Gabrobot Posted September 27, 2003 Author Share Posted September 27, 2003 Originally posted by g//plaZma Yes it does sum it up, Rumor. Absorb, like all other force powers take mana (or force, for all you non-jk1 players) from your force pool. A good player will wait and strafe jump all over the map so you can't catch up to him till your forcepool is depleted and go in for the drain then, causing your force pool to go to 0 and stay there as long as he drains (unless you're on one of those lame servers that have g_forceregentime set to -9999999 or something). Last time I checked, you could turn absorb off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllKyNeSlll Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 no seriously, someone would simply just use lightning for split seconds and turn it off when absorb comes on and wait it out. And when they turn it off just lightning again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllKyNeSlll Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 And also drain doesn't give absorb more force. You can drain and the abosrber will still lose force. Simply listen. Only a newb would waste force draining on an abosrber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted September 27, 2003 Author Share Posted September 27, 2003 Well, if you say so...but... I just thought of something...if you're in a level where there aren't many high drops, how can kick help? It seems that if you kick them down, in JA, they'll be able to kick you back, roll to the side or do a flip thingy backwards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot Well, if you say so...but... I just thought of something...if you're in a level where there aren't many high drops, how can kick help? It seems that if you kick them down, in JA, they'll be able to kick you back, roll to the side or do a flip thingy backwards... Move around while they're on the ground (strafing to the side would be sufficiant to avoid a counter-kick), saberthrow them or just pull them (if they don't hit force push first) and kick them again. Same as how it worked in JO with an added danger of you getting kicked back if you don't move out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot Ah, you seem to lack the understanding or knowledge required to reply to boinga1's points, so instead you hint that you think he doesn't know what he's talking about. Well, please respond to his points...he's trying to offer a solution to your problem, which I don't think has been addressed yet (the solution, not the problem). I have also found that absorb is actually quite effective...I have had someone send a huge lightning attack (or other dark power attack) at me, and I end up losing no health and a full force bar. And being able to turn absorb off means I don't waste half my force because I thought someone would attack me with a dark power, and they didn't... Originally posted by Rumor clue·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klls) adj. Lacking understanding or knowledge. i think that sums it up pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SD_ReBoRN__ Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Garobot, your totally wrong about every thing you said. All competivie players want kick in the game. If you do not want kick there is an option to turn it off. The kick we have now is totally useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jello123 Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- clue·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klls) adj. Lacking understanding or knowledge. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i think that sums it up pretty well. i think that sums it up pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted September 27, 2003 Author Share Posted September 27, 2003 Originally posted by g//plaZma Move around while they're on the ground (strafing to the side would be sufficiant to avoid a counter-kick), saberthrow them or just pull them (if they don't hit force push first) and kick them again. Same as how it worked in JO with an added danger of you getting kicked back if you don't move out of the way. What about if the person on the ground roles to the side? From what I've seen, it's not possible to hit someone with saber throw when they're rolling (which they can start before the other player has time to throw their saber since the kick animation has to end). The player who was kicked would then be able to use drain to replenish any health back that was lost as a result of being kicked, and neither player would have gained anything. Originally posted by ap.havok If you do not want kick there is an option to turn it off.[/Quote] Unfortunately, I have to join other servers since I have a 56k connection, and can't host my own server with my own options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the weiner dog! Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 hi reborn/havoc. And guys let's clear this up once and for all, absorb is 99.99999% useless in 1v1 matches. It does have it's use in other game types, but in duels, light siders are at a serious disadvantage. Let me give you a detailed and simple example of how easy it is to rape one in a match as a dark: Match starts; we do the "Mexican standoff" (pacing back and forth looking for an opening). Short 1 1/2 second blast from level 2 lightning (from about 20 feet away). He takes the hit. Another short 1 1/2 second blast. He flips on absorb and rushes. I am still about 20 feet out (level 2 lightning has a very long range in case you didn't know) but I back out even further. I have no music on; my sound is all the way up as well. Hearing absorb is not an issue for me even at long rage. As I continue my retreat I also mentally count down in my head. Absorb has a duration time so when I get down to about 3 seconds, even if it's still on I turn and rush. The second it goes off I pepper him with another short lightning blast and he tries to chase again, I retreat yet again. Now let's look at where we are at: He's got hit with almost 4-5 seconds of lightning at level 2; chances are he's around 60 hp. He's activated absorb twice, and as you all know there is an initial activation cost and your force pool ticks down gradually as it is left on. Not to mention when he had it on, I did not pull him or use any power like lightning that would add to his pool (hence the retreat strategy). So his pool is pretty damn low, his hp is almost 1/2 gone as well. Me? 100 hp and a full pool. Time to move in for the kill. Keep backing off until the absorb shuts off, the second it's off he's going to run like hell because he's totally exposed due to having only like 15 force left in his pool. Once it's turned off I drain him down to 0 with a 1/2 second blast. From this point on I drain and chip non stop. He has no defense so I do two immediate back to back pull throws for 60 damage. If by some miracle he's still alive, again, all I have to do is regen 5 force points (to bring me to 25, the minimum number to activate drain) to start the non stop drain whoring so he's s.o.l either way. Trust us guys, light *can be pulled off in duels but very damn few people are good enough to do it. And even then, those who are great light side players can't do it on every map. Some maps that are large and have lot's of places and spots to evade can make it easier, but the majority of maps are "boxed in" confined places and you simply have no where to run and regen. Now in Outcast, we had developed a way to use mind trick in conjunction with kicks to combat drain whoring, but again, with kicks gone mind trick is useless once more. You swing, it turns off. Your swings don't do high damage, you get drained and he's 100 hp and you are screwed because you have 0 force now. Also you need to understand that the knock down in a duel was more of a "set up". Where as in CTF it was the "key to the kill". They (CTF) could kick + dfa and such, in duels that stuff simply does not work. We drop a guy, we rush him, throw a saber *as you run in, aim it high so he flips up *into it, and as he springs up kick him out of the air and launch into another follow up combo for the finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxVegetA Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Are you able to defend yourself against lightning with the saber? at least in SP you can. Hey wheiner dog whoever uses that strategy is a fag noob. You know that the other can chase-pull you right? also, when using drain you have no defense for a second, i can saber throw you to the head and youll be dead in that second. Also i can use speed to chase and smash you, oviusly if i fail you have the advantage because i would be out of force. I wouldnt bother to turn absorb if you light me with level 2. I would just strafe jump toward you and cut your head off. Are you aware that i can run away from you too? I can hide heal and so on. But i guess overall you are right, dark side is more powerfull than light side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted September 27, 2003 Share Posted September 27, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot Ah, you seem to lack the understanding or knowledge required to reply to boinga1's points, so instead you hint that you think he doesn't know what he's talking about. Well, please respond to his points...he's trying to offer a solution to your problem, which I don't think has been addressed yet (the solution, not the problem). Trust us, if you've thought of it, we've tried it. I have also found that absorb is actually quite effective...I have had someone send a huge lightning attack (or other dark power attack) at me, and I end up losing no health and a full force bar. And being able to turn absorb off means I don't waste half my force because I thought someone would attack me with a dark power, and they didn't... Nobody is saying absorb is ineffective. We're saying it isn't the be-all and end-all of FF dueling. In fact, if you're a light side FF duelist, you're either totally awesome or pretty terrible. It is a LOT harder to win a FF duel when you're light side. Drain > heal. Rage > Protect. Lightning > Mind Trick. Grip > Absorb. Dark side force powers are just eminently more useful in the 1v1 setting. Which doesn't mean you can't win as a light side FF duelist, because I know I have. You're just not going to do as well as you could if you played dark side. Hence, you're clueless about the gametype. As far as my not addressing your prior points, they're not worth addressing. The vehicle code isn't all that new, there's just more of it to account for new types of mounts. When you get right down to it, nothing done in JA is new. It's all been done before, and we're not complaining about its inclusion. But the game is, by its nature, largely the same code when you dissect it. There's more of it, yes, and some of it's new, yes, but the point that the game could have been released as a mod for Jedi Outcast is pretty viable. Drop the new terrain system, ghoul2 targetting and the improved EAX soundwork and it very much is JO with a few new features. Thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted September 28, 2003 Author Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent Trust us, if you've thought of it, we've tried it. Nobody is saying absorb is ineffective. We're saying it isn't the be-all and end-all of FF dueling. In fact, if you're a light side FF duelist, you're either totally awesome or pretty terrible. It is a LOT harder to win a FF duel when you're light side. Drain > heal. Rage > Protect. Lightning > Mind Trick. Grip > Absorb. Dark side force powers are just eminently more useful in the 1v1 setting. Which doesn't mean you can't win as a light side FF duelist, because I know I have. You're just not going to do as well as you could if you played dark side. Hence, you're clueless about the gametype. I never claimed to have any experience with being a FF duelist. I was just stating my observation a made when I was playing a FFA game. I was just trying to find out why absorb wasn't as effective with you, since I don't play without guns. The way things are balanced works fine in Siege...I think that's where Raven put their focus on. Originally posted by Ardent As far as my not addressing your prior points, they're not worth addressing. The vehicle code isn't all that new, there's just more of it to account for new types of mounts. When you get right down to it, nothing done in JA is new. It's all been done before, and we're not complaining about its inclusion. But the game is, by its nature, largely the same code when you dissect it. There's more of it, yes, and some of it's new, yes, but the point that the game could have been released as a mod for Jedi Outcast is pretty viable. Drop the new terrain system, ghoul2 targetting and the improved EAX soundwork and it very much is JO with a few new features. I think I'd better make it clear that I actually know a bit about this area so you can't go around making false statements in regard to this. There was no vehicle code at all in JKII multiplayer. None. And the vehicle code in SP was done for the specific vehicles...editors couldn't create their own. Raven has made a vehicle system, in JA, which did not exist in JKII, in either SP or MP. This system is on the same level as that of the NPC system (and in fact the two are somewhat connected since there must be a NPC for the vehicle). If vehicle support was so easy, it would have been done in JKII. Now I'm going to list some features that are now in MP: - shader limit 16 times higher then that of JKII (I noticed you never mentioned anything about this despite the fact that this is a somewhat major change). - ICARUS II scripting - Raven's ARIOCHE terrain system - portal skies - Ghoul II enhancements including the Ghoul infinite Model modification system - Allows for modular model enhancements, custom colorization, and expanded animation support Ok, sure if you remove all those, you'd get about what JKII is...but that's why JA isn't JKII, because it has all of the above. Things like the shader limit, ARIOCHE terrain, portal skies and the Ghoul II enhancements aren't things that a mod can do. These are enhancements to the game engine itself and would require a change to the JKII MP executable. Oh, another thing...a large mod team started a co-op mod for JKII, but gave up because they couldn't get the NPCs and ICARUS scripting worked out (I don't think they even had any code for the scripting system...). They also couldn't get past a NPC limit that's lower in JKII MP then in JKII SP (something which was in the executable and not changeable)...there were too many NPCs in the Raven SP JKII levels. And about the importance of the shader limit...this is probably the single most important problem, in my opinion (and all the other SP level editors...probably any MP editors trying to make large levels, as well. Even the mighty Anthony Piggott himself couldn't release his level because it hit the limit.), with JKII from an editing stand point. I had to split up two of the levels, in the SP JKII (I'll probably just release it for JA though) episode I'm making, when I added metashadered (with a lightmap. Oh, and metashading is somewhat broken in JKII SP, and I doubt it even works in MP since JKII MP is so limited.) terrain (not very big either...only a 4096 unit square). It hit a shader limit because of how many surfaces the terrain had, as well as the lightmap and the fact that I was using Q3map2 instead of Sof2map. In JA, if it lacked these features, it would be impossible for Siege to work very well, since the levels would have to be either really small with no terrain, or big with no detail and no terrain. Also, even though you probably never noticed, in the Hoth Siege level, the mountains are done in real time. In fact they are part of a portal skybox, and the terrain is using the ARIOCHE terrain system. So basically, if all these features were not in JA, the levels in JA would also not be there as they require the changes made to the engine and renderer. The levels in JA can't be done in JKII. JKII's version of the Team Arena engine doesn't have the technology required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{DHU}Screed Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 How about this, you all STFU and go /amsit around in circles singing koombaya in the new Jedi Council room FFA map. YOu bunch of RPG faggots! There im done posting about this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot I never claimed to have any experience with being a FF duelist. I was just stating my observation a made when I was playing a FFA game. I was just trying to find out why absorb wasn't as effective with you, since I don't play without guns. The way things are balanced works fine in Siege...I think that's where Raven put their focus on. I think I'd better make it clear that I actually know a bit about this area so you can't go around making false statements in regard to this. There was no vehicle code at all in JKII multiplayer. None. And the vehicle code in SP was done for the specific vehicles...editors couldn't create their own. Raven has made a vehicle system, in JA, which did not exist in JKII, in either SP or MP. This system is on the same level as that of the NPC system (and in fact the two are somewhat connected since there must be a NPC for the vehicle). If vehicle support was so easy, it would have been done in JKII. Now I'm going to list some features that are now in MP: - shader limit 16 times higher then that of JKII (I noticed you never mentioned anything about this despite the fact that this is a somewhat major change). - ICARUS II scripting - Raven's ARIOCHE terrain system - portal skies - Ghoul II enhancements including the Ghoul infinite Model modification system - Allows for modular model enhancements, custom colorization, and expanded animation support Ok, sure if you remove all those, you'd get about what JKII is...but that's why JA isn't JKII, because it has all of the above. Things like the shader limit, ARIOCHE terrain, portal skies and the Ghoul II enhancements aren't things that a mod can do. These are enhancements to the game engine itself and would require a change to the JKII MP executable. Oh, another thing...a large mod team started a co-op mod for JKII, but gave up because they couldn't get the NPCs and ICARUS scripting worked out (I don't think they even had any code for the scripting system...). They also couldn't get past a NPC limit that's lower in JKII MP then in JKII SP (something which was in the executable and not changeable)...there were too many NPCs in the Raven SP JKII levels. And about the importance of the shader limit...this is probably the single most important problem, in my opinion (and all the other SP level editors...probably any MP editors trying to make large levels, as well. Even the mighty Anthony Piggott himself couldn't release his level because it hit the limit.), with JKII from an editing stand point. I had to split up two of the levels, in the SP JKII (I'll probably just release it for JA though) episode I'm making, when I added metashadered (with a lightmap. Oh, and metashading is somewhat broken in JKII SP, and I doubt it even works in MP since JKII MP is so limited.) terrain (not very big either...only a 4096 unit square). It hit a shader limit because of how many surfaces the terrain had, as well as the lightmap and the fact that I was using Q3map2 instead of Sof2map. In JA, if it lacked these features, it would be impossible for Siege to work very well, since the levels would have to be either really small with no terrain, or big with no detail and no terrain. Also, even though you probably never noticed, in the Hoth Siege level, the mountains are done in real time. In fact they are part of a portal skybox, and the terrain is using the ARIOCHE terrain system. So basically, if all these features were not in JA, the levels in JA would also not be there as they require the changes made to the engine and renderer. The levels in JA can't be done in JKII. JKII's version of the Team Arena engine doesn't have the technology required. We're talking about gameplay not pretty graphics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by g//plaZma We're talking about gameplay not pretty graphics. I think plaz hit the crux of the issue at hand. Graphics and technical boosts are nice but...well...I still play NES and SNES games. So they're obviously not the be-all and end-all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent I think plaz hit the crux of the issue at hand. Graphics and technical boosts are nice but...well...I still play NES and SNES games. So they're obviously not the be-all and end-all. I think the point of Gabrobot's post is that despite assertions that JA is just a mod of JO, JA has a LOT more than JO and that features couldn't be in the game because support for them ISN'T THERE. It is highly unlikely that JA could have so much additional code without having at least some impact on gameplay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage I think the point of Gabrobot's post is that despite assertions that JA is just a mod of JO, JA has a LOT more than JO and that features couldn't be in the game because support for them ISN'T THERE. It is highly unlikely that JA could have so much additional code without having at least some impact on gameplay... You're talking about ultimately separate code. Except in the case of ghoul2 none of this directly affects gameplay in any significant way, and nobody seems to be terribly impressed with the highly buggy ghoul2. You could pull out the ARIOCHE engine and replace it with the old one and the game would still run (although not properly without a lot of de-bugging). The end. The point we've been trying to make is that everything we loved JO for is still in there. We want a cvar to access one of those things. That's all. We've actually written a bunch of e-mails and have received positive responses. Raven didn't seem to realize that flip-kicking was so integral to at least one mode of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted September 28, 2003 Author Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent You're talking about ultimately separate code. Except in the case of ghoul2 none of this directly affects gameplay in any significant way, and nobody seems to be terribly impressed with the highly buggy ghoul2. You could pull out the ARIOCHE engine and replace it with the old one and the game would still run (although not properly without a lot of de-bugging). The end. You don't seem to be getting the point...there was never a terrain engine like ARIOCHE in JKII. If you pulled it out of JA, JA would crash when it would try loading a level which has ARIOCHE generated terrain (which is many of the levels in the game)...this is because the JA engine has to build the terrain, from a height map, in the level when the level is loading. I won't go into this further since you don't seem capable of understanding these simple concepts... And about the Ghoul II...there isn't anything wrong with it. The problem is the lag. It's just that now you have to be more accurate so it becomes more noticeable. (Ghoul II works fine in the bot matches) And about gameplay...you seem to be completely ignoring Siege. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Raven just made sure that the other gametypes, besides Siege, worked with the tweaks, they made because of Siege, when played without disabling guns? Siege has a new type of gameplay due to the addition of objectives, vehicles and larger levels...I don't remember ever playing anything like Siege in JKII, and one of the reasons Siege plays differently is the fact that it's levels are larger because the engine can handle larger levels now! Sure it may be "pretty graphics", but when the level is barely chugging along at 5 fps with most of it, and the models in it, textured with the default grid texture, it directly affects the gameplay. Not to mention you wouldn't even be able to make a level on the same scale as what's possible in JA, without crashes occuring. One last thing I would like to make a note about. To me (and it seems Raven, as well, since they focused their attention on SP in both JKII and JA), multiplayer is just an addition to SP. Why do I say this? Because what is done in MP is always determined by whether it's in SP. There isn't a Chewie model, in JA, to appease RPGers (who gives a **** about them...this is an action game). The reason it's there is because Chewie is in SP. It's the same for all the other models. It has JKII models so that JA is backwards compatible. (That's not all it needs...JA also needs to "automagically" convert JKII levels for them to work.) Also, the locations for the levels are all locations from the SP game (there are some exceptions, like the Bespin duel level, but that's possible because JA includes JKII's textures. JKII had Bespin textures because it was a location in SP). The reason I bring that up is that some people don't seem to realize that the stuff they're playing wasn't the main focus of Raven's attention and might not hold up well when people's skills get abnormally high in it. (Abnormal, as in the gametype, with certain tools turned off *hint*guns*hint*, wasn't intended to be played with such highly developed skill.) Anyway, I would rather someone made a mod for you to keep you happy...that seems far better then Raven adding an option in a patch. If it's just a mod, public servers won't use it since it's just a mod and not an official option. If it's a mod, then the small group of people with highly developed skill can use it on their servers, since they have their own servers anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by Gabrobot Anyway, I would rather someone made a mod for you to keep you happy...that seems far better then Raven adding an option in a patch. If it's just a mod, public servers won't use it since it's just a mod and not an official option. If it's a mod, then the small group of people with highly developed skill can use it on their servers, since they have their own servers anyway. Agreed. I'd rather see this group of people develop a mod (Mr. Hex, have you started one yet? According to you it's all the same code. ) for JA to add their specific options back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jello123 Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 heh i think you know why he hasnt started yet dont ask stupid questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted September 28, 2003 Author Share Posted September 28, 2003 Oh, and here's something Emon posted about the changes in JA's engine: Originally posted by Emon On the contrary. - Higher resolution textures - Higher resolution and much more detailed lightmaps - Per-pixel dynamic lighting - Per-pixel dynamic glow, even beats out Splinter Cell - Per-pixel distortion effects, seen on Push/Pull - Much larger worlds with far more detail, they look far less plain and cartoony - Lighting doesn't look like **** in MP - Various artistic details such as footprints and other design touches They could have done some insane lighting effects with Q3Map2, but then you'd be compromising performance on middle to low end systems, which is not an option for many developers. I myself and rather impressed with what Raven has done to the engine, most notable are the per-pixel shaders and lighting. OpenGL extensions aren't standardized for that kind of advanced stuff, and I congradulate Raven for pulling it off, making it look good and run fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g//anarki Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Ok let me state it clearer for you since you're still going on about graphics and the updated engine and the size of maps and how JA can handle big maps that JO couldn't. We're talking about gameplay dynamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted September 28, 2003 Author Share Posted September 28, 2003 So you're saying that huge out door levels have the same gameplay dynamics as small cramped inside levels? Siege's gameplay dynamics are not possible in JKII because JKII can't handle levels which are large enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jello123 Posted September 28, 2003 Share Posted September 28, 2003 Originally posted by =X=Master HeX From a programmers point of view I just want to give people a bit of closure on what I've observed. JA contains LOTS of the same code from JO. Don't tell me it doesn't when I know for a fact that there were traces of just about all the "new" aspects in the original JO. Most the default models contained the EXACT replica of saber-staff butterfly and cartwheels. Ghoul2 locational dmg was already in the works in the JO code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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