Game feels rushed? (Spoilers)

[yoda_alex]

Does anyone else think that the game feels as if it was just thrown together?

 

Some of the teir missions are real filler missions ie. they're just there to make up the numbers. I am thinking specifically of the one where you have to scavenge bits from the merchant ship, the speeder bike level, the mutant rancor level and to some extent the "lose all your weapons" level (although the level design was good, the level "plot" was a bit obvious).

 

The overall plot was really obvious as well, in that it was extremely similar to JO. They had a great character in Tavion but I feel as if she was wasted.

 

The light side dark side choice was a bit poor as well. I don't think you should have had a conscious choice. It would have been a lot cooler if it was like how it was in JK - the decision is out of your hands and when you do choose all your stars get swept to one side of the force. It just feels as if Raven said "We want alternative endings, but we don't want to do too much extra work".

 

What does everyone else think?

[rut-wa jodar]

I found that JA had some nice level design in SP/MP maps but overall I was dissapointed at how weak multiplayer game seemed. Poor hit detection,slight saber balance problems and a few animation issues let this game down. I have also noticed that mp bots are worse at navigating in JA than in JO and spark effects during dismemberment are a massive framerate issue.

 

Hopefully Raven will address these minor issues in a "much needed" patch.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I was frankly bored playing through JA, I completed it the day I got it and I feel cheated out of my money despite the huge discount (£26.99).

 

As yoda_alex said, the tier missions were just filler, in all honesty they were far too short and simple. You read the mission briefing then arrive to do something completely different and in general more straightforward.

 

The story missions were more impressive, two of them were immense enough to allow me to ponder editing possibilities (the tomb place and the lava world / trying to find Rosh).

 

The ending (light side) was anti-climatic, much like MotS and JO (we've won, lets go home), I don't really feel inclined to try the dark path just yet.

 

Tavion was more interesting than Desann, but her presence just helped solidify the feeling that I was playing an expansion rather than a new game.

 

I was also disappointed in how useless the new acrobatics were except for a few compulsory (I counted 3) uses of long-jump, not once was I required to use the wall-grab. This is a shame since I was looking forward to a more force-jump based game than JO.

 

The saber combat feels weaker and less involving, and being given wave upon wave of enemy force users got boring fast. I've tried both dual sabers and double-bladed and returned to the good old fashioned single saber. JK managed to get by with only 7 Dark Jedi, each of whom were unique and interesting, which shows more is not better.

[BloodRiot]

I will only comment on the 7 dark jedi from JK vs countless waves of reborn/cultists.

 

Of course the 7 dark jedi are more interesting and unique. I've stated that way back, but people said no... we want more saber users... I've also stated that I never really did like the reborn concept. Lot's of force junkies that get pumped full of force and have a lightsaber.

 

Anyway... it's not a matter to be discussed now. It's a matter of waiting for good modder made SP missions with more interesting storyline. Either way I must say that JA is both better and worse than JO in my book.

[yoda_alex]

I really agree with detritic-iq's point about hoards of cultists. In JO, the reborn were used sparingly through most of the game which made the romp through the acadamy pretty fun. But the last two levels of JA were infuriating because I'd already fought_so_many_cultists. They cropped up in really random places as well - like the dude in the control room on the tatooine mission.

 

In fact, the last two levels of JO and JA were pretty much identical which was a real shame. It made the climax of JAa chore instead of a pleasure.

[sights0d]

My wife bought the game for me because she knew I'd want it right away. She was surprised that I finished the game so quickly. I loved the force users! I loved throwing them off chasms and smacking them all over the place!

 

It would have been nice, though, for them to have more "boss" type jedis with distinctive styles.

 

The prob with JK was that saber combat wasn't really real. There were basically two attacks, as I recall... It didn't seem to make a darned bit of difference what you really did, as long as you struck when they weren't blocking. How boring! JKO was a VAST improvement. I'm sure there's yet another step to make it more realistic. I'm wondering if they'll stick with the Quake engine for #4. Hmm.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Funny, when I was playing SP I never got a chance to throw the force-users off ledges, they managed it well enough by themselves. Heck, on occasion they kill each other by standing next to each other with ignited double-bladed sabers.

 

What's worse is that you could take 75 damage in a fight, so you just had to walk around a corner and wait for your mana to recharge so you could heal, then rejoin the fight.

 

I was terrible at fighting force-users, i'm a rubbish saberist and the game was still stupidly easy.

 

Now I know what PC Gamer UK meant about terrible AI.

[Deadeye]

I completely agree. Both JO, and JA feel rushed an unpolished. Both games are rather weak. They could have been so much better with just some subtle improvements. The games are just Quake III with sabers. The maps are like Quake III shoot-em-ups and don't really feel like Star Wars.

 

On the other hand I still enjoyed the 10 hours I got out of them. Its kinda like this. We all love Star Wars right? Well where can we get our Jedi action fix? Raven! They're the only place that's providing something like that for us. I wish they, or Activision would take the time to make a great StarWars Jedi game like KOTOR. Action-based of course. JK1 was a fantastic game that felt very starwars. Raven doesn't seem to have a sense of style with their games. All they are are kill kill kill, games using the obligatory FPS environments, and obligatory FPS weapons.

 

I actually wrote my little opinion thread here. Check it out

 

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112663

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

My view is that multiplayer (with the exception of siege) should be Quake with Sabers and Force, simple no-nonsense kill-or-be-killed type action. Singleplayer on the other hand should be involving and maybe a bit more of the investigative side of being a Jedi rather than the non-stop action.

 

The manual specifically says that a fight is the last thing a Jedi wants, yet the game never lets us pick the diplomacy option. Even The Phantom Menace game offered more freedom than JA.

[Assault3000]

Jedi Academy is short, yes, but I found it to be much better than Jedi Outcast. I was never too fond of Raven, I know Lucasarts in-house hasn't been top-notch like they used to be, but Im sure even THEY could create a more Star Warish game than Raven has. Get Nihlinth (Spelling?) to make the next game instead of Raven Lucasarts, that team consists mostly of people who worked on Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith.

[yoda_alex]

DOes anyone else feel Raven are relying on the RPG aspect of the game (different endings, different sabres, different clothes) to make up for the game being a bit on the the short side?

[Deadeye]

DOes anyone else feel Raven are relying on the RPG aspect of the game (different endings, different sabres, different clothes) to make up for the game being a bit on the the short side?

 

Yes I agree to some extent. But Raven has to know that that won't cut it. I bet Activision shoved that in there and said, "do this. It will make it cool." "Just make sure it's done by sept 17!"

 

Overall, every attempt to improve on JO was a weak effort. It's better, yes, but still unpolished, and bland. -And certainly not at all StarWars-like.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by yoda_alex

DOes anyone else feel Raven are relying on the RPG aspect of the game (different endings, different sabres, different clothes) to make up for the game being a bit on the the short side?

 

Not at all. Those are pretty shallow 'RPG' elements when all is said and done. Take a look at Deus Ex, one of the best action/RPG hybrids out there, to see what I mean.

 

As to the key point of the topic...I think I have to agree to an extent that the game doesn't feel 'complete'. I enjoyed the 'core' missions at the end of each tier far more than the tiered missions themselves.

 

The underlying problem here is that they tried to offer far greater choice of locales, and some mixed variety in the gameplay - which is all very welcome - but they essentially tried to do too much.

 

Each of the mini-missions just did not have enough of a backstory, and was not compelling enough in terms of ongoing narrative. Much of the game simply became about entering a location and 'cleaning it out' - which as stated above is not really very much like a 'Jedi'. I remember two instances with NPCs you could help (the prisoners vs Rancor, and the Jawas), and it simply was not enough.

 

As also mentioned...Luke spouts about diplomacy, but you don't get to practice it. Why? Because you can't really use stealth, and there are no NPCs to talk to.

 

I honestly feel that some of the tiered missions could have been glued together as 2- or 3-level missions with a more cohesive sub-story. The Tatooine levels and the 'swoop' level could have gone together well, and formed one mission. The Coruscant 'crime lord' and the Corellia 'tram' levels could have been bonded together to make a more interesting pursuit of the Crime lord. There is nothing wrong at all with the concept of 'mini-missions', but with more thought, more creative sub-plots and better level design, they could have been much, much better.

 

I also felt very disappointed with the Blenjeel (merchant ship in distress) level, because it could have been so much better. Having to free trapped survivors from the wreckage, and then make a safe path for them back to your own ship, would have been a far more compelling scenario - especially if the 'worms' were battering at the sides of the two vessels all of the time. And for even more interest on that level...why not simply have an entire graveyard of ships that also fell prey to this Interdictor Star Destroyer?

 

There was so much more that could have been done - but when you bring in the constraints of time, then yes, the game does feel as if it was rushed. If they'd had another year of development time...maybe a lot of these mini-missions could have been better fleshed out, and more engaging, and we'd have seen less of the 'locked door' syndrome, and perhaps a return of the 'moral choice' dictated by your actions, rather than a simple 'Yes' or 'No'.

 

I also agree that there were far too many 'dark jedi' this time around. Jedi Knight managed with 7 opponents, in this regard, and to be honest it felt more 'real'. JA hinted at what could have been possible when you encountered Alora...and she managed to escape, for you to fight her another day. If this kind of scenario had been engaged for a handful of dark Jedi with considerable power, then it could have been a far more compelling experience.

 

As it is, Jedi Academy languishes in 3rd place behind Jedi Outcast (2nd) and Jedi Knight (1st).

[Deadeye]

I agree with you SH. Also your ranking is spot on. JK1 had great level design, and a great story. I wish someone would do a JK1 total conversion with JO, or JA. Now that would be cool. Also make sure to bring over the full-motion-video cutscenes. They were great!

 

I was thinking about how Episode 1 Obi-Wan played for the Xbox. It got horrible reviews, and for the most part I agree. The textures were awefull. But you know what? The level design has JO, and JA beat any day. -Mostly. Obi-Wan had areas where you had to jump up and hang from ledges, and wait for the bad guys to pass by, then Bam! jump and a get it on!

 

That's the other thing. The enemy AI in that game was always partrolling, and doing something. -Another way to bring the world to life. In QIII games including like JO, JA, and EF2 which I worked on a bit, the enemy AI are statues waiting for the player character to trigger them. In fact, I mentioned this at an EF2 design meeting. They all agreed and said that the enemy AI should be patrolling or doing something. I don't remember if they added it though.

 

The other good thing about Obi-Wan is you had areas that seemed to be explorable. Even though they too, had locked doors, there were so many avenues and paths to take through a level that you felt like you were in that location, instead of being dragged through it. The Theed levels, and the early Trade Federation Ship levels are a good example.

 

Look at JK1 from Baron's Hed to the top of the Palace where you faced Yun. You always felt like you were going somewhere, and the enemies were trying to stop you. in JO, and JA you feel like it's your job to suck as much fun out of killing everything in each room. Now I'm all for the killing of bad guys, but JK1 and MOTS just felt more meaningful. Every level in both of those games had you trying to reach or stop another major character, i.e the 7 Dark Jedi, Kapaa the Hutt, Kaeroboni, and Kyle in MOTS. That keeps the player wondering what's going to happen, and where will the story go next once I meet this character. It fills the game with a purpose, and makes it feel more like an adventure and less like a video game.

 

In JO, and JA, it's kill everything, and then go on to the next killing environemnt. I often reload encounters with the Cultists just to play with the dueling again and again. After all, there is nothing tense or thrilling about running them down in the full game. It's like each room is a little level in and of itself where you kill bad guys and move on. JO, and JA have no flow what-so-ever

 

The more I think about it, the more irritated I get with JO, and JA.

I still play them and will still buy it even if Raven does the next one. After all, this is the only action game around that lets you play as a Jedi.

[Dart Zaidyer]

In my opinion, Jedi Academy is the game Jedi Outcast should have been. It lives up more readily to JK as far as how you can play the game.

 

Unfortunately, the scale has not been duplicated.

 

Now, the problem with Jedi Outcast is that it did have that certain scale, but everywhere I went felt like the wrong way because it looked like it was an afterthought. (Especially the one area in Cairn where you're in the huge room and have to jump from fixture to fixture once a rocket trooper shoots down your tram. Through that particular area I just get this feeling of "You made a wrong turn. Look how crappy it is in here!")

 

Academy has the opposite problem: Everything looks like I would have expected it to in the previous game, but it's left to languish in such a tiny world.

I'm not averse to that kind of mission set-up, but there should have been more of it in between the required missions.

 

Since, however, it will be easier to create Single Player missions than it was in Jedi Outcast, I'm sure the 3rd party will have no trouble filling the void.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by RSloan76

I agree with you SH. Also your ranking is spot on. JK1 had great level design, and a great story. I wish someone would do a JK1 total conversion with JO, or JA. Now that would be cool. Also make sure to bring over the full-motion-video cutscenes. They were great!

 

There is already a Mod in the works (and has been for a while) called Dark Forces 2 Enhanced. Their aim is not only to recreate the original JK, but to try and improve on it by adding extra elements to the level design. They've recently moved to being hosted at Jediknight.net - and they're just waiting for the web designer to complete the site and get it up. The last time I checked on the project (a couple of months ago), they were making good progress on some of the maps, like Nar Shaddaa.

 

That's the other thing. The enemy AI in that game was always partrolling, and doing something. -Another way to bring the world to life.

 

I totally agree. The best game I played in this regard was No One Lives Forever 2 - particularly the Siberia mission, where you had to avoid the Russian soldiers. Although their actions were scripted, the soldiers would go to the toilet, sneak a quick smoke, fall asleep in a corner when they should have been on duty - and it just made them all seem more alive. And of course if you alerted them to your presence, they hunted you down, went to raise the alarm or fetch comrades... The other reason why it all worked so well was because the 'stealth' element was there. And I think some optional stealth (with the ability to 'knock out' rather than kill your enemies) could have made both JO and JA much better gaming experiences, and made you feel more like a 'Jedi'.

 

You know, when you think about it, the movies are full of 'stealth' and 'diplomacy' along with all the epic battles. Obi-Wan in ANH (aboard the Deathstar), both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM when they reach Naboo, Luke making his way through Cloud City, are prime examples of Jedi using stealth to achieve their aim, rather than brute force. And in terms of diplomacy - Luke tries to barter for Han's life first, rather than simply clear out Jabba's Palace. It's a shame these elements did not make it into this series of games, because it would have added a great deal more depth.

 

Imagine, for example, on the Nar Kreeta mission if you had first had to go and visit the Hutt, to try a diplomatic solution to freeing the prisoners. The Hutt has none of it, and warns you not to interfere. Then you have to use subterfuge to find out where the prisoners are being kept, and sneak in to try and free them. At that point you have the 'option' to start killing everyone - or trying to sneak past them to find the first control to release the first batch of prisoners. Then all hell breaks loose. That would have played far better, to my mind.

 

Grrrrr...it's just frustrating that I can't get my hands dirty and start messing around with all of the missions to add the elements I can see that are missing, which would improve them.

 

Look at JK1 from Baron's Hed to the top of the Palace where you faced Yun. You always felt like you were going somewhere, and the enemies were trying to stop you. in JO, and JA you feel like it's your job to suck as much fun out of killing everything in each room. Now I'm all for the killing of bad guys, but JK1 and MOTS just felt more meaningful. Every level in both of those games had you trying to reach or stop another major character, i.e the 7 Dark Jedi, Kapaa the Hutt, Kaeroboni, and Kyle in MOTS. That keeps the player wondering what's going to happen, and where will the story go next once I meet this character. It fills the game with a purpose, and makes it feel more like an adventure and less like a video game.

 

I totally agree with your point. In JK, you didn't have to kill all of the enemies in order to proceed - just leave them far enough behind. In JA, on some of the missions, you have to kill everyone - like in Mos Eisley, the death of the last enemy in an area triggers the cut scene. That just felt wrong to me. It placed the emphasis on killing, and removed it from the key objective.

 

In JA it would have been nice to have Kyle show you the ropes more...particularly in the first tier of missions. As you accompany him through the levels, he should have been pointing out different things, doing things and explaining the reason behind that method, rather than another. Again...it comes back to depth.

 

I really have to hope that for any future titles in the series they start to consider these issues in the proper context of becoming a 'Jedi' rather than a Force-powered killing machine on a wild rampage.

[Deadeye]

You what though? I fear that most people who play this game are either not really concerned about SP, or think it's fine the way it is.

 

It would take a complete re-work of how these JK games are made to really capture the Jedi/StarWars feel.

 

For starters if they make levels like JK1, and MOTS, and make the goals more appealing, that would make a world of difference.

 

On the other hand I do wish that some developer would really capture everything to being a Jedi. Like most of the stuff you mentioned Storm Hammer. It seems like if that happend, you'd get a bunch of people bitching about the return of the JO, JA-style shooter.

 

As I said I agree with you Storm H. We should have some stealth, and some diplomacy. Raven should never have had Luke say you would learn history, and especially not have had Kyle say "now your gonna test you're diplomacy skills." (or whatever) That was just wrong, and completely misleading. It was a tease. Not that diplomacy is the coolest video game element out there. But still. Bad move.

 

The problem with stealth though, is that there has to be a reason to sneak instead of kill. Upholding the Jedi code, and having the mission fail if you kill would be the wrong way to go. -Maybe 1 or 2 missions where kill=fail might be good, like Splinter Cell. The way to make good stealth, has to do with being outnumbered, or outguned. Now Jedi are baddass uber-warriors, but in order to impliment some stealth, your Jedi must be at risk in order to "want" to sneak around.

 

Once again look at E1 Obi Wan. Not much stealth, but I'll tell ya. When one battle droid went for the alarm panel, I went right after him. I knew that I couldn't face that many battle droids. Part of the reason that is so, is b/c you had active blocking. Could I block every bolt coming in? Yes, but with the more battle droids the harder it got to hit that block button at the right moment. Plus the battle droids were able to surround you, so I really couldn't just stand there and block everything. I had to move and plan.

 

Look at the Phantom Menace. Obi, and Qui-Gon could never had re-taken the city if they just sent them in sabers-blazing. -Which is exaclty what Raven would have you do. In the movie, and in some parts, the game, you chose your battles. And watched the patrolls, and waited for the right time to attack.

 

Diplomacy on the other hand would be tough to impliment too. To really give it a purpose, the player should want to try to work things out, instead of turn violent. Take that Hutt example Storm Hammer mentioned. Would we really want "all hell" not to break loose? No, we want to be able to jump into the action. So what can we do? Well make the "all hell breaking loose" option an impossible fight. No that won't work. To make it work, there has to be multiple out comes a la KOTOR. That's gonna take a helluva lot of lines of speach, and several different senarios. It's do-able, but unfortunately nobody, these days, wants to impliment it.

 

I'll tell ya. What it all boils down to, a near perfect Jedi game would be 3rd person action version of KOTOR. Less speech of course, and more action, and more environmental exploration too, but very similar.

 

I like to speak my mind about this stuff, but I hate to post such long ones. I know sometimes I don't want to bother reading all that. I hope somebody does.

 

PS I know about the Enhanced JK1 mod. What are the odds they'll finish though? I'm not holding my breath. Maybe I'll lend my modeling services.

[frogbeastegg]

Please allow me to contribute my 2 pence on what I feel has been missing from the last two Dark Forces games. Firstly a little background: I have been playing this series since the original Dark Forces. I have finished all of the games (except academy, I only got it yesterday) multiple times and I have enjoyed all of them. However I do have some memorable moments from these games that illustrate nicely what is missing now.

 

Moment 1. Yun's death when you are on the light side. DFII

I really liked the characters in DFII and Yun was my favourite dark Jedi so imagine how shocked I was when he died saving Kyle’s life, defying his master (er mistress) in the process. I attacked Sariss with rage in my heart and a desire for vengeance (and got my behind handed to me!) because this event has such an impact.

 

What this moment illustrates: An interest and care towards the NPCs - I liked Yun and I liked Sariss and this death affected me more than any event in DFIII and DFIV. The characters had depth that is missing from todays games.

 

Moment 2. Choosing your path in DFII.

The battle and cutscene where your fate was decided in DFII was unforgettable. The cutscene was very well acted and the dialogue was well written. Few people could blame Kyle if he submitted to temptation and avenged his fathers’ death. Few people could blame Kyle if he let a murderer live.

 

What this moment illustrates: Firstly the existence of a choice and secondly that the choice was determined by your actions and choices. If you acted like a dark Jedi or were careless around civilians you would go dark, if you cared and were careful you would go light. You earned your path and could blame only yourself if you fell to the darkside.

 

Moment 3. Gromas mines DFI

Ah the mines - a dusty red level with a haze blocking your view and an eery atmosphere. You knew that there was evil present, you knew you would meet heavy resistance, you knew that the Dark Troopers would appear soon, and you knew how devastating the Dark Troopers were as you had seen their massacres on other levels. After making your way through the level as tense as anything you started to relax. You reached the end and sabotaged the mines and then you hear a door open as you start to leave. Nervously you look around and you see a skeletal metal figure with burning eyes and a sword sprint out of the gloom - your first Dark Trooper! After a titanic fight you win and you spend the rest of the game scared of the Dark Troopers.

 

What this moment illustrates: An enemy you could fear - something you imagined in the dark corners and blind spots that you found on every level. You always expected a Dark Trooper to be around the next corner but there seldom was. And yet you never lost the fear, instead it grew, as each Dark Trooper was more deadly than the last. DF should not be about fear but there should be something to fear, the sabre wielding reborn do not fit the gap left by the Troopers - nothing has because DFII was missing this element too.

 

Moment 4. The end boss in Mysteries of the Sith.

You have fought your way through a Sith temple and finally you have found Kyle. Your suspicions are confirmed - he has gone to the Dark Side and will try to kill you. As you step onto the last lift you sink down into the darkness and your force power leaves you - you are helpless. Kyle awaits you stood on another lift, there is a small platform between you and a bottomless pit surrounds the lift. He taunts you and demands you join him or die. It is a real choice - if you join him the mission will fail (you think) as you too will fall to the dark side, if you jump off the platform you will die. You make your choice, if it is the right one (falling off) you will see through the illusion and begin to duel Kyle in a small chamber dotted with power ups. Choosing the dark side sent you falling to your death. The trial continued as Kyle was invulnerable and you could find no way to kill him. In a fit of despair and frustration you put your sabre away and stood unarmed - and this was the answer. To save your friend and teacher you must refuse to fight.

 

What this moment illustrates: A ingenuity and a genuinely different ending. For once you did not kill the boss and you had to choose the options that never worked before in a game. You had to stick to your Jedi principles if you wanted to win. It was beautiful. This innovation didn't require masses of extra work or fancy technology, only a willingness to think of something different to the norm. You had to lose to Desann the first time you met and it was a good thing, sadly there has been no more innovation like that.

 

 

Away from these moments here are some things I feel are missing or wrong.

*The sabre duels - firstly there are too many duels with low skill enemies. Secondly the areas where you duel are often badly laid out for this kind of fighting. Tripping over lights and banging into columns is not fun and it gets in the way of a good fight. The area where you fight the first saberist in DFIV is an excellent example - he just drops out the sky and you fight him in a small cluttered hollow with barely any space to move. I am in favour of more duels than DFII had - seven just isn't enough but In DFIV I am tripping over sabre users every few seconds and they are no longer special.

 

*The clichés - There is always a Nar Shadda type level (big, boxy grey city hovering in the sky with many death drops and alien thugs), there are always Grans and they always use blaster rifles and thermal detonators, there are always evil Imperials swarming everywhere despite the fact you have killed them several times before, there is always a level set on a star ship and so on and so forth. I know that a lot of this is because it is Star Wars (have to have Stormies) but surely they can mix it up a little and add new enemies in larger numbers. The moment Courescant loaded I knew I would find Weequay with bowcasters, Rodians with Tenlosses and Gran with detonators, along with many annoying jumps and a lot of grey. And I was right, the droids were the only surprise and they were mentioned in the briefing.

 

*The deadness of the universe - this has already been mentioned in depth so I will keep it short. Quite simply you get dropped into a level and have to run through killing everything. There is only one path, everyone is hostile and most of the areas are roped off. The conversations help (you can eavesdrop on the AI) but much more is needed.

 

There are some things the last two games have got right:

*Kyle's personality - his in game comments are funny and break the action up a little. "There's never a key - that would be too easy" made me laugh.

 

*The force reliant puzzles - I love having to use the force to move things, trick people and so on. DFII could be finished without the force and this was my biggest criticism of the game.

 

*Sabre construction - Finally I can choose my sabre! I hated having a green sabre in DFII and I was always glad to get Yun's because it was a nice, different colour. I cheated to change the blue sabre or yellow, orange or purple in DFIII. Quite simply blue and green are dull, everyone has them and I don't really like the colours much anyway. Now we can choose everyone is happy except those who want red.

 

After all let me state that I do like the two new games and I will continue to play the series unless they go solely multiplayer (I don't do multiplayer) or become really bad. I am trying to be constructive in my criticism so future games can improve.

[Deadeye]

Good points. I agree with those memorable moments. From DF, JK, and MOTS.

 

Lets see, what was memorable about JO, and JA?

Oh yeah, nothing. It was fun, but there's nothing to talk about.

 

I have very few friends that are actualy gamers, and sometimes I forget who I'm talking to. If were to describe JO, and JA, it would be unappealing. "You're a jedi in training at Lukes Jedi Academy and you're trying to stop the imperials and this dark jedi cult from taking over the galaxy, you learn how use a lightsaber, and force powers. It's fun trust me."

 

JK1: "Your a mercenary who discovers his ties to the force. You later find a lightsaber, and start using the force. Your actions determine which way you will align yourself, dark or light. You are trying to stop 7 Dark Jedi from amassing incredible power."

 

MOTS: "You start out as Kyle, and you're a jedi master. You then switch to Mara Jade, and you learn the force. You have to track down various characters and get them to cooperate. They sometimes send you on their own missions in order to get what you want. You later find that Kyle is tempted by the dark side, and you have to try to bring him back"

 

BTW MOTS was a very good example of the take a few various missions idea that JA attempted. The missions were deep, and branched off. That's how JA should have done it.

 

I tried to give each game it's fair description, with/out being too bland with JO, and JA. But just look at that. This thread makes me wanna go back and play JK1, and MOTS. I tried once but it asked for DirectX 5, and I couldn't get around it. Does anybody know how BTW?

 

I wonder though. DF was the first SW FPS, so instant appeal. JK1 was the first Jedi FPS, so instant appeal. MOTS was Mara Jade, and more Jedi FPS, so instant appeal. JO was the first Jedi FPS in like 6 years, so instant appeal. -That faded with that appeal of much more polished games out there. JA is the more of unmemorable JO, and just as weak. -Blah. The point is, I wonder if it's sorta too late to re-create those memorable moments from the early DF/JK games. Of course we can say, "yes, use your imagination, and thers's plenty of room to expand and make better." But seriously it seems like the series has lost steam. JA, in my opion, was a rushed out cash cow. There was no innovation or desire to make a good game. Once again, just look at the Coruscant level. It's like they were'nt even trying.

 

LIke I've said before, give the series to a developer that really wants to do it. Like Bioware did with KOTOR. That game was no hold barred great. With other games out there like Metroid Prime, Zelda, Splinter Cell, Halo, and probably HL2, there is no reason why the developer of the JK series should crap out. This happens a lot though. There are tons of games that get shoved out the door and suck. I just wish that it didn't have to happen to such a great series.

[StormHammer]

You made a lot of good points in your post, frogbeastegg, and I agree with most of them.

 

As for clichés, I don't mind some of them. I like the long drops into oblivion on some of the maps - because SW environments are known for their vertical, as well as horizontal, scale.

 

And I agree too that the level design (and indeed level scale) in MotS carried off the 'mini-mission' format better than some of those in JA.

 

The other thing that made JK and MotS work was the fact that we already had a good backstory to the characters. In JA, Jaden Korr's past is simply glossed over, probably partly due to the 'customisable aspect' of the character. You can pretty much make up your own past for the character - and perhaps that is what was intended. However, by doing so...you sacrifice the chance to weave the back-story into the ongoing narrative, and so the character ends up being weak. You're told at the start that you've made a lightsaber on your own...but you never get to learn how or why. You have no personal quest to fulfil, other than becoming a Jedi Knight. The picture is incomplete, and the narrative not as compelling.

[frogbeastegg]

There was one memorable moment for me in JO (better start using this sites abbreviations) - the first reborn you met. You are jumping up the insides of Cloud City with a tingling feeling at the back of your neck; you know that the sabre-wielding enemies will appear soon. About half way up a figure in red jumps at you shouting a challenge, you quickly realise he is a Jedi too. Sadly the first time I saw this the AI let the set piece down and the reborn fell to his death before I could fight him!

 

A comfortable compromise between back story and customised characters would be an extension of what is in JA. Your character is named and their past is set in stone, for example they are called Jaden and from the planet Blahblah etc. However you can choose their appearance and lightsabre in the same way you can now. You would still be able to have a non-human character since aliens live on most worlds in the SW universe, if Coruscant is the home world you would be able to have almost any species. Would it really ruin the customisation if we knew that Jaden had a friend called Aperson who died protecting him from an Imperial raid? In my eyes it would enhance the game significantly.

 

It is never too late to return to the previous highs of memorable moments, in many ways it is quite simple as long as the designers are willing (and allowed) to exercise their ingenuity. All a level needs to be memorable is something new and well executed or something incredibly cool. The items on my original list are all very simple when you look at them - a well-written plot, a good enemy and something very different to the FPS standard. They all tie into the games overall plot and I think that is the real key - would we have cared about Yun and the Choice in JK if the plot was bad? Would we have surrendered to Kyle if the plot didn't call for his redemption? Would the Dark Troopers have struck terror into our hearts if the plot hadn't included them?

 

Now that Kyle's story is finished (he has gone from a mercenary to a Jedi to a fallen Jedi to a Jedi master, what else is left for him?) perhaps the series should move far away from this setting. Perhaps something set during the republic or the Clone Wars would do - you would have a new setting, new characters and a new era with plenty of opportunities to explore. One possibility is a game set just before the Clone Wars, you could play a Padawan learner who trains alongside Anakin Skywalker (you have done several training exercises with him and have met him around the temple). You would slowly grow in force powers and lightsabre skill as you get older (say one mission consisting of several levels for each year of your training from the age of 20 - 24) until you graduate as a knight. You then go on several more missions comprising of several levels each until the battle of Genosis takes place. At this point you are sent on various missions to help the Clones Wars until Episode III takes place and the final battle is held. The last level could include Anakin Skywalker (or more likely Darth Vader) as a boss in a fight you cannot win - the game ends with your tragic death fighting for your Jedi principles against your old comrade and training partner. To make it challenging you could have to survive for a certain amount of time while some refugees you are protecting escape. If you die before the time is up you fail, if you survive for long enough your mission is complete and you can die well. An unconventional ending but anyone who has played Way of the Samurai will tell you that tragic endings can be very satisfying. You couldn't make this game until after episode III though.

 

One thing I have noticed about JA so far is the uneven distribution of health and shield power. I always get tons of health power ups but I never need them. It is rare to find shield power ups and they would be useful. In addition they always put the shield power ups together in a clump where you don't need them, when you do get battered by a mob of stormtroopers or several reborn there are no shields. The distribution is just plain wrong and it has been wrong on every level so far (I'm up to the mutant rancor level playing them in the order they are listed). I know that it is a fine balancing act between difficulty and over doing the power ups but who thought of putting two shield generators and a large shield power pack with in six rooms of each other!?! Likewise why is there no shield power after you fight three reborns simultaneously in Chandrila? You immediately face a reborn with dual sabres followed by another reborn before you get a large shield booster. Shortly after this shield booster there is another one, which you don't really need because there has been no major fighting.

 

As a side note why is the series a first person shooter? DF was a shooter because there was no lightsabre. All the games after that have centred on lightsabres and Jedi principles so why hasn't the series evolved to suit this? A few conversation options, a way to avoid killing everyone, a moral balance where every action is properly weighed up (killing enemies you have disarmed is evil and yet light Jedi get away with it all the time) and bingo - you have a more suitable game.

[yoda_alex]

I don't think we'll see that many games set in the prequel era for quite a long time. On of the best things about the original trilogy was that the universe seemed alive and real, whereas the prequel trilogy's setting isn't as compelling.

 

But back to_this_game, I just don't think it seemed "Star wars" enough. Raven made an effort by putting in loads of familiar locations andcharacters but ultimately failed in terms of atmosphere. For example, on the mos eisley mission. In ANH, the city was swarming with civilians while there were hardly any in JA. The same goes for Coruscant.

 

In the tram level, terrorists have taken over the tram so it would be nice to see a few dead bodies around (I know it was a cargo tram but there would be some live people on it).

 

I disagree with frogbeastegg about the Nar Saddaa type levels - I thought they were cool (In fact the first levels of JK were my favourite of the whole game) but JA screws the Coruscant level up because it is basically a flat level just set high up. In JO, the first NS level was a truely 3D map and that was what made it interesting.

 

However I do agree that the storyline in JA was poor. There were interesting points in JO (like Jan's "death", going to the valley, kyles nightmare on the Lady Luck) but nothing in JA stuck in my memory.

[frogbeastegg]

Personally speaking I like the clean and polished look of the prequels as much as the used universe of the classics, but I recognise that it is a matter of taste. Sadly the appearance of the prequels marked the end of the Star Wars gaming golden age, so we have never really seen what they can do in a good game.

 

My beef with the Nar Shadda levels isn't the concept; rather it is that way the exact same level has been regurgitated in all five games with no real alterations. If they altered the colour scheme a little and used a different set of enemies there would be no problem. Earlier in this thread yoda_alex said that the last levels of JO and JA were so similar it made playing JAs version a chore, this endless repeat of the big, grey city with aliens has the same effect on me. I would agree that JKs Nar Shadda was the best version, the addition of NPCs in the bars did liven it up considerably.

 

yoda_alex you are spot on with the tram level - it was a fun level but it just needed that little bit extra. Dead bodies would have finished it and given it a more 'real' feeling. We know that they can add dead bodies to the levels because there were some on Bakura. Two bodies would have enough to show what happened to the crew.

 

Did anyone else like the Tatooine sandcrawler level? The Jawas added a considerable amount to the level and the area seemed a lot more 'alive' than most of the other levels. It was just a pity that the Jawas didn't do anything except cower in fear after you saved them from the Tusken raiders.

[Deadeye]

Good points all around. I wish there was some way to get this to Lucas Arts, or Raven. Oh well.

 

You're right though. Jawas did make the level come alive. Just a few more moisture farmers, and maybe some little scurrying creatures would have made that level nice. Even still, to me that level felt like we were going into someones big back yard, or their immense property. I don'tknow why, it just did. The best thing would have been to make the other Tattooine level come first, then have the swoop bike through the dessert, then have the sandcrawler level. That would have made the levels come to life better.

 

Also that first Tattoine level, seemed a bit cramped to me. All it was was two circular arenas a a little bit of interior rooms. MOTS had so many cantinas that Mara actually says, "Not another cantina!" -Not a single one in JA. Ok well the Hutt's little bar sorta counts I guess.

 

Do you guys remember in MOTS in those several space port levels how there where lots of NPCs running around? Well that, of course, made the level pop, but you know what else did? The ambient sound sounded like a crouded street! Even though the NPCs were sparse, that sound effect helped to trick us. When you went into the many cantinas, there was a bar/drinking sounding ambience.

 

Every time I come back to this thread and my other one:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112829

 

-it makes me really wanna try to fix up Academy with subtle additions like that. I just wish I knew more than just modeling and textureing. I need QIII engine knowledge! Plus, it seems that it that JK series is going to have another hiatus (sp?) and we won't see another title for quite a while. On one hand that might be good, as Lucas Arts can go back to doing it themselves, or finding a worth developer. On the other hand, I don't wanna wait 4 years!!!

 

Keep this thread alive, I love hearing about this stuff. Plus it makes me really nostalgic for JK1, and MOTS.

 

BTW does anyone know how to play those two games without having to install DirectX 5.0? It doesn't let me around that option when I try to start the game. -Please tell me!

[frogbeastegg]

Originally posted by RSloan76

BTW does anyone know how to play those two games without having to install DirectX 5.0? It doesn't let me around that option when I try to start the game. -Please tell me!

 

I got JK working on windows XP last year; I couldn't get MOTS to work. If I remember correctly all I had to do was install it with compatibility mode set to Windows 95 (right click setup.exe or what ever it is called, select properties then compatibility) and refuse to install DX5.0. After the game installed I had to try all the compatibility settings for the game (same as above but this time with JK.exe) and I think windows 98 worked best for playing the game. Overall it worked quite well but it could be unstable and was full of oddities, for example all the force fields were blocks of colour instead of being transparent. It also ran too fast so I had to god mode it

 

Thinking back to JK/MOTS reminds me of another aspect of the two recent games which has changed significantly - swimming! In JK/MOTS you could swim properly and jump out of the water. Now you are confined to the surface and getting out of the water can be very tricky. There is nothing like the where you got your lightsabre in JK, that level was one massive water theme park. Water doesn't play a large part in the newer games so the new swimming system is mostly understandable but it is an example of a feature that made JK different from it's contemporaries and didn't carry over into the new engine.