Time to ditch the saber system.

[Flashblade]

@ razorace

 

Quoted from this thread:

 

When a Jedi fights with his lightsaber empowered by the force (as they always do) he/she can do so for quite a time if he/she has an equal enemy. Things sure change when he/she fights somebody who is more powerful. However lets keep the equal opponents. In my system equal enemys would equally fatigue. It won't be so that only attack moves will fatigue the enemy. the one who makes the attack swing uses his power so he will fatigue as the one who defends against it. Also there won't be a penalty when you are high on stamina until lets say your bar reaches 50 percent. Than your force control will slowly begin to drop to a point where you are really out of stamina and you would be left with lets say 50% of your original max force control. When reaching 40% stamina the moves of your char would become slower slowly to the point where you are really out of it and you can hardly fight back any more. Of course you are able to regain your stamina all you have to do to do this is to disengage for some time and the bar will fill up again. Yes the game would become about controlling your stamina and your force control, but I don't see what is wrong about that since that is what you would have to do in reality as well. If you fight headless wasting your energy you will certainly loose that is crystal clear. And remember what I said you would have allready fought some time til your stamina begins to affect your abbilities although since stamina would be something adjustable in my system that depends on how you configured it.

 

That would be my definition. Did I understand you right that there would be no seperate force control any more that everything is about your stamina or fatigue meter? Sounds interesting!

[Prime]

Originally posted by Flashblade

You answered that yourself. You can avoid those moves but you can't counter them see the difference?

I don't see the problem here. Certainly it is realistic that one fighter moves to dodge an attack and at the same time getting into position to counterstrike. This happens with just about every form of melee fighting.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

I admit that only the duel mode is of interest to me so point taken. Especially CTF is a gamemode that in my opinion doesn't fit into Star Wars at all. Such a gametype belongs to games like UT or Quake but it doesn't fit the Star Wars theme! Who can truelly say how good such a system would work in the other gamemodes? Since the system doesn't exist can one tell?

This comes back to my original point. If Raven went solely by what is seen in the movies, the only gametypes we would see is Duel/Power Duel and guns TFFA. They would have to get rid of FFA (we never see a every-man-for-himself fight) or CTF (obvious reasons). That may be more realistic, but only having two gametypes is not as much fun. Once again, some realism has to be sacrificed to make the game more fun. You can decide for yourself whether you want to play these other modes, but don't expect other players who do like these modes to follow suite.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

I can tell you why I would want to have to deal with such a handicap. Because it gives depth to the whole experience, it makes things more real and since you've read my review if I remember this right you know that I am all for a deep gameplay experience!

That may be the way you feel about it, but many players will be unhappy about having to deal with constant handicaps. This was exactly the reason Raven left these things out. Many (most?) players aren't looking for exact realism.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

I disagree we are now at the point where debating gets us nowhere I fear. I don't think the game will be over when one of the Jedi reaches 50%. There is still a wildcard which we haven't discussed much at all the Force. With everything you can pull of with the Force you won't be able to tell what the outcome of such a battle would be. I could even think of a new force power something like a fast meditation that allows you to regain some stamina.

But the Force isn't a wildcard, because as you mentioned in your previous post, as a player gets more fatigued, their control of the force is lessened. This is going to mean that they have less force ability than their opponant. Since every force power has a counter, the player with less force ability is still going to be less effective. As for Force meditation, It will still require a drain to your Force pool, and already because of low stamina this pool is very low. Since both players could have this power, the less fatigued player with more force power is going to be able to use mediation more often, once again giving him more ability than the other player. You are right back to the same problem. The fight is already over.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

Don't forget what I described here is a basic concept which would need to be worked over and tweaked but I m sure that this basic approach can be made working!

And this is what I have been trying to get you to see all along. Tweaking and gameplay balancing needs to be done to make the game balanced and fun. You can't do this soley by trying to copy what is seen in the movies. You have to take gameplay issues into consideration as well. And these considerations usually mean that some things are going to have to be different than the movies.

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

The JA players doesn't need the force. This could be simulated by the game automatically.

But the ability to control the force is one of the big things that make the JK series different from other FPSs. Players aren't going to be happy if you take this away from them. Besides, this wouldn't be very realistic

 

Originally posted by Flashblade

Why should I want to do this?? I hate this system since it has nothing to do with what I want to experience!

If you hate the system and has nothing to do with what you want, why are you playing this game?

[razorace]

Originally posted by Flashblade

That would be my definition. Did I understand you right that there would be no seperate force control any more that everything is about your stamina or fatigue meter? Sounds interesting!

 

Yep, Force Powers are powered directly from your Fatigue.

[NeoTyranus]

If you hate the system and has nothing to do with what you want, why are you playing this game?

 

 

 

^

|

|

|

|

 

Prime hit it on the ball with the last sentence there...

 

when I buy such a game I want to experience something true to the movies and not so far off!

 

"Something true to the movies" doesn't exactly do wonders for game balance when playing against other humans in MP. Things need to be changed; game needs need to be implemented in order for the gameplay to be balanced, and function properly.

 

Sorry flash, Im not buying your vision either, I dont want to be held down and restrained by some "fatigue meter" that only recharges when im not fighting (how does this help battles become more intense if you ultimately reward the person for not fightning??) and ultimately decides the performance of my character and how fast I can go etc. etc. However, I would like to see force powers linked to something like this, but not the overall performance of your character...Id have to see it I guess : \

 

 

I would like to see some kind of active blocking implemented inside a mod somehow. Sounds really promising and Id like to see how it works out.

 

Good luck to you on that note.

[DadMad]

Hm I like the idea of Flashblades fighting system... some points like a better/realistic block/counter ability is very interesting

 

But let me give this discusion an other point...

 

As far as I see, there is only on fighting system... for the whole game, and all game mods... but I think this system only works good in duels...

 

the fakt that raven simulates good, long and interesting saber fights with this "permanent running around your enemy trying to hit him until he is dead" thing is a good idea... but what is with the other gamemods?

 

JK is the only game I know that misunderstands the meaning of FFA (or CTF as well)

 

Whats the meaning of FFA in all other shooters around the world? right... making a lot of frags in a short time. but using a saber will not bring that effekt... because with this saber system you are not able to make a fast kill... nor u are able to kill a weapon player (dont say you can... because if you do u are showing me that u just played against noobs... give a skilled player a good gun, and he will defeat any other saber player). why do u think there are only "saber only" servers out there? because it makes no fun to play with the saber when there are guns, and why doesnt it makes fun? because u cant kill with it...

 

so why dont make 2 systems? why dont make a ffa system to? in 1.03 in some way there was a system like that, bringing fun to ffa... the only boring thing was u just have one killing move... the backstab.

 

someone bevor said u can change the saber damage and stuff with the cvar... but then they are only working for my own server...

but we need a general system that works for all.

 

 

I hope everyone understands what I was trying to say, because my english writing ability sucks

 

 

oh and one thing besides... JK is more like an 3rd person shooter then an 1st ps... yes the saber is just one weapon and all the others where used in 1st p. but witch weapon did u use the most? and what kind of view does it has? or u are just walking around... come on u cant say me u are walking around in first person...

[boinga1]

Well, you don't SHOOT a lightsaber, right? Besides, FPS is just a generic class that refers to many types of games.

 

JA isn't an RPG, or a flight sim, or Action (in Action you run around in 3rd person and don't have to aim), so it must be a FPS. It's the only category left.

 

There's no point in creating a whole new game class (TPS [third person saber]) for ONE game, is there?

[Sabre9]

Originally posted by boinga1

There's no point in creating a whole new game class (TPS [third person saber]) for ONE game, is there?

 

Well, you gotta start somewhere...

[razorace]

Personally, I'd lump JK2 and JKA in the sword combat games group.

 

Anyway, back on topic, in the ideal system how would we balance the single/dual/double sabers?

 

Based just on my experiences with SP, I think there needs to be some way to counter the twirl attacks of both the dual and double sabers.

[Master Palidus]

Though its currently a bit wacky in JA mp, there IS a manual system of blocking/countering... Tapping attack when you see the sabers flash causes you to perform a counterstroke. *Believe me, it's quite effective.*

 

In JK2, you could even do an exercise to practice these counters. Stand completely still, with your saber up in heavy stance. Have a partner do heavy right swings, aimed at the middle-top area of your saber. When you see the sparks, tap attack. (This requires fairly precise timing, which may take a while to develop.) You'll find that you took no damage from your partners swing, and if your counter connects, they'll be feeling it.

 

The main flaw with this system is that any clash of the sabers can produce a counter... Meaning if one were to tap the button continuously, they could counter counterattacks. (This sometimes results in a horrifically messy random-twitch situation.)

 

In JK3, its near impossible to practice, as standing saber defense is either broken completely or just a little messed up. These counters do still work when 2 swings connect, however.

 

Regarding all the complaints about heavy stance: Get over it... You claim you want the game to be less hack and slash, yet you want to exclude the one stance that can be effectively played without holding down the button and mindlessly charging. Slower is more powerful because it brings balance to the game. Also, the comment on cutting deeper makes perfect sense! (The deeper the cut, the worse the wound.)

 

Light stance swings move less than a foot from the body of the user... Not exactly deep cutting, especially if you're not standing right next to them. Medium has slightly more range, cuts a little deeper, and therefore has more comparable damage to the full-swings in heavy. The speeds are there not only for balance, but because of the different ranges of the swings. (Naturally, it would take longer to execute a full sweep with the saber, rather than a small "flick".)

 

The dream of movie-like battles is good in theory, but does not translate to the genre of the game. I'm all for the circling opponents, dodging and making sweeps. It's action, it gets intense. Tapping buttons while standing within saber distance of the opponent until a small lag spike throws off your timing (Thus losing you the tapping-match you've been at for five minutes.) ... Just doesn't seem all that appealing to me.

 

As for dual and staff... I think the specials should be altered to something slightly less insane. Really, the damage right now is rediculous, and results in special wars. I believe more attention should be put on the basic swings. (The things that make it a game of skill, rather than a dance competition.) This may take rebuilding parts of the staff and dual stances, but hey... JK2 1.04 was far altered from the version on the cd. (Check the basic swings in each stance.)

 

Patch or 3, and it'll be a great game.

[Kurgan]

JA (like JK2) is just a FPS with some third person weapons added.

 

That's not too hard to see is it?

 

Like it or not, the vast majority of weapons in the game are intended to be used primarily in first person mode.

 

JK2 even let you play the entire game in first person mode.

 

And just because two out of the six included game modes in JA are saber focused doesn't mean that the game itself is that way.

 

In fact, you can join a Duel server (if the options allow) and play with fists (third person) and a blaster pistol (first or third person) if you choose to.

 

I think people assume that because they like to use the saber only and because they associate sabers with Jedi Knights (and the title is Jedi Knight) that it must be a game only about sabers. It's not...

 

The fact that "Sabers Only" is still an OPTION (that's not on by default) should clue you in that there's more to the game than just the lightsaber.

[Syzerian]

ok time for my oppinion:p

firstly with the stances well with the red stance i tend to think of it as taking longer to swing because they r charging up their attack strength with the force (enough to smack anyone off their feet right?) i also think that stances should be changed not doing any extra damage or anything like that just different stances for different situations like the blue stance with heeps of twirly attacks for when u r fighting multiple enemies and yellow just normal swings and slashes when fighting single enemies

 

also i heard someone talking about the blurry push and pull annimations but when u think about it they r pushing everything in the radius even those little tiny atoms and air molecules

 

i kind of enjoyed JO for that more cartoony look the only thing bad i found about it was that the reborn were much too easy u could just till they do a swing then just run to the side of them and slice em

i like JA more tho cuz the jedi fights r so much better but one thing i feel is still needed is npcs that use force speed also the kata moves when the big streaks apear to be broken at certain places and JA needs better dismemberment not just the rare chop off his hand im talking like in the phantom menace movie how at the end maul is choped in half it adds a great effect to games

one other thing i found with JA is the sabers look too solid but fighting jedi with double sabers and the abbility to use almost any force power is a great plus:)

[Flashblade]

Originally posted by Syzerian

ok time for my oppinion:p

firstly with the stances well with the red stance i tend to think of it as taking longer to swing because they r charging up their attack strength with the force (enough to smack anyone off their feet right?)

 

Logic beats opinion, do me a favor will ya? Take a hammer and a nail. Place that nail on a hard wall. Now wind up wide as in red stance and swing as slow as in red stance! I wonder whether this nail will end up being in the wall any time soon!

 

For christ sake plz stop trying to defend heavy stance it's absurd.

 

Originally posted by NofrikinfuN

Also, the comment on cutting deeper makes perfect sense! (The deeper the cut, the worse the wound.)

 

No it does not!

[C'jais]

Originally posted by NofrikinfuN

Regarding all the complaints about heavy stance: Get over it... You claim you want the game to be less hack and slash, yet you want to exclude the one stance that can be effectively played without holding down the button and mindlessly charging.

 

For you perhaps, but yellow stance can be controlled equally well with practice. Granted, as blue incorporates so many spins it makes it hard to control properly (just like dual and double sabers), but yellow stance is a dream to master. Only problem is that the damage is so puny, and because the block-breaking power is so weak, many people equate single saber with red stance alone, occasionally using blue for the sporadic lunge.

 

The hit detection has taken a turn for the worse since JK2 - I've walked backwards on countless occasions while holding my saber still, and yet a yellow stance hit with just enough range to hit my saber has killed me outright. Not to mention all the times I've cut right through an enemy and not dealt any damage (ping was outrageously low), and the times the double and dual saber has ripped me apart with one hit alone. So much for balance.

 

The fact remains that as red stance is so superior to yellow and blue, most people are forced to use it if they want to win, and games turn into jousting matches where you see two jedi knights running at each with sideways sweeps, dodge the opponent as he does the same, and jump back. This results in matches where you can play for several minutes with no one getting hit at all, and both players cutting deep, red cuts in all the air molecules. Gee, what excitement.

 

On the other hand, if blue and yellow got a boost in damage, everyone would suddenly have 3 stances at their disposal, and you'd see hectic action with stance changing all the time, reserving red stance for occasions where you're sure to hit him and deliver a crushing blow.

 

(Naturally, it would take longer to execute a full sweep with the saber, rather than a small "flick".)

 

Maybe, but the way it is now, red stance feels like hitting people with 6 feet lead pipes. Not exactly my idea of "sword play". If you tried swinging a real sword in a real fencing match the way you swing a red stance saber, you'd end up dead before you had a chance to finish the strike.

 

The dream of movie-like battles is good in theory, but does not translate to the genre of the game. I'm all for the circling opponents, dodging and making sweeps.

 

So am I. This movie realism just cannot be accurately transfered to games with gunplay as well, IMHO. However, take red stance out of the game completely and you'd see something that's just as engaging, scenic, and diverse. Red stance just does not offer this.

 

Razorace, I loved your mod in JK2, but unfortunately, finding servers for it was nigh impossible - I hope you improve it this time. I especially liked how gunplay was just as cool as saberfights (can't remember how you did this)