vegietto Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 But how are you faithful to God? i'm not that much i am kind of not that religious i am trying to start tho. Cause he made us that is why he made the life we live the enivornment so we have to make him happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weiderudare Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Do I act as we live in a perfect world? Blaming God? Listen pal. I don't live in a perfect family. My parents have gotten divorced, I have been betrayed by my friends and picked on at school. So don't come here saying that I think the worlds perfect. Cause as long as the humans still lives here, it won't be perfect. And blaming God, how can I blame something that doesn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegietto Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 ok man i know how u feel my parents our divorced and i am picked on in school but both my parents hate me i can't stand so i do know it isn't perfect ok man my mom makes excuses every weekend so she don't have to come get me and my dad always yelled at me but i ingore them i can't stand them so that is why i wish my life was perfect but unfortuately mine isn't and i can't do anything about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Ok then, what defines a christian? How should we live to get Gods attenion? Killing people in Gods name has been done many times, and if their not christians, then what are they? And what about the other religions? Do the moslems have wrong? Weve talked about all of this... reread page (3?) I said how to become a christian. Ive said it several times. What are they? Liars. Or people who have been decieved. Click Here You have resorted to Choice no.3 MANY times Luke. lol, true, when i dont post based on something you or someone has said, its either because i missed it, i forgot to, or i agree with you. But yeah, ive changed my views because of some of what you and others have said. But how are you faithful to God? Paul(Is that his name?) wrote letters telling people not to marry ecother. If God is so great and forgiving, why do we have to live a certain way to be accepted by him/her/it You may have read the bible 2 times, but it must have been a while back. I try to be faithful to God, but like everyone else, i should work harder. Paul said there is nothing wrong with marriage. He said expect trouble if you decide to marry. But he said it was a good thing. Answere my question then ill answere yours. Why should God accept you when you dont accept him? Do I act as we live in a perfect world? Blaming God? Listen pal. I don't live in a perfect family. My parents have gotten divorced, I have been betrayed by my friends and picked on at school. So don't come here saying that I think the worlds perfect. Cause as long as the humans still lives here, it won't be perfect. And blaming God, how can I blame something that doesn't exist? Ok, i apoligize for being judgmental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weiderudare Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 So you mean that everybody except the christians that "live" right is liars? That means that only about 3-7 million people have right... Thats not many. Why would God accept me if I haven't accepted him? In the bible, its said that God is allforgiving. But when Moses say a line wrong, he is not allowed to get into Kanaan. And about the Paul thing, he says something like:If your married, fine, but if your not, don't. And about you taking choice no.3 often makes me a bit sad.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 lol, true, when i dont post based on something you or someone has said, its either because i missed it, i forgot to, or i agree with you. Nope - not true. You have proven TIME AND TIME AGAIN you are MORE Than willing to refuse rational, reasonable arguments even if you have no rational argument or evidence to counter it. You didn't just 'forget' them, or 'miss' them - you DISMISS them. Deny it again, and I WILL find the quotes to prove my point. In fact, I'll show you one brief example I spend 5 seconds finding. Believe me, I can find MANY more for you: I have not completly closed my mind, just partially (about the bible) So this means literally no amount of evidence or rational arguments will bring you to the point where you question the validity of the Bible - thereby you admit that even if you claim you haven't had to use option 3 yet (maybe you don't think any of the things you've heard constitute a rational argument...), you freely admit to being WILLING to use option no.3 if nessesary... In short: If you claim the validity or 'divine' nature of the Bible CANNOT be questioned, you automatically forfeit yourself from any serious discussion about truth... I on the other hand, would NEVER DREAM of stating that any principle I hold to be the truth could NOT be questioned... THAT is the clear difference between our debating abilities Luke... My mind is NEVER closed - or at least I try my hardest to keep it as open as possible on any subject. You have freely admitted yours is CLOSED on at least one topic - and is quite obviously CLOSED concerning many other topics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Keralys Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 As a response to CTBD, I would like to point out that humans are all closed-minded. Regardless of how open you try to be, the very fact that there are certain things that you fundamentally believe about the world (something that all humans must have to maintain their sanity) insists that you are closed-minded on certain topics. You have to be. It's simply psychology that humans need constants. Moreover, everyone has a certain paradigm or worldview that they ascribe to, whether consciously or not. Luke is being rational enough to at least acknowledge his closed mind on that topic. You're not. Regardless of how much proof is presented to to you, you will not believe, because you don't want to. Moreover, you cannot truly prove a religion. If you could, it wouldn't require faith. But you can show that there are parts of it that are logical and probable. That has been done repeatedly throughout this thread, though you refuse to acknowledge it. I now proceed to take up Pascalian logic: If agnostics/atheists are right and Christians are wrong, what have Christians lost? BUT! If Christians are right and atheists are wrong, the atheists/agnostics lose bad. I don't know about you, but I know where I'd rather be in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Homuncul It's like you're hating god instead of criticizing it here. But I see it this way: you try to attribute to god some human characteristics, judging him from human perspective, while god's reasoning assuming his omnipotency and omniscience is perhaps something incomprehendable to us. If I wasn't .... I don't know who I am actually.... I would have said that god still has a plan in the long term, and that for all of this there was some kind of sadistic reason (judging with human criteria). I think the Holocaust is not the best example to try to criticize god. I'm not hating God, I'm criticizing. Allow me to elaborate... "God has a plan for everyone" is something commonly said by many christians. I heard it all the time when my friend died, and it annoyed the crap out of me. As such, I gave it a lot of thought. God has a plan. Ok, I can buy that. We all have plans. I can also buy that Gods plan is more important than mine. After all, he is god. I question his methods in implementing this "plan." Many people claim God to be benevolent, kind, and just, as well as all powerful. And this is where I have a problem. Suppose Little Johnny contracts a flesh eating virus which eats him alive over the course of 6 months. He is in horrible pain, and dies slow. Upon his death, his relatives console the mother with "God has a plan for everyone." Did Gods plan involve torturing an innocent child? If so, then he is, by no means, benevolent. I dont care how omnipotent or all knowing he is. Torturing innocent kids is not benevolent or kind, not by any standards. Perhaps God needed Little Johnny in heaven? Make up a reason, maybe God needed someone to get him some Starbucks (hey, even God needs some Starbucks sometimes, he put it there). Well, wouldnt there be a better way to get Little Johnny to heaven? I'm not anywhere near omnipotent or all knowing, and I can think of dozens of ways to bump off Johnny quickly and painlessly. A little brain aneurism, a car accident that results in instant death, etc. I could go on and on. So he could not be benevolent, or he's not all powerful. If he is one, then he is not the other. Maybe God needed to torture little Johnny to teach the others around him a lesson (whatever that could be). Again, aren't there better ways to teach a lesson to people than flesh eating viruses? Or, the HIV virus, while we're at it. "You're all wrong, so I'm gonna take this innocent kid and dissolve him over the next six months, then NOT tell you what I mean by it or why I'm doing it. That way, you'll learn a lesson..... *cough*..." Sorry, again, that makes no sense by any logic. Maybe God has his omnipotent reasons and I cant comprehend them? Sorry, I can't resolve myself to simply saying "Oh well, I can't know." Because i want to know. And if God expects me to follow him and follow his rules, then I damn well better know what I'm getting into, and I'd prefer to hear it from God him/herself, rather than a 3000 year old book that may or may not be totally legit. [/rant] Sorry, kinda blanked out and typed like mad. Wow, that was fast... No, I dont hate God. I just want to know why he allows things to happen the way they do. My guess is he is either A) Not all powerful.. or B) He's not benevolent. Keralys, in response to your Pascalian Logic.... It doesnt work, because according to the Christians very own beliefs, it takes faith, deep faith, to truly be saved. I mean, you really, really have to believe in God and believe that Jesus saved you and so on. Luc Solar made a post a while back that reflected my opinions perfectly. We cannot believe because we simply cannot believe. It doesnt matter how hard we try to believe, we can't! He made the analysis of something like "Do you believe that the Finnish basketball team will win in the Olympics? No? Ok, now really, really try to believe it. You have to believe it. Your life depends on it!...... Do you believe it? Honestly? Didn't think so." Some people can make these leaps of faith, be it through their upbringing or psychological makeup. But some of us want more than someone elses word to go on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Luke is being rational enough to at least acknowledge his closed mind on that topic. You're not.... ...Moreover, you cannot truly prove a religion. If you could, it wouldn't require faith First of all, if my mind is closed in anyway, then I am at fault, and I should change. You are right, as humans we are infalliable and almost certainly we are all - to a certain or lesser extent - closed minded in various ways, even without realising it. ...but at least I'm TRYING to be as open minded as possible. An important point to make, though, is that it is not closed minded to come to a conclusion on the 'truth' based on the evidence available. Example: I have come to the conclusion, based on the evidence, that the Earth is not flat. ...someone could argue that I have CLOSED my MIND to the idea of the Earth being flat. But the truth is I haven't closed my mind to it. I have just dismissed the possibility due to the absense of any subsantial evidence to back that claim, and the MOUNDS of evidence there is avaliable to discount it. ...it's simple really. Any part of that you want to claim is CLOSED MINDED? So - dismissing certain possibilies due to lack of evidence is NOT closed minded - that is the only way we human beings have to determine truth that isn't irrational... You can come to your conclusion of the truth - fine. I can come to mine - fine again. The REAL problem comes when you say your idea of the 'truth' can't be questioned, or I say my idea of the 'truth' can't be questioned. I have NEVER said anything I consider 'truth' can't be questioned. (even the Earth not being flat!!). Try and find an instance of it - you won't. In this manner, I am NOT closed-minded. However, if somebody tries to question my idea of 'truth' in an illogical and irrational manner, I will not acknowlege that. I HAVE done that MANY times, and make no exuses for it... Aha. And thank you Master_Keyalys - you have now used the all-important word... ...FAITH! ...finally, you are completely dropping the impression of rational discussion!! The implication is that something such as religion cannot be proven to a reasonable degree - therefore you HAVE to have a certain amount of faith in order to believe it. ...what an interesting concept! If Religion is truth, and... truth can be proven (to a resonable degree)... therefore... religion can be proven (to a reasonable degree) - if it is truth. THe only point to debate then is: 'What is a reasonable degree of proof'. Of course - the sweeping declaration that Religion cannot be completely proven, and therefore REQUIRES Faith is VERY VERY convinent! THis basically means you only have to produce a MINIMUM amount of evidence, and you only have to dispute a FRACTION of any rational claims made against your arguments. Anything else can be comfortably swept away with the concept of 'Faith'. If you want to beleive in something (true or untrue), Faith is great. However, if you want to come to some kind of solid conclusion of what is ACTUALLY true, then Faith is in many ways your worst enemy... Regardless of how much proof is presented to to you, you will not believe, because you don't want to. Utter rubbish. I have opened myself to any 'proof' presented to me and given it due consideration. Again, please present me with one example where I haven't... And I don't believe not because i don't WANT to - I don't beleive because the evidence does not warrant it from my analysis. But you can show that there are parts of it that are logical and probable. That has been done repeatedly throughout this thread, though you refuse to acknowledge it. Any parts of christian (or any religious) arguments that I have agreed upon as being logical and probable I HAVE acknowledged. And I have NO problem with the idea that certain aspects of Christian (or any other religious) thinking are logical. But certain parts have no real rational basis. I don't even have to try and show this - you make this clear by admitting you need FAITH to believe in it!! I now proceed to take up Pascalian logic: If agnostics/atheists are right and Christians are wrong, what have Christians lost? BUT! If Christians are right and atheists are wrong, the atheists/agnostics lose bad. I don't know about you, but I know where I'd rather be in that. Again - a typical irrational religious outlook on the truth. The truth is the truth is the truth. How it benefits or DOES NOT benefit my personal position, or your personal position, is ABSOLUTELY IRRELAVENT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Keralys, in response to your Pascalian Logic.... It doesnt work, because according to the Christians very own beliefs, it takes faith, deep faith, to truly be saved. I mean, you really, really have to believe in God and believe that Jesus saved you and so on. Luc Solar made a post a while back that reflected my opinions perfectly. We cannot believe because we simply cannot believe. It doesnt matter how hard we try to believe, we can't! He made the analysis of something like "Do you believe that the Finnish basketball team will win in the Olympics? No? Ok, now really, really try to believe it. You have to believe it. Your life depends on it!...... Do you believe it? Honestly? Didn't think so." Some people can make these leaps of faith, be it through their upbringing or psychological makeup. But some of us want more than someone elses word to go on.... Well said Shock / Luc Solar, and good point. ...at least it is accepted as a good point by those of us who are thinking rationally. (I know - rational thinking - what a sinful attitude! We are SO SO BAD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Ok, so a virus just pops out of no where, and is only spread through sex,... Every 24 hrs (maybe 12) it changes... or something ... So its practically impossible to make a vaccine. 1. Not out of no where. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed... it mutated from something else, most likely another related virus. 2. It isn't spread "only through sex." It is spread through fluidic exchange. Sex is but one vector. The virus itself is anaerobic and cannot survive outside of bodily fluids. 3. The mutation rate isn't near that frequent. The reasons antiviral drugs have thus far been largely ineffective is the way in which the virus works. The HIV has found its niche and has little to fear. Ironically, there is a non-deleterious genetic mutation called CCR5-delta 32 and is present in approximately 10% of all whites of European decent and 2% in central Asia. The mutation is completely absent among East Asians, Africans, and American Indians. So it seems obvious that if the HIV is a "punishment of god," then his real target isn't sexual amorality but the "savage races" of our planet. At least 10% of whites are free to engage in whatever sex they choose.... Who knows what reason God has for that? The idea that a god created even one disease as a punishment doesn't hold water. There are too many inconsistencies with the notion. One would expect a god to be more efficient for one. Also, one would expect a god to make it known how, what and why the punishment is administered.... What good is the punishment if it isn't obvious to those being punished or to those who might learn from it? No, HIV/AIDS is not a divine message/intervention/punishment. It is exactly what we expect: a disease that proliferates in part due to the behavior of the species in which it afflicts. Once HIV is defeated, there will be a new one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 So you mean that everybody except the christians that "live" right is liars? That means that only about 3-7 million people have right... Thats not many. I wasnt talking about that! I was talking about the people who claim to be christians, and directly knowingly do something aweful. But then again, all sin is equal, so i guess by me just lying, or doing something wrong would make me a liar something to think about. 1. Not out of no where. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed... it mutated from something else, most likely another related virus. 2. It isn't spread "only through sex." It is spread through fluidic exchange. Sex is but one vector. The virus itself is anaerobic and cannot survive outside of bodily fluids. 3. The mutation rate isn't near that frequent. The reasons antiviral drugs have thus far been largely ineffective is the way in which the virus works. The HIV has found its niche and has little to fear. Ironically, there is a non-deleterious genetic mutation called CCR5-delta 32 and is present in approximately 10% of all whites of European decent and 2% in central Asia. The mutation is completely absent among East Asians, Africans, and American Indians. So it seems obvious that if the HIV is a "punishment of god," then his real target isn't sexual amorality but the "savage races" of our planet. At least 10% of whites are free to engage in whatever sex they choose.... Its possible. But any person is free (just about.. over 18 i guess) to engage in whatever sex they choose. The idea that a god created even one disease as a punishment doesn't hold water. There are too many inconsistencies with the notion. One would expect a god to be more efficient for one. Also, one would expect a god to make it known how, what and why the punishment is administered.... What good is the punishment if it isn't obvious to those being punished or to those who might learn from it? Hmm... say i go with a hooker, and get hiv, that would obviosly teach me not to do that anymore (and if you check your bible it doesnt allow sex before marriage nor adultery) Once HIV is defeated, there will be a new one... But doesnt that tell you that we (people) arent going to get away with our sins. Sure, all plagues pass in time, and others come, and they will leave, ether through human prevention, or some other means. But others will come, and maybe God has something to do with it. A couple hundred years ago people could die from a sore throught infection, now its gone in a week. The viruses come back even stronger each time. uhh... seems ive run out of time... (end of school) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hmm... say i go with a hooker, and get hiv, that would obviosly teach me not to do that anymore (and if you check your bible it doesnt allow sex before marriage nor adultery) Luke, If you don't know what profession you wish to pursue after you finish your schooling, I would suggest being a comedian! ...cos that above statement is HILARIOUS! OK - it's ignorant, grotesque etc. etc. - but it's also damn funny if viewed as black comedy! ...that's the bit they didn't mention in the gospels I guess: 'And the pharasiees saw Jesus sitting and talking with the sinners, the prostitutes and the adulterers. And they said 'Why do you associate with such people Lord? They are sinners!' And Jesus said - 'He who is without sin cast the first stone. I came to adminster to the sick, not to the healthy'. ..and then as Jesus walked away past the pharasiees, he winked, and whispered to them 'It's OK. The last laugh is on them - I just infected them with a nice bit of HIV! That'll teach 'em!' ...and the pharasiees did rejoice...' Those of you who may think I'm making light of serious issues, I'm afraid I'm not the one making light of them... ...this is what some Christians actually believe! Incredible isn't it! The God who came down and treated sinners with respect and humility could apparently be the same god who will then turn around and inflict them with a deadly, terrible virus to : ..teach them a lesson I can't think of many concepts which are more perposterous or outrageous... ...or maybe this is god's idea of a 'good cop, bad cop' routine?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegietto Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 i'm not saying that is how it is done why else would he give them diseases i mean that is no way to die that is a terrible way to die so that is why i think that but i don't know how he does it if i did don't u think i would have said so by now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 lol @ CTBD's first comment. At your 2nd one, its not like they they just get it (although some get it first time around) but still, God deals with people in different ways. Wouldnt you learn something? Anyways... time to read what the rest of the people said (i didnt have time earlier. Moreover, you cannot truly prove a religion. If you could, it wouldn't require faith. But you can show that there are parts of it that are logical and probable. That has been done repeatedly throughout this thread, though you refuse to acknowledge it. Ummm... thats awesome the faith part... something ive never thought about ever! Thanks. BTW, somewhere... CTBD did say that some of the bible was true... or something like that. Maybe not fully open minded, but at least partially. Ill tell you though, i am closed minded as to someone prooving the bible wrong, lol, lots of people say they can do it, but never have. Or they try, but it doesnt work out. Quick Question: Why does God punish the wicked? Why does a parent punish the child? Think about it. He is being benevolent in punishing us. Why does he punish us? Because he loves us. Read your bibles again. People seem to remember the plagus and wars more than they remember when he saved the people from those things. The God who came down and treated sinners with respect and humility could apparently be the same god who will then turn around and inflict them with a deadly, terrible virus to : quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..teach them a lesson Why does he do that, because he loves them. He wants them to see his love. There is also another side to punishment... he could bless them. But sexual sin... is one of the worse in any book. Notice how many people who are just constantly say dirty jokes, or are involved in lots of sexual sin become insane, or just simply get a life threatening disease. Thats often near the end of there life, and have had a lot of time to turn to God. Its not like you dont know your doing wrong! -lukeskywalker1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegietto Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 i agree the sexual one is worst punishment but i still they the disease our punishment for the ones who have done very bad sins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDB_modeski Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I've just spent the last 20 mins reading so this thread and *omg* so many people miss the point. A better writer than me, SFGate columnist Mark Morford hits the nail on he head when he says: "the dangerous absurdity of a people taking these tales -- and gods -- way, way too literally. Of separating the stories and gods from their own lives and insisting on seeing the culture's deities as something other than the mere reflection, the personification, of their own internal lives and spiritual journeys and the need to get off their collective ass and quit being so hollow and mean and piously self-righteous and eager for war. There is no superior bearded father-figure God. There is no Heaven as physical place. There is no literal reading of holy adventures and Heaven/Hell battles and fluttery cute cherub angels with wings. It is all story, all literary torque, all metaphor and analogy and personification of emotion and spirit, a way for the human animal to elevate toward greater and greater levels of compassion and love and mutual understanding and enough with the pipe bombs and the indignation and the hatred already. The virgin birth did not actually happen. It is simply a metaphor for the birth of pure compassion and spiritual feeling in the heart of man. Christ's body did not fly out of a cave and rise to the pretty blue sky. It is a symbol for man moving inward, opening to his spiritual self. Deities and demons do not exist "out there" in some other space where we will eventually travel and hang out and romp giddily and watch porn and eat all the pie and candy we want. They're internal, as facets and aspects of our own spiritual beings. This is what Campbell teaches. So simple. So beautiful. So radically misunderstood. From the Bible to the Upanishads, the Koran to the teachings of the Buddha, Greek myth to American Indian folklore, the similarities between beliefs, their borrowed deities, their shared iconography, their reinvented tales and common themes, are all revealed to be so astonishingly interconnected, so obviously cut from the same internal psychological cloth, and so beautifully a part of all cultures, that to wage war in the name of one is to wage war on them all. And to think of any one as superior to the others is to do violence to the very ideas and energies they illumine, and only serves to isolate, and enrage, and induce severe diarrhetic paranoia." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I think I shall have to add Mark Morford to my reading list... San Fransisco Gate was it? That is exactly the sentiment I have about religion in general. Spirituality shouldn't be limited to those that are theistic... Richard Feynman, a devout atheist, was a very spiritual person. By "Campbell," I'm assuming he's referring to Joseph Campbell? I've followed a good bit of his work in examining the beliefs, mythology, and religions of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegietto Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 i don't know nothing about them i have never hear of them to be honest who our they i mean if i have i don't remember, could someone tell me about them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDB_modeski Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 SkinWalker - yes it was the San Franciso Gate http://www.sfgate.com and Morford is required reading IMHO! I quoted from this column of his http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/11/15/notes111502.DTL in my earlier post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Why does he do that, because he loves them. He wants them to see his love. There is also another side to punishment... he could bless them. But sexual sin... is one of the worse in any book. Notice how many people who are just constantly say dirty jokes, or are involved in lots of sexual sin become insane, or just simply get a life threatening disease. Thats often near the end of there life, and have had a lot of time to turn to God. Haha. Luke, your career as a comedian is getting more and more promising with each post! That was even more entertaining than your last discourse! ...people who tell dirty jokes become insane?! ...people who are involved in a lot of sexual 'sin' - haha - become insane?! By that reasoning, the Rolling Stones would ALL have to be in straight jackets by now!! LMAO God loves sinners and wants them to see his love by... ...inflicting upon them - not just a killer virus, but one which causes a prolonged, agonising death?! LMFAO - please Luke, stop it - I can't breathe I'm laughing so hard!! Luke - your problem is you just don't live in the same reality as the rest of us! Your living in your own little world where these things your saying are true. But please, by all means continue - I need some more laughs...! Ill tell you though, i am closed minded as to someone prooving the bible wrong I rest my case. Compare this statement with another quote from Luke in another thread: concerning the bible... Its not unquestionably true. It cant all be proven, i never said it could be. So it would be stupid of me to say it IS true. All i say is, i believe it is. That the conclusion we would reach, it cant be proven, nor disproven, and its a waste of time trying to do either. Its faith in the end. To paraphrase: 'I will believe whatever I want to believe, regardless of ANY evidence for or against.' ...and THAT is the very definition of irrational thinking. Take a bow Luke - you are a self-confessed irrational thinker. Your free to give your opinion - and as a comedian you have a bright future ahead of you - but for one, I don't tend to take the words of irrational people seriously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I didnt say it always happend... but anyways.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloseTheBlastDo Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 That's right Luke. One post, you clearly imply a strong link between sexual 'sin' and (haha - still makes me chuckle) insanity, and then you try and downplay it in your very next post after you have it made clear to you what a ridiculous notion it is. Of course, I'd have more repsect for you if you just fully retracted such a ludicrous theory in the first place. But that kind of action is only applicable to rational debators - so I don't expect you to... ...well, looks like the rational christians have dried up in this thread, so I think I'll move on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Jack Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Why does he do that, because he loves them. He wants them to see his love. There is also another side to punishment... he could bless them. But sexual sin... is one of the worse in any book. Next time something really crappy happens in my life. I will just turn to the sky and say "Thank you for that sign of love god. I really didn't know you cared till I got cancer." Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Notice how many people who are just constantly say dirty jokes, or are involved in lots of sexual sin become insane, or just simply get a life threatening disease. Thats often near the end of there life, and have had a lot of time to turn to God. Well you know my mother was never constantly telling dirty jokes or involved in sexual sins. She got a life threatening disease and died half way through life. Dam god sure does pick em. Maybe he should let Santa Clause start picking out who has been naughty or nice, because he seems to have a problem with it. Obviously you're going to justify that by saying god has a plan or whatever bull sh!t. I say that, because that's just what it is. As for people becoming "Mentally Insane" I suggest you go work in a mental hospital. Why? Because all kinds of people fall off their rocker. We have Dr.s, Lawyers, House wives and even Preachers. We also have drug addicts and the like. You know what I have noticed a lot of these people were screwed up from the start. god was screwing their life up from the get go they didn't have a chance. Either through genetics or mental abuse. Most people aren't going to turn out right no matter how hard they try even if they care. Why don't you go tell some kid that has been sexually abused all his or her life and has herpes from their moms BF. That god loves them and did all that to show them that he cares and see what kind of response you get. I'll make sure you have a private room with them so they can beat your butt. Personally to me christian fanatics with their talk are just as bad as muslims flying a 747 into a building. Both are trying to accomplish the same goal except christans gave up on murdering along time ago. They still think scaring and confusing people that don't think the way they do is going to turn them so they get their way. Sorry bub I'm not turning better go back to burning people at the stake. I'm sorry to all the other people in the forum, but I have been reading the crap for several days and frankly just can't take it anymore. I don't post here that much anymore not because I think any of it's right but because it's the same people debating about the same stuff just a different thread title. Being a christian is like being a alcoholic. It's a dependency. Except instead of a chemical dependency it's a emotional dependency. Ever here someone say that "they couldn't wake up in the morning if they didn't know god was there." Or "I just couldn't imagine going through life without god by my side." it's fascination bordering on delusion. Alcoholics have the same problems they can't wake up in the morning without a drink and they can't go through the day without one. So when you're debating with a christian think of debating with a alcoholic not to drink............ People that generally have no real direction in life or idea what's going on usually fall prey to this crap. If not at birth. They loose hope or stability somewhere and fall right in, because it all sounds so good. The only purpose in life we have is the one we make for ourselves. If you can't do it better cling on to something, because it's going to be a ruff ride. "We all know we can't have purpose without god right." We don't need a false god to give us purpose. So simple, but true. Allot of good things have happened in my life and allot of bad things, but you know I have never been a christian and never will. I might fall on my butt tomorrow god didn't do it to me I did it to myself. I'm responsible for the things I accomplish and the things I don't. People need to give them selves more credit for there own accomplishments and failings. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Its not like you dont know your doing wrong! It's not like the christians buring people didn't know they were doing wrong or when they were comenting genocide on the Native Amerians? It's not like when I walk down a street and some Freek preaching the bible looks at me and tells me "You're going to hell if I don't do god's work." He dosn't know he is doing wrong does he? Just like I wonte know I'm doing wrong when I punch him in the face. god doesn't send me to jail for it I send myself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainer511 Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 Well Cosmos Jack, I too have been reading this topic for the past couple of days, and frankly, I can't take much more of it. I have a question. If there is no God, then why is there good in the world? Before you scoff at my question, think about it. If we are inherently good then why is there evil? If we are inherently evil then why is there good? You could say that you don't believe the human being is inherently good or evil, but then you have another problem. If what we do and what we think are a set of highly evolved instincts then why is there any sense of morality? Also is it wise to automatically assume the existence of a loving God is an impossibility based on the suffering in the world? You're judging the infinite with a finite mind. Here is an analogy I read. A hunter catches a bear in a bear trap. He feels compassion for the bear, and attempts to let him free. The man approaches, and the bear becomes hostile and won't let him get close enough to help. Why? The bear thinks the man is attacking him. The man then shoots the bear full of drugs so that he can help him, and the bear again, being shot, thinks he is still under attack. You would not expect a bear to understand the logic of the man, neither should you expect man to understand the logic of God. To say that there cannot be a loving God because of suffering is a close-minded statement. However, to say you don't understand what purpose the suffering has is a very legitimate statement. You can't say that someone's having a disease is a punishment for their own sin, that sounds like Karma to me. I'm not saying that God has never punished anyone directly by seemingly natural means, but that cannot account for absolutely all diseases and suffering. God created the world, and it was good. There was no suffering, and there was no sin. God created man, and gave him a choice in whether or not he would follow Him. God wants man to love Him. The only way for there to be love is if there is a choice to hate, there cannot be love without choice. In this God created the possibility for sin. Satan wants to destroy God, but he can’t. Instead he takes to destroying humans by tempting man into sin. Where does suffering come from? Sexual immorality, humans torturing other humans, hurtful things that people say-these are things that cause a form of suffering. These things are also considered sinful. Before you go accusing me of contradicting myself, please realize I’m trying to say that suffering is a product of sin, but not necessarily a punishment for sin. I’m not saying that torturing someone will cause you to have suffering, but that torturing someone causes suffering. I think people here are looking at it the wrong way. Here is an example, sexual immorality. He knows that in the world he created if you go having sex with every person you meet there is a good chance you’re going to be suffering, so he tells us not to. If you told a child not to touch the stove and they did it and got burnt, are their burnt fingers a punishment for not listening to their parents? I wouldn’t think so. I will openly admit to having a dependancy on Christ. However this is different from an alcoholics dependancy. If you had a good friend who helped you through troubled times, who was always there for you when you needed it, in a sense you depend upon that person. This is the dependancy that I have with Christ. And in another sense I depend upon Him in the arena of eternity. Once we sinned, God had a problem. The nature of an 'all powerful' being is that he cannot contradict himself. God cannot be in the presence of Sin. The payment for sin is death, not only mere physical death but also spiritual death. So what is God to do? He is a loving God, but at the same time He is a righteous God. His very nature destroys the sinful, but the people He loves are sinful. The answer? He sends His Son down in bodily form, and He goes around, spreading God’s Word. Satan sees this, and what a chance! God has put His only Son in Satan’s domain-now Jesus has to play by his rules! Satan uses Pilot, Herod, and other political leaders to try and kill Him. With Herod he fails, but he ultimately triumphs-and oh what a triumph it was. Not only did he kill Him, but he did so in glorious fashion. Humiliation, suffering, a cry to his father, the works! Wait a minute, he’s taking on the sins of the world, and in doing this anyone who asks can have forgiveness through him. Satan can no longer take souls with him to hell so easily, but who cares? Satan just killed the embodiment of God, who in their right mind would believe in a God who died at the hands of mortals, even if he was in bodily form. But to Satan’s dismay Jesus visited hell for merely three days before breaking out resurrected affirming his deity. The righteousness of God was fulfilled with his sacrifice, and now the loving God is free to accept all who ask for forgiveness. Also remember, before you comment, my logic should only be consider that of an alcoholic. I am unwise and irrational, for my faith blinds me from the truth. Be sure to use small words, for you wouldn’t want to confuse an idiotic Christian bigot like myself. And if you cannot see this as utter sarcasm then you have no right to be posting here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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