Why was Manny a reaper?

[El Virus]

Hey, wait a minute. Just thought of another paradox.

 

What might that be?

 

I never took Chowchilla's comment seriously either, but since we were discussing the topic I thought it might come in handy.

 

You know, maybe I'm just not stubborn enough, but I give up. My brain wilts from this discussion.

 

Yeah, I give up too. I'm convinced it is a plot mistake or just something they didn't think we would be discussing.

 

At the 'rich saint' clause, I think it is one of the things that bothered me (and confused me) about the game, somehow, the idealistic personality of the game was overshadowed by that fact. Probably why Salvador wanted to start a revolution.

I'm guessing that the money was only good to buy a package like a car or a boat trip, and only saints could aspire to the NN. However, once again, Manuel says that money has no use in the LotD.

 

That is enough for me, the game is still [nearly] perfect.

 

-As for the thing on Eva's head, I have no idea.

 

-It looks a bit like a headscarf, but I've never seen headscarves (or hair) sticking up like that)). It must be some speacial Underworld High Fashion

 

A huge amount of hair spray? ¬¬

I still think it is a bandana, the characters who have got hair in the game have just got a couple of black lines.

[VampireNaomi]

What might that be?

 

I could have worded that one a little better. It's the same one we've been talking about in the thread earlier, but I didn't realise the Meche angle of it until now. To others it must have been obvious from the beginning, but I'm a little slow.

 

Aren't plot hole and plot mistake basically the same thing?

[El Virus]

To others it must have been obvious from the beginning, but I'm a little slow.

 

Now, don't say that; this game might get too confusing when discussed.

 

Aren't plot hole and plot mistake basically the same thing?

 

Practically.

An example of a plot hole would be the fact that Celso (on foot) arrived to Rubacava before Manny (who was on a car) did, Celso's wife (who died later) arrived even earlier, and Meche only got there after one year (I think there is more than one far-fetched solution to this).

The plot mistake may be a goof, or anything that hasn't been well developed; like the things talked about at the thread. Am I criticizing the game too much?

Just my thought, I haven't digged it up in the dictionary or anything, so correct me if I am mistaken.

[VampireNaomi]

You're probably correct. I haven't checked the correct meanings either, but what you said pretty much makes sense.

 

I don't think you're criticizing the game too much, if at all. A nicer word would be analyzing its content. Besides, we wouldn't be having this interesting conversation if we didn't ponder the things that don't make sense.

[Charie]

I'm just wondering as to what exactly we should take as canon: the irrelevance of money in pursuit of a better travel package or the tickets freely on sell. It would be nice to choose a one relatively acceptable option, but the more I think about it, the more clearly I see a dead end here. Dead end. That's symbolical.

 

VampireNaomi

Aren't plot hole and plot mistake basically the same thing?

Depends on your point of view . Just as El Virus explained above, these two concepts differ one from another basically in level of significance. A plot hole is something that the author had overlooked or forgot to mention, but not really crucial to the main idea of the story; something one can ignore without much fretting over it. And a plot mistake is a drastic inconsistency in the important part of the story, a paradox impossible to explain and hard to cast aside.

At least I think so; maybe, in English it is all the same.

 

El Virus

the fact that Celso (on foot) arrived to Rubacava before Manny (who was on a car) did, Celso's wife (who died later) arrived even earlier, and Meche only got there after one year (I think there is more than one far-fetched solution to this).

What are the 'far-fetched solutions' you are talking about?

 

My opinion concerning this has always been that it has something to do with the 'four-year journey of the soul' plot... er, hole/mistake, whatever .

It would all make much more sense if the first year in El Marrow would have been split, one way or another, in two, somewhere between Bruno's and Mercedes' arrivals in the LotD. I have a bad feeling that this topic had already been discussed through and through in the past. If it is as I suspect, I apologize. See, from the game's start to the end there had passed only three years, yet at the Portal to the 9th Underworld Bruno complaines about having 'nothing to read but this damn mug' for four years. Plus, providing a perfect answer to the comment above, Celso's adventure in the forest and his wife's death and haste trip would have had a whole year to work out.

 

I've no idea, however, how this split could be done, but I think it's possible. Or I may fail to see something significant, since I have never replayed the game.

[Shuz]

Concerning the sainthood and money issue. I always understood it in that your good behaviour in life is worth so many "morale points" and that money could be used to buy extra "morale points" on top of your base-line amount, allowing you to receive a better travel package. So Meche was so good in life that she did not need to pay anything extra to qualify for a NN ticket.

 

Regarding the "dead rich saint" comment, I think this is just an example of Manny's deadpan humour. The joke is that his situation is so dire that only a saint with lots of money could give him the boost he needs. He was just exaggerating for comic effect.

[Charie]

Horray! Seems I've been mistaken about one thing and right about the other: it's not bad at all to understand most of GF-talk figuratively, and it is possible to find a logical explanation to the apparent paradox.

 

'Morale points'. Sounds like a strategy-games' term, huh? We've all here assumed for some reason that a soul can buy a whole travel package, not it's qualification, so to speak. I imagine these 'morale points' must be pretty expensive, though, so that even the very rich sinners couldn't buy advantageous tickets (or, maybe, if you are deemed to work off you loose the chance to buy those 'points' completely...); and then - Justice triumphs.

 

Yeah, honestly, the qualification-on-sell idea appeals to me. Reasonable enough, and right now appears as a sort of epiphany .

[El Virus]

What are the 'far-fetched solutions' you are talking about?

 

My opinion concerning this has always been that it has something to do with the 'four-year journey of the soul' plot... er, hole/mistake, whatever .

[...]

Plus, providing a perfect answer to the comment above, Celso's adventure in the forest and his wife's death and haste trip would have had a whole year to work out.

 

I've no idea, however, how this split could be done, but I think it's possible. Or I may fail to see something significant, since I have never replayed the game.

 

Well, one of the solutions is the same than the one you provided.

I always thought (not to spoil the fun in the game, that was for) that between picking Celso and Bruno up some time goes by; as well as between Bruno and Meche. There is no evidence that points the other way, so I figure they had to cut some content or either eliminate it from the game.

Also, Celso had a walking stick and a direction; Meche had nothing, so she might have got lost.

I never considered this hole to be serious; it can be avoided with a bit of imagination, or by just obviating it.

 

"morale points"

 

Karma?

 

It does sound possible but I have heard the word money exclusively, in the game.

 

Regarding the "dead rich saint" comment, I think this is just an example of Manny's deadpan humour. The joke is that his situation is so dire that only a saint with lots of money could give him the boost he needs. He was just exaggerating for comic effect.

 

Now that you mention it...I think you are right there, I completely disregarded that.

[Charie]

El Virus

There is no evidence that points the other way, so I figure they had to cut some content or either eliminate it from the game.

You think the gap in the course of the first year was indended, but got cut out in the process? The dialogues were still all consecutive there, weren't they?

 

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.

[El Virus]

El Virus

 

You think the gap in the course of the first year was indended, but got cut out in the process? The dialogues were still all consecutive there, weren't they?

 

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.

 

No, I like to think that they had it planned when they thought the story, but when they begun to develop the game, just left it out and modified the dialogues for them to make sense . It's a plot hole.

 

Though I have never been really disturbed by this inconsistency either. DOD is my favourite location all the same.

 

Really?, I thought you were more of a "Train Station/Aztec Pyramid" person.

[Yohein]

I think the money they use to pay for the travel packages is just the material "manifestation" of the good things they did in life. The better they were in life, the more money they have when they arrived to the land of the dead. The only thing that disturbs me is that comment Manny makes: "You can pick up that money you were buried with, and buy a better travel package from us"... maybe is a methaphoric way to say they recieve the money when the die, depending on the life they had

[Charie]

El Virus

No, I like to think that they had it planned when they thought the story, but when they begun to develop the game, just left it out and modified the dialogues for them to make sense

Oops, bad phrasing. I meant the 'gap' in that reply of mine as a 'certain interval of time'. So, your answer is 'yes'. I think that's a great theory (mainly because I doubt I'd come up with that myself). Not that I agree or disagree, for that's entirely possible, but unconfirmed.

 

I thought you were more of a "Train Station/Aztec Pyramid" person.

0.0 Where did you get that idea from??

For you're right, at least partially. What I love most is the Mayan style in GF, which begins and ends the story. They, in a way, go together, in my view. The DOD location, however, is much more colourful and varied than the Portal, so if pressed to choose one I'd say DOD.

 

What's yours favourite?

 

Yohein

That's stretched. Do you mean that seriously?

'Morale points' sound much more real, since 'the powers that be' of the LotD would still have to know somehow whether the person is good or not. Those 'records' of the souls in the DOD have to come from somewhere, and they apparently include some representation of a soul's virtues and sins.

[Yohein]

I know. The problem is the game sometimes talks about "having a good life" and sometimes about "having money". And, apparently, it makes no difference, so I thought both things are related. Of course, the phrase Manny says at the beggining doesn't make much sense with this.

[Yohein]

By the way, there's another thing that makes me think that "buried money" is not that real: what about the gazpacho poissining at the beggining? you go to pick up souls at the restaurant, where they buried or not? Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing

[El Virus]

0.0 Where did you get that idea from??

For you're right, at least partially. What I love most is the Mayan style in GF, which begins and ends the story. They, in a way, go together, in my view. The DOD location, however, is much more colourful and varied than the Portal, so if pressed to choose one I'd say DOD.

 

I was just taking a guess .

 

The ambientation of this game is, in my opinion, what makes it so special. Instead of using the typicall science fiction or fantasy setting, they chose to use one made up by many different myths (Mayan culture; the edge of the world, etc.). By doing this, they were able to create a very unviable world, which momentarily suspends reality for the player who considers it to be completely normal.

Besides, there are many things taken from my favourite decades.

 

What's yours favourite?

 

My favourite? years 3 and 4 are excellent. The sordid & isolated environments like the edge of the world or the whole train station, added to the melancholy of El Marrow and Rubacava's almost extreme downfall, are incomparable.

 

 

By the way, there's another thing that makes me think that "buried money" is not that real: what about the gazpacho poissining at the beggining? you go to pick up souls at the restaurant, where they buried or not? Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing.

 

I've always wondered how they got their clothes as soon as they got to the LotD.

[Charie]

Yohein

Maybe they were buried (with money) but the souls are picked up at the original place where they died. It's a bit confusing

Oh I see dozens of coffins filled with money up to the lid.

I agree that souls are picked up where their bodies had died.

 

El Virus

By doing this, they were able to create a very unviable world

What do you mean, 'unviable'?

-----------------------------------

Your favourite decades are 40's-60's?

 

The sordid & isolated environments like the edge of the world or the whole train station, added to the melancholy of El Marrow and Rubacava's almost extreme downfall, are incomparable.

To my mind, the one fault of the Portal is coldness. I'm freezing under two thick blankets here, and you expect me to like that North Pole. Plus, if I need melancholy, I can get more than enough of it looking out of my window. White ground, the same colour of the sky, dull grey pavement. As senor Martinez said, 'Ah, phooey!'

 

I've always wondered how they got their clothes as soon as they got to the LotD.

So have I. Meche didn't seem to have clothes wrapped in that brown paper. I don't remember Bruno's appearance as a soul, though.

[VampireNaomi]

So have I. Meche didn't seem to have clothes wrapped in that brown paper. I don't remember Bruno's appearance as a soul, though.

 

I don't think Bruno had them either, but since he's already clothed when he comes out of the car he must have picked them up on the way. The question is, where.

[Yohein]

Oh I see dozens of coffins filled with money up to the lid.

 

That's what Manny says at the beggining of the game, and the manual says that too: the game is based in a mayan culture where corpses are buried with money to help them in the other life. I think they tried to show this in the game using that phrase Manny says, but seeing the rest of the game... well, doesn't fit too well.

 

By the way, the noun you see in Domino's car where you go to the poisoning has clothes too Probably they have a set of clothes in the car for each case

 

Well, the final question is: are they really buried with money to buy the travel packages or it depends on the good they were in life? maybe they depend on both things, as someone said before, but I don't think the original idea was depending on how good you were in life AND how much money do you have. Just look nouns, as Domino and Manny say, they are like "Double N guaranteed customers", and I don't think they necessarily have a lot of money... that's why I said the money they have depends on the life they had.

[Charie]

Yohein

the manual says that too: the game is based in a mayan culture where corpses are buried with money to help them in the other life. I think they tried to show this in the game using that phrase Manny says, but seeing the rest of the game... well, doesn't fit too well.

Yes, this was mentioned somewhere earlier - that 'buried with money' might be just a reference to the ancient tradition.

 

Probably they have a set of clothes in the car for each case

Sounds ridiculous)). Or maybe souls come with their clothes 'in the same package', just not wearing them.

 

========================

Further reganding the money issue.

In Rubacava Celso (again that blasted Celso) told Manny that his wife had all his money. I assumed it was her inheritance after husband's death. Then, Celso wouldn't have had any money at his arrival in the LotD, as well. Yet, Manny sais (that guy always sais something contradictory) that he sells walking-sticks. How is that possible?

 

Seems there's no escape from the money matter even in the LotD.

[Yohein]

Bruno has nothing on the package were Manny picks him up. So the only possibility is that the reapers have the clothes in the car, even if it sounds ridiculous to you But, in a world where the DOD cars are parked in hangers or people is made only from bones and drink and eat just like that, I think havin some clothes in the trunk is not THAT ridiculous

[Charie]

Oh, if so, then clothes in the trunk aren't ridiculouser than everything else, indeed.

[Yohein]

By the way, that thing you said about Celso's wife having his money... that's another strange line in the game. Maybe he's saying his wife didn't buried the money with him and that's the raison why he couldn't get a good travel package... but that doesn't make much sense. Uff, this is too much... Maybe someone should write to Tim Schafer and ask this details

Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.

[VampireNaomi]

Who knows, maybe the creators didn't want us to have a very complete vision of the land of the dead (in fact, we don't see lots of cities in the game), so they could focus in the important facts: story, characters development, humor... etc.

 

Indeed. Most likely these things weren't explained because it would have taken credibility from the game.

 

For example, the game implies that the characters can have sex despite their lack of the needed equipment. If the game actually explained how this is possible it would make the entire thing seem ridiculous and far fetched, so it's better to let it remain a mystery.

[Charie]

Yohein

It is one thing to not explain everything about the story and it's setting (which is great; it leaves room for imagination, and makes the story more real), and another to leave small inconsistencies where matters should be understandable by common logic. Not knowing as opposed to knowing completely contradictory facts. Well, both lead to pondering, for different reasons.

 

VampireNaomi

For example, the game implies that the characters can have sex despite their lack of the needed equipment. If the game actually explained how this is possible it would make the entire thing seem ridiculous and far fetched, so it's better to let it remain a mystery.

Oh yes, this is definitely an IMPORTANT matter. If the game actually explained how this is possible, it would be kinda porno-game, don't y'think? So yeah, better to remain un-enlightened about some facts.

But... well. Mea culpa, madames and monsieurs, mea maxima culpa: this issue had crossed my mind once, as well. I just dismissed it then, settling on a notion that love is much more platonic for the dead.

[Yohein]

I think the problem of the game is that there are lots of humoristic phrases related with the LOTD "system", and when you are playing and you hear the joke you laugh, but later, when you replay or think about the game, you realised that phrase "contradicts" another one. And the manual doesn't help, in fact, when it describes some places, it makes some comments even more confusing...