Saber Control Methods

[Gotaiken]

Hello, this thread will be where you express your ideas around how you feel the saber should be controlled, ie. mouse sabering, as the maker of this thread I will start.

[Kurgan]

"Mouse sabering" (as you call it) is a very popular idea with the masses.

 

However, most of them haven't seen it applied practically in an online game.

 

I have.

 

There is a game called "Die By the Sword" which came out some years ago (shortly after

 

the first Jedi Knight). You had two options: "normal mode" which let you press various

 

keys for various types of swings (the game was all about sword fighting and melee

 

battles btw), the other was called "VSIM" and it let you move the mouse and wherever you

 

moved your mouse, your sword went that way.

 

Cool huh?

 

But, sadly, this is what it leads to...

 

In actual battles online, people quickly realized that to win a battle, you could just

 

wiggle the mouse back and forth as fast as you could and that would simply beat down

 

your opponent.

 

So it was just a mouse-mashing-fest with no real skill involved, except the person who's

 

wrist gave out first would lose.

 

Additionally, it was tricky to get used to the controls, since you had to "turn" with

 

the keys as well as move around, since your mouse controlled only your weapon.

 

 

Suffice to say, this system isn't all its cracked up to be.

 

 

 

Another idea that was put forth was in the (now Xbox only) game Obi-Wan. This had the

 

"glyph" system.

 

I never played the final version of the game, since I (like so many others) was so put

 

off by the long delays and the cancellation of the PC version (then we forgot all about

 

it because of the far superior Jedi Outcast), but I'm told that basically you had two

 

attacks. One was you press the attack button and you swing, just like in JK1. The second

 

button was a "glyph" button. You held it down and moved the mouse around (or I suppose

 

one of the analog sticks on the Xbox controller as it ended up) and then released it

 

when you were ready. This let you do all sorts of moves, since each move was keyed to a

 

"tracing" move.

 

Again I never actually tried it to see if this was any good or not, but another game

 

that used "glyph" type stuff in controls was Black & White. Of course this was only for

 

certain commands, not for everything.

 

The part about having it as a seperate button made it so that you could still move and

 

look around without interrupting the action.

 

In the PC version the problem was discussed (since you don't have two analog controls on

 

a PC usually) that while you held down the "glyph attack button" you were moving the

 

mouse around and you couldn't "look" while doing this (or I suppose "turn" with the

 

arrow keys much slower). So aiming would be a major problem.. how do you line up an

 

attack if you can't aim? In the meantime your opponent is running all over the place....

 

 

The other popular idea is the "Block Button" which seems to have run its course with

 

this project (IIRC) in favor of auto dodging.

 

 

Me, I don't have a problem with the current saber system as is in JA 1.01 MP, except

 

that like a lot of people, I wouldn't mind seeing greater accuracy with collisions and

 

blocking (ie: so fewer occurances of the "I hit you but the saber passed through and did

 

no damage" glitches that people report seeing so often).

 

 

The big thing to keep in mind is how this will work in MP.

 

In SP you can do just about anything you want (well maybe not anything, because the SDK

 

is not available for SP), but in MP you have to factor in lag and balance. This

 

nullifies a lot of the "cool" ideas some people have unfortunately.

[Dbl90]

Written with no sleep...forgive any typos

 

Personally I truly dislike the JA combat system because it baisicly amounts to spamming cheap and ugly looking combosand spinning around in circles hoping to score mutliple hits. This adds to a really odd and akward experiance, but is the way things are. Raven seems to like DFA's and Kata's because the power of them has not been modified in any update...with that said...

 

I like the idea of having a more free form attack such as "Mouse Sabering" but the problem Kurgan brings is a serious one. The method I suggest may be slightly work intensive and maybe impossible but since I am not realy a skilled modder I wouldn't know.....

 

Rather than have a wild free for all sytem have one that revolves around attacks to certain area sectors. As in trying to cut head. Before the attack finishes one could "Change" lines (sectors) or feint.

 

A parry in the correct area would stop it...this probably would have an issue with lag....

 

But all this control could make the system very complicated and counter intuitive...so I provide another idea...

 

why not make the fighting system a bit more simplistic. ...

 

probably my favorite way to saber in any othe Jedi Knight games is the Mod for Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, SBX.

 

Using two combat buttons and directional keys SBX managed to make atleast two types of attacks to all sectors of the body and keep the system simplistic and intuitive. Maybe parry could me made into a third button. What matters most about a combat system is it isn't cheap and it feels natural. SBX managed to do this. Maybe it is best to add an alternate fire, change pary to a separate key, and make saber throw a seperate force power. I am not reccomending using the exact moves, but maybe a two button combat system. Finnaly, I dislike the slow style and maybe it needs to, or all the styles, rather than adjust speed or damage, have differant moves...this would be a large undertaking..but I think it is for the best...

 

I would like an explanation why the heavy style does more damage...you are holding a lightsaber, somthing that cuts through metal like a knife through hot butter why would you need strength to mortaly wound somone?

[Kurgan]

Fair enough, but as to your last comment, if we follow that rational then all saber hits should be equally lethal.

 

Think about it. ; )

 

 

As to SBX, you should provide some more information for folks that aren't familiar with it... (like links to the mod, videos, etc).

[Gotaiken]

With this saber control method there is no need for the lightsaber stance button, also this allows you guys to make the lightsaber stance button something else. All stances and attacks are readily available at anytime with this setup . It also shouldnt be that hard to implement gives maxium control with minimum effort, other than the buffer the tap attacks need its pretty good .

 

Single Saber

 

1. Tap attack (weak) = Blue stance attacks, for combo just tap attack plus the direction

 

Problem = gonna need to buffer the attacks so that you can set up the next attack during the current attack's animation or make it so that you dont have to perfectly time the taps in relation to the ending of the previous attack animation

 

2. Hold attack (medium) = Yellow stance attacks, there is no problem

 

3. Attack plus secondary attack (heavy) = Red stance attacks

 

Dual Saber

 

1. Tap attack (weak) = Blue stance attacks, problem same as single blue, btw the moment you use another type of attack the second saber will automatically switch on (if keshire can make it so that only the main hand done in the attack is shown then the blue stance wont be needed )

 

2. Hold attack (medium) = Normal Dual attacks

 

3. Attack plus secondary attack (heavy) = Spinning dual attacks

 

Staff

 

1. Tap attack (weak) = Yellow stance attack, dealt with like dual blue

 

2. Hold attack (medium) = Normal staff attack

 

3. Attack plus secondary attack (heavy) = Spinning staff attacks

 

All sabers

 

Tap Secondary attack before attack (plus direction) = Turning system

 

Tap Secondary attack during attack = Cancel attack

 

Hold Secondary attack during attack = Faking system

[Gotaiken]

btw if keshire can make those 7 animations we can make that the "blue" stance for the dual, and since staff has some extra animations left over we can make both the staff and dual have yellow and blue apart from the normal stance and give them a one sided stance altogether.

 

Since the staff can be animated with a onesided on either end using staff animations, and dual blue can use the tavion and desann stances we can defintely make it work. The only thing stopping that from happening is the duals needing 7 attacks . So it would be like this.

 

Dual

 

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Normal attack but with one saber

 

Hold Attack (medium) = Normal attack with both sabers

 

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = Dual Spinning attacks

 

Dual One Sided

 

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Tavion

 

Hold Attack (medium) = Tavion Spinning Attacks

 

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = Desann

 

Staff

 

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Second set of staff spinning attacks (for example downright to right, it is diffrent then right to right)

 

Hold Attack (medium) = Normal Staff attacks

 

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = First set of staff spinning attacks

 

Staff One Sided

 

Tap Attack (weak attack) = Staff one sided non dominant side attacking (saber will switch which side is active depending on which side is the non-dominant of the attack, for example in the overhead right attack the left side is the dominant attacking side while in the overhead left its the opposite, the side would automatically switch to the NON-dominant side since its the weak attack, depending on how your attacking, btw this would look amazing )

 

Hold Attack (medium) = Staff one sided Dominant side attacking (saber will switch which side is active depending on which side is the dominant of the attack, for example in the overhead right attack the left side is the dominant attacking side while in the overhead left its the opposite, the side would automatically switch depending on how your attacking, btw this would look amazing )

 

Attack plus Secondary (heavy) = Yellow or red whichever you prefer

[razorace]

First off, this doesn't really have anything to do with the topic you yourself started since it doesn't even mention mouse sabering.

 

Secondly, this would require a lot of work to impliment since JKA doesn't have a key buffer.

 

Finally, noone would like it since it would lag the controls. And you already know how much people have bitched when I reduced the saber animation speed by 25% - 50%.

[Gotaiken]

1. by saber control methods i meant anything changing how you control the saber, mouse saberering was an example.

 

2. I really dont see how people wouldnt like it, and i thought about it, you dont need to buffer anything just make it so that the weak attacks (the tap ones) dont have any cool down time so that you can combo into the next attack no matter what.

 

3. This system easily ups the amount of control that you have by A LOT , you can go into any attack at anytime in any order with ease, its really a win win situation , and im pretty sure that no one would whine about it. It wouldnt lag the controls you wouldnt need to lower the saber speeds. As long as the weak attacks have no cool down time which they shouldnt, you have a sound system .

[Dbl90]

Wow....a lot can of replies posted in less than 24 I will give the SBX link now....

 

http://sbx.newcollective.org/

[Gotaiken]

which idea are you refering to

[Dbl90]

The link is for the "SBX" method of using the two button controls.

 

On the other hand I would perfer the method I suggested first , not the "SBX". The perferred method involves changing lines or sectors..if it is possible....

 

May I ask....don't the DL-44 and the bowcaster, to quote razorace "have a key buffer."??

 

If not I think it would be a good thing to try and make a key buffer anyway. A key buffer could have many uses...

[Gotaiken]

yeah, and by using 2 buttons you can access all the saber styles without ever having to change, which adds more tactics strategy skill and control to the mod.

[PerfectJamie]

I really really think that there should be an ETM style lock on (I know, third time I requested this) and mabe the saber moves (animations) could be more accurate, such as when you push forward (up) and the attack button then you would do a kind of a uppercut strike then mabe if you push back (down) and the attack button then you would do a horizontal slash and all this could be combined to have a bit of a free saber style

 

mabe another method that could be cool is make the secondary fire a different attack, and by combining the primary fire attacks and the secondary fire attacks (more fancy moves) to produce cool combos, it is alot of animation but it might be cool.

 

BTW I am still annoyed that obiwan was moved to the Xbox, does anyone know if the PC version ever got a beta or something that is playable by the fans?

[TheLiberator34]

What you folks mights want to consider if you used mouse sabering is to have a kind of power meter. Kind of like when you play golf pc games. What you have is an attack button that you hold down to swing your saber. As soon as you push down on attack the meter rises up(really quickly) and then if you hit an opponent the damage you do is based off your meter. This power meter would only stay high a short while, which means you cant constantly swing your saber around like a madman. The power meter would drop down and you would have to release the attack button in order to make another strong swing. Otherwise your weapon wont do much damage. Also, whatever direction you swing the weapon in your body and the camera follows, since it makes sense that you footwork should match the strike you're making. That way you don't have to worry about turning a person as well as swing the weapon.

[Gotaiken]

How about this then, so razor doesnt need to buffer.

 

Primary Attack = Medium Attack

 

Secondary Attack = Blue attack

 

Primary+Secondary Attack Tap = Melee

 

Primary+Secondary Attack Held = Heavy Attack

 

Lightsaber Switch, Tap/Hold While Moving In A Direction, not attacking = Turn

 

Lightsaber Switch, Tap While attacking = Cancel Attack

 

Lightsaber Switch, Hold while attacking = Fake, after the fake is initiated directional buttons move into the diffrent fakes, the button no longer needs to be held and pressing the attack button will result in an attack determined by the direction = Fake system.

 

By making the lightsaber switch button f, on the normal asdw setup, and by making it so that you remain in fake whether or not you are holding the lightsaber switch button and until you tap/hold attack again, you can effectively make this setup quite easy as well as intuitive.

 

If fake is not held unless light saber switch is held then you have a problem, people wont be able to press all the asdw keys while holding f, but with it held even after fake initiated you have a fault proof system.

 

With this setup you dont have to do any buffers, and you can still access fakes, feints, and turns easily. You have access to all attacks of any style at anytime and because of this the lightsaber button is not needed, you can perform melee attacks and what have you, perfect.

[Dbl90]

Seems like it could work. I like it. There are plenty of ways to change the ideas of they don't work but come out with a very simmilar system....although I would map out the attacks slightly differantly on the keypad Gotaiken is heading in the right direction. The other ideas in this thread are interesting too. I'd like to see what Razor or Kurgan has to say about it....

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by PerfectJamie

BTW I am still annoyed that obiwan was moved to the Xbox, does anyone know if the PC version ever got a beta or something that is playable by the fans?

 

I never heard a thing about it, but that would certainly be interesting. I'm assuming if such a thing existed though it would be considered "leaked code" and therefore be illegal to possess...

 

It would also by definition be unfinished, but since the PC version sounded like a much better game (unless all those missing features were not actually implemented in any way) than what the Xbox version ended up being.

[keshire]

Ok since I'm being pressured into putting in my two cents here I go.

 

The current combo system works fine. Don't break whats not broken.

 

But when you start messing with that first layer of attacks your going to break the combo system. This stuff is all setup so that it isn't easy to change.

 

You also can't mix attacks from different styles as there are no transitions to account for it. So mapping the styles so you can switch styles midattack isn't a good idea.

 

Also your all basically taking away the block button. Which everybody has wanted and expressed their desire over for quite some time. It also gives you a level of control that you can't get with the base game.

 

With the new blocking system Razor put in coupled with the anims I did for it. You can giude the block to where you want it to be. Unlike the base game. because you have the visual clues neccessary to account and correct where its headed. Think an auto-target version of Vsim. But its related to how your body is positioned. Not how you swing the mouse.

 

The block button should have its own style too. dodge! without the meter. As since you'll be dodging you can't send the person into a parry or counter attack. Which should make up for it not having a meter.

 

So this is what I'd like to see.

 

primary-attack

secondary-block/dodge

primary+secondary-Grabs and melee

 

its simple. with that setup you can go about making your timing based rules without complicating the sytem or breaking anything.

 

Sword fighting is all about offense and defense and in order to have a realistic system you need control over both. BUT you also have to account for reflexes, lag, and balance.

[Dbl90]

I see what you are saying. The intent was never to take out the block button but to slightly alter the control scheme so there was a primary and secondary attack. All I realy want to see is one attack preferably more to each area and knowing which side you are going to hit. So I know if my attack is going right to left or left to right. Somthing else I'd like to see, is better dodging as in rolling to the side. I'd like to make it esier to make it strafe around the opponent...

[keshire]

All I realy want to see is one attack preferably more to each area and knowing which side you are going to hit. So I know if my attack is going right to left or left to right.

 

The current sytem does that. That is what the combo moves do. Take a look at the individual moves in both code and modview. their all labeled by what direction they go and all mesh together.

 

Somthing else I'd like to see, is better dodging as in rolling to the side.

 

Razor has auto-dodge to roll in the opposite direction of the attack.

 

I'd like to make it esier to make it strafe around the opponent...

 

Tell me, give me examples of how strafing is a valid movement?

 

walk strafe maybe. But I have a feeling your refering to run strafe. Strafing is not used in swordplay or even realistic gunplay at all. No one does that. The chance of tripping over your own feet are enormous unless you aren't moving quickly at all. The only other strafe type movement I can think of is the sideways hop that football players do. But circle strafing is the bane of realism. And is only still availabel in games due to the outcry that would happen if you put in realistic human based movement.

[Irimi-Ai]

Originally posted by keshire

primary-attack

secondary-block/dodge

primary+secondary-Grabs and melee

 

its simple. with that setup you can go about making your timing based rules without complicating the sytem or breaking anything.

 

Great idea Keshire. It's concise, comprehensive, and controllable. That kind of system gets my vote.

 

Irimi-Ai

[Gotaiken]

Actually i proposed this idea since razor said that with the new blocking system in effect he wants the blocking button gone. further more, attacks from diffrent styles dont need to transition. None of what I proposed messes up anything anymore then using the normal system would, it just adds more control, intuitivity and variety.

 

Adding more control the saber = more skill application = better sabering.

 

Other thing, you are putting toooooooo much priority on melee attacks, the game is about sabering not hand fighting, adding more control to the saber should be the very first priority, the way the game is melee moves will never be the main thing, sorry.

 

It makes more sense to give more control to saber fighting, and the best way to do that is first start by making all saber styles accessible at any moment at any time. Turning and faking and feinting are also priorities. Melee and throws simply arent going to be spectacular with this engine.

 

Blocks dont need a button with your new animations, dodge never needed a button, melee and grab are still button controlled with my setup, plus you have the ability and variety of throwing any attack into the mix at anytime.

[Gotaiken]

Originally posted by Irimi-Ai

Great idea Keshire. It's concise, comprehensive, and controllable. That kind of system gets my vote.

 

Irimi-Ai

 

umm so is this

 

primary = normal (i.e. yellow)

secondary = weak (i.e. blue)

primary +secondary tap = melee

primary+secondary hold = heavy attack (i.e. red swings)

 

 

This not only adds more control but promotes more intuitivity.

[keshire]

Either way I don't much care. I'm just an animator and its up to whoever does coding how they want to do the system.

 

So arguing with me is irrelevant.

 

And as for the unarmed and melee system. I'll do what I please with it in hopes of actually making it something useful. And I'm not to confident you quite know whats possible with the engine.

 

And if Razor doesn't want to use it it'll still be a part of OJP which means its useable by whoever wants it and not exclusive which is my whole purpose for being with OJP.

[Dbl90]

Now that I actualy have time to check this thread....I see your point in strafing is valid. Even the little "sideways hop" would be fun. I believe there would be nothing more satisfying than standing there as somone goes to do a red dfa on you...briefly stepping to the side, only a foot or two. And as they land finish them.