Updated SWGB2 Template

[Darth Windu]

For those who might be interested, i have updated my template with

 

- 4 unique Generals for each civilisation (Confederacy only has two at the moment)

- Semi Unique buildings (power generation and defensive structures)

 

There is still more work to do on it though, but it is now up at my website so feel free to go take a look.

[Darth Windu]

One thing i forgot to mention, aside from unique Power Generation and Defence structures, each civ also has unique Airbase structures, although i may change the Rebel Airbase.

[Admiral Vostok]

I was in the mood for a really thorough read of your design, so here's some comments.

 

1. First up, I like the improved navigation of the document, with hyperlinks going everywhere. Now all you need to do is put it on your website in HTML format so I don't have to download it every time.

2. Generals would be better off being called "Commanders" - more Star-Warsy and it lets you have Commanders who aren't Generals. Plus it's less obvious as a rip-off of C&C:Generals.

3. You mention that Smugglers visit all of the civs spaceports. This is silly. Smugglers would only operate with the Rebels (and maybe the Naboo, but unlikely); all the other factions would consider them criminals, especially the Confederacy.

 

Confederacy

4. I assume the bit that says OOM-9 gets a bonus for Mechs as well as a detriment to Mechs is a typo.

5. Other obvious Generals for the Separatists would be Count Dooku and Poggle the Lesser.

6. I still think Geonosis makes a better homeworld than Muunilist.

7. I like the Security Droid idea, it suits them. The fact that both AoM and C&C:G both already do it makes it less of a rip-off

8. I don't think the Homing Spider Droid should be faster than the AAT. This isn't what we saw in the movies. Instead, I think the HSD should be better against Mechs than the AAT, with less armour but more hit points.

9. You mention the Droid Starfighter cannot "self-repair". What is self-repairing, I can't find it anywhere.

 

Empire

10. Rocket Trooper shouldn't be good against infantry for balance reasons.

 

Republic

11. Perhaps as well as the Clone Captain, the Republic can use Jedi Knights as their Officers? A Jedi Knight could be promoted to a Jedi Master and give a bonus like the Clone Captain does. Just a thought.

12. I don't understand why Jedi get promoted from Padawan to Veteran Padawan ( ) to Knight. Surely Padawan to Knight to Master makes infinitely more sense.

13. I say again that the Gunship should not be "fast". Just look at how much more manouverable the Geonosian Fighters are in comparison. The Gunship whould be one of the slowest air vehicles, excluding large transports. This would help balance its effectiveness. The same goes for Dropships, but moreso.

 

Rebels

14. Madine's ability to decrease enemy line of sight seems a bit overpowered, plus it doesn't make much sense. His lack of Fog of War is WAY overpowered.

15. Still not liking the personal trench idea.

16. How do enemies get rid of Bothan Spies in their buildings?

17. The Airspeeder's special ability that is only useful against the AT-AT is a tad overpowered when facing Empire.

18. I'd suggest that either the Rebel Airbase holds less than four units, or the Confederacy and Empire's holds more. This is because the Confederacy and Empire rely on swarms of fighters while the Rebels rely on a few elite fighters, so the airbases themselves should encourage this.

19. Bothan Spynet is overpowered.

20. Why the hell do the Rebels have a Mech Factory when they have no Mechs!?

 

Naboo

21. The seismic charge defense system makes no sense.

22. Gungan Artillery should be called Gungan Catapult.

 

Minor Civs

23. I notice you listed "Humans" as a minor civ... how are humans a minor civ? They can be as different as Naboo is to Bespin.

 

Gameplay

24. Why can't Mechs move through forests? I seem to remember AT-STs, AT-ATs, MTTs and STAPs doing just that in the films I saw.

25. I still think autonomy would be more useful with a proper name instead of red/yellow/green. At the very least you should reconsider the associations; it would make more sense if red meant stop while green meant go... perhaps a wacky convention in your eyes, but a convention none the less.

26. I really don't think you need resource exchanging when you have just two resources. Resource exchanging is only used in games with at least three resources. Since you're all for less-micro get rid of exchanging and just allow metal deposits to give a reduced amount when expired, like StarCraft Vespene Gas.

27. Your pop-cost system doesn't make a whole lot of sense. How can a B-Wing cost 7 pop when an AT-AT costs 8? Also, air transports should definitely not cost 8 pop - no-one will use them at all, especially not when you've got your magical water transporting in play.

 

That's all for now.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Ok my turn since I don't have anything else to do...

 

Overall

1. I still don't get these team colors. What happens if we're playing a random map and two players play as the Confeds? Two purple players?

 

2. Understandable that a civ like the Confed loses control over their units if the Command Center is destroyed but for the other civs it doesn't make sense, especially for the Rebels.

 

3. Do we really need the square formation?

 

4. Weather is too powerful. If weather can take down an AT-AT, why can't it take downa Jedi? Besides the idea is bad.

 

5. Weapons autonomy is also called Agressive, Defensive or Do nothing. Much easier for the player to remember...

 

 

 

Confederacy

 

1. Doesn't General Grievous advantages the Confeds only against the Republic? It's logical but he'll be utterly useless against other civs.

 

2. I'll just say I disagree with Vostok on the AAT/HSD issue. It's obvious that the AAT should be a better anti-mech weapon. It's design makes it look a lot like those old WWII Tank Destroyers.

 

3. I still want the Hailfire Droid to be quite inaccurate against ground targets, mech or no. It's a lot more like a mobile rocket launcher à la Nebelwerfer or Katyusha.

 

4. I've always wanted to see more mines:thumbsup:

 

Galactic Empire

 

1. Admiral Ozzel?! You could use somebody else...

 

2. Does it mean the Empire fires green blaster bolts? Geez...I've never seen Stormies fire green blaster bolts. Nor AT-ATs or STs as a matter of facts.

 

3. Rocket troopers can damage mass infantry AND good against mechs? Balance...

 

4. The AT-AT should take damage from infantry based weapons even if it's minor. Unless this ultimate unit of mass destruction à la AoM Titans.

 

5. Tie Interceptor should have 4 blasters.

 

6. Does the type of unit we garrison in the Bunker affect its firing capabilities? Like, if I garrison a Repeater, does it use its repeater?

 

7. Why should I buil a StarFleet Uplink instead of simply building 5 Tie Bombers and doing the same thing? What's the advantage?

 

Galactic Republic

 

1. Master Tiin? Who is that?

 

2. Again, Weapon color...

 

3. Vostok, already said it, there's no point in having a Veteran Padawan.

 

4. Jedi Starfighter pilots should be weaker then regular Jedi of the same rank. It's a second life unit, in every game, they're weaker.

 

5. Gunship should be slow.

 

6. So the sole existence of a Clone factory means it halves the built time of infantry? Shouldn't it be better if it was connected to the Barrack?

 

Rebel Alliance

 

1. General Madine shouldn't reduce enemy LOS. Only increase yours it's enough. Same as Vostok about Fog-of War.

 

2. Isn't it overpowered to make Rebel structures Stealthy?

 

3. Foxholes are not trenches.

 

4. Rebel infantry should not be cloaked like that.

 

5. Bothan spy is overpowered while in enemy CC.

 

6. If anything, the Airspeeder should be EASIER to hit when using its two cable. Anyway, gives too much of an edge to the Rebels against the Empire.

 

7. Ion Cannon is more powerful then all of the other civ's Special Buildings.

 

Naboo

 

1. The Heavy turret and Royal Cannon is very un-nabooish.

 

Campaigns

 

1. They just seem really dull. You're gonna torture the poor people who are gonna want to play the Naboo.

 

 

 

Last Comment

 

The civ design is ok, except for the few minor imbalances, I kinda like it.

 

However, the gameplay is similar to Civ building, which does fit the Naboo but pretty much none of the other civs for realism reasons. The Rebels especially.

That's I think what will be the curse of your template. It'll be Civilization:Star Wars.

 

The border is still a curse and makes no sense in this game. It was OK in RoN but here makes little sense. Why should civs like the Rebels be restrainedby borders? They just shouldn't be in.

 

So that's all for now and here it's 1 am. Good Night.

[Darth Windu]

Excellent, some feedback on my template. Good to see. Okay now,

 

Vostok-

2. Alright, it's been changed

 

3. When i say 'smugglers', basically its referring to traders and whatnot. It just seems to me that 'smugglers' is a better term for it in the SW universe

 

4. Yes it is, it has now been corrected

 

5. True, but then Dooku is the overall leader while Poggle may or may not be a member of the Confederacy. Have to think about that one.

 

6. Perhaps, but considering Geonosis is a droid-producing planet and is captured at the start of the clone wars by the Republic indicated to me it is not their capital

 

8. See the problem here is that the AAT seems to have a larger and more powerful main weapon, while the Droideka and Dwarf Spider Droid are both excellent against infantry, so then i made the decision to make the Homing Spider Droid a faster but weaker AAT

 

9. You will see this in the Rebel, Naboo and Republic sections. Any fighter with a droid as well can self-repair itself to 50% when damaged.

 

10. Consider it changed

 

11. The reason i dont have it like that is because otherwise the Republic would have a huge amount of officers, and hence too much of an advantage over other civs

 

12. It does, but then i have 4 levels of experience, and i felt that having an army of Veteran Knights was more realistic than having an army of Masters

 

13. I have now rediced it to a moderate speed

 

14. I have removed his ability to reduce the enemy LOS

 

16. Good question. I was thinking of giving officers the ability to 'scan' buildings which would take a certain amount of time to see if there are any spies in them.

 

17. Not really when you consider it's really the only thing that can take on AT-AT's

 

20. Typo, my bad. Now fixed

 

21. What Siesmic Charge Defence system?

 

22. Done

 

23. Humans are a generic civ covering Corellia, Alderaan, Kuat etc - its just a pain in the backside trying to make all of them unique, hence the Human civ, although it would be nice to have unique art for Bespin.

 

24. This is basically to encourage people to use infantry and not just horde mechs.

 

26. True, but it should still be there anyway

 

27. I'll have another look.

 

 

Luke-

Overall

1. Team Colours have been removed

 

2. It is to simulate a loss of command and control, which in battle is almost always catastrophic (sp?)

 

3. Why not?

 

4. I never said it could take down an AT-AT

 

Confederacy

1. He is good against all infantry, i just wrote 'Republic' because that is who he fights in the campaign

 

3. They didnt seem very inaccurate in AotC

 

Empire

1. Probably, but i thought that his style was unique and hence should be an option. Besides, it's better than including an EU commander.

 

2. I've changed that now

 

4. I suppose so...

 

5. why?

 

6. Yes, although i suppose i should state that in the template

 

7. The advantage is that the TIE Bombers coming in are free and regenerate from the Uplink

 

Republic

1. Jedi Master Saesee Tiin (the guy on the council with downward curving horns)

 

6. Maybe it should, but i dont think so

 

Rebellion

2. Probably, but remember they rely on stealth and speed to survive

 

4. I suppose, although some units will remain cloaked i will remove it from others

 

5. If you dont protect your CC then you deserve to have a spy in it

 

6. As i said to Vostok, the Speeder is basically the Rebels only defence against the AT-AT

 

7. Not really since it doesnt damage anything and only powers down some structures and units for a short period

 

Naboo

1. I agree about the Turret, i dont like it, but i figure that after the Battle of Naboo they would have wanted a long-range weapon to engage their enemies before they got anywhere near their cities

 

Campaigns

1. If you can come up with anything better i would be happy to include it, although i am keeping Kenobi on Alderaan

 

Last Comment

In terms of borders, they are there simply to prevent things like building defensive buildings in your opponents base

[Admiral Vostok]

Responses to Windu's responses to my responses:

3. Traders sounds just as Star Warsy and makes infinitely more sense. The term Traders has been used several times in the films.

6. But Geonosis was the planet on which the Confederacy was founded. It doesn't matter that Geonosis was lost at the start of the Clone Wars - Yavin 4 was lost at the start of the Civil War and you've still got it as the Rebel home planet.

8. I disagree. I think the HSD has a larger and more powerful weapon. Besides, with such a slow rate of fire on the HSD it would only work well against Mechs.

12. Veteran Knights, yes, but Veteran Padawans? What the hell is a Veteran Padawan? But at any rate, if you've played C&C:Generals you'll know that it is not all that often you get an entire army of veterans. So I think Masters would still be better, since it's unlikely you'd get a whole army of them anyway. Perhaps you could make it so that to attain Master veterancy, a Jedi has to gain more experience than other units trying to attain top veterancy?

18. Yes really when you consider the other two civs have no equivalent AT-AT killer. One unique unit on one army specifically designed to take out another unique unit on another army is bad balance no matter how you look at it. Imperial players would never build AT-ATs when playing against Rebel players.

21. It says the Naboo get Seismic Charges around their buildings (perhaps if I describe it as the direct rip-off from Chinese mines in C&C:Generals you'll know what I'm talking about)

23. People would want unique art from them anyway, considering we'll be seeing Alderaan in Episode III. You don't need Kuat. So Humans can be split into Alderaan/Bespin/Corellia... much better.

24. That wouldn't discourage me. There are plenty of better ways to discourage Mech whoring, making them unrealistic with their terrain movement is not one of them.

26. Why? Explain how your anti-micro stance justifies this.

 

Responses to Windu's responses to Luke'sDad's responses:

Confederacy

1. Well change it to just say infantry. I got confused by that the first time I read it too, and if it doesn't reflect their ability properly you should fix it.

3. The did seem pretty inaccurate to me. All those missiles the hailfire droid fires and we only see one AT-TE destroyed? Besides I think it would be cool seeing the missiles fly everywhere, and it certainly explains why they shoot lots of them in succession. Besides, from a gameplay perspective it means there are better choices to take out Mechs like the HSD. If the Hailfire Droid was accurate what would stop people building entire armies of them?

Rebellion

6. Yes, but again what of the Confederacy's and Republic's defense against the AT-AT? And no, I'm not saying they should have one, since as I said above if everyone's got a simple solution to AT-ATs they'll never be used.

7. It causes aircraft to crash. Just target it on your enemy's airbases all the time and you're sure to get your money's worth.

Last Comment

I suppose you believe forward base building is unrealistic then? I don't think it is, so borders should be removed.

[DK_Viceroy]

The Main problem i see with the entire thing is that's it's still Generic it has some semi generic elements but it's still generic.

 

as wel, of course the fact it's a frankenstein assembled with large amounts of ideas takenm from many many other games.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

Luke-

Overall

 

2. It is to simulate a loss of command and control, which in battle is almost always catastrophic (sp?)

 

3. Why not?

 

4. I never said it could take down an AT-AT

 

Confederacy

 

3. They didnt seem very inaccurate in AotC

 

Empire

 

5. why?

 

Republic

 

6. Maybe it should, but i dont think so

 

Rebellion

2. Probably, but remember they rely on stealth and speed to survive

 

5. If you dont protect your CC then you deserve to have a spy in it

 

7. Not really since it doesnt damage anything and only powers down some structures and units for a short period

 

Campaigns

1. If you can come up with anything better i would be happy to include it, although i am keeping Kenobi on Alderaan

 

Last Comment

In terms of borders, they are there simply to prevent things like building defensive buildings in your opponents base

 

First off, thank you Vostok for answering most of my points.

 

Overall

 

2. I still don't agree. A civ like the Rebel wouldn't even need a Command center to operate. They would have very mobile stuff. It's not like the invade other planets the same way the others do.

 

3. Because it's archaic and useless.

 

4. You said it could kill units. An AT-AT is a unit.

 

Confederacy

 

3. Same as Vostok. I remember playing Sudden Strike. The game was not very fun, pace was too slow and tanks weren't that powerful. However, there was nothing cooler then seeing a Katyusha shooting a huge volley of rockets flying everywhere over a targeted area.

 

Empire

 

5. I'm sure I saw in RotJ an interceptor firing from the tip of its wings. Besides, all SW flight sims support the Tie Interceptor having quad blasters.

 

Republic

 

6. I suppose so. Better make it a quite expensive building.

 

Rebellion

 

2. They better be frigging weak then...Besides, it makes them a bit overpowered compared to other civs.

 

5. That's not the point. It's almost a game exploit. Having complete line of sight like that is over powered. Building LOS only makes more sense then every unit LOS.

 

7. Vostok said it, it makes enemy aircrafts crash. Besides, it depends a LOT on how short it will be. If it's too short, it's ineffective. If it's a little too long it's overpowered.

 

Campaigns

 

Not really. I'll think about it though. It will be better if the campaign was a bit more story driven. This is like, build up and destroy enemy...yay...

I'll think about it.

 

Last Comment

 

Ridiculous. If they can bring workers that close to your base to build defensive structures you deserve it. AoK had the problem of enemy barracks being built too close to your base but that was effectively countered by SWGB's power cores.

[FroZticles]

I'm with Viceroy on this one I read the first 2 civs and felt that it was obvious and generic. Also it does still show that you have cut ideas from other games (which we all have done) but you need to polish those off to hide it a bit more.

[Darth Windu]

Alright

Hailfire Droid - as i said, these seemed accurate to me in AotC, so the obvious solution is that each missile is not very powerful but they fire salvo's instead of single weapons.

 

Airspeeder/AT-AT - the Airspeeder is the counter to the AT-AT, but it is rather weak, lacking shields and whatnot. For the Republic and Confederacy, they have the heavy forces like AT-TE's, Gunships, AAT's, HSD's, Hailfire Droids etc to handle AT-AT's.

 

Froz/Viceroy - the problem here is that it is impossible to make all units unique. For example, In terms of the Stormtrooper, Clone, Battle droid and Rebel Trooper all do the same thing. They have different speed, weapons power etc but there is no way to make them completely unique because they aren't complately unique.

[FroZticles]

I know that they should not be all unique but I don't know what it is about your template but I just can't warm to it...

[DK_Viceroy]

While yet i understand where your coming from you could have made some variation on them and not given every civ a rocket trooper when some blatantly wouldn't use them. I like some elements but i'd like to see more vareity in the buildings like perhaps for the confederacy you could have production bonuses to production buildings grouped together.

[Admiral Vostok]

Hailfire Droid: Each missile should be powerful, but inaccurate. The fact they fire in salvos makes up for the inaccuracy. It might not be exactly how they were in the film (they weren't completely inaccurate), but for the purposes of Gameplay it should be this way.

 

Airspeeder/AT-AT: Then how do the Rebels deal with AT-TEs, SPHA-Ts, AATs, HSDs. etc? (Damn that's a lot of acronyms). The Airspeeder needs to be a bit more versatile. There isn't an RTS game on the planet that has a unit specifically designed to only take down a single unit in a single civ. For example, in my design I've got the Airspeeder and it has a special harpoon attack like yours, but I've made my harpoon good against all Mechs, not just the AT-AT. I've justified it by saying that against walkers, it wraps their legs up like on Hoth, but with hover-vehicles and tracked vehicles, it shoots the harpoon into the ground and effectively "ties up" the Mech.

 

Uniqueness: I agree with Viceroy and Froz, but I also can't place my finger on exactly what makes the design too generic. Perhaps it's the fact that your buildings are mostly generic. You could also add some uniqueness into their research centres, since this is a major part of your design. For example, while one civ uses the Research Centre as you've got it (with all research done in the one place), another civ might have different buildings each for the different research fields. A third civ might use a unit rather than a building to do the research.

 

Also, perhaps some of the more generic units - like the Rocket Trooper, which everyone has - could be more genericised. This was one of the reasons I was originally wary to include rocket troopers in my design, because they'd all be generic and would seem out of place. However, I came up with some unique ways to incorporate rocket troopers (for example, my Clone Troopers can upgrade to have rocket packs like Jango Fett, rather than the Republic having an individual rocket trooper).

 

Finally, the Generals/Commanders and their abilities are all pretty generic. Some (Madine off the top of my head) are pretty unique, but for others you've picked their speciality and increased all the stuff in that area but decreased other areas. Perhaps unique units and the loss of some of the generic units would work better in this regard.

[DK_Viceroy]

It is coming along nicely but still we need to get away from this horrible idea that everything or the majority has to be generic when it should be a minority of generic units that can't really be made unique like say air transports they all transport they all fly they either have weapons or sheilds and they're all slow. so the air transport could be classed as generic.

 

One thing i think we must do, is to do away completly with the idea of an original side yes an orginial side can be discussed as a foundation but to be used to create commanders from.

[Admiral Vostok]

What do you mean by "an original side"?

[Darth Windu]

Vostok

- with the Speeder, it is effective against Mechs, it just has a special attack to take down AT-AT's. For all other mechs, it would use it's blasters, and you could and should also be attacking with X-wings, Y-wings and B-wings.

 

Viceroy - which civ would 'blatently' not use a Rocket Trooper? Again, the problem is that we have never seen a unit like this in the films, so we dont know how they work. I should point out though that Battlefront has included Rocket Troopers for all sides.

 

Generic vs Unique - i understand and accpt that some of my template is generic, but there is simply no way around it. For example, how do you make five Barracks unique? Each building, like each unit, is different in that it can be sold (Rebels) or that it is self-powered (Republic) or that it is stronger than others (Empire). But apart from that, i have no idea how to make them more unique.

 

Incidently however, what do people think of my unique Power and Defence structures?

[Admiral Vostok]

I know that's what the airspeeder has. It's exactly that I've been saying is wrong. A special attack only useful against a single unit is bad gameplay. You won't find an RTS out there that has the same sort of thing.

 

The unique power and defence structures are alright, nothing amazing.

[DK_Viceroy]

I mean the ones where their are no commander adavnatges or disadvantges or what windu has called combined arms with the likes of padme and that rabble.

[Admiral Vostok]

Oh, I see what you mean. I think a "vanilla faction" as I like to call it is probably a necessity, though perhaps it doesn't need to be with the right considerations.

[DK_Viceroy]

Especially since it would be un-realistic i'll use an example as rebels. they'd hardly be able to send all of their equipment to one battlefront a commander would be more lkely to get fighters another would get troopers and so on they would't be able to afford to send all of their best to one place and as such commanders would be better at tactics using those units.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I don't think it would necessarily be "unrealistic". Sure, different Commanders may specialise but surely the Rebellion still has the ability to deploy the entirety of their forces adequately.

 

Not having a "vanilla" faction is somewhat like AoM, where each of the three major Gods for the civs are different from each other, with no-one being the "vanilla" God.

[DK_Viceroy]

That thought hadn't crossed my mind actually I've decided a while ago not to play on AoM until i get the xpac.

[Admiral Vostok]

I like AoM without the xpac a bit better, so no need to wait.

[DK_Viceroy]

I got the Xpac and i love the game even more i think the Atlanteans are perfectly balanced with the rest of the civs.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Bah hate the Atlanteans. ES should have improved the other civs also.