Shaggy1984 Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 After playing this gametype quite extensively, I've really come to like it a great deal. It's got awesome potential with the mappers/modders. However a few gameplay/balance issues have come to my attention in the current maps. Some may not see them as issues, however I do. Feel free to comment. Destruction of Key points, IE the computers, walls, control panels. The thing is, basically any weapon can do this (bar the desert wall and specific door panels) and personally I see this as an issue really making the demolitionist, somewhat innefective. The assault class can absolutely tear through most destructible objectives with the st rifle and repeater. Personally I think this could be resolved by leaving this task solely to the demolitionist and his detpacks (perhaps also the jedi with the lightsabre) thus giving the demolitionist new importance. Cloaking device, more of a bug that sometimes the thing just doesnt work at all, turning on then instantaneously turning off again. Explosives on Korriban. Fun map, but more often then not degrades into an explosives match with barely any sorts of sabre combat whatsoever (not necessarily a bad thing, but I often hear frequent complaints about it, considering it is intended to be a sabre only map). My idea for a solution. Why not get rid of the explosives.. completely and give the demolitionist class the unique ability to stab the door/wall as katarn does in the level on the spaceship. This renders the demolitionist defenseless and while rely on their team mates to provide defense for them as they cut down the door. Explosives in blowing up after death. This allows the a demolitionist to go on somewhat a suicide run, why not give the tech or demolitionist the ability to defuse explosive packs when the player who dropped them dies (within a certain timelimit of course). Heavy weapons, why not make it feel like you really have a HEAVY weapon. Direct hits and close explosions I figure should knock enemy's off their feet like singleplayer, why not EWEB: Maybe I'm just useless with it but I rarely get a kill with it, unless an enemy accidently strays into its line of fire. The aiming feels sort of clunky with it, it's effective for taking out structures yes, maybe thats all it was intended for and I'm wrong, but I'd hoped it would be somewhat as lethal as the turrets seen in the single player game. There are probably quite a few I've forgotten but thats a few I could think of. Also and no I'm not screaming for these to be included in the patch, if they were however, more the better if not, I can live with it. It's not really that unbalanced, these are just some Ideas that I thought could make it more fun, might see them in a mod someday. Share your ideas, comments, criticisms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Actually I find that blasters usually bounce off destructable objects, so I need either explosives, sabers (take too long) or EWEBs (or the AT-ST of course). Demolitions are invaluable both for defense (setting traps) and destroying equipment. Their bombs are much faster than shooting locks (although I'll leave it up to you to decide which is faster, Tech hacking or demolitions blowing, although techs are definately safer). Bombs are also great for blowing up clusters of defenders when attacking, much quicker than trying to shoot them all or saber them all. Demos can rig an entire room worth of equipment to explode at once, taking himself and any attackers all out in one shot if needed. Plus, an EWEB takes time to setup and leaves the person vulnerable, and a Tech needs somebody to cover them while they hack through a lock. Whereas a Demo can just run by and toss a mine or two, then detonate as they get far enough away, taking out attackers and heavily damaging it instantly. Techs of course are excellent because they can give ammo and heal, and their shields are great. Not only that their DEMP2's heavily damage both vehicles and equipment. I haven't seen the Cloak bug you've mentioned, but I've heard a few mention it, so if it exists, that should probably be fixed. Korriban was NOT intended to be a saber only map. If it were, there would be no demolitionist classes, yet there are, so clearly Raven intended this. People don't like it? Tough. Make your own... ; ) That's like saying Hoth was intended for guns only, so the Jedi class should be removed. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense! I find that without explosives the map would be much more frustrating, considering how hard it is to chase down people and kill them or destroy the objects in time using only saber swipes. It's not a big saber duel and if you try to play it as one, it's just a big saber duel and not Siege. Your ideas are interesting, but I think that rather than mess up the current Siege maps people should make their own brand new ones. Then they can do it how they want. When the mapping tools are out there will be nothing stopping people from creating brand new scenarios that are to their liking. The EWEB is primarily for destroying structures (and vehicles). It is also valuable as a support weapon. This isn't a deathmatch where you just run around with your big gun killing random people. So you have to coordinate. On one server for example, (it was desert) the strategy was to have a Jedi blocking shots, while a guy had an EWEB going. So the Jedi protected him while he laid down the firepower. Jedi are very useful in this respect with their blocking ability in those two maps. The three Siege maps are just fine how they are. All I could ask for in a patch would be to add the option for bot support (with the bot routes being programmed in) and more stability (fewer crashes). More scenarios would be nice, but they don't have all the time and money in the world, so making them more stable and with bots as an option would be my thing. As long as they release siege making tutorials and the code, we can make our own and mod them to our heart's content! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapNut Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 seige sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy1984 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Hmmm well if the EWEB is solely meant for the destruction of structures, then I stand corrected it serves it's purpose well. And perhaps I overstated my distaste for the demolitionist. I didn't mean to imply they were useless. The traps they set up are indeed vital and extraordinarily usefull (though nothing is more irritating then the explosives timer expiring just before someone walks into the trap ) just I figured that the role of Destroying structures would be left for the demolitionist. I also standby the fact that an assault class can mow down a computer room faster than it would take for a demolitionist to set the room with explosives and blow it away in one go. This also goes with control panels. Setting up an eweb in front of the panels in desert destroys them in seconds. I've often taken out all three control rooms in a matter of 2 minutes tops with the assault by ramming the door controls with exploding swoops then shooting out computers in moments. Admittedly this was against fairly uncoordinated defenses, but eh, I just don't think the assault class should be able to do something like that. Again ... I could be on my own here (Also the dual light sabres tear through the structures... except for the door panels with repeating opposite diagonal swings) I also know Korriban isnt intended to be one big duel level , nothing is more irritating then watching your teammates duel in the centre courtyard as you try to get through the crystal defenses. Though in fact I think you're correct, without explosives It would indeed be too hard to really stop them from just running off. It's actually more force and trap involved than sabre combat and is actually great fun trying to work your way through the traps and the frantic crystal chases are great . One other thing I'd like to see, not a bug fix, just an additional feature is the reinforcement clock, alike Enemy territory, to know when the reinforcements will spawn. To be honest my only major gripe would be the issue of being able to destroy the key structures with blasters (barring the rancor cage and desert wall). Though I could be jumping the gun as I havent really played a match where all players play together in a coordinated force. Anyway regardless of this gripe I'll continue to play it regardless as it is truly great fun, the variety is there, it's got awesome potential with mappers and modders. Perhaps I'm just comparing it to ET to much :/ I should try and stop that EDIT: Yeah I agree I'd rather see more maps included in a patch. It could happen they included some in JO for duel . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blankie Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 "Personally I think this could be resolved by leaving this task solely to the demolitionist and his detpacks (perhaps also the jedi with the lightsabre) thus giving the demolitionist new importance." That would be as annoying as a team of Dark Jedi on Hoth's 3rd objective (taking out the shield generator that they can't hit). I think a demo does a fine job at taking out structure-types. He's mobile, unlike e-web assaults, and has a bacta for more health. His weapons are AoE and still work after death (in case of grip dark jedi, which SHOULD plague that map). I just don't see it as an issue. "Cloaking device, more of a bug that sometimes the thing just doesnt work at all, turning on then instantaneously turning off again." DEMP shots will cause it too stall or just not work completely. AFAIK, friendly fire DEMP shots... regardless if FF is on or not, will do this too. "Why not get rid of the explosives.. completely and give the demolitionist class the unique ability to stab the door/wall as katarn does in the level on the spaceship. This renders the demolitionist defenseless and while rely on their team mates to provide defense for them as they cut down the door." Just wouldn't work. Structures (sans the tomb) don't have *that* high health. That alone wouldn't make demos useful. On that note... random public players complain about anything and everything. You're basically not allowed to use the force/saber/guns or you'll be whined at. Taking out explosives is stupidly simple... lightside tech, force protection 3. You take 10-15 damage, and take out their entire mine trap... increased force regen + force heal3 (and team heal 2 for 50 a pop) and it's like the mines aren't even there. "Heavy weapons, why not make it feel like you really have a HEAVY weapon. Direct hits and close explosions I figure should knock enemy's off their feet like singleplayer, why not" I wouldn't mind that. Be nice if more people started abusing the homing function + tech backup for ammo though. It basically 1 hit kills things at that point. "EWEB: Maybe I'm just useless with it but I rarely get a kill with it" Ditto... then again, I don't like being stationary when facing bad guys anyways... takes out structures good For my complaints- Jedis on Hoth suck, aside from a dark jedi jumping the ravine (object2) and sometimes object4 and 5. I don't see why they have 50 max HP, especially considering their lackluster force abilities. Compare them to desert jedi... something just isn't right there. Dark side on Korriban seems really hard to play if you have a few competant people. If/When people learn to deal with trip mines, I forsee thermal detonators coming (back) into style. None of the other dark jedi class seem useful at all. The tech is completely pointless, as the 1 class that might need force (heavy) has increased force regen anyways. Nobody is going to run into a kata, which makes the jedi duelist fairly pointless. And the scout... speed does what exactly? Nothing useful on that map. That pretty much leaves assault, which is "okay" at best. The lack of level 3 dark side force powers is pretty disappointing. I have more, but meh... this is long as is Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavkov Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 i think siege is awesome i have been playiong ALOT since the game came and im still not tired of siege FFA CTF and TFFA! so this game rocks in mp only much more siege maps!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy1984 Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Well it appears It's just me , ahhh well. I can adapt, no biggy, I often benefit from it myself as I often play as an assault. Though the cloaking issue is a bug. Not being hit with the DEMP, as in even just as a game starts I've tried to cloak and it instantaneously turns off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Originally posted by JoeyJoJoShabado Destruction of Key points, IE the computers, walls, control panels. The thing is, basically any weapon can do this (bar the desert wall and specific door panels) and personally I see this as an issue really making the demolitionist, somewhat innefective. The assault class can absolutely tear through most destructible objectives with the st rifle and repeater. Personally I think this could be resolved by leaving this task solely to the demolitionist and his detpacks (perhaps also the jedi with the lightsabre) thus giving the demolitionist new importance. I've only played Seige a few times, but I quite like it. I'd say at this point the biggest drawback is that most players really don't know what they are doing and what the objectives are. At least this is what I have found on the public servers I have played on. But I agree the after people get the hang of it the potential is huge. The above would work in an ideal world, but in the end the demolitionist is not one of the classes that players gravitate towards (from what I have seen). Because of this, in games with a smaller number of players, there may not be anyone playing a demolitionist at all. If you make it so certain classes are the only ones that can do certain tasks which lead directly to objectives, you run the risk of not being able to win at all if no one is playing that role. In games of 4 vs. 4 and so on, there simply aren't enough players to play every role. At least, this is how I remember things Certainly you can make it so the demolisionist is the most effective at the thigs you mentioned, but I don't think other classes should be prevented from doing those things altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I think Siege is great game type and i really like playing that Hoth game when players play it nicely... = mostly with guns... But it have problems... (example in that Hoth game USUALLY players doesn't play nicely but they are all either jedis or they fill rooms, elevators, ... with mines, detpacks and thermals...) One and propably greatest problem in there is the lack of control >> Host of the game SHOULD be able to turn ON/OFF classes (or better set max amount of players per class...) >> Host should be able to Turn ON/OFF weapons and/or set their maximum and starting ammo amounts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 One and propably greatest problem in there is the lack of control >> Host of the game SHOULD be able to turn ON/OFF classes (or better set max amount of players per class...) >> Host should be able to Turn ON/OFF weapons and/or set their maximum and starting ammo amounts... This is already a big problem, so I'm all for giving them LESS choice honestly.. ; p I've seen servers that disabled force, or were sabers only (WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING??). When you disable something you always run the risk of unbalancing the game in some way. In FFA its not so big because people can just use other stuff, but in Siege this is a big problem. Disable explosives? Boom.. destroying structures just became way harder. Defending just became a lot harder as well. Disable Force? You just nerfed Jedi (as if they weren't nerfed enough already). Sabers only? Great job, you just ruined Korriban, or you just made the other two maps BOOOORING (Jedi running around hacking with sabers takes forever to break stuff). I think the idea with the classes was not that you HAD to have a certain class to win a map, just that certain classes do things differently (tactical) and sometimes easier. So you can have your tech hack throug the door... or you can have your Assault EWEB blast through the rocks. Or you can have your Jedi jump the chasm and throw the switch himself, etc. You can mine the crap out of the gates... or you can have a row of Kata/Drain Spammers (with energizers behind them), etc. The Demp2 vs. friendly Cloak sounds interesting, but you say that isn't the case with your cloak bug either... bummer. ; p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blankie Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 "If you make it so certain classes are the only ones that can do certain tasks which lead directly to objectives, you run the risk of not being able to win at all if no one is playing that role. In games of 4 vs. 4 and so on, there simply aren't enough players to play every role. At least, this is how I remember things " You can switch classes you know. I usually end up killing myself after certain objectives to become the "ideal" class for the next objective. IE, switching from sniper, to dark jedi or tech on desert between objectives 1 and 2. Going jedi (if no one else has) on Hoth ob2, etc. Sorry, can't help you with the cloak bug... if it makes you feel better, it's pretty worthless Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Disable Force? You just nerfed Jedi (as if they weren't nerfed enough already). I agree. In Seige a Jedi is no match for a assault trooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 If you're good enough, you could take one out, just like I've seen people in JO win games with almost nothing but a saber. But I think their main advantage is probably speed and stealth. Most of the maps get some of them Speed or Mind Trick, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blankie Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 "If you're good enough, you could take one out, just like I've seen people in JO win games with almost nothing but a saber. But I think their main advantage is probably speed and stealth. Most of the maps get some of them Speed or Mind Trick, right?" The hoth light jedi are horrible defenders. 50 HP with a saberstaff is a huge handicap when everyone else is toting guns. You can saberthrow by shutting off a blade, but that also leaves you defenseless to spam fire and only gives you a weak (compared to the guns) mid-range slow moving attack. Heal level 1 with normal force regen is pathetic. 5 HP for 50 force... wow, that'll help when that detonator hits you in the face for 80 damage. Push level 2 means you'll knock back every other shot (at best) but probably in the air or atleast, not back at the guy who shot it. The only semi-useful thing I've found with the light jedi is using it's push/pull and try to keep dark jedi from jumping the ravine (second objective on hoth). The dark jedi atleast has some use for completing objectives. Simply put, there are more useful classes than jedi to choose from on hoth, sans for dark jedi objective rushing. Desert is a good example of useful jedi. Grip level 3, rage level 3 (with bacta dispensers) and 100 health make for GOOD jedi defenders. Desert light jedi just own that map. Protect, absorb, mind trick... you can negate most of the locks simply with force jump. Dual sabers are also great for taking down the destructible objects in the first part. It was different in JO where you could choose *useful* force powers in hopes to take down gunners. In siege, you're sometimes stuck with less than stellar force abilities and subpar saber defense vrs regular spam fire... such is the case on Hoth, not so bad on desert... and non-existant on Korriban Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodstevens Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I agree siege is awsome but give us the option to have jedi selecting powers and skins like in ctf and make it an option to play as ctf style jedi in siege would be great things to give siege more players and most buddies from old jk to jo dont like not getting to select the force for jedi as stated in the post before this jedi are nerfed compared to heavy weapons and need to be better defenders. I like playing as the jedi on tatooine but hate the no lev 3 jump for the dark side...Also yep the jedi on hoth are lame and the dark are just about as lame the powers and skills can't contribute as much, as per say a assult class enough o' rambling... siege rocks Secret Sauce if I told you what the sauce is, it wouldn't be a secret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDKnite188 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 This is the third thread where I have proclaimed my love for Siege. Siege is something that I have been anticipating for a long time. It has the gun slinging action present in the Star Wars trilogy (as opposed to the crappy Prequel stuff ) but still features the power of Jedi. It's great fun and it features objective-based gameplay (the missions aren't "kill, kill, kill"). The maps even though could use some architectural enhancement are still grand. The six unique classes provide an added bonus of variety in playing style. Luckily I haven't seen everyone wanting to be a Jedi or Heavy Weapons. A lot of times I need Jedi or HW for support at positions! The Voice Chat Console is a nice addition. They introduced AI into the MP maps! WOOHOO! Things I would fix: 1. More Siege maps. I think the modders can fix this just fine! 2. I am annoyed by being halted whenever I try Voice Chat. I want to keep moving. 3. We should have some options in choosing models for the classes. For example, in the mercenary assault class, I might not just want to be a Rodian. I could be a Weequay or Cult Soldier. GOOD JOB RAVEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 seige is just average, imo...... ..... it's too bad that there are very few servers running it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by JDKnite188 Things I would fix: 1. More Siege maps. I think the modders can fix this just fine! 2. I am annoyed by being halted whenever I try Voice Chat. I want to keep moving. 3. We should have some options in choosing models for the classes. For example, in the mercenary assault class, I might not just want to be a Rodian. I could be a Weequay or Cult Soldier. Already in the planning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy1984 Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 I'd like the Heavy weapons to actually give you the impression they are HEAVY. An direct hit or one right at your feet sending you off your feet, not exactly a requirement, but hey it would be cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Saberdamagescale 2 makes Jedi far more useful in Siege than the default 1. Would increased Jedi blocking (g_sabertracesaberfirst 1) also help perhaps? Jedi blocking in Siege can be an asset, for example the Heavy Turrets on Hoth can be blocked and sent back by Dark Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 No, I think saberTraceSaberFirst is just bad blocking... Razor Ace will know, I shall ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I'm asking because I've never used it... ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavkov Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by AJL I think Siege is great game type and i really like playing that Hoth game when players play it nicely... = mostly with guns... But it have problems... (example in that Hoth game USUALLY players doesn't play nicely but they are all either jedis or they fill rooms, elevators, ... with mines, detpacks and thermals...) One and propably greatest problem in there is the lack of control >> Host of the game SHOULD be able to turn ON/OFF classes (or better set max amount of players per class...) >> Host should be able to Turn ON/OFF weapons and/or set their maximum and starting ammo amounts... Well just beacouse you are weak against Jedi and sith doesnt mean that it should be removed! i find it very easy to kill them if you are assault! and they only have 50hp! and for mines and stuff that is strategic couse you cant eb everywhere at the same time right? so you put up some mines for intruders. THATS why its siege! strategic game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king yoda Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 siege rocks. it´s the best game type, but the only problem is that you can´t play with bots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by Igor_Cavkov Well just beacouse you are weak against Jedi and sith doesnt mean that it should be removed! i find it very easy to kill them if you are assault! and they only have 50hp! and for mines and stuff that is strategic couse you cant eb everywhere at the same time right? so you put up some mines for intruders. THATS why its siege! strategic game! It is not about jedis or siths or... being too strong/weak... but it is that when I make the game and I am the host I SHOULD be able to set the rules how the game is played... If I want to make Empire Vs Rebels "blaster wars" on hoth I should be able to... I shouldn't be forced to play Sabers Vs Explosives on hoth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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