Giving snipers the coolest toys is a BAD idea...

[Triforcer]

Before I say why, a little background from BF1942 and BF:V, both of which I have played and still play. In these games, there is one class that is a continual siren song to newbies and those with no skill. This class is the sniper. It is not uncommon to see 8-10 snipers on a team of 16 on a public server. These snipers will then make no effort to cap the flag, instead hiding 8 miles away in the hills and sniping at people at the very extreme edge of the fog draw limit. These snipers will be able to rack up about 4 kills on AA gunners or plane campers (99.9% of them lack the skill to hit a moving target), while only dying about 25 times. When they are the last person alive and their team's only hope to regain a flag, they will remain in their sniping spot until all their team's tickets drain away, or until their enraged teammates tell the opposing team where they are.

 

Now, before you give me the "I was a team-oriented sniper who always called for artillery and was #12 on Bfstats.com and turned the tide of dozens of rounds, how dare you say snipers suck" shtick, I BELIEVE YOU. I'm stupid and easily tricked, so I have no problem believing you were one of the 4 snipers out of the 679898 snipers who actually helped their team. But I think we can all agree that the VAST MAJORITY of snipers were utterly skilless newbies who actually detracted from their team's ability to win (by virtue of not being assault or engy or antitank and actually, ya know, capping flags).

 

Now, in the BF games, snipers had no special abilities beyond their rifle (and the bouncing betty in Vietnam, but that's practically worthless). Even given this, even on maps where it was hard/impossible to snipe successfully, there would STILL be a chance at 10 snipers out of 16 players!

 

Compare this to Battlefront. Let's review sniper skills.

 

1) Disguise kit for Rebels- Great. Now the minimal danger they had sniping from 10000 feet away is diminished because they wear their enemy's uniform.

 

2) Orbital Strike for Droid snipers- You have got to be kidding me. Now, the fact that 99.9% of snipers can't hit moving targets is nullified, because they get to scorch half the planet with the Lucas-arts description confirmed "most devastating weapon in the game".

 

3) Probe droids for Imperial snipers- I saved this for last because it is actually MORE tempting to snipers than even an orbital strike. Before, snipers at least had to leave their home base to rack up their 4 kills a game, and they even have to leave their base to get the orbital strike to work. Now, they sit next to an ammo box at home base, securely in a building somewhere and well hidden, and just send out laser-shooting, exploding probe droids. I'll repeat that: IMPERIAL SNIPERS NOW HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO EVEN LEAVE THEIR HOME BASE. If this game mechanic works as I understand it, I will bet anyone here any amount of money that they will log into a game on a pub server where 13-14 of the 16 Imperials are snipers, all sitting in their home base droiding it up.

 

4) Clone snipers- I don't know what they do. Can anyone tell me? Do they summon Jesus or something?

 

 

The point is that Pandemic is giving newbs even MORE incentive to be waste of space snipers than even BF did. The perks described above should not be given to snipers, they should be distributed to other classes or modified. Because right now, we are shaping up for sniper heaven by giving them all of hte coolest abilities.

[Alegis]

I totally agree with you. I thought the sniper class was too easy with the perfect accurate, not moving sniper already... I think to balance things up they'll just overempower every class....how weird that may sound

[SITH_ShadowCat]

I haven't played BF1942 so I can't really relate to the whole sniper extravaganza (sp?), but I do play siege mode in Jedi Academy. How closer is Battfront to each game, I don't know and niether does anyone for that matter save for the devs. But the sniper is a complete opposite of what you said in Seige mode in JA. The sniper there takes actual skill to play as, I've seen noobs running around thinking they can get kills but they're lucky to hit some one be accident. When camping, they make for even easier targets to skilled snipers who can easily pick them off. This may or may not be the case in Battlefront, I don't know. But note that Battlefront IS NOT Battlefield. It may be similar, but in no regard the same game. I'm more worried about the heavy class which apears to be an even bigger noob magnet then the sniper acording to previews. But until this game is released, bitching and moaning won't get us anywhere and is a waste of our time seening as we haven't seen any indepth looks at how each individual class works.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by Triforcer

3) Probe droids for Imperial snipers- I saved this for last because it is actually MORE tempting to snipers than even an orbital strike. Before, snipers at least had to leave their home base to rack up their 4 kills a game, and they even have to leave their base to get the orbital strike to work. Now, they sit next to an ammo box at home base, securely in a building somewhere and well hidden, and just send out laser-shooting, exploding probe droids. I'll repeat that: IMPERIAL SNIPERS NOW HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO EVEN LEAVE THEIR HOME BASE. If this game mechanic works as I understand it, I will bet anyone here any amount of money that they will log into a game on a pub server where 13-14 of the 16 Imperials are snipers, all sitting in their home base droiding it up.

 

That's why they should keep the Imperial Officer and give the Probe Droid to him.

 

Originally posted by Triforcer

4) Clone snipers- I don't know what they do. Can anyone tell me? Do they summon Jesus or something?

 

That is hilarious.

 

Well, down to business. I'm planning to do some major class redoing. Take away all the special items from the Scouts to take away some of the excess glory, take the medic duties away from Pilots, return of the Imperial Officer, etc.

[BurnsU]

TK-8252:

 

I wont flame you like last time, but im curious as to how you know they need tweaking? Maybe making the classes the way they are HELPED the gameplay. So how would you know they are unbalanced and screwed up if you havent played?....

 

 

..Or have you played?!

 

People keep making guesses as to how these so called "inbalances" will ruin the game. When in fact, they havent played the game, and dont know how balanced/inbalanced it is at all.

[TK-8252]

Put spaces after punctuation so I can understand what you're trying to say, and then I'll answer you.

[BurnsU]

Ok, spaces are now there

[vulcan_sniper]

while I agree with the fact that most newbs pick snipers as their choice class, I almost must pointout the fact that there are some really good snipers out there, to. while i credit the fact that that there are some good snipers out there by giving thos "select" group an applause. I have known snipers in battlefield who good nail people that were inside planes .

[BurnsU]

Nevermind.

[THE BADGER:]

The game will be balanced in the end. No need to worry.

[TK-8252]

Thanks.

 

Okay, well, sit back and let ol' uncle TK tell you a story.

 

Jedi Academy's Siege classes are a total wreck. There's some classes with 200+ health... some classes with nearly all the weapons in the game... Techs have the role of field medics and supply units... and some classes that just flat-out suck. And the worst thing in Siege: the Jedi class.

 

I can already see Battlefront's classes heading in the wrong direction.

 

Scouts should not have the "Recon Droid" or any other special abilities, other than sniping. As someone said before, a unit armed with a sniper rifle and remote-control orbital strike droid nearly eliminates the need for a sniper to leave their base at all.

 

Pilots should not have the role that a field medic has. How can you cram a pilot, engineer, technician, mechanic, medic, supplier, and infantry unit all into one class? It simply cannot be done realistically. It seems like the guys in charge of creating the classes just got bored and decided to cram all these duties into one class... because a "Pilot" class would really have nothing to do since all classes can jump into a ship.

 

Dark Troopers... umm... what are these things again? Excuse me, but if you didn't play Dark Forces, you would have no idea WTF this rock-solid killing-machine EU droid called the Dark Trooper is. If you've played Dark Forces, which not all Battlefront players will, you'll know that the Dark Trooper is one of the most dreaded hunks of metal ever created by the Empire. Why would someone choose to be a Stormtrooper or an AT-ST Pilot when you could be one of the dreaded Dark Troopers?

 

In Return to Castle Wolfenstein, these are the classes:

 

Soldier

Soldiers are the most common class. They are the most usable, as they can use all the weapons. However they dont have any special skills or uses.

 

Medic

A medic is a very efficent way to keep a battle going. They can heal the wounded and even revive the disabled. They are also the only class that can hand out medipacks. Be sure to have one with you when going into the heat of battle.

 

Engineer

Engineers are critical to solving many of the maps' objectives, as they can lay down dynamite charges that can blow open walls or other obstacles (a convenient icon on the heads up display tells you if you can dynamite any given structure). Engineers can also repair broken devices, such as stationary turrets or machine guns, with their tool kits. Without a engineer in your team there can be some serious problems when the objective needs em.

 

Lieutenant

Lieutenants are the field commanders of your forces, and serve two very important functions. First, they can drop ammunition packs on the battlefield. This is critical since, like health, ammunition is absent from the map unless dropped by a Lieutenant. They can also call in airstrikes, wich when tactically used can lay down some serious devastation. The Lieutenant can pull a similar trick with an artillery strike by using his binoculars to target the area he wants obliterated.

 

Now, I think that these classes make much more sense. The engineer isn't the same thing as a medic or lieutenant! The only things RtCW lack which I think are needed for Battlefront are heavy weapons and scout classes. But still, there's no reason that a deep-space pilot should have the same duties as a field medic or officer.

 

To get back on-topic... somethings you don't actually have to experience to know there's something wrong. Some things are going to be literally smashed by the nerf-stick we can already predict by just watching the trailers, reading reviews, or simply comparing the advantages and disadvantages of different classes. I mean... really... who wants to be a Stormtrooper when you should be a Dark Trooper? The two classes both have the same disadvantages, but the Dark Trooper has a jetpack! Some things are just better than others and simply cannot be balanced. Natural selection my friends.

 

For some shameless plugging... I'm going to bring my mod for Jedi Academy into this. It's called SWR - Star Wars Realism. Aside from all the NPC, weapon, effects, sounds, skin, and model fixes, it changes all the Siege classes for the Hoth and Tatooine Siege missions. I've played Siege games with SWR's classes, and people liked it much better than the default classes by Raven Software. I may be being arrogant, but I believe that after the success of SWR's improved classes, I think that Battlefront could use some changing as well. Battlefront has been greatly influenced by the Jedi Knight series... and this means in a bad way. Sorry, but Raven Software know squat about Star Wars. Go watch the movies again, Raven. Wookiee bowcasters do not shoot green lasers.

[BurnsU]

You make good points, theres a couple of your arguments that I dont agree with.

 

1. I dont think it matters what the sniper has, if you use tactics and strategy you could get past all that.

 

For example:

 

Snipers will be focused on things long distances away from them. Whos to say someone couldnt sneak around, go right behind him, and put a blaster bolt right in his head? He would be distracted and never knew what hit him.

 

2.Bowcaster color isnt that big of a deal. I wouldn't be surprised if you were the only one bothered by it.

 

3.I like to think of the Pilot as a support class rather than a Pilot (Call me crazy if you want). Correct me if im wrong, but I dont think the Pilot has a very good hand weapon. I always thought he only had a lousy pistol, which would make him a cruddy combat class unless he uses a turret he builds. And judging by some gameplay vids, it takes like 10 seconds to build one, which makes the class vulnerable.

 

 

4.So long as the Dark trooper isnt as overly powerful as it was in the EU, I dont see a problem. You might as well complain about the Clone Troopers having a jetpack class.

 

 

5. Jedi Academy Seige mode didn't have very effective vehicles, it just had your basic swoops and AT-ST's. In this there are tanks, powerful rocket launchers, and a way more realistic damage system. Anyone with decent aim or a vehicle could take out anything regardless of class.

 

 

In the end, if there are any balance issues, good enough players will get right passed it. This didn't apply to Jedi Academy Seige because it didn't involve tactics and was very linear, as there were no places to hide and the entire thing was just a shoot-em-up frag fest with no mind involved.

 

I hope you understand my points on some of this.

 

 

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by BurnsU

Snipers will be focused on things long distances away from them. Whos to say someone couldnt sneak around, go right behind him, and put a blaster bolt right in his head? He would be distracted and never knew what hit him.

 

If that sniper is camping at his base, who ever is to put that bolt through his head will have to fight past the defenses (including snipers) to put said bolt through said sniper's head.

 

Originally posted by BurnsU

2.Bowcaster color isnt that big of a deal. I wouldn't be surprised if you were the only one bothered by it.

 

I've already seen a couple complaints about that here. I am not the only one who dislikes inaccuracies in a game that's supposed to be authentic to the movies. And to prove that I'm not crazy if I'm going to make a mod to change a laser color, there were many mods for Jedi Outcast/Academy that fixed the color of the lasers for the pistols (they shoot orange lasers) and bowcasters.

 

Originally posted by BurnsU

3.I like to think of the Pilot as a support class rather than a Pilot (Call me crazy if you want). Correct me if im wrong, but I dont think the Pilot has a very good hand weapon. I always thought he only had a lousy pistol, which would make him a cruddy combat class unless he uses a turret he builds. And judging by some gameplay vids, it takes like 10 seconds to build one, which makes the class vulnerable.

 

You're crazy. A pilot, in the real militaries, does really one thing - pilots ships. I understand a pilot having similar duties of an engineer or mechanic, but not a medic or officer. And the Pilot class will have an, IMO, too powerful weapon. Imperial Pilots will have a mortar launcher; Droid Pilots will have a pulse grenade launcher which gives off radiation; Rebel Pilots will have a scatter rifle, which is like a shotgun, and the Clone Pilot has some kind of droid-stunner rifle. Not much info has been released about the Clone Pilot's weapon.

 

Originally posted by BurnsU

I hope you understand my points on some of this.

 

 

 

Yes, I do. Any part of your arguement which I did not quote I feel you have a decent point.

[Xirion]

yeah snipers will be everywhere , no matter what!

[PanzerTekk]

looks like most things die very easy (fromt he pre view) and it doesn't take much guessing to asume that snipers have no armor and will die hideously.

All I can hope for is that there are limits on how many can be spawned at the same time.

 

And yes....there can be problemsw with to many snipers on a team if there are no limits, but not always. If you find a game that has people that know what they are doing then u wont see that. For pc you'll just have to find the good servers. On the consoles.....play with friends or repeat the find good people.

[MrBeanLaden]

The solution to this problem is the class system of red orchestra(an UT2004 WWII eastern front ambiented mod) which has different classes, one generic with bolt rifles and the others(snipers, submachineguns...) with limits. This has its pros and cons but at least u can play in battles where there's a real proportion of classes.

this also could be a server option, and also there are ways to improve that, for example giving preference to the best players of the server on chossing that limited classes, or if u hadn't scored X points in X lives your place is given to another player who is in the generic class and wants it.

I'm for having more powerfull classes than others, but also have that powerfull classes limited and being a prize for the players who helped more the team.

If we want a game that feels like the films,the droidekas should be more frightening than a normal droid, also a sniper should be than an normal infantry soldier.

Also that powerful classes should had cons but in overall they should be better than the normal infantry.

I don't want a deatmatch game so I don't care much if 1vs1 the most time that class wins as far as that class is limited, because I think in the team based games the individual kills should not have so much importancy.

I think also giving that toys to the snipers is not a good idea, and many other thinks of the classes.

Forgiveme for going a little off this topic but I've seen a lot of topics talking abou t the power of different classes and I chose this to post this.

 

plz forgive me for my bad english

[Alegis]

I've learned with unbalanced games that you willbe ableto beat em..at least i could. Taking weakest classesand fighting the strongest was a big challenge forme at first, but then ^provedto be easy shet since you'll learn things to do vs these classes, the tides got turned.

 

I prefer green bowcaster color, I do not, do not, even hate to see red laser bullets

 

The only, only thing i'd see in a mod is random bullets flying everywhere or less accuracy, and moving sniper screen. I cannot be bothered by something else such as balance

 

And never, ever think a 'pistol' is weak. it produces short accurate shots.Would only takelike 2,3 bullets to kill you, before you can even start emptying your submachine. Fear the pistolin call of dty, submachine guys dont always go up frontto fight with pistol

[yaebginn]

TK, in real miltaries? In real militaries, do they fly starships? Do they shoot laser beams? Really, expand your imagination. AND, in star wars, the pilots dont get trained much by the Rebels to fly, they mostly already knew that, they have to know more stuff so they can survive in any situation.

[PanzerTekk]

pilots are more jack of all trades.

Kinda like most of the rebels actually...

[Stingray]

It seems that the best solution for the pilot problem is to just change the name "pilot" into another name that makes clear it's a support class.

 

It might cause some inlogicalities (sp? does that word exist? ) such as the support class being able to jump out of an destroyed vehicle, but surely it is easier to do than shuffling with the classes and it's weapons again?

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by yaebginn

TK, in real miltaries? In real militaries, do they fly starships? Do they shoot laser beams? Really, expand your imagination. AND, in star wars, the pilots dont get trained much by the Rebels to fly, they mostly already knew that, they have to know more stuff so they can survive in any situation.

 

No, but they do fly airplanes, which Star Wars based their ships on. No, but they do shoot guns with bullets, which Star Wars based their blasters on.

 

In Star Wars, Imperial TIE Pilots didn't even go into battle on foot. They didn't carry any weapons. Their sole purpose was to pilot TIEs. Now, Rebel Pilots were kind of jacks of all trades. I've even got a playing card of some Rebel Pilots moving some equipment off of the Hoth battlefield to be evacuated.

 

But still... "Rogue Squadron! We have an injured soldier on Endor! We need you to get a pilot half-way across the galaxy to offer medical assistance!" No, that doesn't make sense.

[yaebginn]

no, cause rogue squadron is popular. these are just regular guys. and imp pilots did carry blasters. I read it, they have a standard IMP pistol.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by yaebginn

no, cause rogue squadron is popular. these are just regular guys. and imp pilots did carry blasters. I read it, they have a standard IMP pistol.

 

On the offical Star Wars site databank, Imperial TIE Pilots have no weapon listed.

[yaebginn]

I think I know a little bit more than they od, thank you very much.

[Master William]

In Jedi Outcast, Imperial Pilots had small blasters with them. I remember when you first see them.

 

And again, don't take the "Play the movies" thing too serious, or else we would play on the Death Star, not on some stupid ice planet called Rhen Var.