new civ

[Darth Windu]

Sith - the whole problem with what you just said is that it is all in a SWGB mindset. Instead of thinking within the limits of SWGB, such as tech levels and the different resources, you should be thinking of a completely new game.

 

Also, what you just said doesnt address the concern about playing as two civ's at the same time. Sure, starting with 2 CC's would be great, but the problem still exists.

[Sithmaster_821]

Actually, Windu, when I first came up with the idea, it was like you were playing as two different civs. But, instead of rushing to the boards to post my idea (like some nameless people), I spent a while and refined it, because that was one of my major concerns. Both sides share all the Naboo bonuses: free power, healing near buildings, etc. Identical units and buildings (citizens, town halls/ohtos, houses, markets (these are the Naboo drop sites), etc.) have the same costs and same stats. Citizens build and gather at the same speed, and can even share drop sites. The only real separation is the specialized buildings and the fact that they cannot build in the same areas. I have reviewed my idea, and I got rid of the whole pump thing as a necessity, the buildings automatically extend the swamp like Gaia's lush, but can be built anywhere. Also, if all of the town halls/ohtos are lost then the original town of the other side can build refugee citizens. Finally, cause I still think that they are OP, the Naboo also have slightly more expensive buildings.

 

And I don't know what RTS you are planning with no resources or set advancements.

[Admiral Vostok]

Sith - My major concern is that you are twice as hard to kill early in the game. There's a reason they don't let you build a second Command Center until TL3.

[Sithmaster_821]

Actually, in AoM:TT, you can build TC's in classical, and the atlanteans can build them in archaic. It has, in almost everyone's opinion, made the game better. It makes for longer classical periods, and a smaller chance that someone will be knocked out in classical. Also, it makes booming a viable option. I was skeptical too, but I thought that if Gaia, the only civ really who builds a tc in archaic, is the weakest god in the game, in terms of win percentage, then the Naboo shouldn't be too bad. I envisioned the Naboo to be a much stronger booming civ, staying within the confines of their town for the earlier portion of the game. They aren't meant to be taken out early (thats no fun for any civ), but merely harassed, forced into losing battles and raided relentlessly. And taking out one tc for the Naboo is almost as much of a death knell as it is for other civs, cause they only have the ability to build up half their units, and they will be mising half their economy. Taking out one of the inital Naboo tcs will pretty much decide the game in a 1v1.

[saberhagen]

I think it could be hard to balance this. The advantages and disadvantages are hard to quantify and hard to compare with ohter "normal" civs because it's so different. I've a feeling this combined civ will turn out to be either overpowered or much too diffficult for most people to play, and it'll be very hard to find the ideal in between.

[Admiral Vostok]

My thoughts exactly, Saberhagen. Though I suppose I should reserve judgement until Sith releases his finished design.

[Sithmaster_821]

Saberhagen-thats exactly the problem I've been wrestling with. If it is powerful but hard to carry out, it will be fairly balanced in the lower levels but dominate the upper levels. Then, if you nerf it for the upper levels, its too weak to be viable in the lower levels. I think that the key lies in decreasing the micro but adding more nerfs to compensate in upper levels. Its a hard and delicate process, and even if refined, one patch could mess everythnig back up again. Almost every game can cite a unit or a civ or both that is affected by this lower/upper gap balancing problem.

 

Vostok-thanks for waiting, but any suggestions would be good. Many heads work better than one.

[Admiral Vostok]

Personally, I don't see it working properly if you have the bases separated as you described. It would work better, in my opinion, if they started with two buildings quite close together. This would make it easier to destroy them (you only have to explore to find one base, not two) and easier to manage (you don't have to continually scroll back and forth - which might not be a problem for hotkey users but is a huge problem for beginners).

 

The disadvantage is of course that you can't have your buildings separated as much as you wanted. The remedy to this I think is that Gungans should only be allowed to build on Swamp, which emanates from all their buildings (like Gaia's lush). This will keep the Gungan's buildings together, and away from the Naboo's (who can build anywhere).

 

Also how about when one Command Centre is destroyed (either the Naboo or Gungan one) a single worker from that civ appears free of charge at the other Command Centre? This would get around the messy fact of building worker glurgs at the Royal Palace. This worker is generated regardless of whether you already have workers of that type available. If you have none of that type of worker, and your free one is killed, another will respawn until you get your other Command Centre rebuilt - though there will be a delay with the respawn.

 

How's that? Oh and by the way I started combining civs and decided it destroyed too much of the character I'd built into the separate civs, so gave up - for the moment.

[Darth Windu]

sith - from my pov, you're making the civ combination way more complicated than it really needs to be.

 

You have tackled it in the way of thinking that there are seperate civs, the Royal Naboo and Gungans, but as the 'General' or whatever, you get to control both. If you can get it to work, it would be good, but i really doubt that it's possible.

 

On the other hand, i tackled it by way of thinking that, after Ep1, the Royal Naboo and Gungans really form a singular defensive alliance, in that they are both integrated into a single chain of command, and hence to play as a combined civ, much like the Confederacy is a combination of the Commerce Guild, Corporate Alliance, Techno Union etc.

[lukeiamyourdad]

ACtually, it would be weird if they built all of their different units in the same buildings. Unlike the Separatists, they ARE two different civs working as one. The Separatists are just too similar with each other which makes the comparison impossible.

[Darth Windu]

luke - gameplay > realism

 

Sure, it may look odd, but then who's to say that Gungan troopers wouldn't be trained by the Royal Naboo?

 

As for comparing the Confederacy and Naboo, i don't see the difference. The Confederacy are an even more varied alliance than the Naboo are, so i dont see any problems in combining the Royal Naboo and Gungans into a single, integrated civ.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Actually no.

 

The Confederacy has units that still fits in with the Trade Federation and vice-versa. They use almost the same tactics.

 

The Naboo and the Gungans are two different civs mainly because they fight in two different ways.

 

You cannot compare two almost indentical civ with two different ones in this situation.

 

And of course, the Naboo who figth with rifles will teach the Gungans how to use slingers...

 

And you're the last one on this planet(maybe the whole galaxy) who should use "gameplay>realism"...

[Darth Windu]

you forgot universe...

 

Anyhow, just because the Gungans and Royal Naboo use different weapons doesnt mean that the Royal Naboo cant train the Gungans in TACTICS - something which they probably need. That really doesnt matter anyway, considering that Gameplay > Realism.

 

As for the Confederacy, Vostok has already pointed out that the TF and Confederacy have different fighting styles. Sure, some units are similar, but so what?

[Sithmaster_821]

Vostok: I don't know how you understood it, but the two starting tcs are fairly close (like a screen's length apart. The gungans can build anywhere, but no one else can build on their swamps, so that gungan buildings remain separate from the others. Also, you can build refugees from the other side if all their tcs are destroyed. I thought it was a better realistic problem.

 

Windu: In my version of the Separatists, each different faction has its own separate troop building, and these also have different functions too (Commerce Guild building does econ ups, Banking Guild building trades, etc.), although, as i said in my template, it was Vostok's idea, not mine. And, yes, the two sides have different strengths and tactics, too. The gungan units are cheaper than the naboo ones, especially in pop, but less effective, so you'll be using the gungans en masse and the naboo troops (except for their pitiful troopers, who probably won't be seen on the battlefeild once the gungans can get access to their ranged troopers) will be used as support. Also, this nature makes the armies mostly gungan early on and more naboo later when the resources come piling in. Essentially, each side's strengths offset the other's weaknesses.

[Majin Boba Fett]

gungans and naboo need to be seperate yo. its two completely different civilizations on one planet.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

Anyhow, just because the Gungans and Royal Naboo use different weapons doesnt mean that the Royal Naboo cant train the Gungans in TACTICS - something which they probably need. That really doesnt matter anyway, considering that Gameplay > Realism.

 

You seem to forget that using different weapons implies using different tactics. Fighting while using slingers will require different tactics then fighting with a rifle.

[Majin Boba Fett]

why would the gungans need training anyways? they did fine in the battle of naboo.

[Darth Windu]

sith - your Confederacy idea seems to be too complicated as well, but that's for another time. One question though, you say that no-one else can build on the gungan swamp thingy. Is there some way to destroy or move that gungan swamp thingy? I ask because otherwise, gungan workers can go all over the map, building their buildings and denying that land to their enemies.

 

Nitro - uh...the Gungans got slaughtered in the grassy plains battle. In addition to teaching to help improve their discipline and formation skills, they would need training on how to work with Royal Naboo infantry and armour.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Destroy buliding, swamp goes away. Nothing complicated.

 

And teh Gungan aren't undiscipline. That's not why they were defeated. How about outgunned and outnumbered?

[Darth Windu]

luke - it's sith's idea, not yours. Hence my question stands for sith.

 

As for the gungans, yes, they were undisciplined. Look at their lines of battles when they prepare to fight the TF. Also, they would need to learn to work with Royal Naboo forces. Finally, GAMEPLAY > REALISM

[lukeiamyourdad]

I assumed the answer to your question toward sith would be that. I do not see another alternative. It's how "swamps" are handled in other games anyway.

 

Destruction of realism for gameplay doesn't make things better.

[Admiral Vostok]

Destruction of realism for gameplay doesn't make things better.

I thought I was the only one who believed that!

 

Sith: Sorry, I was under the impression that the command centers were somewhat separated. It could work if done right, though I think each command center should possibly be weaker than the other civs' command centers.

 

Windu: Sith's idea for the Separatists isn't complicated at all (note that I seem to remember the idea is based on mine, as Sith said himself, so I'm commenting on how my Confederacy works). Essentially he's just grouping units that belong to each organisation into the one production building. Just the same as grouping infantry into a barracks and mechs into a factory.

 

As for combining the Naboo and Gungan units into the same building, I agree it doesn't work. It works for the Separatists because not only do they use the same units as each other but these units are constructed in the same factories as each other. The same cannot be said for the Naboo and Gungans.

 

Maybe I will try combining the Naboo and Gungans myself. I tried with the Separatists and it didn't work too well, but maybe the Naboo could.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Although I still I'm for "Gameplay>Realism", I'm not for the destruction of realism for gameplay.

 

I remember an old Vietnamese movie that was telling the story of some vietnamese warriors during the war against France over a 100 years ago. For the sake of the Good guys(Let's call this gameplay) who need to win of course, they made the french unable to use their muskets(realism here would be the french using their muskets and slaughtering the vietnamese). They only used their bayonnets. Just a little side story about Gameplay and realism.

[Sithmaster_821]

Windu: ditto what Luke and Vostok have said about both of your problems. It would be analogous more to Gaia's lush than the Undead blight or the Zerg creep, in that it is more for the stopping of other players buildings than the control of your own growth.

 

Vostok: Yeah, you'd probably need that too. TC strengths are based on relative importance, and the one of the two tcs isn't as important as the sole tc. I'd probably do it with hp, and not other stats, though, so that town halls/ohtos can still protect their surrounding area.

 

Nitro: I agree that, realistically, the gungans don't really need training (they stood up fairly well on the Grassy Plains against a larger and more advanced army, and they did their job, act as a diversion). But that still doesn't mean that the Gungan armies aren't lacking in certain areas (like air units), that a partnership with the Naboo could alleviate.

[Majin Boba Fett]

true dat