Admiral Vostok's plan for SWGB2

[Admiral Vostok]

Well it doesn't take much effort to make myself seem smarter and more superior when you resort to childish names, Frozted. Ouch, by the way.

 

Most RTS games I've played - and I do play quite a lot, I don't know why you think otherwise - have rushing, raiding and large scale battles. This is just how it should be.

[clonedjedi]

I still think I'm an ass so it doesn't matter.

[Darth Windu]

Frozted - and acting the way you are is going to get a total of zero people to listen to you.

[Admiral Vostok]

Anyway, back on topic. I agree there should be some sort of Air and Mech counter infantry, as you can see from my SWGB2 design. But I don't think every single civ should have a rocket trooper as that counter infantry. As Luke's Dad said, ion weapons are a worthy alternative. I think in some cases heavy repeating weapons would make good anti-vehicular weaponry. The Gungan's big boomas, which can be launched by Militiagung other than Jar Jar, seem to perform excellently against Mechs. And looking at other anti-vehicular weaponry the case is still the same. Turbolaser turrets are usually used as anti-air weaponry. Variants of the Hoth Ion Cannon would also be successful.

 

My point is we don't need rocket launchers for every single civ when there are viable alternatives, especially when rocket troopers are not evident in the movies.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - i'd love to see a 'big booma trooper' throw one at a TIE fighter flying at maximum speed...

 

The point is, Rocket Troopers are necessary. The only ion cannons we have seen are rather large and bulky, plus they dont actually destroy anything, just disable it so thats not a good idea. As for repeater troopers, they are better for dealing with massed trooper attacks rather than mechs. Sure, they could do a lot of damage to attacks from Droideka's and AT-PT, but they wouldnt even scratch the larger ones like the AT-TE, whereas in Ep2 we see a rocket shatter one.

[Admiral Vostok]

I wasn't suggesting big boomahs were good against air, I was suggesting they were good against mechs.

 

As for repeaters, if they're no good against vehicles why did the Snowtroopers set one up to shoot at the Millennium Falcon? I think repeaters are actually supposed to be anti-vehicular weaponry, there is not much in the movies to suggest they are anti-personnel.

 

In my design, most civs don't have a trooper that is good against Air. To me this doesn't make sense because troopers aren't meant to be good against Air. Troopers shouldn't be capable of handling every threat. This is the case in most games: if you have a force made entirely of only one class of unit you will be vulnerable to another type of unit. Those civs that do have an anti-air trooper only do so because their mechs are deficient in this regard.

[clonedjedi]

I think rocket troopers would be kinda bad for a Star Wars battle cause once you have a mass of rocket troopers and normal troopers so then you counter everything.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Frozted actually brings up the best point to counter strong anti-air/mech trooper. Civ like the rebels and the wookiees who have very strong trooper are gonna totally impossible to beat in early games. Just massing up rocket and laser troopers.

 

As repeaters, that also makes alot of sense. Repeater weapons should be used against air-units(perhaps not mechs).

[Admiral Vostok]

Well here's another issue:

Windu has taken the idea from C&C:Generals that there should be rocket troopers that are excellent against both aircraft and mechs. However, Aircraft play a bigger role in Star Wars, so does combining the anti-air and anti-mech role into one unit overpower it? I'm thinking yes. There should be separate infantry units to counter mechs and aircraft, not one mega unit that can do both. It worked in C&C:Generals because Air wasn't important enough by itself - GLA don't even have aircraft. But for SWGB2 I think it won't work.

[Darth Windu]

Originally posted by Frozted_MM's

I still think I'm an ass so it doesn't matter.

 

Is that a typo?

 

Vostok - actually i didnt, becuase i dont own the game and have played a whole 1 mission, the first US mission.

 

Anyhow, i didnt say that rocket troopers should be EXCELLENT against mechs and aircraft, mearly that they should be GOOD against them. As i said, i agree that the best anti-Mech weapons should be Mechs, and the best anti-Aircraft weapons should be Aircraft.

 

As for my rocket trooper idea, im going to relate it to the real world. In the US Army, some infantry are equipped with the FIM-92 Stinger SAM. It's lightweight, easy to carry and easy to use, but isnt really powerful nor does it have a long range.

Then you have the Chaparrel missile launcher. Based on an M-113 chassis, it carries a few SAM version of the AIM-9 Sidewinder. The missiles are longer ranged and more powerful than the Stinger, but still on a mobile, armoured chassis.

Then you have the Patriot. A large, semi-mobile SAM system with long range, very powerful SAM's.

 

Getting to the point, the Patriot is better than the Chaparrel, which is better than the Stinger, but all are required for different roles. THAT is why i want the rocket trooper to shoot at air and mechs, because it wont be very powerful or have a long range, but will suffice in the anti-Mech/anti-Aircraft role if you cant bring other Mechs or Aircraft to bear.

 

Any questions?

[Admiral Vostok]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

As for my rocket trooper idea, im going to relate it to the real world.

Why am I not surprised?

 

I could say for the millionth time that Star Wars isn't the real world, but that isn't going to stop you comparing the two, so I'll just roll with it...

 

You make a decent point, but you've slightly missed mine. I don't have a problem per se with rocket troopers essentially. What I object to is their widespread use across all races and civs. One or two civs can have rocket troopers, but all of them should not. There are other, more unique, more characterful, more Star-Warsy weapons for infantry to use on mechs and aircraft. For some suggestions as to what these weapons might be, take a look at my civ design... that's what this thread is about after all .

[Darth Windu]

Well, the point i was making in my comparison to the real world is that infantry anti-aircraft systems arent as powerful as larger systems like base-defence of armoured units.

 

I still think Rocket Troopers would be generic. We have already seen that both the Confederacy and Republic use rockets. We have also seen that Jango Fett uses rockets, and so they are man-portable.

One would think, then, that if the Republic used rocket troopers, so would the Empire. Due to the Rebel's need for equipment, they would too.

The confederacy used them, so it could be assumed that the Federation used them.

Going along this path, that leaves only the Naboo and Wookiees, and i really dont see a problem with them using Rocket Troopers.

 

As for being generic, i do have slightly different variations. For example, due to the lack of a Wookiee Airforce, Wookiee Rocket Troopers are more powerful and have a longer range than all the others. This is to make up for that lack of an airforce and also, realistically, Wookiees could handle larger systems.

The rebels also have systems that are better against Mechs than the other Rocket Troopers to partially make up for their lack of Mechs.

[lukeiamyourdad]

hmmm...Now you've just heavily downpowered the wookiees by not giving them aircrafts.

 

As for your assumption, it's only an assumption. You cannot tell if rockets we're heavily used. I doubt it.

 

Rockets troopers whether or not they're only good or excellent, the simple fact that it can counter both mech and air heavily overpowers trooper oriented civs.

[Admiral Vostok]

The Wookiees don't have any Aircraft? Well that totally goes against the existing EU material, and while I don't condone EU there is no denying the Wookiees will have to be heavily influenced by it. That really makes no sense, Windu. If Wookiees have no air, how can Chewbacca be such a good pilot?

 

But besides, you've said it yourself that there are different rockets that are carried by infantry and vehicles. Therefore, just because a civ has vehicle rockets it doesn't automatically follow that their troopers will carry rockets too. And while Jango Fett carries a single rocket (not several, by the way) I hardly thing the greatest soldier in the galaxy would have the same equipment as ordinary troopers.

 

Your logic doesn't follow, either. Just because the Republic uses rockets doesn't mean the Empire does. The Empire doesn't use Gunships, does it? Due to the Rebel's need for equipment... what does that mean? Everyone needs "equipment". As for the Confederacy and Trade Federation, I suppose you believe the Trade Federation uses sonic weaponry too?

 

Plus as Luke's Dad said, even making them "good" instead of "excellent" against both Air and Mechs is still pretty powerful, and will overpower trooper-strong civs.

[Darth Windu]

Why is the ability of Lucasarts personnel to balance a game always questioned? Do you not believe they have the ability while you do?

 

Anyhow,

Luke - not true. The Wookiee's have never had aircraft in my template, just as the Rebels dont have Mechs and the Hutts dont have Ships. These are done for realism purposes, but also help in that they have the civs more unique. Of course Wookiee ground forces are better at anti-air than other civs, just like the Rebels anti-Mech forces are better than other civs.

 

Vostok - so you're saying that a nation without an airforce cant produce pilots?

 

As for rockets, why do i have to explain this again? The use of Rockets by the Confederacy and Republic show that those sorts of weapons were liked and widely used. We also see that Jango Fett used a rocket. Now, if Jango Fett can carry one Rocket along with the other gear in his backpack, including the Jet's, surely his Clones would be able to carry two or three. Furthermore, if a human can carry two or three, so can a droid.

 

The Empire took over from the Republic and it's weapons. So then, the Empire would already have Rocket's for their infantry, why bother trying to find a new weapon system when the one you have is perfectly capable of doing it's job?

 

The Rebels, because of their desperate situation, would have Rocket Troopers becuase of weapons they either found or removed from dead bodies. Besides, when you're fighting for your survival against a much larger and better-equipped enemy, there isnt much time to invent new weapons.

 

As for the Rocket Troopers being overpowered - NO THEY WONT BE! If all you have as your primary anti-Mech and anti-Aircraft weapons are Rocket Troopers, you're going to be trounced rather quickly. Besides, if the guys at Westwood could balance an anti-Mech/anti-Aircraft Infantry unit, why cant Lucasarts?

[clonedjedi]

No thats not a typo cause I am an ass to all of you

 

 

 

And disabling a unit set as important as mechs is just wrong. Well the guys at Westwood had a huge problem on there hands there civs were unbalanced even after 10 patches they still couldn't balance them really pissing the multiplayer community off.

 

Well the Empire does use rockets ever play JK2?

 

AND YOU CAN'T RELATE A FANTASY WORLD LIKE STAR WARS TO THE REAL WORLD PEOPLE PLAY AND LOVE STAR WARS CAUSE ITS NOTHING LIKE THE REAL WORLD!!!!!

 

Whats next you want to add some tanks and US marines in there as well?

[Darth Windu]

*sigh* let me explain this again. I wasnt relating the units themselves to the real world, but the system. If you look at Star Wars it is still true. For example, Jango's rocket is smaller than the rockets on the Hailfire droid.

As for Star Wars being a fantasy world and all that, it is still built on rules. Some you can bend, others you can break...oh, sorry, wrong film.

 

Anyway, Star Wars battles are still based on the real world. To get ANH's dogfights, GL watched archival WW2 fighter gun-camera footage. To get the 'feel' of the Republic Gunship, GL watched footage of US Army assault helo's. To get the Millenium Falcon's turret guns right, GL watched footage of WW2 Bomber turret guns.

 

See a pattern yet?

 

Oh yeah, as for the Mechs thing, THATS WHY I GAVE REBEL INFANTRY THE ABILITY TO DEPLOY INTO TRENCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pbguy1211]

i can't believe you guys are still debating the same old crap all this time when it will have zero bearing on any future game... if there even is one.

[lukeiamyourdad]

You don't get it Windu. It's so heavily unbalanced. How will wookiees be able to win any island or space maps? How can they do that without an air force?

[Darth Windu]

luke - well, first of all, i think that Space maps for an RTS with infantry in it are a really, really stupid idea, so im just gonna skip that one.

 

As for islands, the Wookiees really arent disadvantaged at all. They have very strong ground forces, with excellent anti-aircraft systems. Furthermore, their Navy is second only to the Gungans, and is far more powerful than most.

Hence, all you need to do is build up your fleet, establish an LZ and insert ground forces.

BTW, the Wookiees can defeat the Gungan Navy, so there's no problems there either.

[pbguy1211]

Kills Self

[Admiral Vostok]

Welcome back pbguy. We don't do this to have an impact on a future game, I do it because I enjoy it.

 

Windu: What the...? Wookiees have a powerful navy? That makes precisely zero sense. They are arboreal. How can they possibly compete in the water with an amphibian race? Kashyyyk is a forest world with few large bodies of water. What are you thinking? As if denying them Aircraft wasn't bad enough when they obviously have Aircraft... now they excel in a field that makes no sense for them to excel in. I challenge you to find a single person anywhere that will agree Wookiees would have no airforce but a strong navy.

 

As for C&C:Generals balancing rocket troopers, Frozted is right, Generals is not the best balanced game in the world and the multiplayer community is suffering because of it. And more importantly Aircraft feature a lot more in SWGB than they do in Generals, so a rocket trooper would be overpowered in SWGB, but not necessarily in Generals.

[Darth Windu]

pbguy - as Vostok said, i dont do this because i think lucasarts will listen to me (though i hope they do), i do it coz its interesting.

 

Vostok - show me where, in the films, it is stated that the Wookiees-

1. Are arboreal

2. Have few large water sources on their home planet

3. Have aircraft

 

The reason i denied the Wookiees an airforce is that they seemed the best candidate, as there are airforces for all of my other civs seen in the films, and to me, the Wookiee homeworld would be a lot like Earth but with jungles, and so a large Navy would be required to defend it, especially if they more-or-less keep to themselves, which can be backed up by the lack of wookiee forces or spacecraft seen in the films.

 

As for C&C, why is it that whenever i say 'C&C', everyone immediately thinks i'm referring to Generals? Westwood has have the Rocket Trooper in every one of its C&C games, and has been balanced each time.

[Admiral Vostok]

My comment on Generals is still relevant to any other Westwood game - there just aren't enough aircraft to warrant a dedicated anti-air expert in any of the C&C, Red Alert or Dune games. In SWGB, Aircraft play a much larger role and as such a rocket trooper would be too good.

 

Windu, you are quite right, it doesn't say those things anywhere in the films. But Wookiees are possibly the most written about race in EU, so I don't see much point in contradicting all of that. EU, as dislikable as some of it may be, is still relevant - especially something as widely taken as fact as Wookiee culture.

 

Besides which, you'd also be making the Wookiees very different to how they appeared in SWGB1, where they had quite good Aircraft and a not so good Navy.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The Wookiees are arboreal. Even though they have huge water-masses, does it necessarily mean they have a huge navy? Does a squirrel living near a pond need to build ship?