What we really need from Raven

[Emon]

Originally posted by razorace

Well, you're right. Developers do need to be "in touch" with their customers.

That is all I am saying.

 

Originally posted by Imperial_thug

It's impossible for Raven to be "in touch", there's too many conflicting opinions about how the game "should be". It's impossible for them to make everyone happy. I think the best thing they could do is just make a game and NOT listen to the fans. They could just make it how they want it to be and then we all could learn to live with it, I think that would help things tremendously.

It would be nice if you read what I wrote, and not some random data pulled from the back of your brain.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I think Raven has learned their lesson with the JK2 patches. They know the difference between bug fixes and gameplay changes that will anger more people than they satisfy.

I hope so.

 

FK, from what I got from your post, it sounded like you thought Raven isn't fixing the bugs because of legal issues? If so, there's no way that's possible. They can't take suggestions from people like on story and stuff, because of intellectual property issues, but I don't think a suggestion to fix a bug or change the damage of an explosion really counts. Razorace submitted a fix to one of Raven's programmers for an SP walking animation error, and I believe he said they were going to fix it, or try at least (I can't remember the words of the e-mail reply). So I'm definately thinking that is not the case...

 

The grip and rocket bugs you talked about are still there, because I don't think they knew. There's very clearly some stuff in JA designed to solve some of the issues JO had, so there's no reason they wouldn't remove the rocket bug. I think Raven listens for a little while, then eventually it pretty much stops, either that or no one remembers anything they read. Either way, it's got to change.

[Kurgan]

I assume Emon you mean the rocket bug in JK2 is still there.

 

In JA I can't get it to work the same way, so it looks like its no longer there...

 

Not sure what you mean about the "grip bug."

 

The "random 100% damage lightning" bug that unnamed mentioned I have never seen. I've seen people with no shields die in a few seconds on level 3 lightning, but that's how its supposed to work. Lag makes it look like its instant sometimes, but it's not.

 

The fact is that most of the time I use lightning on people and even without absorb they survive. A "random kill bug" thing is very hard to prove, especially with lag as it is on the internet.

 

Anyway, I got the impression that Raven wished to continue patching JK2 to fix the last few bugs, but LA didn't let them. The same may happen with JA, since LA has the marketing arm in control of the SW liscense for games gets to dictate policy to Raven, the third party developer working with the liscensed material. Heck, Raven doesn't even control the engine they are using to make the game. I think they're really trying, they just have a limited scope of influence when it comes to the big picture. So hopefully the powers that be will let them make the decisions they want to make about the game.

[Emon]

I guess. I remember hearing about bugs for JO that never existed, often because people just suck and look to bugs to make them think they are actually good. But hey, I haven't played MP much, so I don't really know.

 

What do you mean about not controlling the engine they used to make the game?

[Rad Blackrose]

"random 100% damage lightning"

 

The bug does exist. I was able to reproduce it many a time on the FU clan server. They had to disable lightning because of me.

 

Nice job on side stepping the instant death saber staff kick statement as well.

 

Most of the bugs people never hear about is mostly due to the fact that most of the JO players stuck to their own little world, rejecting other servers due to the fear that their own playstyle would get mauled by a better player. This holds especially true in the NF to FF SO crossover aspect. You don't see effective moves such as PTK or GK used in NF (duh). Nor do you see bugs such as the 100+ damage Grip or the rocket bug. Why? Because most servers rejected force and rejected guns outright all in the sense of "honor."

 

That's why Gun CTF and FF/SO were, and still are the only ones that have a legitimate gripe in the Force and Guns field, because they took apart JKII and saw how it ticked. That's how we got things such as Grip Kick, instant Grip deaths, and the Drain game in the first place. All of a sudden, people who have been stuck to one gametype or one style of play (ie the NF Duel/FFA community), are commenting on other modes when they have NO IDEA how it works.

 

I'm all for bugs first, then gameplay later, but unfortunately there is that grey area which contains both concepts of gameplay and bugs. This is where the lightning and kick bugs come in. Same with the instant Grip and the rocket homing bug.

 

EDIT: Another thing I want to touch briefly on is the Jedi Academy MP netcode. It is just downright attrocious. On servers that should be able to run a 16 man JO FFA, it can barely handle a 12 man JA Siege. I'd flag this as a showstopper.

[razorace]

I think that's partially due to people considering anything that prevents them from winning to be a bug or a flaw in the gameplay.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure that a LOT of the perceived problems are flat out due to crappy pings. Unfortunately, a melee combat game like JKA requires a very good ping to get the sort of server<->client accuracy that you need. In addition, due to the Raven did some stuff (animations) your sabers animations are ALWAYS going to be off based on your ping. Now, it's possible that Raven fixed this from JK2 but I'd need the source code to know for sure.

 

Admittedly, there are some bugs/issues that people have been finding legitly. But that's what patches are for.

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by razorace

In addition, due to the Raven did some stuff (animations) your sabers animations are ALWAYS going to be off based on your ping. Now, it's possible that Raven fixed this from JK2 but I'd need the source code to know for sure.

 

*puke*

 

First of all, the saber animations remained untouched minus the addition of the katas, the roll stab, and the pull stab (I've yet to see the pull stab, so I'm guessing it's not in MP, thus eliminating it).

 

I'd have to say it maybe has to do with more of the new acrobatics (including the cartwheel... Yes, I consider it an acrobatic and not a saber move because your saber does nothing during the move). However, that hypothesis alone won't cut it because of the crappy pings and the inability to adjust them client side.

[lotr-sam0711]

That would be nice, But they are too busy makeing games.......maybe, maybe not???

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

EDIT: Another thing I want to touch briefly on is the Jedi Academy MP netcode. It is just downright attrocious. On servers that should be able to run a 16 man JO FFA, it can barely handle a 12 man JA Siege. I'd flag this as a showstopper.

 

Lol, this is hilarious! Atrocious net code is when it takes 5 minutes after you pressed the fire button for a shot to be fired. (This happened in the Will Rock demo...very very slow) Siege has many more things to handle than a simple FFA game...it's got the ICARUS II scripting, the vehicles, the objectives, the keeping track of all the other stuff in the game (times and stuff). Most of all it's probably the scripting... (you notice that in games like BF1942, there aren't even doors that you can open and close, let alone buttons that do stuff like move elevators ect.)

 

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

*puke*

 

First of all, the saber animations remained untouched minus the addition of the katas, the roll stab, and the pull stab (I've yet to see the pull stab, so I'm guessing it's not in MP, thus eliminating it).

 

I'd have to say it maybe has to do with more of the new acrobatics (including the cartwheel... Yes, I consider it an acrobatic and not a saber move because your saber does nothing during the move). However, that hypothesis alone won't cut it because of the crappy pings and the inability to adjust them client side.

 

Oh come on...he's talking about the technical animation code stuff, not the moves!

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

Lol, this is hilarious! Atrocious net code is when it takes 5 minutes after you pressed the fire button for a shot to be fired. (This happened in the Will Rock demo...very very slow) Siege has many more things to handle than a simple FFA game...it's got the ICARUS II scripting, the vehicles, the objectives, the keeping track of all the other stuff in the game (times and stuff). Most of all it's probably the scripting... (you notice that in games like BF1942, there aren't even doors that you can open and close, let alone buttons that do stuff like move elevators ect.)

 

Funny, I only cited one example. I also happened to be on an FFA server and the same thing happened (granted the server stated it could hold 24, but anything over 11 and lag spikes started hitting).

 

I'm glad you find it hilarious, you ****ing jackass.

 

EDIT: Oh, I failed to mention one brief detail. I was getting into technicalities, because even the old single saber moves are suffering from hit detection caused partially by lag.

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

Funny, I only cited one example. I also happened to be on an FFA server and the same thing happened (granted the server stated it could hold 24, but anything over 11 and lag spikes started hitting).

 

I'm glad you find it hilarious, you ****ing jackass.

 

EDIT: Oh, I failed to mention one brief detail. I was getting into technicalities, because even the old single saber moves are suffering from hit detection caused partially by lag.

 

Well, it could just be that you were on a server with a bad ping?

 

It could be there are some technical issues with the net code as I saw something about Raven saying they had fixed some net code stuff in the patch they're making... (although I think that was more about the servers not showing up thing...)

 

I, as a 56ker, have actually had better speed in JA games than in JKII...not really great, but there's less "connection interrupted" then there used to be...

[razorace]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

*puke*

 

First of all, the saber animations remained untouched minus the addition of the katas, the roll stab, and the pull stab (I've yet to see the pull stab, so I'm guessing it's not in MP, thus eliminating it).

 

I'd have to say it maybe has to do with more of the new acrobatics (including the cartwheel... Yes, I consider it an acrobatic and not a saber move because your saber does nothing during the move). However, that hypothesis alone won't cut it because of the crappy pings and the inability to adjust them client side.

 

I don't think you understood. I've studied the JK2 animation system. Hell, I even rewrote the whole thing.

 

The JK2 animation system was fundimently flawed because it didn't match up the start times for the animations on the servers vs the clients. Instead, it only gave the order to start an animation. This directly results in the animations being off by your lag. This is probably what accounts for a LOT of the hit detection problems. The rest is probably due to the way there's no system to prevent the sabers from passing thru bodies/other sabers/etc.

[Rad Blackrose]

The JK2 animation system was fundimently flawed because it didn't match up the start times for the animations on the servers vs the clients. Instead, it only gave the order to start an animation. This directly results in the animations being off by your lag. This is probably what accounts for a LOT of the hit detection problems. The rest is probably due to the way there's no system to prevent the sabers from passing thru bodies/other sabers/etc.

 

Why does this sound vaguely like the change valve pulled with Half-Life/TFC early on, where you "shot," but it would register later.

 

I've already have experienced the lag factor with the saber from Jah's server back in JO (150-200 ping vs low 40s-50s does not bode well in an NF match). Unlike guns where you are able to guess where the person is going and shoot there and connect, you swing, but in reality you swung either before or after you really had a chance to make contact. But now it seems much more obvious in JA, partially due to the changes.

 

EDIT: Silly spelling mistakes

[razorace]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

Why does this sound vaguely like the change valve pulled with Half-Life/TFC early on, where you "shot," but it would register later.

 

Well, I imagine this is the opposite technical problem of that. The animations and hit detection are controlled by the server. This means that to make your saber to hit things as they appear on the clients, it must be in sync with the server. Otherwise, your saber will cleave thru stuff without any damage (the current problem).

 

The problem is that Raven didn't make the animations start at the same times. The server starts the animation and then sends the order to the clients to do the same. Since the client doesn't account for lag when it starts the animation, the animation is ALWAYS off by the amount of lag your experencing.

 

For JK2 I rewrote the animation system to prevent the issue. However, I ran into an engine limitation that prevented me from implimenting it. On the plus side, this issue has been resolved in JKA....or at least that's what I've been told.

[Rad Blackrose]

Will you be throwing it into some rendition of MotF (or whatever you are calling the project now) if the current animation system is failing? Because to me right now it looks like it has not changed.

 

Then again, we still need the editing tools...

[FK | unnamed]

Well as far as bugs and competition players go, we usually are the first to find them and want them out of the game more than anyone because by our very nature, we will use any means we can to win.

 

 

The grip bug was simple.

 

 

Kurgan grips unnamed.

 

unnamed just sits there.

 

Kurgan's grip finishes.

 

unnamed shoots up in the air like a rocket and Kurgan dies instantly, even though he had 100/25.

 

WTF?

 

Easy.

 

There was a bug in JO that let a gripped person "build up kick power" by tapping jump fast as hell (think saber lock click-click).

 

The faster they guy tapped, the more damage he is going to do once free.

 

Once the grip broke, as long as he held the forward key down the game engine would read those "click-clicks" as a kick, *but it would not limit the damage, nor would the player do the kick animation.

 

 

The reason you would not do the kick animation was because you were still in the "after effect" of the grip.

 

You know the small delay period where you are grasping your throat and have limited control over your player.

 

 

But the game would falsely read those clicks as unlimited damage kicks and even though I'm still in the "choke" phase of the grip effect, any living object that touches me is going to die instantly.

 

 

Competition players hated that bug because people abused the hell out of it, but by and large, most casual players didn't even know it existed.

 

 

I'm not going to detail the rocket bug, due to it still working.

 

But most ladder/league gunners utterly hate that bug because a lot of the newbie’s would abuse it just like a wall hack (not to mention the homing rockets only costing ½ the normal ammo rate for the guy using the bug).

 

 

 

And yes, the 1 hit kill staff kick bug and the instant kill lightning bug do/did (not sure after server patch came out) exist.

[EmPreSS]

In regards to this game, we're not fans. We're consumers. They should listen to some of the things people say here and hear all sides about certain issues.

 

I personally think they need to address some of the freak occurances like a one hit kill from a yellow swing, ghost saber misses that pass through people, etc. I don't think any of the moves should be altered at all. I just think some of the glitches need to be fixed asap.

[razorace]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

Will you be throwing it into some rendition of MotF (or whatever you are calling the project now) if the current animation system is failing? Because to me right now it looks like it has not changed.

 

If the animation system needs changing (like I imagine it will), I'll be sure to include the animation system in OJP so that people that don't want to play MotF can still use the updated system.

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by razorace

If the animation system needs changing (like I imagine it will), I'll be sure to include the animation system in OJP so that people that don't want to play MotF can still use the updated system.

 

That sounds good. I'll be sure to start looking into it, since I devoted so much attention to ProMod in JKII.

 

Remind me to slap Dest upside his head for making JediMod open source.

[razorace]

That sounds good. I'll be sure to start looking into it, since I devoted so much attention to ProMod in JKII.

 

There's a MotF forums here under "hosted forums" if you're interested.

 

Remind me to slap Dest upside his head for making JediMod open source.

 

Well, I think the problem with JediMod wasn't that Dest made it open source. I think it was because he abandoned the project. That resulted in a TON of people trying to continue the project and succeeding/failing to various degrees.