Admiral Vostok's revised SWRTS design

[Darth Windu]

Vostok-

2. The point im trying to make here is that it's unpractical. It is original, and well done for coming up with it, but it will interfere with seeing your units.

 

3. Yes, because in my system the player sets a percentage of their credits to invest in that research, and so they dont have to go back to that building to actually get the upgrades and new units. Basically, it's like you are giving credits to weapons scientists who then come up with new and improved gear. As you can see, it is more realistic and better for gameplay to old tech levels

 

6. But by putting them in multi-player you destroy the concept of the game. Ask yourself why people will be fighting in multi-player. Will it be to produce heroes like Luke, Padme, Vader etc or will it be to see huge armies collide in battle? There are a million and one game out there centered on heroes, this one should concentrate on large battles

 

8. We all know C-3PO's habit of over-exadurating, and besides, it could be that only droids are used as slaves

 

9. The scout-troopers are still in the game on the speeder bikes. The Snowtroopers and Sandtroopers are just Stormies in different gear

 

10. It was an idea - i didnt say it was a GOOD idea.

 

11. But did you see HOW it carried the AT-TE? It is specifically designed to carry battlefield units into battle, not doing building drops

 

14. They are unnecessary. With my template, you build a Spaceport and so neutral cargo ships come in, land at your spaceport and are taxed, eat food etc which gains you credits. WOW that didnt need a useless pop-wasting unit

 

16. Hardly, instead of having to build itty-bitty bits of trenches at a time, my Rebels simply deploy into their own trenches with the click of a button, whereas your have to build the trench (tedious) then garisson it

 

17. Which brings us back to the fact that it doesnt belong in the game...

 

18. Why would they? The Confed's would use blasters, not Geonosian weapons

 

19. It adds a lot of confusion, heaps more micr-management and people not playing as the confed's

 

 

Also, with the Clone Trooper getting an AA upgrade, i don't like it. It makes their infantry far too powerful, and it also unrealistic (Jango wasnt holding an Assault Rifle when he was wearing his jetpack...)

[lukeiamyourdad]

Sorry. I won't post every comment I make in a single post since I read it progressively.

 

Just finished Empire, Rebels and Naboo/Gungans.

I'm fine with most of it. Although...

 

Overall:

 

1. Why give everyone a missile trooper? It's ok for some of them but overall it kind of feels forced.

 

Empire:

 

2. The AT-AT can carry mechs?! I don't think an AT-ST will fit properly inside an AT-AT. It may be large but not THAT large.

 

3. Instead of an unrealistic flame attack, why don't you give the mounties pikes?

 

Rebels:

 

4. No comment:D

 

Naboo/Gungan

 

5. The swamp gives the defender too much of an advantaged. Maybe a defense bonus but not stealth.

 

6. Same thing for the Sacred Place. Its ability is ok, depending on the number of units affected by the stealth field. However, remove its population capacity. I know it's there for realism, but it's a roacher's heaven.

[FroZticles]

I agree with all of luke said except, the person on the mount controls the weapon they are equipped with so its not unrealistic.

 

Your template vostok use to be decent, so many things are going wrong the more you change it I think you should start all over.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu:

 

2. Well I think the fact it is invisible unless a detector is nearby will help solve that, and if resource gatherers are near it (making it visible) it won't matter because most likely the battle will be centering on the gatherers. I don't intend them to be huge clouds covering the battlefield, so I think they should be okay. Keep in mind to that space taken up by gas would be taken up by a different resource anyway.

 

3. Yes, that is slightly more realistic, but is more micro so I prefer the simple tech level approach, like most games do.

 

6. There are plenty of other games giving you huge battles too. Star Wars is mostly about the characters, not the battles, so the characters should at least play a part.

 

8. True, but why give the Empire a droid like everyone else when we can give them slaves? Don't forget Chewbacca was a slave once.

 

9. But on forest maps, these Specialist Stormtroopers will appear as Scout Troopers. It's not like the Empire has too many units as is.

 

11. The only military building of the Republic we've seen is the Froward Command Centre, although we haven't seen much of it. Now do you think that was constructed on the battlefield or dropped in via dropship? Since we haven't seen any other buildings, there's no way of knowing whether the dropship is designed to carry them as well.

 

14. No, you're right, it didn't. It also didn't require any thinking at all. Of course you're going to build it if you get credits for free. The Trader makes you think "would I rather have the pop slot or some credits coming in?" Is there any way to disrupt your trade routes? Let's put a bit of strategy in your RTS, Windu.

 

16. My idea is no more tedious than building a wall then garrisoning it. Sure a little more thinking required than yours, but at least mine is realistic and won't end up looking messy with Troopers in foxholes all over the place. And mine is original.

 

17. I thought we were making a Star Wars game here? If so, it certainly does belong.

 

18. But everyone else used blasters too. Giving the Separatists a Sonic Weaponry defence, which they would have access to because the Geonosians are part of the Confederacy, makes them a bit more unique than all the other blaster-using civs.

 

19. No it doesn't. It didn't in WarCraft III and it won't here.

 

Luke's Dad:

 

1. Well the fact it feels forced is why I didn't put them in originally, but everyone hated my Troopers-shooting-Air idea so much I relented. Giving the Clone Troopers the rocket packs was meant to make it feel less forced.

 

2. According to EU, AT-ATs can carry AT-STs.

 

3. I don't think a flame attack is too unrealistic. Sure we didn't see it used, but if you think about what the mounted Stormtrooper looked like, he had a big bulky back pack, with a long gun-like weapon. It could quite concievably be a flamer. If it was just a pike it doesn't explain the huge pack.

 

5. Yeah you're right. Making them stealth doesn't really suit them either, now I think about it. Just a defense bonus then.

 

6. Okay, maybe I'll just make it so the civilian units can use it as a garrison too, like with the Houses, but no military units can garrison.

 

Froz:

 

At which point did you think it was decent? Before I did my revise, or before I tweaked it after the revise?

[Darth Windu]

Vostok -

 

6. 'Obi-Wan', 'Jedi Power Battles', 'JK2', 'JK3', 'Dark Forces', 'Republic Commando', 'Clone Wars', 'Rouge Squadron', 'Rogue Leader', 'Rebel Strike' etc There are been so very many character based games that there is no need to turn an RTS into one as well. You forget, Vostok, that the whole point of an RTS is the control of large armies, not individuals. If you want to control single people, go any play the games i have listed above. Where though, do you go to play with huge armies? SWGB and 'Force Commander' - wow, great choices there.

Generals are good for RTS', but only for the single-player game, and they should not be battle or war-winning weapons by themselves. We want this RTS to re-create battles from the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War, not to re-hash character-based games on a different level.

 

8. Really? Please tell me exactly where, in the films, it states that Chewbacca was a slave.

 

16. Why the hell would you build a wall and then put people in it???

 

To be blunt, i have to agree with FroZ that your idea has actually gotten worse. There are some good concepts, but your main weaknesses are simply taking from other games (like the Republic defensive building) and trying to turn an RTS into a character-based game.

I would strongly suggest just scraping this and coming up with something new because, really, this is not up to your usual standard.

 

On a side note, i hearby remove you from your position as 'Lord of the Purists'. Claiming that Chewbacca was a slave, and that AT-ST's fit inside AT-AT's is going too far.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The fact that Chewbacca was a slave makes sense, an AT-AT carrying an AT-ST does not.

 

I would suggest you(Windu) not to blame VOstok for taking concepts from other games. You were the first to be flame because of that.

 

 

In responses to Windu's comments(I know they're not directed to me but I had to add something):

 

6. Where do we see uber heroes in Vostok's templates? But then what, where do we see in the movies, heroes NOT taking part in huge battles?

Like always, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You claim you want to recreate the battles from the Clone and Galactic Civil Wars but you don't want the heroes to be in?

Does General Kenobi ring a bell? And what about Commander Skywalker? Or General Calrissian? But then what there's also General Solo, Grievious, Windu...

Those are movie characters who participated in several battles of both wars.

 

8. Tell me where in the films it states that Chewbacca isn't a slave?

 

16. Why the hell did they dig those trenches in ESB?!

 

Vostok:

 

6. Maybe just remove its stealth capabilities. Even with only civilians, it's a roacher's heaven. Either its stealth or its population.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well, Luke's Dad did all my rebuttal for me. Thanks.

 

I might just add a bit more though:

 

6. My game is not "character-based". It merely includes characters. You don't play the game for the characters: their powers don't turn the tide of war at all, unlike WarCraft 3. You play the game for the large battles, as you said, but in order to properly recreate such battles characters must be included.

 

8. While it doesn't explicitely state Chewbacca is a slave, the fact he was is, unlike other EU, written by George Lucas. George Lucas wrote the background to Han and Chewie's relationship, which included Han rescuing Chewie from slavery. So my Purity is still intact.

 

16. I didn't say they build a wall, I said it's like building a wall. Trenches are long and straight, like walls. What you have is foxholes, not trenches. We saw no fowholes in Star Wars, but we did see trenches.

 

However, you are correct that I have taken too much from other games this time around. It came about because I've recently been added to the staff of Star Wars: Imperial Assault, the Star Wars mod for Generals. So my thinking has been influenced a lot by that and I guess it was too hard to escape the Generals mind set. I shall attempt to redo the design once more.

 

With respect to my Purism, I guess an AT-ST wouldn't fit inside an AT-AT. I actually don't know where I got that idea from, it actually isn't from EU... so thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. I'll just take my crown back now...

 

Luke's Dad: Perhaps I could make it so that once all Government Centres are destroyed, the Sacred Place loses it's stealth and can no longer garrison units.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok -

My main gripe with your template is that you seem to be taking a lot of concepts from other games, as have i, but you seem to be taking really bad ideas, like giving the Republic only one defence building.

 

In addition, a lot of the units in your concept seem forced to me. Imperial slaves, Specialist Stormtroopers, Tauntaun's with Flame Throwers (Roast Tauntaun anyone?), Imperial Dewback Troopers etc. You dont have to add things from the films if they dont make sense, like the Dewback Trooper.

 

Also, with your Heroes, my point stands. This game is about the big battles, not the few people who are the focus of the films. This game should be driven by the desire for huge, epic battles between Clones and Droids, not seeing Obi-Wan and Dooku fight.

 

Finally, with Chewbacca, if you could give me a link to where Lucas says Chewy is a slave, i'd appreciate it, until then it's just EU.

 

As i said before, stop trying to force every unit from the films into the game, and you also need to realise that Original concepts dont necessarily mean good concepts, and that diversity (ie Confed's geonosians cannons) is not necessarily a good thing.

[Admiral Vostok]

Why can't we have both the Epic Battles between Clones and Droids (and presumably normal humans too for the Empire and Republic) and the fights between characters? I've designed my heroes is ways so that they will contribute to the big battle feeling as a whole: if you focus on your heroes you will lose, but if you put a hero in amongst you huge army, you'll do well.

 

I've explained why Slaves and Specialist Stormtroopers aren't forced. Your right about the Tauntaun with a flamer, I forgot about that, I shall change it. And perhaps I should think of a better role for the Dewback, because you're right in that it isn't a very combat-oriented unit.

 

So I guess it's back to the drawing board. But there are two things definitely staying:

1. My resource system. I like it, very original, very Star Warsy. The gas could be a bit weird, but I'm confident it could work just as well as any other resource I could put in there.

2. My Hero system. I may change some of the powers as I see fit, but on the whole a Star Wars game needs characters, it doesn't matter that it is an RTS.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok-

The problem i have with Heroes and epic battles, is that in the battles, you are controlling a lot of units and are really controlling groups instead of the individual units, whereas with Heroes, they need a lot of micromanagement, so i just cant see them going together well.

 

Of course, i have Officer's in my template, but their bonus' are automatic (no micro required!) so they doesnt make any difference. I also have heroes, but they only appear in single-player and scenario's, but again, their powers are automatic. I probably wouldnt have as much of a problem with your heroes but for the number you have. I really think that three unique heroes per side is excessive.

 

As for the points you raised-

1. It is very original, and is somewhat starwarsy, i just dont think that it's practical

2. I know that, which is why i havea few Heroes and officers in my template, i just think you've gone overboard with the concept

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I wanted to avoid micro-management for heroes as much as possible, because I agree with you on that aspect. As such, my Heroes have pretty straight-forward abilities, which require a minimum of micro. If I was to actually build this I'd use shortcuts like F1 selects Jedi Hero, F2 selects Military Hero and F3 selects Political Hero.

 

The only hero who does require some micro is the Jedi Hero. This is because I intend him to be used as more of an individual, not part of the army.

 

Now that I think about it though, I suppose I could reduce micro even more. I'll do a review of the micro required for heroes when I redo the design. I might change it so heroes have a single generic power and a single unique power. The generic power will probably be an aura that operates continuously but the unique power might be something different. Or perhaps you could set an option like in WarCraft III where the hero will perform abilities automatically? This might work best because special abilities work automatically in AoM as well.

[FroZticles]

It starting to get a RPS feel......

 

Any more microing for heroes and it will be one. And calling them heroes just adds to the micro i ment characters/units

[Admiral Vostok]

There is no way this is anything like an RPS. I suggest you learn what an RPS is.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well, I've altered things only very slightly, but I think it improves things a lot.

 

1. I removed a power each from the Military and Political Heroes. Now they only have a generic power, which is operates constantly in an aura (so needs no micro at all) and a unique power which is activatable.

 

The Jedi and Sith keep their powers the same, because they should be used like characters in an RPS, although they are not like RPS characters in their power or operation.

 

Description of Heroes

 

2. I got rid of the "Special Attacks" because they were obvious rip-offs of the Generals superweapons. However, I wanted something that matched the superweapons and Generals Powers from C&C:G and the God Powers from AoM. So I came up with a new idea: Advanced Tactics.

 

Basically with Advanced Tactics you can make your faction focus on a particular strength while neglecting other areas. There are both advantages and disadvantages to using Advanced Tactics, so they balance out. Check them out and let me know what you think. I should mention I am not wed to what actually happens with the Advanced Tactics; if you have a better idea then I'm willing to hear it.

 

Overview of Advanced Tactics

Galactic Empire Advanced Tactics

Galactic Republic Advanced Tactics

People of Naboo Advanced Tactics

Rebel Alliance Advanced Tactics

Separatist Movement Advanced Tactics

 

3. I've expanded on Windu's idea and introduced my own minor civilisations that can be used in multiplayer games.

 

Overview of Minor Civilisations

Full Descriptions of Minor Civilisations

[lukeiamyourdad]

Hmmm...

 

I don't really like the advanced tactics. They seem really forced into the template.

Especially the Rebel ones but the Naboo ones are also crazily unbalanced. You seem to have two civs relying only on stealth. I know it's realistic but balance should always be a factor.

Most of them are also unnecessary. There's not even a point in using them really. Keeping it the regular way seems more logical.

 

We all know that a combine force of mechs, infantry and aircrafts should always prevail yet here, you're almost forced to choose between certain classes.

[Admiral Vostok]

Remember you don't have to chose an Advanced Tactic.

 

As I said they're really there as an answer to Generals Powers and God Powers. I'm open to suggestion as to how to implement them better, but if you really think there is no hope for them I'll give them up.

[FroZticles]

Your still walking through the Generals backwater. Its like the factions of Zero Hour where you choose a type of General and they are advanced one way and weak in others. You have just modified it.

 

Even if I kind of liked the idea they are not good tactics. I hope you realise giving Rebel and Naboo troops stealth is a pain in the a***. You got cheap stealth troops hiding all over the map.

 

Oh and with all those things where is the balance....

 

Still kept those chessy one liners I see.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay fine, I'll get rid of the Advanced Tactics. Perhaps I'll do a bit of thinking as to what unique techs each faction gets.

 

And of course I'm keeping the one-liners. They are by far the most interesting and characterful way to describe a power.