JediLurker Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Awesome. Can't wait! I'm not much of a modder myself, but if you two need an extra hand at some point with the bot tweaking or whatever, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kataarn Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I agree completely...JA bots suck a$$crusties. Even on the Raven maps. They just bunnyhop everywhere, and in CTF, they hardly even move at all, they just sit there. Even on the duel maps at Jedi Master difficulty they suck. I waded through at least 15 of them before I got killed by Fyarr. Only a select few of them know what they're doing (Desann, Tavion, Fyarr). Even the lightsiders are hilariously annoying....they just run around with mind trick on for the longest time (some bot duels took at LEAST 10 minutes because of this). *sigh* Guess I'll just have to wait for a patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by Deastin I agree completely...JA bots suck a$$crusties. Even on the Raven maps. They just bunnyhop everywhere, and in CTF, they hardly even move at all, they just sit there. Even on the duel maps at Jedi Master difficulty they suck. I waded through at least 15 of them before I got killed by Fyarr. Only a select few of them know what they're doing (Desann, Tavion, Fyarr). Even the lightsiders are hilariously annoying....they just run around with mind trick on for the longest time (some bot duels took at LEAST 10 minutes because of this). *sigh* Guess I'll just have to wait for a patch. Again, they suck because the routing was so poorly and I mean very poorly done. The botroute files (.wnt) and are in the assets0.pk3 if anyone wants to take a look at them. The first glaringly apparent sign that the routing quality was completly gaffed off can be found in the CTF3.wnt file CTF 3 (Yavin Hilltops) has only one loop with a grand total of 134 waypoints....that is ludicrous and the main reason why they can't navigate and get hungup. Small and very basic Dual maps should have double that many. A CTF map the size and design of Yavin Hilltops should have at least 6 different loops and 700 waypoints. One thing is for sure, quality routing alone will make a very big and positive difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by JediLurker Awesome. Can't wait! I'm not much of a modder myself, but if you two need an extra hand at some point with the bot tweaking or whatever, send me a PM and I'd be happy to help out. Actually you can help a lot! We need a good "tester" to play the maps with our new routes to make sure we don't overlook anything. An extra set of eyes and input can only help. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I will PM you with the details. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I'm interested. I'm on a dial up so I often play against bots. Which maps are you updating? How do you update them? I've heard it's just a matter of doing some sort of command in the game, right? Since this is something that would benefit everyone, would you be interested in submitting the map fixes to OJP? We'd be able to establish a standard for JKA base map fixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by razorace I'm interested. I'm on a dial up so I often play against bots. Which maps are you updating? How do you update them? I've heard it's just a matter of doing some sort of command in the game, right? Since this is something that would benefit everyone, would you be interested in submitting the map fixes to OJP? We'd be able to establish a standard for JKA base map fixes. To bot route a map you use console commands yes, but Each map has a corresponding .wnt file which is the actual bot routes for the map. Once we have them routed properly the .wnt files in the assets0.pk3 will have to be replaced with the new ones. We are doing the CTF maps first, then the FFA maps then dual then siege. JKII.net never posted the pack we submitted for JKO and would never answer our emails as to why they did not. So we will submit them for sure to OJP when they are all finished and we are happy with them. We want the people that are interested to have a way to find them and get them easily. Glad to see some interest in this for a change! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kataarn Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Maybe I'll just make my own map then! *glares at the crappy map makes that only make maps for view, not bots* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Okay update: Coruscant Streets CTF is done and the bots navigate the entire level, steal the flags and get them home to score. They are also using the elevators without a hitch. :-) One down, twenty two to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariners2001 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Are we talking about the same SP AI that would stand stock still and take occasional shots at you then run away in a straight line when you pull their gun? Or perhaps were you referring to the saber wielding opponents who spend half the fight tossing their sabers (and losing them), taunting, and jumping off cliffs? True. The SP AI is far from perfect but at least they can keep their feet on the ground and take offense instead of always running away. The bots are no competition when it comes to saber combat. And the thing is SP AI don't need to pick up items, they just are supposed to get in your way. Bots are supposed to simulate MP players, meaning they are supposed to run laps around the map collecting gear and getting frags. Agreed, but the bots should be somewhere between simulating MP players and the competitive SP AI rather than the wooden, straight line bots they have now. Don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan To bot route a map you use console commands yes, but Each map has a corresponding .wnt file which is the actual bot routes for the map. Once we have them routed properly the .wnt files in the assets0.pk3 will have to be replaced with the new ones. We are doing the CTF maps first, then the FFA maps then dual then siege. JKII.net never posted the pack we submitted for JKO and would never answer our emails as to why they did not. So we will submit them for sure to OJP when they are all finished and we are happy with them. We want the people that are interested to have a way to find them and get them easily. Glad to see some interest in this for a change! Could you link us to a tutorial of how to do it ourselves? I've got some time before the SDK comes out. Anyway, the reason why JK2.net never posted was because their whole file posting system fell apart at the beginning of this year and was never fixed. I think they just gave up and started on lucasfiles.com. As for OJP, it's not a file server, it's a development/feature platform for JKA. The purpose of which is to make it so modders with individual projects don't have create duplicate features (and waste time) and to provide standards for map additions, bugfixes, etc. that Raven can't or isn't going to put in the game themselves. Anyway, editting the asset files is a bad idea. It will prevent people from being able to play on vanilla pure servers and risk causing other problems. It's much better to make it a seperate file in the /base folder or in the /gamedata folder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsync Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan Trust me, I understand, and there are several reasons other than connection that some people prefer to play against bots. I for one won't buy or play any FPS game that does not have them. Maybe an improved botroute pack for release is in order for the near future. I just wish there was a forum just for the discussion of improving bots, botroutes and bot support for models and skins so those of us that play against them could put our heads together and make some improvements in those areas. What's really weird is this game is based on the Quake3 engine, which has some of the best bot coding around( second to Unreal Tournament of course), and if I remember correctly even on maps with limited waypoints the bots still performed up to par. Even the Battle 1942 bots could run circle around the JKA bots and that has some of the dumbest bots around. Well we'll just have to see if Lucasarts and Raven pay attention to these forums and add new stuff to the patch. Remember they listened before and added stuff to the Jedi Outcast Expansion pack *whoops* I mean Jedi Academy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Could you link us to a tutorial of how to do it ourselves? I've got some time before the SDK comes out. Anyway, the reason why JK2.net never posted was because their whole file posting system fell apart at the beginning of this year and was never fixed. I think they just gave up and started on lucasfiles.com. As for OJP, it's not a file server, it's a development/feature platform for JKA. The purpose of which is to make it so modders with individual projects don't have create duplicate features (and waste time) and to provide standards for map additions, bugfixes, etc. that Raven can't or isn't going to put in the game themselves. Anyway, editting the asset files is a bad idea. It will prevent people from being able to play on vanilla pure servers and risk causing other problems. It's much better to make it a seperate file in the /base folder or in the /gamedata folder. Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with. We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch." Make sure you hold your breath until that happens.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Vsync What's really weird is this game is based on the Quake3 engine, which has some of the best bot coding around( second to Unreal Tournament of course), and if I remember correctly even on maps with limited waypoints the bots still performed up to par. Even the Battle 1942 bots could run circle around the JKA bots and that has some of the dumbest bots around. Well we'll just have to see if Lucasarts and Raven pay attention to these forums and add new stuff to the patch. Remember they listened before and added stuff to the Jedi Outcast Expansion pack *whoops* I mean Jedi Academy Yes, yes, maybe they will improve the bots in a patch. That's how it will happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with. We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch." Make sure you hold your breath until that happens.... Tell me you're kidding? Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with. We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch." Make sure you hold your breath until that happens.... Please please please post your improved bot routes at http://www.pcgamemods.com. If you are registered there you can post files instantly. I run two Jedi Academy servers that have customized bots. I don't run pure servers so I would be willing to alter my assets0.pk3 files if the CTF routes in particular are better. Or please email me at adminamidala@comcast.net so I can get my hands on your wonderful enhancements. Or please send me the one you finished so I can at least have one good bot CTF map. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan Yeah your right, after thinking about it again, improving the bot routes to share with the community is a total waste of our time since most will never appreciate the vastly improved routing to begin with. We will just use our route files ourselves on our own servers where the people that play there do appreciate them and everyone else can wait on Raven to fix them in a "patch." Make sure you hold your breath until that happens.... Uh, what?! I was never trying to imply that! I know myself and many other people that run servers or can't play online would love better bot routing. I was simply suggesting a standard so people don't get confused by working on/using many different sets of bot routing for the default maps. Is JKA bot routing just like Q3 bot routing? Would a Q3 tutorial apply to JKA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Uh, what?! I was never trying to imply that! I know myself and many other people that run servers or can't play online would love better bot routing. I was simply suggesting a standard so people don't get confused by working on/using many different sets of bot routing for the default maps. Is JKA bot routing just like Q3 bot routing? Would a Q3 tutorial apply to JKA? @ RazorAce and whoever may be interested in routing maps yourself, Wedge wrote an excellent tutorial for bot routing; http://wso.williams.edu/~jshoer/botroute.htm with some time spent doing it and through trial and error, once you understand all the addflagged commands (waypoint flags) for getting bots to navigate an entire map and use elevators without getting stuck or hung up, you can improve them dramatically. @ Amidala and JediLurker....We are routing all the stock maps now we just won't be releasing them en mass. However, we will be more than happy to share them with those that want them. If you two would be so kind as to PM me, I will see that you get them. All the CTF maps are almost finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Darth Kaan @ Amidala and JediLurker....We are routing all the stock maps now we just won't be releasing them en mass. However, we will be more than happy to share them with those that want them. If you two would be so kind as to PM me, I will see that you get them. All the CTF maps are almost finished. Message sent. Considering how horrible the bots are in simple duel and FFAs, I can't imagine how bad CTF is without the improved paths. Must be no easy task. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 We also need to figure out how to give bots orders (if we can't, how to make it so in a mod) like you could in Q3A. Off topic.. anybody know how to bind Voice Chat commands to keys? (Rather than having to use that slow menu) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 Say, how do you guys handle the waypoints for going down elevators? I just picked up the bot path tutorial and elevators seem to be a problem area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 13, 2003 Share Posted October 13, 2003 However, since most players claim they hate fighting bots because they are so easy to beat, there was never any interest in improved bot routes in JO, so he decided not to release his improved .wnt files for JO and now JA because of that. However, If there was enough sincere interest, I am sure he would. As far as giving bots orders.....yes it would be nice and it could probably become reality once the SC for MP is released if someone had enough interest and skill to code it. But due to the majority opinion bots are a waste of time, and the fact that there is no appreciation for vastly improved routing, I doubt that will ever happen. It's really a shame when a mod maker REFUSES to release their work because they assume nobody will appreciate it. (Based on what.. a few negative forum posts?) I mean no offense, but do people have to actively stroke their egos to get them to release a quality piece of work? Just make it, release it, you spent your time on it, it's your work to do with as you please. Remember, every famous person is both loved and hated, not only loved. I guarentee you if they released it right now on JK2files or pcgamemods or lucasfiles, it would get posted and it would get USED. I'd put it on my server for sure. Hell, send it to ME and I'll post it on my site (with full credit of course). Even if it was just 5% better than what's in the game right now I'd do that. And the opinions of the servers that will use them are all that matter. Who cares if Joe Schmoe who never plays with bots won't use it? Besides, the author will never know how much his work will be appreciated until AFTER he releases it. Remember how many whiners we have in our community? If modders only listen to them then the only mods we'd ever get will be slow motion "movie duel" mods with nerfed force powers and nerfed special moves + 1 billion emotes and hilts (and a skin of Darth Maul). To reiterate... release it, this is what the community needs. When the whiners see bots that are actually worth something, they won't be so quick to scoff at them! I'll test whatever you want if that will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I had noticed that with the standard routing done by Raven the bots got stuck in one spot twirling around rapidly, jumped off ledges to their doom, refused to go on elevators or got crushed by them or stuck in them, ran right by health, ammo, and weapons that they needed, and generally lived up to their lame reputation. Even though I had enhanced my bots' reaction time, accuracy, speed and range of rotation, weapon preferences, and Force configuration, the poor bot routing condemned them to lameness. So I read the tutorial listed above: http://wso.williams.edu/~jshoer/botroute.htm and even though I'd never done bot routing before, I made a new bot route for mp/ffa1 Vjun Sentinel. Wow, what a difference! Not only did they not get stuck or jump off ledges, they kept picking up health, weapons, and ammo just like real players. They are still a little shy about elevators, but they are so much better. Combining their improved routing with the performance enhancements makes them fun to watch. I turned about 10 of them loose on each other, a combination of Light Siders, Dark Siders, single, dual, and saber staff, and even one melee bot who uses guns, Force, and fists only, and it was total mayhem. Lots of fast-paced action, and best of all, no whining about "laming", a definite advantage over some humans. If you like to practice against bots, or if you use bots to even out teams in CTF, definitely try your hand at bot routing. I can't wait to get some bot routes done by people who actually know what they are doing (um, I meant unlike me, no offense intended Raven). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I gave routing a shot, but I failed miserably at it. My bots actually got worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManaMana Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Why not spawn a reborn? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I beleive the current problem is three fold: 1. The bot jumping/falling behavior is messed up. Whenever they're ordered to jump or fall to a waypoint, they will attempt to move in the direction of their target while jumping/falling. This means that the bots suicide a LOT. I will try to fix this when the SDK comes out. 2. The elevator behavior for the default maps is terrible. Bots/players have trouble going down them. I will also try to fix this when the SDK comes out. 3. Someone screwed up the botrouting. Some of the maps has funky @$$ botrouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.