Another kick thread...

[Rumor]

script kiddies? dude, scripts don't help as much as you really think they do. the best kickers play natural. not only that the competitive players most likely played games like q3 where scripting is a big tradition, and just about everyone has some form of script. they accept that, then move on. scripts don't make you some godly player, and a lot of times, they hinder your play. when i first started ff/so dueling i got ahold of a ptk script. i found out that i could do it 100x more effectively manually (yes, even on my pos 56k AOL modem.) because i wasn't fixed into one set pattern. i could do the ptk from a distance, up close, and combine it with other moves for high damage combos (upwards of 200 hp if you could get that much hp) and finish off my opponents. not until i got rid of that script did i improve. i was dependant on it and did not learn a damn thing until i ditched it.

[m_skywalker]

Heh, Ardent... this is going to sound like a flame, but I can't help myself. Your "you really don't want to get in to physics with me" comment made me laugh out loud, mainly because (and I'm speaking as a physicist, believe it or not) your first physics comment was complete nonsense and your second one wasn't much better.

 

That being said, I won't get in to an argument about it because of the following reasons: wtf is a "kinetic barrier" really? Who's to say the "barrier" exists only at the surface of the sphere (in fact, I don't see how it would be possible to project a field that only exists as a "shell" as opposed to a "solid" sphere)? Who's to say the visual effect we see in multiplayer actually represents what the field looks like "in reality" (in SP the shield effect is nearly skin-tight)? Assuming a shell, what makes you think the kick originates from inside the shell? The mass has to come in from somewhere, and the shell doesn't extend more than a foot or so around the player. Assuming a shell again, how do any of the player's attacks make it through the shield on the way out? How can you make any statements about how effective the velocity reduction of the shield is when the shield itself a completely hypothetical construct?

 

Get what I'm saying? The whole idea of a "kinetic barrier" in this context is so implausable that it makes no sense to speak about the physics of it, or how "realistic" it is. The most "realistic" description of a kinetic barrie I can imagine would be some kind of dampening field that applies a force that opposes the velocity of any massive particle(s) that enter the area of effect, like being encased in a sphere of water or something. But again, this begs the question, how does the shield user move around inside his own shield??? Crazy!!!

 

Hee hee!

[Rumor]

Originally posted by darth_michael

Heh, Ardent... this is going to sound like a flame, but I can't help myself. Your "you really don't want to get in to physics with me" comment made me laugh out loud, mainly because (and I'm speaking as a physicist, believe it or not) your first physics comment was complete nonsense and your second one wasn't much better.

 

That being said, I won't get in to an argument about it because of the following reasons: wtf is a "kinetic barrier" really? Who's to say the "barrier" exists only at the surface of the sphere (in fact, I don't see how it would be possible to project a field that only exists as a "shell" as opposed to a "solid" sphere)? Who's to say the visual effect we see in multiplayer actually represents what the field looks like "in reality" (in SP the shield effect is nearly skin-tight)? Assuming a shell, what makes you think the kick originates from inside the shell? The mass has to come in from somewhere, and the shell doesn't extend more than a foot or so around the player. Assuming a shell again, how do any of the player's attacks make it through the shield on the way out? How can you make any statements about how effective the velocity reduction of the shield is when the shield itself a completely hypothetical construct?

 

Get what I'm saying? The whole idea of a "kinetic barrier" in this context is so implausable that it makes no sense to speak about the physics of it, or how "realistic" it is. The most "realistic" description of a kinetic barrie I can imagine would be some kind of dampening field that applies a force that opposes the velocity of any massive particle(s) that enter the area of effect, like being encased in a sphere of water or something. But again, this begs the question, how does the shield user move around inside his own shield??? Crazy!!!

 

Hee hee!

 

then why does it damage your health and not your shields when you fall?

 

because its not a source of energy. thats what the shields "shield" against.

 

and realistic? sorry, its a game about starwars. its not realistic esp the fact that with our current technology there is no way to contain plasma, nor do "crystals" do the job. they don't have the em or gravitational pull necessary.

 

/edit: and now i remember to read the rest of your post lol. i guess we are saying the same thing about that then, eh?

[Ardent]

Originally posted by darth_michael

Heh, Ardent... this is going to sound like a flame, but I can't help myself. Your "you really don't want to get in to physics with me" comment made me laugh out loud, mainly because (and I'm speaking as a physicist, believe it or not) your first physics comment was complete nonsense and your second one wasn't much better.

 

Think so? Taken Theoretical Physics? Didn't think so.

 

That being said, I won't get in to an argument about it because of the following reasons: wtf is a "kinetic barrier" really?

 

A kinetic barrier is something their either dampens or deflects kinetic energy. In this case, it deflects, which means it operates on a plane of effect.

 

Who's to say the "barrier" exists only at the surface of the sphere (in fact, I don't see how it would be possible to project a field that only exists as a "shell" as opposed to a "solid" sphere)?

 

Well, if it was a "solid" sphere the person inside would be crushed by the force of the barrier itself, since it would want to fill the space the person occupies. But you know, me and my science, so silly really.

 

Who's to say the visual effect we see in multiplayer actually represents what the field looks like "in reality" (in SP the shield effect is nearly skin-tight)?

 

Is it? I don't know since I don't recall ever getting hit while I had shields and a saber out...but it's possible. That's just a leftover discrepency because two different teams developed the original SP and MP.

 

Assuming a shell, what makes you think the kick originates from inside the shell?

 

I dunno. Probably just all the animations that seem to indicate such. Nothing important, when you put it that way.

 

The mass has to come in from somewhere, and the shell doesn't extend more than a foot or so around the player.

 

Well the mass doesn't have to come from anywhere, because it's already present in the form of the person kicking your ass. But what you probably meant (and failed to convey) was that the mass somehow has to enter the kinetic barrier. Which is handled quite simply: a kinetic barrier would have a certain level of kinetic impact as it's "minimum" for affect. I mean, you wouldn't want your personal shield's screen being covered by splattered insects, would you?

 

Assuming a shell again, how do any of the player's attacks make it through the shield on the way out?

 

Above.

 

How can you make any statements about how effective the velocity reduction of the shield is when the shield itself a completely hypothetical construct?

 

You mean like math? Or science? Math & science (i.e. what we're using to quantify these theoretical absolutes) are both hypothetical in nature. So go figure. It's one of those prerogatives that was exercised and continues to be exercised by people intelligent enough to understand that sort of thing.

 

Get what I'm saying? The whole idea of a "kinetic barrier" in this context is so implausable that it makes no sense to speak about the physics of it, or how "realistic" it is.

 

So, Mr. Intro-to-Physics, what would be the realistic explanation? It's just a bunch of doody tied to string that the Jedi whips around really fast when someone fires a blaster at them?

 

The most "realistic" description of a kinetic barrie I can imagine would be some kind of dampening field that applies a force that opposes the velocity of any massive particle(s) that enter the area of effect, like being encased in a sphere of water or something.

 

You're close, but you fail to understand that in order to function effectively as either a container or a decontainer, it would have to force its field of effect to be a plane, admittedly a spherical plane, but a plane nonetheless.

 

But again, this begs the question, how does the shield user move around inside his own shield??? Crazy!!!

 

I don't know. How do you get up in the morning?

[Guest Jed]

[div3rse.jello], consider yourself warned. Improve your posting habits.

 

Everyone else, take it down a notch, it's a game remember.

[Kurgan]

Maybe it won't help this debate, but did any of you mess around with these in JA yet?

 

ChangKhan[Raven]

 

(Mike Gummelt of Raven Software)

 

(Originally posted on the Strategy Shack forums on 7/12/02, also various comments paraphrased)

 

ChangKhan[Raven] gives this advice:

 

"A reminder to dedicated server runners: I recommend that you set g_saberTraceSaberFirst to "1" only for duel modes, set it to "0" for all other modes. This will make the saber combat last longer (because blocks work more frequently) in duel mode, but they will be shorter in other modes."

 

He also says that g_SaberDamageScale 2 or 3 can be used for greater saber damage in non-Duel modes (like CTF where other weapons are present). Whereas a value of 1 is probably better for long-drawn out Duels.

 

When he says "Duel modes" I think he really means Sabers only modes (which includes most duels). You can check the command anytime by typing:

 

g_saberdamagescale (which the server option lists as "Multiplier for saber damage, does not modify 1-hitpoint damage done idly and in returns and such. For example, setting to 0.5 is half the normal damage, 2 is twice the normal damage") in the console and it will tell you what it's set to and the default for that gametype.

[Prime]

In JO I played on a few servers where saber damage was set to 2 or 3. This improved things considerable in my opinion.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Ardent

Can anyone give me a straight-forward answer as to why JO's kicks were bad aside from "it's not Star Wars?"

 

Many answers to this has been given.

 

Now tell me that kicking someone down and red hacking them as the followup isn't the only way to kill an FC who knows what they're doing.

 

And that you can still do.

 

Which I SHOULDN'T, as theoretically it's a weaker attack.

 

Weaker, Schmeaker - the lunge and the kick are weaker attacks as well. But they both work marvelously, despite delivering less damage per hit.

 

Now, as far as the what is and what isn't Star Wars issue. Star Wars, specifically the Jedi Knight franchise, offers players two things all other FPS games do not: force powers and lightsabers (e.g. a true in-depth melee combat mode). Now I realize this may not have occured to a lot of people but...ff saber only player satisfaction should be just as important as the ff gunner's and the nf s/o's and the opinions of nf gunners should be ignored.

 

That's a ridiculous argument - because you utilize something unique to JK, it doesn't give you the right to decide what's best for the game.

 

Imagine if I used only the crowbar in halflife, the various jumping techniques in UT2k3 and the BFG in Q3 - would that give me somehow *more right* to play the game than others?

 

The opinions of nf gunners should be *ignored*? They paid just as much as you did for the game, and they have just as much right to play and complain about it. Perhaps all these gunners wanted was to play with star wars guns in the star wars universe. There are many, many melee combat games (with a spell system to boot), which makes this aspect of JK decidedly not unique - if you want a "true in-depth melee combat mode", go play those instead of saying certain people's opinions here should be ignored. This is daft.

 

Kicks,

 

Yes, kicks - kicks are something that is not unique to JK, and which have been done better and more "in-depth" in tons of other games. Go play them.

 

But if you make them impossible to execute (literally, with two of the three saber styles and figuratively with the saberstaff form) you remove THIRTY-THREE PERCENT OF OUR ABILITY TO ENGAGE THE ENEMY and darn near 80% of our situation tactics.

 

What the hell is this supposed to mean? You either have an ability to engage an enemy or you don't - you can't have less of it. Perhaps you're talking about the various ways you can do this, but then your "33%" becomes a joke. If you add up all the attacks with which you can engage an enemy, kicks constitute a very, very low percent of those. What would the remaining 66% of your ability to engage an enemy consist of? Throwing the saber and using the DFA - gee, what "in-depth" this is. That number is pulled out of nowhere, and so is the 80% of "your situation tactics". They don't mean anything.

 

It's not that we think we're better (in most cases, we flat out are)

 

Better at what? Certainly not at explaining your position in a sympathetic manner.

 

Your horse is getting a bit too high for me.

 

(we're just in the best position to judge the game based on what makes it unique)

 

How neat. Please back that up. And explain what's so important about it being unique, and why this is has any bearing on why a patch should be made.

 

and it's not that we're out to flame anyone (but everyone seems to like to bait us...including people that shouldn't be).

 

Of course, I'll have to infer that you CTF people do *Not. Ever. Flamebait.* And since this is so much horsedung, I won't even begin to adress the oh so subtle personal attack on the moderators.

 

We just want the tool we feel we need to play the game the way we want to. You already have the game you want. Why are YOU complaining?

 

You can have your kick for my sake, just so I enjoy the peace after you've left. But rest assured, I'll still be here and make fun of your ridiculous attempts at being diplomatic in front of Raven.

[div3rse.draco]

Hey all. Some of you may know me as [div3rse.draco]. I have been playing JK2 since it came out and have seen every aspect of it. I've played 1.02, 1.03, 1.04 and the ctf both s/o and guns, ffa, and duels both nf and ff and in every case except the ctf gunners and nf duelers, kick is a major factor of the gametype. Due to the nature of JA and the heavy saber based system and also the way moves cost force has brought the s/o ctf community, a major part of the JK community to a point where we are disguisted with the game. Out of all the different kinds of games in JK2 i have played, s/o ctf is the gametype I have found to be the best IMO. The only ways people could kill flag carrier's has been removed. For the dark returners it was rage dfa mostly. For the light returners it was mostly pull throw and kicking down and killing (and for 1.02/1.03ers backslashing). However with the nerfing of dfa and the removal of kick, flag carriers have become nearly invincible, especially with a good guarder. Also, the JK2 full force duelers also are disappointed with the removal of grip kicking, and kicking in general. IMO this JA is made to be more like and rpg than an fps. Although the maps and moves are nice and all, they are not practical. A few of the ctf maps especially the new yavin one is much too big. Also, I keep hearing about how we should use the saber more. Well if you have a good flag carrer with the flag, not only do you have to worry about catching up to him, but it's nearly impossible to hit them once you do. The specials take much too long to do and only kill on a direct hit, which is nearly impossible. I have seen that lunge does good damage, which is a plus. However its still going to be really hard to kill any flag carriers will lunge and pull throw and maybe combos especially because lunge costs force now so it can only be used once or twice with speed on. Overall, I think this game was made for the no force dueler who wanted a true star wars feel. They got this, but it was at the cost of s/o ctf and ff duelers. In all honesty, I'm not going to play this game until I see a patch or an attempt by Raven/Lucasarts to fix and adapt the game to these players. Also, I think it is a bad idea to make the different gametypes have different damages. The JK community is split up enough as it is, this will separate them even more. I hope this game turns out as good as JK2, but I hope it is going to be supported as well and hopefully better than JK2, maybe with some manditory patches if possible, or even adding a CD key. Anyways I'm not going to ramble on anymore about more fixes, but if you go around reading some other posts around this forum you will get all the things that people want fixed.

 

[div3rse.draco]

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Ardent

How's your personal shield going to stop an attack that's coming from inside it? The damage isn't from kinetic energy...it's from the weight of the impact.

 

Actually, the damage that kicks deliver on a person is very much kinetic energy. Any moving object colliding with another transfers kinetic energy.

 

And the attack isn't coming from inside it. The kicker is trying to penetrate the shield with a physical object (himself), which is precisely what the flak cannon, missile launcher, repeater and crossbow is trying to do, only at a much higher velocity. And as the shield can resist a rocket attack (with the explosion coming "from inside it"), it should be taken to count for kicks as well.

 

But why are we even discussing this - you can have your kick, as long as it doesn't give the 20 hp in damage. If Raven does implement the double-tap kick again (which I wouldn't count on), it is not going to be better than the saberstaff kick.

 

Blocking is still broken in JA.

 

Blocking isn't "broken". It's as flawed as in JO, but by no means "broken". That sort of accusation has as much weight behind it as saying the entire saber combat is "broken".

 

EDIT: good post draco.

[traj]

Mods talking trash to LF forum members...wow

 

So, if we can use cvars to increase saber damage, why not cvars for kick?

 

If you're worried about fragmenting the community, that's exactly what different servers having different saber damage scales will do. Darth Schmoe will play on the servers with normal saber damage, and I won't play at all.

 

Why not include the server side option for kick? Darth Schmoe will play on the servers wihtout kick, and I will play on the servers with kick. Either way, we're never going to see each other because we like different things. This way, not only Darth Schmoe gets to play JA, I do too.

 

And that makes me happy.

[div3rse.draco]

Thank you, just thought I should left everyone know how a lot of the JK community feels. Almost every player I know from JK2 has been disappointed in JA and I am myself. I just hope Raven listens to all the emails it has been getting and take it all into consideration.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Ardent

Why would it? They had to remove it in the first place and that created an imbalance. They can just toss whatever it was they decided "balanced out" the loss of 33% of our arsenal.

 

Seems to me like it is VERY balanced if you get a tie at the end of the game...

 

Originally posted by Ardent

Hardly. If you're paying attention to something as petty as a kick (at worst a takedown if you have the first clue about defense...usually little more than a bruise otherwise) then you're leaving yourself open to an attack from your opponent's primary mode of offense: their weapon. If you and I were to use swords, you'd quickly find yourself sorely out-classed, I think. In order to compete in a freestyle tournament you need to be an acknowledged master of at least one form. As far as my kicking you...if you saw it coming, it wouldn't be coming (if you'll excuse the Tzuism). I'd be attacking where you weren't looking. As JO is now, there are plenty of ways to avoid a kick. Probably the best is to learn how to kick better than your opponent.

 

See, this is where you don't understand what you're talking about. A lightsabre is not a fencing rapier or a kendo stick. I don't bother playing with things that don't do damage. I'm talking about fighting with a single-edged or two-edged SWORD. You take a kick at me then your leg's coming off. No ifs, ands, or buts. When you are dealing with LETHAL force, you cannot afford to ignore any part of the opponent.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

Impact of mass against a body at rest, if you want to get into the nitty-gritty, is more than enough to cause damage most of the time. When you're talking about 50-100kg individuals, it's more than enough. A kinetic barrier which isn't at the layer of the skin (and it's obviously not...it's a spherical barrier surrounding the Jedi) can't protect someone against the impact of mass against their being. It can't even reduce the velocity noticeably at that point, as it's primary plane of deflection is outside of where most of the motion takes place. You really don't want to get into physics with me.

 

Forgive me for not knowing you were into theoretical physics. If you had actually made sense with what you said I wouldn't have mistaken my physics classes.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

Of course I want kicking back. It's integral to ff s/o ctf which is a significant share of the JO community (dare I say -- at least 33%). Which is a significant portion of sales LA/Raven was counting on.

 

It's integral to Jedi Knight 2 OUTCAST FF S/O CTF. Not Jedi Academy FF S/O CTF. New game; new tactics.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by traj

Mods talking trash to LF forum members...wow

 

I want a quote, now.

[traj]

Originally posted by C'jais

I want a quote, now.

[Prime]

Originally posted by traj

So, if we can use cvars to increase saber damage, why not cvars for kick?

The reason that was given in another thread by some competative S/O gamers (can't remember who) was that cvars were unaccaptable to alter gameplay because not everyone would use them.

 

Actually, if kicks do come back, I want for those servers with them enabled to at least be clearly marked, like how the sabers only and no force servers are. Some sort of icon...

[C'jais]

Traj, I meant I wanted a quote that outlined where you think I was "trash talking" him.

[traj]

Well, calling someone ridiculous, or a joke, and telling them to go play another game might not be trash talk. Just condescending asshole behavior.

 

My bad.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by traj

Well, calling someone ridiculous, or a joke, and telling them to go play another game might not be trash talk. Just condescending asshole behavior.

 

My bad.

 

Why exactly is this condescending @$$hole behavior, traj? YOUR community is asking me to play a game I DIDN'T buy: one with kicks. Try at least to be consistent.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by traj

Well, calling someone ridiculous, or a joke, and telling them to go play another game might not be trash talk. Just condescending asshole behavior.

 

I did not call him ridiculous, or a joke.

 

Please note that there's a difference between going for the man, and the argument.

 

Yes, I found some of his arguments to be less than stellar, but it doesn't mean I think the man is an idiot.

[traj]

No, I'm not asking you to play a game with kicks. I'm asking RAVEN to give me the option to play with kicks. You can still play without them all you want.

 

Whoa, the profanity filter doesn't work on asshole?

 

And to clarify. You never called anyone a joke or ridiculous, you called their statement or behavior a joke and ridiculous. To me that's the same thing though.

 

You did however tell them to go play another game. Not very nice.

Especially come from a mod in the forums where we are supposed to be able to talk about the game.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by traj

And to clarify. You never called anyone a joke or ridiculous, you called their statement or behavior a joke and ridiculous. To me that's the same thing though.

 

Except there's a very clear difference.

 

If you wanted to kill the president, I'd call that a very, very stupid thing to do, and you obviously have some sick views on human life. If this wasn't on a heavily modded message board, I'd probably call you an idiot as well. Let's call a spade a spade.

 

But this is getting way off the topic.

 

You did however tell them to go play another game. Not very nice.

Especially come from a mod in the forums where we are supposed to be able to talk about the game.

 

Yes, I did. I was repeating the same thing you've been telling other people all along - if you don't like kicks in JO, play another game. I don't find that insulting at all.

 

I'm not a mod here, I'm just your average user in this place.

 

And I'm not a very nice guy, really. Anything else you'd like to know?

[traj]

First of all, I have NEVER told anyone to go play another game. I want EVERYBODY to be able to enjoy this game. That's the difference between you and I.

 

All I want is an option added so that you can play the way you like and I can play the way I like.

 

And it says moderator by your name, maybe you should change it. And if you're not a nice guy, then I don't think you have any business moderating these forums.

[the weiner dog!]

Hi draco.

 

 

Don’t argue traj, remember they banned media because he made a sarcastic comment in response to a condescending remark a mod made towards him.

 

But at the same time we have had AXVegeta (who I have personally reported a 1/2 dozen times) calling us "faggots" and telling us to "f-uck off" (those are his direct words, not mine) in every thread where we try to discuss something yet no one bans him.

 

 

Don’t look for uniformity in the way rules are enforced here, you won't find it.

 

Anyways, traj is right (as is kurgan).

 

Cvars *can solve problems so why not give us one?

 

A cvar to:

 

-enable kicks

-take off the special 25 force use penalty

-remove the line of sight nerf to grip

-enable old style roll (unrestricted player movement)

 

This would make us all very happy and we would all go away and never ever bother any of you again.

 

 

Why is asking for this so wrong?

 

I can tell you why, a lot of you are (as traj eloquently put it) happy “as pigs in ****” that the game has been nerfed and slowed down to a simplistic pace and you no longer look as silly as you did in Jedi Outcast when you mash buttons and hop around like happy little Darth Mauls.

 

Put the complexity back in and remove all the nerfing and not only will you not look as cool, you will get beat all to hell like a lot of you did in Jedi Outcast.

 

Think I'm worng on that?

 

It was not *us bitching to take things like the spinning DFA and the back stab out of Jedi Outcast, it was most of *you guys who are being so vocal about "whining" now.

 

Most of you never really learned jack about full force saber only combat, you just hung out on ffa_bespin making human towers and /amsitting.

 

Of course if there is a movement to crank the game play back up to a hard core level that will require people to learn it if they want to succeed, those people are going to be very vocal about keeping it all nice and comfy in the land of the emote-ville.

 

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I can tell you why, a lot of you are (as traj eloquently put it) happy “as pigs in ****” that the game has been nerfed and slowed down to a simplistic pace and you no longer look as silly as you did in Jedi Outcast when you mash buttons and hop around like happy little Darth Mauls.

 

Sorry, this game is not nerfed. This is a new game. THIS IS NOT JO! Now, if a patch comes out and the weapons are even less lethal than they are in the first iteration, I will agree with your assertion that the game is nerfed.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Put the complexity back in and remove all the nerfing and not only will you not look as cool, you will get beat all to hell like you did in Jedi Outcast when we came to public servers for “laming” sessions every now and then.

 

I think you have the wrong game. We're talking about JA, not JO. Do try to keep up.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

 

Most of you never really learned jack about full force saber only combat, you just hung out on ffa_bespin making human towers and /amsitting.

 

How original. You can't rebut anything so you just use the great insult standby.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

 

Of course if there is a movement to crank this games game play back up to a hard core level that will require people to learn it to succeed, you people are going to be very vocal about keeping it all nice and comfy in the land of the emote-ville.

 

 

I am truly sorry. Crank up this game's play back to what? It's at the first iteration.

 

I do find a bit of irony in that changing one letter of your handle we get the whiner dog...