new civ

[Admiral Vostok]

Oh well that's alright then. Please ignore my comment.

[Darth Windu]

I SAW IT! I hired out the Ep2 DVD and saw the speeder bike scene. It's in the doco 'pre-visualisation of Ep2' on the 2nd disc.

 

PS: i've replaced the Geonosian Cannon with the Corporate Alliance Tanbk Droid in my SWGB2 template.

[Sithmaster_821]

I just saw some of the earlier posts concerning the TF and the Confeds, and I'd like to highlight the fact that I have switched sides. I know that in the past, I have been a virulent supporter of having the civs separate, but, because, in thinking about it I decided that the best course of action was to combine the two groups under the name separatists. This is not for any of the reasons that Windu has or likely will have, but because I felt that even my scarce 7 civs were too much to ensure true variety in the civs, and could also hamper balancing adjustments and the like. Also, the combination of civs gives a game designer the ability to field a wider variety of units, so that civs don't run inot the problem of not having the redundant counter (having two counters for every unit, typically one soft, one hard, or one early game, one late game, is the best idea (see AoM's norse for reasons), and, equally important, allows the designer to be more faithful to the movies (no gungan air, tf seige, etc.). The reduced civ number also helps in CPU usage, and allows the civs to be truly unique (the tf and the confeds kept stepnig on each other's toes in terms of features, units, and bonuses). I am trying to decide between 4 civs (Rebs, Reps, Imps, Seps), or the addition of a 5th combined Naboo civ (I have a really good idea on how to make this work and be VERY unique, but I'm still balancing it in my head, unlike certain people when they post their topics, who only concenr themsleves with correctness realistically). I have a couple of other ideas, even units, but I don't plan to make a second template (too much work). Not that it matters, a lot of it is lifted straight from my original templates.

[Darth Windu]

LOL, so finally, after bashing my idea's regarding the combining of the TF and Confederacy, and then the Royal Naboo and Gungans, Sith has admitted that he was wrong and that my idea had merit. Amusing indeed...

[joesdomain]

This is how I would like to see the civilizations set up:

 

Rebel Alliance

Galactic Empire

Galactic Republic

Royal Naboo

Trade Federation

Confederacy

Wookies

Gungans

 

With the option in the option menu where you combine two civilizations on certain maps such as Wookies and Rebels or Naboo and Gungans or Trade Federation and Confederacy.

[Sithmaster_821]

No, Windu, your ideas have less merit in my mind now, because, although we agree that the Naboo/gungans and Confeds/TF should be merged, I disagree with your reasoning even more. In fact, I've moved further from where you are coming from than I was before. I actually have been moving closer to Darth54 ideologically, although Blizzard games still suck. I don't think you read my post, or that all went buzzing right over your head. The TF aren't so much as merged with the Confeds as dropped entirely, with a handful of their units/bonuses going into confed hands, and, as for the naboo and the gungans, i wouldnt say they are exactly merged. More later, still balancing.

[Darth Windu]

Sith - so the Naboo and Gungans will be merged, but not really merged? That makes sense...

 

Also, i thought we already had the discussion about the TF being essential as a seperate civ so that players can play out Ep1 senario's...

[lukeiamyourdad]

Add a handful of units for the particular scenario without creating a new civ completely. It's quite doable.

 

Although I still want my separate civs:mad: I'm through arguing.

[Admiral Vostok]

I'd prefer separate civs, because I think the Trade Federation has a very different way of waging war than the Confederacy. The Federation sits back and bombards then slowly advances. The Confederacy swarms quickly and overwhelms. However, if they were to be combined I should hope they abide by these criteria:

 

They MUST be called Separatists, not the Confederacy.

It must be possible for the civ to play a Battle of Naboo campaign. By this I mean the following: in many RTS campaigns, you start out the campaign without the full compliment of units. The Separatists civ should do the same in that during the Battle of Naboo part of the campaign, you don't have access to all the units, only those associated with the Trade Federation.

They should have two different Workers, a PK droid and a Geonosian Drone. Not sure how exactly they'd work, but meditate on this I will.

 

Again I'd prefer separate Naboo civs, but given enough thought they too could be merged. Again my reasoning is that they fight very differently: the Naboo uses speedy elite units to strike hard and fast, the Gungans specialise in defensive actions, they move slowly but purposefully using numbers. In fact I'm most opposed to this merger because their fighting styles are virtually complete opposites. But here's my criteria should they need to be merged:

 

Their bases must be done in such a way that the wonderful architecture of both civs is present, but not appear like two totally different civs. This might mean that the stone masonry of the Naboo is mostly present while the organic bulbs of the Gungans is reserved for underwater buildings only. Again, meditate on this I will.

It somehow needs to be balanced well, considering each civ has weaknesses. The Royal Naboo have good Air, Jedi and small speedy Mechs. The Gungans have good Sea, Seige and large tough Mechs. This would leave their only weakness being Troops, which I suppose could work.

 

If I'm motivated enough I might do up my own versions of combined civs just so I satisfy all my own criteria.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I find it quite hard to balance out the Naboo/Gungans. Speedy mechs and slow and strong mech? I think one of the two classes should be nerfed down in favor of the other or we'll have the ultimate mech civ here.

 

Their Air force should also be nerfed down in favor of the better gungan navy or they'll slaughter everyone on island maps(especially the civs who don't have great air and navy).

 

The infantry also poses quite a problem. We have the Naboo commando-like units and the basic gungan canon-fodder. Unlike a civ like the confed, oh pardon me, the separatists, whose infantry is mainly composed of canon-fodder units, the Naboo/Gungan have both. One of them should be nerfed down.

 

Remove the Jedi as one of their strength, there was only two of them during the conflict, it barely ressembles a "strength" even if Obi-Wan was one them. Don't nerf them, but turn them into an average Jedi civ meaning their not strong but not weak neither. Makes a bit more sense.

 

The only thing that I think doesn't really require thougth are the heavies(gungan of course) which seem to mesh well no matter what happens.

[Darth Windu]

With the Naboo/Gungans, this is how i developed the combined civ.

 

Buildings - all land buildings are Royal Naboo, and Sea buildings are Gungan (including shipyard)

 

Mechs - if you look at Ep1, the Gungan 'mechs' are used for one thing only - infantry support. They provide shield cover and arty support for the Gungan infantry, whereas the Naboo have Light Strike Vehicles. In other words, the Naboo mechs provide the shoot-n-scoot capability while Gungan mechs go with the infantry.

 

Air - i only gave the Naboo one combat aircraft, the N-1 Fighter. The reason i did this was because if they had a bomber, they would be far too strong consiering their infantry and naval strength.

 

Navy - the Naboo's strongest point. Various units like Frigates and long-range cruisers as well as one of their more unique units, the Starfighter Carrier. Due to the ability of all Naboo (ie Gungan) ships to submerge, they are very powerful in the water.

 

Jedi - all Jedi are generic in my template, except for the Republic's Jedi Master

 

Did i miss anything?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Yes, the infantry.

 

 

I won't start on your starfighter carrier...

[Sithmaster_821]

Here's my idea. Its still in the works, but here it goes: a Naboo player would, in a normal SP or MP game start off with two tcs-a Gungan one and a Naboo one. To help curb the enormous economic advantage of this, both the worker glurgs and the Naboo citizens train slower than their counterparts (this is justified in real-life by the Naboo/Gungans having the only living villagers, the others are quick to make robots). Gungan workers can only build gungan buildings and naboo citizens can only build naboo buildings. In order to maintain this seperation throughout the game, I stole some ideas from my template. The Naboo and Gungans have free power at each building, but the Gungans must build a sort of water pump near their buildings which eminates this swamp texture that only gungans can build on. The start TC would probably also create this, so that you don't run into problems early on. That way the two sets of buildings would never become co-mingled (which would look stupid). Other than that, both sides have the same bonuses and the like, to maintain a sense of continuity (like the Naboo healing within a certain range of buildings thing from my template).

 

As for units, the naboo I envisioned having the most of the air and the mechs (no stupid ball shooter on dinosaur mehcs), some of the troopers, the jedi and counter-jedi, and they would be built from either the hangar, the RSF station or the jedi temple. The gungans would have most of the troops, all the heavies (except anti-air), the navy, one air unit, the sheilding, and they would be built from either a militiagung outpost or a creature training center.

 

Vostok, in my mind, the Confeds don't merge with the TF. The TF is instead dropped and the Confeds just absorb some of their units and bonuses. The TF just become another aspect of the Confeds (who are now called Separatists).

[lukeiamyourdad]

Hmmm, they do seem to require a hell of a lot of space management.

 

The units are fine but I'm quite skeptical about the buildings. They'll require a lot more work then other civ. You have to prepare an area for the Gungan and one for the Naboo which, depending on the actual size of the area affected by the water pump, will require an enormous area compared to the other civ.

[Darth Windu]

luke - well, the Starfighter carrier is so that the Naboo can conduct strikes from the sea. This gives the Naboo player more flexability, allows for thwe weakness of no Naboo bomber, and gives opposition players more incentive to destroy the Naboo navy. Also, realistically, it makes sense. After Ep1, the Gungans and Naboo became 'friends' and built the Starfighter Carrier - a mix of Royal Naboo and Gungan technology, and a way to react rapidly to any situation on the planet (remember their core is water)

 

sith - that seems just like playing as two civs at once. I really do think that the civ, as you have portrayed it, involves too much micro management as opposed to the other civs.

[Sithmaster_821]

Luke, yes but you will be starting with two tcs, both spaced apart, so you have a lot of room to work with. And the pump thing won't have that big of a range. You could have a Naboo and gungan forward base, but the two building sets would be clustered together, but probably still fit onto one screen size (maybe a little more).

 

Windu, the micro is all in the balance. Many a strong tactic is balanced by additional micro. Remember, even with the slower building of vils, you'd be much further ahead economically than your opponents

[Darth Windu]

Sith - with your micro, it's not so much the time it takes to build structures that has me concerned, but the fact that it seems, at least to me, that a Naboo player will be building two different civs at the same time. I really cant see how this could be balanced, and i also think that using that method would make the Naboo an unpopular civ, or players would simply build Royal Naboo or Gungan but not both.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Yeah, he's right. They already have to manage two tcs unlike other players.

They're at quite a disadvantage from the beginning(micro wise). However, I guess having an additionnal tc would prove to be an advantage since if one falls you still have the other...You really have to nerf down their tcs...

 

The problem comes from building two sets of buildings using two different ways.

[Admiral Vostok]

Never thought I'd say it, but Windu is right and Sith is wrong.

 

The comments that both Windu and Luke have brought up have merit. As Windu says, you're effectively managing two civs while your opponent only has to manage one. I can't really see this idea working. However, this also means that early in the game, because they have two TCs, the Naboo are twice as hard to destroy as their opponents. Having workers build slower isn't enough to counter this, in my opinion. So they'll be more microing (having to zoom back and forth between bases will be very annoying) and harder to destroy, making them dislikable to players and enemies alike.

 

What sort of fighting style will the civ specialise in? Because the Naboo and Gungans, as I have said, fight in very different ways.

 

As for the Trade Fed, will all the units seen in Episode I as part of the Trade Federation be present in your template? To be specific, will they have:

- STAPs

- Battle Tanks

- MTTs

- Droid Carriers

- Droidekas

- Droid Starfighters

 

If any of these are excluded I will not be happy!

 

In the next few days I intend to write my own plans for combined Naboo and Separatist civs to fit in my template. One of the things I will be focussing on is how to bring out the fighting styles of both civs.

 

Finally, could you stick your original template on the web so I can have a refresher? Or at least post a link to where it was on the forums.

[lukeiamyourdad]

It shouldn't really be a problem for the Trade Federation Separatists merger since both have quite similar fighting styles unlike the Naboo/Gungan.

 

I believe that if we merge the Trade Fed and the Confed, all Ep1 vehicles will be included in the Ep1 campaign and in the toybox. If not then the Separatists have too many vehicles.

[oback]

mon calamari

[Majin Boba Fett]

mandalorians:fett:

[Admiral Vostok]

I wouldn't say the Confederacy and Federation fight that similarly. The Federation lines all their units up in formation, then attack in an orderly fashion. The Confederacy charges all their units in a headlong rush, using swarm tactics. However their styles aren't as different as the Naboo peoples'.

 

All Episode I vehicles must be in the civ! I think it could be done without them being too overpopulated. Afterall, the Separatists strength is in their numbers... of course you'd probably have to leave out those units that didn't make it to the movie, like the Corporate Alliance Tank, and just have the MTT as a super-heavy vehicle.

[lukeiamyourdad]

But still makes no sense for people. They look at the Separatists like the Confed. It will look weird having both AAT and Homing Spider Droids on the battlefield.

[Sithmaster_821]

Wow, I guess no one here plays MP...

 

I would kill to start with two towns. Period. The boost in vill production alone would be worth the trouble. If they didn't require you to build different buildings in different towns, this would seriously be OP. Think, you have near 2x the vil production, access to near two times the amount of recourses (you can't starve me out of gold), have two areas that the opponent must concentrate on, two strong attacking buildings to use for defense, the ability to build vils/do techs while advancing, 2x the starting pop, probably a lslightly more than the starting vils (can't be too strong now), all for a little micro and slower vil production? Seriously, if having to manage two fronts and two economies (its not even really that, the two start a screen's lenght away) is too much for you people, I shudder to think how you play past t2. There are some people here who I would expect that from (no names), but you other guys need to sit back and think how you are over reacting. This is like having a troop center at one end of your base and a mech factory at the other. Not very hard to manage, is it?

 

Vostok-any TF units not included in the civ, will be in the scenerio box.