Admiral Vostok's revised SWRTS design

[Admiral Vostok]

I have made many changes, and am eager to hear what everyone thinks. Some stuff is the same as the old design, but most is different, so you'll probably have to read through the whole lot to get all the little changes.

 

The biggest changes are:

Reduced the number of civs to five

Made the resource system more Star Warsy and unique

Added Heroes

Removed Jedi from all civs except Republic

Removed naval combat

Added special attacks which are like C&CG General Powers and AoM God Powers.

 

The address is http://vostok.150m.com/New/index.html or you can use the link in my sig.

[Darth Windu]

Well, i havent read it yet (brigning it up) but i already have one gripe. When i suggested that the Republic should be the only civ to get Jedi, everyone else including you said it was a really bad idea, and now it's in your template!

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I can change my mind, can't I? My reason for doing so is this: when you suggested it I didn't like it because I knew one of the things that sold the game to non-Star Wars fans was the fact you can use Jedi. But I realised that reducing Jedi to a single civ still allows you to use Jedi, as long as you play as the Republic. In fact technically I've made it so you can use Jedi no matter what civ you use because I've got Jedi Heroes.

 

So in conclusion, when you suggested it I saw it as reducing the Jedi which would not sell as well. But Jedi are still present, and I've made every civ has at least one Jedi unit, so it can work and I was mistaken. I apologise.

[Darth Windu]

Of course you can change your mind, i just find it odd that all of my idea's that everyone on the board objected to are now popular...

 

My template is similar in terms of Jedi, except that you can only build Padawan's, who then advance to Knight's by destroying enemy units. Also, the only civ in my template not to have a Jedi is the Confederacy, but then they have Grievous.

 

BTW looking at your template, i noticed that in explaining the cost of units, you still have 'food' and 'carbon' listed as resources.

[DarthMuffin]

Wow, I'm impressed...

 

Removing Jedi for all but the Republic is a really good idea (I was afraid to bring it though) and reducing the civ number to 5 is superb. I'll read the complete design later, but so far it looks good

 

Edit : Ok, I started to read it, and it's really good. I like the way you gave the abilities to the heroes. Looks good so far...

[Admiral Vostok]

BTW looking at your template, i noticed that in explaining the cost of units, you still have 'food' and 'carbon' listed as resources.

I did? Whoops, whereabouts is that exactly?

[saberhagen]

I could have sworn that I once suggested that only the Republic should have jedi and that everyone said it was a bad idea. Maybe it's happened to all of us at various times, who knows?

[lukeiamyourdad]

I don't like it, but since every civ gets a Jedi unit, I'll overlook it.

 

I've started reading last night but didn't have time to post. I'm only at the Overview part. So far so good!

[FroZticles]

I hate it, vostok you want 95% realism and 5% gameplay it isnt gonna work.

[Sithmaster_821]

I didnt read it, and probably wont (no offense Vostok, I probably would never have read my own), but I didn't like the addition of powers and the like. Originality is key. I also have a personal objection to heros (only in AoM do they have a point because they are specificallly designed to counter something). I think it would be better if all the other civs could only build 2-3 jedi, and the reps could build as many as they wanted, but theirs would be weaker.

[DarthMuffin]

I'm done reading it

 

And I like it

 

(but it looks like I'm the only one...)

[Admiral Vostok]

Froz: did you read it? If so please elaborate on bits that have no gameplay.

 

Sith: Well I hate putting artificial limits on units like Jedi, it is just messy when it can be worked out properly. My reason for heroes is quite simple: characters are central to Star Wars, so therefore a Star Wars game should include characters. Star Wars is more than just cool infantry and vehicles battling it out, and so should a Star Wars game be. But please take the time to have a proper read of it Sith, I'd be very interested in what you have to say.

[FroZticles]

K I'll try to find the issues which annoy me the most

 

Basics

 

1. Heroes have no place getting shot down on the battlefield

 

2.Your template seems to change very time you play a new game...

 

3. What weapons require gas to build? Stealth resource does not support gameplay, gas is only used in poisons, medical packs, and some aircraft but most run on power in the SW universe.

 

 

4. In the metal description, you didn't say it makes weapons, unless you plan to make your weapons out of credits and gas?

 

5. Every civ should have a shield generator of some kind.

 

6. You were against rocket troops a few onths ago now every civ have one. Generals has really gotten to you.

 

7.Civs only build 1 building of power supply and thats all they have to do all game?

 

 

Republic

 

1. The hero abilities have really chessy names there nothing more than a 1 liner from the movie....

 

2. Why does Obi-Wan shut down power, Jedi are far beyond that ability

 

3. Do not like the dropship I have yet to see one construct a building.

 

4. Why do the prefabs stack on top? Is there a point besides "room saving"

 

5. The republic aircraft is not strong but carries there best unit.....

 

6. The beacon seems to much like C&C, The US had the same thing in generals....

 

Empire[b/]

 

1. The Star Destroyer special attack if our as pure as you say that could wipe out an entire base in minutes.

 

2. Worker seems over the top

 

3. For a huge Empire they seem really empty compared to a civ like the Republic

 

Naboo

 

1. Do not like the name People of Naboo at all

 

2. Your idea with these is very obvious to see you slapped 2 civs together

 

3. Giving them a militia straight off is a bad idea it will be used to kill workers in the 1st minute of starting when they have no way to counter it.

 

4. What is the royal defender? a turrent? a garrison?

 

5. Smugglers just ride off and mysteriously find credits from where?

 

6. Bothans can transform why not just let them turn into a stormtrooper and spy like that instead of stealth? Zam Wessel was a bothan.

 

Confeds

 

1. Why isn't the battle droid with the Trade Fed factory?

 

2. Shouldnt military heroes be non-jedi?

[Darth Windu]

FroZ- just thought i'd point out that Zam Wessel is NOT a Bothan

[FroZticles]

Sorry I didn't check it up just took a wild guess, in one of the shots she kinda looks like one. Windu how long do you spend at starwars.com databank?

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, thanks for the detailed feedback Froz, here goes...

 

Basics

 

1. This is a realism issue, which you thought I had too much of. It is much more fun for gameplay to include heroes, plus because the characters are so important in the movie any Purist will agree they deserve a place in a game.

 

2. This is true, and while the new games I play influence my thinking I don't believe they are exact copies, though I will admit some elements to the design are more obvious copies. Though still this point has nothing to do with realism...

 

3. I believe Tibanna gas is used in the manufacture of laser weaponry. Again though you're pointing out a problem with my not having enough realism.

 

4. No I didn't, but that doesn't mean it isn't. I merely stated the main thing it was used for (vehicles). Again related to you wanting more realism...

 

5. This point is evidence you didn't read the whole thing.

 

6. Not just Generals, everyone else on the forum. Before you were here we had a big debate about this, and everyone thought my idea of anti-air sucked. Well I came to realise it did. You'll note though that my anti-air infantry are far more diverse than Generals.

 

7. Nope, you read wrong.

 

Republic

 

1. That's the point, they are supposed to be lines from the movies. They serve as much better names than anything else.

 

2. This is a reference to A New Hope where he shuts down the tractor beam. Looking at Obi-Wan in both AotC and ANH, it seems he's best at infiltration missions, so I wanted his power to reflect that.

 

3. Well we didn't see any buildings constructed on the battlefield did we? It's an extrapolation of course, but I thought it would look especially characterful for the Republic to have all their stuff dropped in.

 

4. Making them unique and more Coruscant-like.

 

5. That's right.

 

6. Yes it's true, but it works so well for the Republic.

 

Empire

 

1. Again this is an issue with you not thinking there is enough realism. Obviously for reasons of gameplay we can't have it do that. And since we never actually see a Star Destroyer bombard, it isn't a question of Purism.

 

2. I guess you mean the Builder. It's not much different from the dozers in Generals actually.

 

3. Well what can I say, that's all the units we see in the movies, plus some.

 

Naboo

 

1. Well think of a better one for me then.

 

2. It was meant to be. Glad it worked as I wanted.

 

3. Actually the Kaadu Rider they get at the start has no attack, but is upgraded to have one later in the game.

 

4. Yes, a turret.

 

5. I think this is a point for the Rebels, but anyway they fly off the map, obviously to a different planet or something.

 

6. Again a point for the Rebels. Bothans can't transform, Zam Wessel was a Clawdite.

 

Separatists

 

1. Because all Battle Droids are made by the Techno Union, not the Trade Federation.

 

2. They are. General Grievous is not a Jedi, he's a droid who has slain many Jedi and collected their lightsabers. And before you cry about Purism, it has been confirmed Grievous is a major character in Episode III.

 

 

So it seems while you think I've got 95% realism, it seems like many of your points were asking for more. And while you think I've only got 5% gameplay, a few of the issues you have are because I chose gameplay over realism. You are most confusing, Froz.

[Sithmaster_821]

Windu how long do you spend at starwars.com databank?

That was classic.

[Darth Windu]

I know enough about EU to know that Wessel isn't/wasn't a Bothan.

 

Getting back to Vostok's idea, having read most of it, my main concerns are-

 

Overview-

1. Shoddy power names - come on Vostok, like FroZ said, one-liners just sound terrible

 

2. I really dont like the concept of gas. Apart from it being irrelevant, you say that to show it normally would clutter up the screen - well what do you think the collectors are going to do?

 

3. Advancing - WHY oh why did you put tech levels in? This is probably THE worst thing about your template.

 

4. On the overview page is where Carbon and Food make their apprearence under 'cost'

 

Unit Classes-

5. Why did you have to put turning in? One of the worst, if not THE worst, feature of AoE and AoK hurts gameplay and is completely unrealistic

 

6. Political and Military heroes are unnecessary, this isnt 'Star Wars: Generals'

 

7. Aircraft shouldn't hover in mid-air. This is not only unrealistic, but it also means that all aircraft can never be hit by ground fire

 

Galactic Empire-

8. Cargo Skiff's and Slaves? Sure this isnt the Hutt Cartel? Seriously though, this doesnt feel like the Empire that everyone knows and loves

 

9. Specialist Stormtroopers aren't necessary, Stormies just get changed

 

10. Mounted Stormtrooper? Can't see how this will work, since the Empire is mech-heavy and these were only used because AT-AT's and AT-ST's would sink into the sand

 

Otherwise, i dont have complaints, and i must say i LOVE your unique building

 

Galactic Republic-

11. Like FroZ, i dont like your dropship concept, it seems a bit forced to me

 

12. Same with 'beacons' - they didnt use them and shouldn't need them

 

13. So the ONLY Republic defensive building is a garissoned Command Center? Must say, one of your worst ideas

 

14. Don't like the negotiations hall, it's just more pop slots that are taken up by non-combat units

 

Naboo-

15. Well, i dont think they should be in as a playable civ, so i really dont have much to say

 

Rebellion-

16. I've already said that i dont like the concept of building trenches - and i still dont

 

17. I hate the concept of closing the X and B-wing's wings. It worked in RS2&3, but here it just means more annoying micro

 

Seperatists-

18. I really cant see the Seperatists using Geonosians weapons rather than their own, but still...

 

19. Again, one of your worst ideas in the template, the concept of different buildings to produce the seperate entities units. It is abysmal and, while good for realism, is shocking for gameplay

[FroZticles]

1. I agree with windu about the buildings with confed issue. I was shocked to see the hailfire droid in the same building as a worker.

 

2. Greivous is a non-humanoid droid, and the list goes on. He may not be a Jedi, but to hunt them like he does, he is definately attuned to the force one way or another. I aready knew he was making a debut, in Episode 3 otherwise I would have said something when it sent into Windu's template.

 

3. Naboo does not fit in with these titan civs.

[Admiral Vostok]

On Windu's points:

 

1. One liners are cool, because they're from the movies! What are you people on about? If you can suggest better names I'm ready to hear them.

 

2. Yeah the collectors will clutter it up, but if there's a gas cloud that isn't being mined you don't want it getting in the way of a battle. If it's already being mined this isn't an issue. I like it because we haven't seen anything like it in an RTS game, it's a - shock! - original idea.

 

3. Tech Levels help to limit the rate at which you can gain access to the most powerful units. Most games have them, even your beloved RoN - in case you hasn't noticed the researching at the Library is thinly disguised tech levels.

 

4. Thanks, shall fix it.

 

5. Turning is an important part of the Sith. Every single Sith Lord we've seen on screen tries to do it (except Maul, but he doesn't have much dialogue). Darth Vader tries to turn Luke at Cloud City, the Emperor tries to turn Luke in the Death Star Throne Room, and Dooku tries to turn Obi-Wan while he's held prisoner. So I don't see what's so unrealistic about it.

 

6. I wanted them in so I can include Han, Leia, Padme, and all the other important people who aren't as powerful as Jedi.

 

7. Yeah I might change that. I just don't like them returning to a base all the time, it doesn't seem very Star Warsy.

 

8. Well the Cargo Skiffs won't look the same, but they will be skiffs that carry cargo... so why call them something else? And slavery was legal under the Empire, so it seems appropriate. Feels like the Empire I know and love.

 

9. That's true but I wanted more units for the Empire, so it seemed logical.

 

10. Well I wanted to include every unit from the movies, why leave anything out?

 

11. How is the dropship, a unit we actually see in the movies, more forced than anything else would be? Having Dexter's waitress droid as the Republic worker in SWGB, now that was forced. If the dropship drops in heavy vehicles, it makes sense it would also drop in heavy equipment, which could include supplies and be extrapolated to buildings.

 

12. I think it suits them.

 

13. It's not a Command Centre, it's a Forward Command Centre, which operates kind of like a bunker.

 

14. Well we all know how you feel about non-combat units. They need a trader like everyone else.

 

15. Oookay

 

16. Why the hell not? They've got them in the movies. And they aren't foxholes like your idea, they're proper trenched.

 

17. Not really. I think it would be quite useful. You're being attacked on the other side of the screen, you select your X-Wings and hit the S-Foils hotkey, zoom them to the conflict, hit the S-Foils hotkey, and there you have it. Very useful, and very realistic.

 

18. Geonosian weapons are their own.

 

19. No it isn't. Don't assume all units are buildable as soon as the building is built, that's why I've got Tech Levels. Also I'll have limitations like you need a second type of building before you can build something (like Mounted Troopers needing the Animal Nursery). It's a nice little something different for the Separatists, rather than have everyone with boring generic buildings.

[Darth Windu]

1. Yeah, but as a power name they sound really, really, really bad

 

2. Yes, it is original, but i dont think it'll work. Gas in the ground would be a better idea

 

3. They do indeed, but there are better ways to do it. In my template, a player has to invest in Military Research which will then give out access to new units and technologies at a rate defined by the amount of resources being channelled into this research. It has the same effect of denying units like the AT-AT early on, but gets rid of unrealistic and micro-heavy tech levels

 

5. Indeed, but the majority of the turning we will be seeing is on standard battlefield units, not other heroes. That is one of the reasons i gave Vader the ability to drain enemy units to boost his own health rather than the ability to turn units

 

6. They still can be included, i actually have a really good idea for a Republic campaign mission that involves Padme. The only difference is that you can't build heroes

 

8. Where in the films does tghe Empire have slavery? This is why i have the AT-CV, and also using the Imperial Shuttle for resources would be far better than a Skiff. It is more realistic

 

9. But still doesnt make sense...

 

10. Because they don't belong there. Actually, what you could do is make an art change, so that on Desert worlds, the AT-PT changes to the Dewback Trooper

 

11. That is the reason i used the AT-CV, it just seems better to me. Also, you have to realise that the Dropship probably couldnt carry buildings, they would be too heavy and/or too big

 

12. I disagree. Where were the beacons on Geonosis? All you do is have the 're-inforcement' ability ready and then specify where they will be dropped off - simple

 

13. So as i said, the ONLY republic defensive structure has to be garissoned to work? Talk about unbalanced...

 

14. Why? The trader is an unnecessary unit that simply wastes pop slots

 

16. Because they are too micro-intensive, i prefer my idea much more

 

17. Okay then, make it automatic. Otherwise, players simply wont use it or will be disadvantaged by it

 

18. So why are the Confederacy using them for base defence?

 

19. That's not my complaint. I dont like this concept because it forces players to search through 3 or 4 different buildings to produce, for example, different mechs. It is too complicated. Why do you think there are generally one mech building, one infantry building etc in other RTS'?

[Admiral Vostok]

1. I couldn't disagree more. They are far better than any other name.

 

2. Gas in the ground is not Star Warsy. I'm going for a game that feels like Star Wars, not StarCraft.

 

3. So you're saying my Classification approach, which requires a total of two uprades, is more micro than your Military research, which requires several more? Your world's logic does not represent our own.

 

5. Never the less, turning is still an ability, more so than Vader sucking health from others.

 

6. Well I wanted to include them in multiplayer, which is what keeps a game alive. This is the best way to do so.

 

8. C-3PO makes a comment that if captured they'll be sent to work in the spice mines of Kessel. Since it would hardly be normal for a protocol droid and an astromech droid to become miners, I assume this is said because the Empire turns those the capture into slaves. The EU quite naturally supports this. You may notice I have a Construction Droid for building and the Cargo Skiff for gathering, all the Slave really does is mine. However I do agree the Imperial Shuttle is better than a Cargo Skiff, so I'll make the necessary changes there. But the Slave is staying, because we need a Miner.

 

9. Makes sense to me. For example, on Endor there were Stormtroopers and Scout Troopers fighting side by side. So it is perfectly normal.

 

10. You must be joking. There is no way the AT-PT and a Dewback-riding Stormtrooper would be anything alike stats wise. The Mounted Stormtrooper is a unit from the movies, so it's going in the game.

 

11. Hardly. If it can carry an AT-TE, which is the size of a building, I don't see why an actual building would be a stretch. They would of course be specially transportable buildings, made light-weight and perhaps even folding up to transport. An AT-CV like unit is more suitable for the Empire I think.

 

12. No, you misunderstand. The reinforcements aren't dropped at the Beacon, the Beacon just gives you access to the Reinforcement ability, which you can use anywhere.

 

13. Well perhaps I'll change it so it has an attack, and is garrison-able.

 

14. Traders aren't unnecessary. They are necessary for trade.

 

16. Well your idea is not only unrealistic, it is far more micro-intensive than mine. Taking ideas from a game that are suitable is one thing, but taking an unsuitable idea from a game is something else entirely.

 

17. It shouldn't be automatic, because in my plan if Air units fly over enemy ground units while in transit they get a few shots off at them. You wouldn't be able to do this with closed s-foils. However if a unit is attacked while in flight mode, they'll automatically open s-foils to engage the enemy.

 

18. Why shouldn't they?

 

19. Well it worked for WarCraft III, I don't see why it couldn't here. It adds a lot of character, adds more uniqueness and adds reality.

 

 

EDIT: I've now made the following changes:

- Fixed the references to Food and Carbon in the Overview.

- Given the Republic Forward Command Center an attack.

- Changed the Imperial Resource Collector to the Imperial Shuttle.

Also, I've given a new ability to Imperial buildings to make the Empire more interesting. Read about it under Imperial Defensive Buildings.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I disagree. Keep the Republic forward command center the way it was. StarCraft's Terran bunker anyone?

It was by far the best defensive structure in the game it wasn't unbalanced at all.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I actually had the Terran bunker in mind when thinking of it, as well as the Chinese bunker from Generals. However both those civs also have a second defensive building too. So I just added a missile attack to the Forward Command Centre.

 

Speaking of Republic rockets, what do people think of my way of upgrading Clone Troopers to carry missile packs based on Jango's as their anti-air trooper?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Well, personally, it sounds weird. I always pictured Jango's jetpack as some kind of unique weapon or at least a special commando weapon.

 

Forward Command Center- Doesn't that kill it's purpose of being a bunker? Bunkers require people to be inside. That's what it should be. Perhaps change it so that all other civ's turrets need to be manned before being used.