Admiral Vostok Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Heroes other than Vader and Skywalker? Who would you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Originally posted by Admiral Vostok Heroes other than Vader and Skywalker? Who would you suggest? "Generic" Jedi and Sith would be just perfect! There's no need to think a lot about it! If you want names, make it like WC3, where heroes have generic names about realism : some people (like me) like when a game based on a movie is as close to the movie as possible. Yes, they have to adjust some stuff, but creating entire civs (wooks and gungans) out of nothing is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Ditto. Like Darth and Froz mentionned, it could be simple officers, special units or Jedi/Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Personally I'd rather have the heroes from the movies than "generic" heroes. But maybe I don't fully understand your concept here. Do you mean it should work like in WC3 where you select the type of hero you want, in this case you choose either a Jedi/Sith, or an Officer, or a political leader, and they all have generic powers that each civ has the same. However their names are generated randomly depending on the civ, much like the computer player's names in RM games. So for example if you're playing the Rebellion your Jedi hero might be Luke Skywalker, your Officer might be General Dodonna and your political leader might be Princess Leia. If you're playing the Trade Federation your Sith hero might be Darth Maul, your officer OOM-9 and your political leader Nute Gunray. Is this what you mean? If not please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Let's take Froz's Special Op Commando. It's not a movie hero, it has its own unique abilities and it's not generic since you can have only one(correct me Froz if I'm wrong). Its name will always be Special Op Commando, a non-movie "hero". I guess it's not exactly a "hero" unit then, more like one with uncanny abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 Actually I've taken that commando stripped it abilities and made him a normal unit. A made a different Republic one but yes if I stuck with him only one could be created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 What to people think about Generic heroes? I' warming to the idea, actually. This is what I mean: Every civ can buy the same three types of heroes, that is a Jedi/Sith hero, an Officer hero and a Political hero. Their powers are the same for each civ. This would make them easier to play with, as you don't have to figure out all their powers everytime you play a new civ. Perhaps if that is too boring, each hero gets a single unique power as well as a couple of other generic powers. Other than that they're equal in stats and cost. The heroes I think would be as follows (J=Jedi/Sith, O=Officer, P=Politician) Confederacy - J: Count Dooku, O: Super Battle Droid Officer, P: Poggle the Lesser We'll apparently see a Super Battle Droid Officer as a significant character in the opening of Episode III Galactic Empire - J: Darth Vader, O: General Veers, P: Grand Moff Tarkin Galactic Republic - J: Obi-Wan Kenobi, O: Clone Officer, P: Bail Antilles(?) Gungans - J: ?, O: General Jar Jar Binks, P: Boss Nass Rebel Alliance - J: Luke Skywalker, O: General Han Solo, P: Princess Leia Royal Naboo - J: Qui-Gon Jinn, O: Captain Panaka, P: Padme Amidala Trade Federation - J: Darth Maul, O: OOM-9, P: Nute Gunray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Originally posted by Admiral Vostok What to people think about Generic heroes? I' warming to the idea, actually. This is what I mean: Every civ can buy the same three types of heroes, that is a Jedi/Sith hero, an Officer hero and a Political hero. Their powers are the same for each civ. This would make them easier to play with, as you don't have to figure out all their powers everytime you play a new civ. Perhaps if that is too boring, each hero gets a single unique power as well as a couple of other generic powers. Other than that they're equal in stats and cost. The heroes I think would be as follows (J=Jedi/Sith, O=Officer, P=Politician) Confederacy - J: Count Dooku, O: Super Battle Droid Officer, P: Poggle the Lesser We'll apparently see a Super Battle Droid Officer as a significant character in the opening of Episode III Galactic Empire - J: Darth Vader, O: General Veers, P: Grand Moff Tarkin Galactic Republic - J: Obi-Wan Kenobi, O: Clone Officer, P: Bail Antilles(?) Gungans - J: ?, O: General Jar Jar Binks, P: Boss Nass Rebel Alliance - J: Luke Skywalker, O: General Han Solo, P: Princess Leia Royal Naboo - J: Qui-Gon Jinn, O: Captain Panaka, P: Padme Amidala Trade Federation - J: Darth Maul, O: OOM-9, P: Nute Gunray Hey, I like your Jedi/officer/politician idea. In a sense, that's exactly like WC3 (warrior, dex-based and caster heroes). What I mean by "generic" heroes is that the game gives every hero a random name. In skirmish and MP, there would be no movie SW characters; that good for peeps who want heroes AND for the purists). Let me explain how it works with WC3 : In WC3, one of the Alliance's hero is the Paladin. In a skirmish or MP game, when you summon a pally, the game will give him a random name (10 or 12 names in total, enough for a different name is every player in the game gets a pally). For example, one of the name is "Buzan the Fearless". So my pally in the game could get that name, and the enemy's will get another. That way, each hero is "unique" in each game. In the campaigns however, one of the Protagonist is a pally called Arthas. He's like a normal pally, but has a special name. "Arthas" never appears as a name in a MP game. Here's how I see the system in a SW RTS game (example with rebels) : They get a Jedi hero, a politician hero and an officer (to take your class idea) In the campaign, Luke would be a "normal Jedi", but with Luke as a name. In the MP game, the Jedi you summon would be called by a random name (e.g. Dake Coral (my first KotOR generated name ^_^)). Han would be a normal "officer" with Han Solo (or general solo) as a name. The MP version could be called something like "Lieutenant Coral". et cetera That's what I mean with "generic heroes". Purist would like it (we don't intefere with the movies outside the campaigns) and it's a really great system for hero based RTS (it's a LOT better than just having "General" as the name like in RoN). Anyways, these are just my thoughts.... EDIT : of course we would have to make stuff more unique. Gungans (if they ever make it in the other game) should not have Jedi, as the wookies. Rebels and Imperials are more similar, but perhaps the rebels politician should be stringer than Imps, and Imps officers stronger than Rebels' (or something like that). Finally, every hero should have different skills (spells). Otherwise, the game will get boring really fast. Man, I just like this idea. WC3 system plus SW stuff would keep me happy for quite a lot of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Nice idea actually. But then what would be the purpose of the political hero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 I don't know but I'm still not overly excited about movie heroes being apart of the main RM. Campaigns they are great to set out the story but not so great in a normal game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I see how it works, that sounds alright. However before Sith gets over here and goes into a fit because someone likes a WC3 idea, I think we need to learn from the mistakes WC3 heroes made. In WC3, you can sometimes defeat an entire army with the hero. Battles come down to who can click their spells the fastest. This is not what we want. While in Star Wars it is true that the actions of a few effect the destiny of the entire galaxy, it doesn't translate to good gameplay. Heroes should be far less powerful than this, and mostly (except for the Jedi) cannot handle themselves on their own. When I first read your idea, Darth, I didn't like the random name thing because the Purist in me said "these names aren't from the movies!" but then as you explained that it gets around interference with the movies I get your point. I'm still not entirely convinced because I would like to use movie heroes, but I guess they are better left for the campaigns. The other advantage is that when you hero dies, they don't get resurrected, you just get assigned a new random name. On the other hand, perhaps we really don't even need names? My first question: if we had a Jedi hero, would we not have buildable Jedi at all? I'll assume for the rest of this post that you only get one Jedi. So here's how I imagine the classes of hero working: JEDI - Very powerful in combat, but has few if any "aura" abilities that benefit friendly units. As such the Jedi performs well on his own, and is excellent at infiltration missions and the like. Most of his powers are combat based, such as Push or Lightning. OFFICER - Military officers are not very good in combat, but their main strength is giving benefits to surrounding friendly units. As such they are best brought to battle, but need to be defended. They might have powers that increase units' rate of fire, increase units' speed or sabotage enemy buildings. As something extra, Officers riding in a transport increase that transport's armour. POLITICIAN - Politicians are rarely seen in the midst of battle, but are good at leading their civs and furthering their cause off the battlefield. As such the Politicians powers are more focussed on the base and on defense. For example they might increase building production, increase worker's speed, or even have a power similar to AoM's Ceasfire where both sides stop fighting while negotiations take place. As something extra like the Officer, Politicians garrissoned in buildings increase the building's armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 I say scrap the Jedi hero and make it a type of soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I say scrap Jedi and Political heroes and just leave Commanders/Generals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I say you don,t know what you're talking about!(not you froz) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I could say the same for you luke. Vostok - with your 'politcal hero' idea, it seems to look a lot like the 'Patriot' unit from the RoN exapsnion 'Thrones and Patriots'. Is that where you got it from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 He is probably only calling it a political hero which makes sense. Not all of us plagiarize Windu..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Just to get back to the random names.... I just think it sounds better for a hero to have a name. I didn't like the system in RoN, so I thought that we could just use WC3's system. On the Jedi/soldier stuff..... I say keep the Jedi. A normal soldier would be quite boring (IMO), as it would be quite like the officer. A jedi, on the other hand, has some potential as a "warrior hero". We saw at the end of Ep2 Windu and some other Jedi leading a squad of clones, so having a Jedi hero could fit with the movies. And on WC3 mistakes... Blizzard always said that WC3 was an RPS, not an RTS. Therefore, heroes do have a lot of importance. However, that doesn't mean it's just a clicking fest. WC3 is not about clicking the spell as fast as possible (most have cooldowns anyway), but about how to use the right spells and the right heroes in different situations. Of course this kind of stuff doesn't fit with SW or any other large-scale RTS, but fits WC3's universe very well. (that was kinda off-topic, but I need to defend WC3 in these dangerous places of the net ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted March 26, 2004 Author Share Posted March 26, 2004 A Jedi hero for each Civ if I'm not mistaken I never saw a Gungan or Wookiee Jedi. Plus we never saw Darth Maul leading a group of droids into battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Windu - I was completely unaware that an RoN expansion even existed. In what ways is my Politician similar? Froz - I also think making a type of Soldier hero is a bit boring, and not really true to the movies. Jedi heroes work much better. In the case of Gungans and Wookiees, perhaps they're the only civs who don't get a Jedi hero? Or perhaps they get a different hero, like two Officer heroes instead of just one. Or perhaps in place of a Jedi, they get a Warrior hero, that isn't quite as good as a Jedi but is a lot cheaper. But this all depends on my question: does every civ have normal Jedi as they do now in addition to this Jedi hero, or would the Jedi hero be the only Jedi for a civ? Also your comment about Darth Maul leading battles - I completely agree. That's why my Jedi hero does not grant benefits to those units around them, and are better used on their own. The Officer hero is the unit that leads battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 I only used Mace&Clones as an example to show that a Jedi hero would just fight with the units and stay with the "army" all the time. Like most of you, I don't think they should add any kind of bonuses (like you said, that's for the officer). For the Soldier hero.... Like I said in my first post (p.1), I am against the idea of giving Jedi to civs who don't have any connection with Jedi. That is, I would only give Jedi to Republic, Empire, Rebels and perhaps the confeds (dooku!). I just got a new idea though... What if we actually scrap the Jedi hero, and replace it with the warrior hero (I seem to contradict myself, but read on). Each civ would get their warrior hero. However, the civs that have some "connections" with Jedi (see above) would have a Jedi as their warrior hero. This would also help to create unique heroes (it's a must, btw), since there would only be like 3-4 Jedi/Sith to design. Anyway, that's just a new idea to discuss on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 When I said solider I ment anything besides a Jedi that can hold himself in battle. I didn't mean a basic trooper above the rank of the others. I'm still not so sure about Jedi heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 I think buildable Jedi heroes can only work if there are no regular Jedi available. If you can build many Jedi anyway, a Jedi hero isn't that great. But if you can't build regular Jedi, a Jedi hero is that much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Angelus Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 How about making the Jedi hero a Jedi Master, that way you can still have generic Jedi Knights but they would be weaker than the master. Also, if you did use movie based heroes, one way to balance them out could be something like this: Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader (examples) they would be more powerful than the other heroes but if they come close to each other on tha map, the players lose control of them as they have a duel. Any bonus effects they had on other units would also be lost, they would be too busy with their confrontation to continue leading their troops. I'm not sure how those battles would be resolved, maybe the loser escapes badly wounded and needs to be taken back to base to be healed (Luke after Bespin). Lord Angelus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Yeah Master Heroes and Knight generic. Not a bad idea. The duel thing seems fun but what happens when say Han meets Vader? How many chances does he stands against him? And welcome(maybe welcome back) to our little gang. Your name seems familiar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Angelus Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Thanks for the welcome back, I have posted a few times in the past. Anyway, I was thinking that it would only apply to the most powerful heroes but now that I think about it more, each hero could have a nemesis, when they meet the effect I posted above happens. Luke and Vader Han and Boba Fett Leia and Tarken Obi-Wan and Maul Anakin and Dooku etc Another option could be Movie heroes or Generic, it would be selected before the game begins. Lord Angelus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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