectives are just such a thing.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

On the one hand, it's been argued that first person sabers are "useless" and therefore it's a good thing that Raven nixed them (we're assuming they were nixed for the sake of argument... if the demo is a hint), whereas I argued that that's like saying third person guns are useless.

Useless? hmm... Maybe a bit harsh. Inferior? Certainly.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

So in a sense, you're arguing FOR my point, because you're making a case that a seemingly little used feature is actually considered preferable to certain people.

Nonsense! The mind is a little used feature, preferable to certain people. Just because a comparable number of people think only with their fists or groins, doesn't mean that those items are any use when it comes to thinking.

 

In this case, the groin/knuckles are the first person sabres, and the brain is third person sabres. Quite clearly superior, and likewise with the guns.

 

As I've said before, if there was no joystick support in JA, I would be happy, because the joystick is inferior, and people who like joysticks and wanted to play the game would have to learn to love a rodent, and in the end they would be better off. Likewise I hope first person sabres are unavailable in JA, because when all you people learn the superiority of watching kyle's bottom, you'll be better off.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

I can see Raven's point of not using First Person Lightsaber from a purely aesthetic perspective.

 

Why go to all the trouble of creating lots of flashy, cool animations of players flipping around and doing all kinds of matrix crap, if nobody will ever see it because they are in first person mode? And you can't make the camera spin around and make people throw up. Enough people already don't like the "view bob" that they publicized how to turn that off.

 

THAT, I can understand. That and, they have all these wonderful customizable skins, but they didn't want to put in an equal number of headless or semi-transparent versions of each one (what a pain that would be) so they just made it Kyle's hands, which again, removes the possiblity of you seeing all the wonderful skin work they did. So as a showpiece of the artwork, the third person viewpoint should be encouraged as much as possible from their perspective.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, obviously. ; )

You seem to be saying I'm right... Which works for me.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

The point about the map crosshair was just an old trick somebody mentioned once... if you zoomed the map to max, the little red indicator that represented you would be centered on the screen, and in third person mode, this was just about right to use as a crosshair.

 

I never used it myself, and in fact that is why I asked why would anybody use it, and the person told me that they came up with it because they wanted to use third person all the time.

Sounds like your friend didn't understand the purpose of the map too clearly. He wasn't characteristic of those that used third person though.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

See, that's what I don't understand. Why is turning off your crosshair a sign of superior skill? Because it's a "crutch"?

Exactly, it's like training wheels on a bike. Helps to teach one how to ride, but becomes a stodgy barrier to freedom after a while.

 

After a certain amount of time, the crosshair is entirely unneccesary. It's annoying too, turn it off, that's my advice.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Real life firearms have what are commonly referred to as "iron sights" (because they're part of the metalwork of the gun). A person is expected to use them to sight along the barrel as an aide for targetting.

 

Now it may be impressive to see a person firing their gun accurately without using the iron sights, but isn't that their purpose?

You forget that firing instinctively from the hip accurately with a sidearm is a most effective commando technique. I think it was William Fairbairn that wrote "Extreme speed and instinctive aim, as opposed to deliberate aim, are essential in combat."

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

And anyway, what about people who prefer the "Immersion factor" of first person view?

Umm... Nonessential I'm afraid. They'd grow used to third person, despite their initial whimsy to the contrary.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

I imagine so. Likewise there are people who can shoot targets blindfolded or behind their backs. With sufficient practice a person can become skilled at just about anything if they are willing to put in the time and effort.

 

Sort of like how people could become good players with 1000 pings. ; )

I know this one! Find a peer to peer game, and host all the time! hehe, j/k.

 

As to aiming without a crosshair, the crosshair becomes a hindrance to speed because one's concious mind is always trying to line the damn thing up with an opponent in a most fiddly manner. Without the crosshair, one can lead-fire more readily, one can snapshot more accurately, all sorts of things.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

See my example about the iron sights. Notice how when you use the Disruptor Rifle (or the ST Rifle Scope in MotS) it forces you into a first person perspective. Because those weapons are about accuracy.

I doubt anyone would argue that sniping is about long-range shooting, which must naturally involve crosshairs. Time is usually taken over a sniping shot, however, which separates it from the necessity for instinctive snapshooting that characterises closer range weapons.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

With third person view, you're more likely to rely on weapons with splash damage (shooting somebody with the concussion rifle in JK wasn't too hard, the blast radius was so big) or waste ammo by "sweeping" your shots into place. With first person, you can just point and shoot with far less adjustment. Blocking blaster shots happens a lot, and you can line it up just perfectly as you move in for the kill.

I'm afraid it's not true that those who don't use crosshairs are less accurate. It merely becomes truly instinctive, so they fire faster, and are equally accurate.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Ha! If you ever used the lightsaber in FF guns games, you'd have blocked a few bolts in your time. I certainly blocked my share!

Ergh! No self respecting leetist would do such a thing! Pulling one's sabre meant one of three things:

 

[*]I'd run out of ammo for a more effective weapon (shame on me, I should have hogged better)

[*]I'd just spawned (In which case, within two seconds flat I should have picked up either a rail or conky)

[*]I decided to show off by killing my opponent with a weak JK1 sabre (bad form)

[/list=1]

 

Either way, it's hardly a situation in which to judge the merits of the viewpoint one is using.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

So you're saying a person could lock on with grip behind their back? Or as you were running by? There's a subtle distinction here, I just wanted you to clarify.

Well duh.

 

The second paragraph in this post goes into the third person advantage when it comes to grip.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Communities are usually bigger than people admit, but maybe you and I are thinking of the same people? ; )

Doubtful, if the people you're thinking of used first person all the time.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Reminds me of Vagabond and his stories of the glory days of playing JK sabers in first person with his joysticks. =)

 

Whatever floats your x-wing man!

No doubt he'd have been even better with a rodent and kyle's bottom.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

I don't mean playing as yourself in the game. Here's what I mean. Immersion as in "putting you into the role of the character."

Semantics! I personally don't want to pretend to be a Jedi. I want to play the game in the manner which is most efficient. Call me mercenary, but the more I win, the more fun I have.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Like I said, it depends on what you're using it for.

 

In driving games, some people swear that third person is the best. Maybe it is.. for them. Others swear by first person. I like it when games let you choose, thus you can tailor the game to your preferred playing style.

It's not an issue of personal preference, any more than holding a rifle the wrong way round is "personal preference." There's a better way of doing things, and a not-so-good way. The latter is logically expendable.

 

Frankly I think that you by yourself have put forward enough evidence in that post to prove that first person sabres is the least desirable of the two options, and therefore is extraneous to requirements.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

No, but somebody who was a hardcore joystick player might. Which is the point. People who like to have the option first person are upset that it is (seemingly) being removed. It's not that they're demanding something be coded that never existed in the first place, but rather it's a new game, made by the same team, using the same code base (modified of course) and its been disabled.

Yes, it's like bemoaning the fact that the game doesn't crash as much, or something. Personally I consider the lack of 1st person sabres to be tantamount to a bugfix. That may seem harsh, but trust me, it's better this way.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

I'm also the one holding out hope that the option can still be enabled in the final version in Multiplayer.

Urgh. What a horrible thought.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan:

 

Again, let's turn this around. What if in JA it were discovered that you could only use first person for the lightsabers. Would you be upset? Would you complain? Would you try to design a mod to let you use third person again?

 

Or what if Raven decided to remove the third person option from guns. Would you feel disappointed in the slightest?

I'd feel disappointed... that I'd been forced to play an obviously inferior viewpoint. That's all.

 

Now... you don't have that problem! Wahaha! j/k.

[Bad_karma_2one]

Just hate 3rd person, always have PLUS IMO in 1st person it lets you be more accurate with sabre attacks, like if you are doing a right to left swipe and you want to get them in the neck or something its easier to do it from 1st person since you have a closer view of it.

 

Anyway i just like 1st person, it lets you look them in the eye so you can aim your thumb easier:D

[Bad_karma_2one]

BUMP:bdroid2:

[The Cheat]

it may be possible through the console, or through a mod later, but i think it would just be better to use 3rd person with the dual sabers and dualblade saber

[Tyler_Durden]

Originally posted by Nemios

To fix the fact the camera spins with you you have to set others cvars:

 

cg_thirdPersonCameraDamp 1

cg_thirdPersonTargetDamp 1

 

and to have the camera at the height of your eyes:

 

cg_thirdPersonVertOffset -4

 

The problem is your skin is not trasparent yet and force speed is unusable 'cause when the world slows around you the camera moves forward and you see yourself from the front

 

The cvars work pretty awesome. It's a shame that raven couldn't implement them into the game but then again it is just a beta. If it is not worked into the final game i would like to think that they are working on a patch. If not i'm sure i could figure out how to make transparent skins and bind the cvars to a key (or in my case a joystick button). Things are looking better and better

[ForceMaster]

Man I love a good debate!!!

 

Both have equally valid points, but Im going to play devil's advocate here.

 

I believe that an effective use of both perspectives shows true mastery of the option. With the elimination of an easily acquired 1st person lightsaber option, LA really limited how far any player can go with this game.

 

Personally I used 1st and 3rd for guns depending on whether the target was on the same z axis that I was on. But predominately used 3rd for lightsaber.

 

I have to concede that to use 3rd on guns was very tricky at first but with time became almost instintive.

 

Then again, iron-sight are very useful in real life, scopes help for accuracy in long-distance. This comes from my military training and supplemental 'sniper' school in GA.

[Kurgan]

The cvars work pretty awesome. It's a shame that raven couldn't implement them into the game but then again it is just a beta. If it is not worked into the final game i would like to think that they are working on a patch. If not i'm sure i could figure out how to make transparent skins and bind the cvars to a key (or in my case a joystick button). Things are looking better and better

 

What are you talking about? Those cvars work in the demo, there is just no transparent skin. Beta?? What's this about a beta?!

 

The demo is the same as the full version, as far as we know (it was made after the game went gold) just that certain features are turned off.

 

Again, I'd point out the cg_FPLS 1/g_FPLS 1 commands that are in the console, they just do nothing (in the demo).

[Tyler_Durden]

Originally posted by Kurgan

What are you talking about? Those cvars work in the demo, there is just no transparent skin. Beta?? What's this about a beta?!

 

The demo is the same as the full version, as far as we know (it was made after the game went gold) just that certain features are turned off.

 

Again, I'd point out the cg_FPLS 1/g_FPLS 1 commands that are in the console, they just do nothing (in the demo).

 

Sorry bout that Kurgan, i meant the demo. I didn't know the demo was made after the game went gold. But hopefully those features you speak of are turned on in the final game. If not, either me or someone else will figure how to do it.

[Nemios]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Again, I'd point out the cg_FPLS 1/g_FPLS 1 commands that are in the console, they just do nothing (in the demo).

 

Well, that's interesting. In JO SP CG_FPLS is not a valid cvar/command while in MP it is.

 

Anyway, before I planned I would have bought this game the day it shipped, now that I know 1st person POV seems to be unavailable I'll wait to hear news if it is available 'cause in the meanwhile I tryed the demo in 3rd and... I didn't enjoy it!

 

Obviously I beated it, but WIN != JOY for me.