{DHU}Screed Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Hex I wuv you! Im sure the rest of the competitive community of FF S/O CTF loves you too! Also tell Battousai I said Hi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[div3rse.syn] Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 All I have to say is this: Hex, you are god. If I were a woman, I'd have your babies. OH, and AxVegeta, you say since you've never heard of div3rse we're not big...but keep in mind that div3rse has been around since the release of 1.03...but if you had quit last febuary, you'd be around since 1.04...and div3rse was rather large even then, so...anyone else wanna call shannanigans [/south Park Reference]? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{DHU}Screed Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 whos div3rse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Originally posted by [div3rse.syn] but keep in mind that div3rse has been around since the release of 1.03...but if you had quit last febuary, you'd be around since 1.04...[/south Park Reference]? since 1.2 actualy (off topic but oh well) and jarjar grip might be useful in TFFA and FFA but in s/o CTF and FF duel it aint worth **** i seriously doubt u gonna kill a FC with absorb on and in FF ur only gonna deal a few dmg and ur foe just gonna drain back his health Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[div3rse.syn] Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 my bad side. I've only been around since 1.04 Oh and screed...div3rse is the clan that beat FK a month or 2 ago Don't tell fallen that though, he doesn't seem to want to hear it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[div3rse.syn] Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 oh, and please note that the previous post was made fully as something playful, not insulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{DHU}Screed Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Originally posted by Side since 1.2 actualy (off topic but oh well) and jarjar grip might be useful in TFFA and FFA but in s/o CTF and FF duel it aint worth **** i seriously doubt u gonna kill a FC with absorb on and in FF ur only gonna deal a few dmg and ur foe just gonna drain back his health Actually if you team up with another darksider and 1 drain whores em so he has no force (pending theres no energizer with the FC) the other dark sider can grip kick him killing him pretty quickly. Oh and screed...div3rse is the clan that beat FK a month or 2 ago Don't tell fallen that though, he doesn't seem to want to hear it You only won cause' I wasnt there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jello123 Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 lol he's kiddin syn and a ton of jello for hex HEX FOR PRESIDENT sorry shaft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Originally posted by fk | screed Actually if you team up with another darksider and 1 drain whores em so he has no force (pending theres no energizer with the FC) the other dark sider can grip kick him killing him pretty quickly. (no offense on this post) that would only work vs newbies any good team would get someone energizing the FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[div3rse.syn] Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 you're assuming you get the drain past the absorb...and even then...you hold grip down and I guarentee absorb will be able to turn on...which = full force...so the FC is now gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the weiner dog! Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 Like I said before, I'm not happy about a software company dumping the job of fixing their games on the shoulders of the mod community but if this is what it takes then so be it. But I will say it's nice to actually have people who are willing to devote their time into helping the community. So again, thanks Hex for all the work. It really is appreciated by more people than just the CTF guys. I'm also glad that Hex is putting the options to enable/disable certain game play dynamics like the retail release should have done. My only suggestion to Hex would be although =X= is mainly a saber only clan, lend an ear to the gunners of Jedi Academy because I don't want to see them left out in the cold by the developers either. they have some issues with things like the sniper zoom delay that is screwing up game play and I doubt they are going to get any different treatment than the silent treatment we have gotten as well (from official sources). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=X=Master HeX Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 So far I've done my best to collect a team of programmers that I thought could lend a hand in the production of the new mod. Unlike my JO work this will be open source and under development by more then one programmer. We plan to bring things like JA IRC server bots (to relay chat rcon etc), trillian server listings, server side stat tracking, and of course all the rest of the time will be devoted to anything else the community requested. It has been common practice for me to make all changes an option in my mods. In fact you can run a JO server with xmod on it as if it were a base game (aside from the xmod centerscreen on connect). I will be doing the same and welcome the help of the entire community. If you are interested in helping with the project contact me via something (email, icq, aim, msn, yim, something) with a brief description of what you could do to assist us. Thanks for the complements guys, but I really don't see myself as a superman or anything. Just another JK junkie server admin looking to help out where he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{DHU}Screed Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 I would love to help out Hex, but I know very little about programming and the such. If you need a guinea pig im your man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[div3rse.syn] Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 hex > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 awsome...i wish i knew programing **** but il try to ask around if they could help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[div3rse.syn] Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 get draco!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 I agree that JA's S/O CTF (if you can even find a server running it) is lame. I hate to say this because it makes me feel like I'm whining but "back in the day" catching a runner was a matter of timing your bunny hops for better acceleration and top speed. Now every nub can bunny hop as well as I can (since the timing bracket is so decreased, at least from what I can tell), so you have to resort to owning them with dfa around the corner. Which is an old skool and awesome tactic, but no longer really viable. I mean, I can still pull it off because I never used (and still don't use) Force Seeing in conjunction with it. But if I did, the drain on my Force bar would mean after I missed (heh) I'd be totally useless as a returner. Which is garbage. My biggest issue with JA so far is that each saber style seems to dominate a particular type of game. Single saber still rules the duel school, while dual-saber lays the smack down in FFA and double-saber is the obvious winniner in CTF. That's lame. If I want to use dual-sabers in CTF and still be effectively, I freaking should be able to. Heck, I don't use Throw Lightsaber anyway, why the hell can't I kick with alt fire (even THAT would be something)? As far as old-skool flipkicking, anyone who played comp-level S/O CTF learned how to kick. The two best kickers were easily =X='s Idiot Savant and fk's Mega Death, but most everyone who played could do it well. I know I pulled off a lot of kicks that demanded timing and precision and almost always resulted in a dead FC. I logged into JK2 the other night, jumped on the div server and proceeded to once again own the nubs (btw who the hell are you people?) on the server with flying pull-kicks on their absorb. The kicks in JA are lame and nubly. If I kick someone, the chance I can capitalize on their knockdown is so ridiculously slim, especially considering how ungainly the double-saber is. I wouldn't even mind if the kick did 0 damage. As long as I could throw people and then capitalize, it's all good. I know it annoys nubs when someone who is a comp-level player is thrashing them with superior skills, but that's going to happen. There's always someone better and people who just "play for fun" tend to be at the bottom of the ladder. Catering to them is rather silly. Would you cater a gourmet dining experience to the bacteria on the plates? Doubtful. Of course, I understand part of the problem. A lot of the skilled multiplayer players didn't actually (and in a lot of cases still have yet to) buy a copy of the game. But it doesn't make the opinion of those of us who did any less valid. Lightsabers effectively suck in JA. It's a good thing I've learned how to fire the Tenloss rifle with this one second prep-to-fire garbage. It's called "look for saber, shoot guy with saber while he's in the middle of a kata." Oh and for the sake of all that's holy, what the heck's with the standing shock still while executing high-difficulty moves in MP? They work freaking right in single player! Hex, can you address this? I'd love to be able to use a kata in multiplayer since it's so cool to look at, and actually dying to one would make you feel so nubly. Know it. Love it. Want it: teh notorious a.r.d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor velocity kicks = not possible with staff kick kicking on the move = not possible on anyone that is moving and has half a brain flip kicks require you to jump and usually involve using push/pull to get the kickee to come within range and stun them. pull kicking wtih the staff = not possible. Thanks Rumor. I see what your saying. But if a FC is using absorb, aren't you unable to pull them anyways? Originally posted by noide 1 question: why do the casual gamers care if kick and the moves we need are put back into the game. why do they care if the force restrictions are taken out of the game so that s/o ctf is playable again. casual gamers shouldnt give a sht. they dont play this game like us. they dont try in this game like us. they just fck around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht. let the competitive players have what we need to play competively. the casual gamers will be happy with whatever. its not like they try to win or anything. they just put the wookie skin on and choose their dual saber and chat with friends while emoting. Casual gamers do care about winning and losing, just not to the extreme extent that competative players do. We are not satisfied with just "fcking around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht." When I play, I try to defeat my opponants and try to score enough to get near the top of the board. That is what the point of the game is, to try and get more kills/points than the other players. I don't get upset if I don't come in first, but I am disappointed if I end up last. I'll even go to the extent of trying to get better at the game by practicing a little bit. Basically, the casual gamer looks to play each gametype as it was intended, and try to achieve the goals specified. Up to that point, casual gamers and competative players are about the same, apart from how strong the desire to win is. Where the difference comes in is how we want to be able to achieve the goals set by the gametype. The casual gamer wants to have weapons that reflect what has been seen in the Star Wars movies and books. We want a game the to some extent represents the universe that we are supposed to be playing in. This more or less means lightsabers and blasters, etc. The thing that made flipkicks so unpopular with casual gamers was not that there were kicks at all. On the contrary, most casual gamers would agree kicks definitely have their place along side the other weapons, and that it certainly fits in the Star Wars mythos (thus the popularity of staff kicks). Where the problems arose as far as we were concerned was with the implementation. I think the biggest issues were that the damage went right through to health and that you weren't open to attack in the middle of the kick, that you could defend against another saber but not against a kick (apart from getting ut of the way), and to a lesser extent because of how it looked (not like a kick). But ultimately, it was because kick was a more potent weapon than the lightsaber. This does not reflect what the lightsaber is supposed to represent potency-wise. Speaking more or less for casual gamers, I do not want to see flipkicks return part and parcel as they were in JO, for the above reasons. I would be much more open to a solution to improve gameplay either through changes to improve the lightsaber, or improving the lightsaber and adding a more "accurate" form of kick. As for improving gameplay, I don't think too many casual gamers would get too upset if the changes were an improvement from an effectiveness standpoint, and fit into the universe the game is supposed to represent. What you are confusing casual gamers with above is RPG players. From what I have seen, RPGers do not want to play the gametypes at all. They want to use the game to do things totally alien to what the game was designed to play like. I suspect you might be right is saying they may be happy with just sparks and swinging their sabers (although they don't seem to use their sabers at all anyway). In the RPG thread that has just started up, it appears that many are interested in "pretending" that their characters have nothing to do with Jedi at all. This attitude is very different from your normal casual gamer. So in a nutshell: Competative JO/JA gamer: Wants to win by any means necessary, regardless of any basis for his "tools" in Star Wars. Casual JO/JA gamer: Wants to win, but wants his tools to reflect what is in the Star Wars universe. Because of this, we are not fond of kick as it was implemented in JO. RPG JO/JA gamer: Wants everything to be exactly as it is in Star Wars, regardless of whether it makes a balanced game. This is because they don't play the game at all, and so balance issues don't matter to them. I still believe that if a alteration in gameplay is really necessary that it is possible to have a solution that will satisfy both competative and casual gamers. Flaming aside, I think competative players are meeting resistence from casual players because bringing the old kick back does not satisfy both parties. Some competative players might not care a lick what casual gamers want (and vice versa) but I think we have a right to be happy about JA too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 pulling and pushing still stuns them (just doesn't score a knockdown), but you have to be very precise or you will just give them more force and they will get away. someone post the demo called "kicking goodness" that has idiot savant defending the flag in ff/so ctf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 well another difference about *MOST casual gamers/rpgers is they have an extremely large e-ego and if they get fragged it seems like the end of the world to them. that i just don't get. competitive players get fragged? so what, they go back and try again instead of bitching about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Originally posted by Prime Thanks Rumor. I see what your saying. But if a FC is using absorb, aren't you unable to pull them anyways? They still stop moving briefly with Absorb. They just don't get pulled towards you or pushed away. It's easy to nail a sitting duck of a target. I'm more than willing to come show you in JO if you want, Prime. Or maybe Grinteh has some demos of me...hm... Casual gamers do care about winning and losing, just not to the extreme extent that competative players do. We are not satisfied with just "fcking around and swing the saber and are happy that they make sparks and sht." When I play, I try to defeat my opponants and try to score enough to get near the top of the board. That is what the point of the game is, to try and get more kills/points than the other players. I don't get upset if I don't come in first, but I am disappointed if I end up last. I'll even go to the extent of trying to get better at the game by practicing a little bit. Basically, the casual gamer looks to play each gametype as it was intended, and try to achieve the goals specified. Nah, the true casual gamer is all about exploring the game for interesting stuff, not really playing competitively. It's silly to try. Those of us who do play competitively usually have a lot more practice under our belts. Most casual players don't even look beyond duel for long. Although Siege is very popular, I'll admit. But mostly with competitive players. Up to that point, casual gamers and competative players are about the same, apart from how strong the desire to win is. Where the difference comes in is how we want to be able to achieve the goals set by the gametype. The casual gamer wants to have weapons that reflect what has been seen in the Star Wars movies and books. We want a game the to some extent represents the universe that we are supposed to be playing in. This more or less means lightsabers and blasters, etc. And that's certainly played up in the single player mode. You have to pick and choose your weapons and all that fun stuff. The thing that made flipkicks so unpopular with casual gamers was not that there were kicks at all. On the contrary, most casual gamers would agree kicks definitely have their place along side the other weapons, and that it certainly fits in the Star Wars mythos (thus the popularity of staff kicks). Where the problems arose as far as we were concerned was with the implementation. Nobody in their right mind would say kicking is or was at any point perfect, but removing it entirely except for the lame staff kicks wasn't the right answer. Making it a Force skill...that might have been the answer. I think the biggest issues were that the damage went right through to health and that you weren't open to attack in the middle of the kick, that you could defend against another saber but not against a kick (apart from getting ut of the way), and to a lesser extent because of how it looked (not like a kick). But ultimately, it was because kick was a more potent weapon than the lightsaber. This does not reflect what the lightsaber is supposed to represent potency-wise. Kicking took some degree of skill, especially in a kick-fight. In a saber fight, the skill was mostly relegated to who could land a couple of strong hits (and knowing the saber tricks usually didn't help much). Speaking more or less for casual gamers, I do not want to see flipkicks return part and parcel as they were in JO, for the above reasons. I would be much more open to a solution to improve gameplay either through changes to improve the lightsaber, or improving the lightsaber and adding a more "accurate" form of kick. Most of the guys who want kick back wouldn't mind a smaller hitbox kick. It'd just mean a wider gap between the practiced and the "unpracticed," however. As for improving gameplay, I don't think too many casual gamers would get too upset if the changes were an improvement from an effectiveness standpoint, and fit into the universe the game is supposed to represent. Well, for all intents and purposes, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy are barely scraping by as a non-Infinities entity. Possibly only because of the popularity of the Dark Forces brand name and Kyle Katarn. What you are confusing casual gamers with above is RPG players. From what I have seen, RPGers do not want to play the gametypes at all. They want to use the game to do things totally alien to what the game was designed to play like. It's hard to differentiate one type of terrible player from another, usually. They're both dead before you have time to ponder it, and some more fodder is usually heading your way. I suspect you might be right is saying they may be happy with just sparks and swinging their sabers (although they don't seem to use their sabers at all anyway). In the RPG thread that has just started up, it appears that many are interested in "pretending" that their characters have nothing to do with Jedi at all. This attitude is very different from your normal casual gamer. Is it? RPGs are a major market-share of computer gaming. Major. Heck, even LucasArts produced one. That's saying something. Ten years ago, "back in the day" you had two options: Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy. Or maybe if you were old skool you had Crystalis or Zelda or something. But most of the time, it was Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy. Now, there are literally dozens of RPG titles to choose from. You can't say that an RPGer is "different from a normal casual gamer" because they ARE the normal casual gamers. Maybe casual FPS players are different, though. Competative JO/JA gamer: Wants to win by any means necessary, regardless of any basis for his "tools" in Star Wars. And we will, whether or not Raven wants to do the patch work themselves. Hex has already proven he can do better work than they can (just loadup xmod for JO, it's pretty clear it's about 4x better than standard JO). Casual JO/JA gamer: Wants to win, but wants his tools to reflect what is in the Star Wars universe. Because of this, we are not fond of kick as it was implemented in JO. Why would the casual gamer care? He's a casual gamer. If it's not exactly perfect, would he even know? I doubt it. Nobody seems to mind the fact that you can run on the walls (which isn't something we see in the Star Wars universe outside of Dark Forces). Nobody seems to mind that they can flip off walls (again, unique to DF). Why should one more little thing matter? It shouldn't. RPG JO/JA gamer: Wants everything to be exactly as it is in Star Wars, regardless of whether it makes a balanced game. This is because they don't play the game at all, and so balance issues don't matter to them. That's hardly true either. A knowledgable RPGer would know the second you try to make your mark on Star Wars is the second it ceases to be "as it is." I'm sure balance issues matter to enough of them that they might complain, but they're not a very vocal group on a whole. I still believe that if a alteration in gameplay is really necessary that it is possible to have a solution that will satisfy both competative and casual gamers. Doubtful. It's like a car company saying "Our Super Sport car will satisfy both casual and competitive drivers." Yeah, for all twenty seconds it takes that competitive driver to get under the hood and start boring the engine block, replacing air filters, stripping and placing a new exhaust system...a competitive person wants more. Period. Flaming aside, I think competative players are meeting resistence from casual players because bringing the old kick back does not satisfy both parties. Some competative players might not care a lick what casual gamers want (and vice versa) but I think we have a right to be happy about JA too. Be happy right now. Don't patch. Problem solved, right? I mean, that's what happened in JO. Everyone played the patch they liked the results of. That worked out fine. I mean, we've got the sequel don't we? However, you're obviously not a "typical casual gamer" so in the future, don't attempt to pass yourself off as such. It's a poor attempt to insult our intelligence. Just represent your opinion and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=X=Master HeX Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 First off... The only way to satisfy all parties is to give them each settings that can be changed the way THEY like it. This will draw competitive players to servers where there are not 20min standoffs between teams or duelists... RPG and fanboys to servers with flashy saber fights and emotes... and the casual gamer to all of the above. Second, there is no need to throw punches in a forum over these issues. It seems right now that the FF/SO CTF community is a little upset on the baseja. It also seems that there is a growing number of people complaining about default hit detection and saber damage. On another note I sort of looked into how blocking works a bit in JA and why people are complaining that they arn't blocking. If you notice there is a large bug in saber blocking on an idle character. As far as I can tell if you stand at a certain distance the blocking character won't even respons to attacks. There is also issues with hit detection on characters ducking. Major issues that should be looked into in the next version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the weiner dog! Posted September 22, 2003 Author Share Posted September 22, 2003 Originally posted by =X=Master HeX First off... The only way to satisfy all parties is to give them each settings that can be changed the way THEY like it. This will draw competitive players to servers where there are not 20min standoffs between teams or duelists... RPG and fanboys to servers with flashy saber fights and emotes... and the casual gamer to all of the above. Second, there is no need to throw punches in a forum over these issues. It seems right now that the FF/SO CTF community is a little upset on the baseja. It also seems that there is a growing number of people complaining about default hit detection and saber damage. On another note I sort of looked into how blocking works a bit in JA and why people are complaining that they arn't blocking. If you notice there is a large bug in saber blocking on an idle character. As far as I can tell if you stand at a certain distance the blocking character won't even respons to attacks. There is also issues with hit detection on characters ducking. Major issues that should be looked into in the next version. Just curious but does ghoul2 make any difference in your tests? Actually is it even ghoul2 this time around or something new? Reason I ask is back in Jedi Outcast it had some interesting results (to say the least) when enabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=X=Master HeX Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 I believe it's totally ghoul2 related. It's poor code that causes your saber to pass through someone without doing any damage. Same reason why if someone ducks and swings they don't end up headless if you pass a red swing through their head. It needs work, which we should see in the next patch or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazz Posted September 22, 2003 Share Posted September 22, 2003 Um...I hate to say it...but I kinda like MP in JKA. I totally agree with Weiner Dog here, but there is a simple solution: MODDERS, YOUR TIME IS NOW!! Seriously, if we get some good mods up in here to make the game a little more like JKII in terms of damage and insta-kill moves, but keep the new stances, maps, player models, and other great things in JKA, we could be looking at a GREAT MP experience. Unfortunately...I cant mod. At all. Period. I tried once...but ended up screwing my JKII file so much that i had to re-install the game...so perhaps some pro modders should take this one If modders can make great mods like ForceModII and JediMod, then why not JKA? And if THAT doesnt work...at least we all still have our copies of JKII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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