Vostok's RTS Design Version 3

[Admiral Vostok]

That's right, once again I've updated my design for the next Star Wars RTS. I'm pretty happy with this one, I really feel it will play a lot like how we see the battles in the movies. I said in the IRC room I was getting rid of most of the ripped-off ideas: that's true for the most part, though a couple still remain which I just couldn't do without.

 

Here's a list of some of the changes I've made:

• Unique ways of advancing through Classifications for each faction
  
• Unique ways to heal and repair units
  
• Unique methods of employing Shields and Shield Generators
  
• Unique methods of building construction and special building abilities
  
• A whole lot more uniqueness (I may have gone overboard in making each civ very different)
  
• A cleaned up resource system so it isn't as much of an ordeal to gather resources
  
• Descriptions of the different modes of play involving minor factions
  
• ... and more!
  

 

For the most part the Overview page and the Unit Classes page are pretty much the same. Any difference in them will be picked up through reading the Faction Outlines. So here's a direct link to each of the Factions, including the Minor Factions:

Galactic Empire

Galactic Republic

Rebel Alliance

Separatist Movement

Minor Factions

[DK_Viceroy]

Not bad but I still think the Geonosians should still be in the confederacy, especialy since the Geonosian Nantex Fighter wwas easily better than the Droid Starfighter and i can imagine that unless some radical upgrading has been done i can quite easily imagine that they've become obsolete since it's been at least ten years since they were deployed, especially since we don't know when they were designed they could have been designed 5 years before naboo which would make them increadibly obsolete.

[Darth Windu]

Viceroy - a few points need to be made here.

 

1. The Geonosians are NOT part of the Confederacy. As i have explained before, they are simply arms manufacturers and only fought the Republic because their world was being invaded.

 

2. The 'Nantex' fighter is pure EU and hence irrelevant.

 

3. The Naboo still use the N-1 which is at least 10 years as well, so what's your point? I should also point out that, in the real world, many aircraft go on for decades. Take for example the B-52, the design, althoug improved, is abouit 50 years old but still in front-line service. The F-14, F-15 and F-16 are also a few decades old each - in fact the F-14 first saw service in Vietnam. Therefore, it does not matter how old the Droid Starfighter is, only that it works.

 

 

Vostok - just lookingat your site, might just be me but im having problems accessing the Seperatists, Empire and Minor Civs.

[Admiral Vostok]

My decision to not include the Geonosians are as follows:

 

REALISM REASONS

1. Reworking what Windu has said, while they probably are a part of the Separatists and Confederacy, they would not deploy their military forces in campaigns. If the Separatists were to fight on any other world other than Geonosis, it is unlikely that Geonosians would be deployed. Droids are much better in the minds of the Separatist leaders: cheaper, more efficient, and repairable.

 

2. As Windu also hinted at, they only fought on Geonosis because it was their planet, in the same way that the Naboo fought to defend their planet. This is underlined by the fact there were no actual Geonosian units in the Battle of Geonosis.

 

GAMEPLAY REASONS

3. The Separatists already have pretty much all their bases covered with droid units. Perhaps the only exception would be Geonosian Fighters, which are superior to Droid Starfighters, but the fact remains they still do essentially the same job and with the Droid Starfighter being cheaper and more expendable, they are the logical choice for the money-minded Separatists.

 

4. The Geonosians by themselves have enough units to make an admirable Minor Faction, so that's where I thought they would be better served. So in a way, they are a part of the Confederacy: in the campaigns you'd have access to both the Separatists and the Geonosians when recreating the Battle of Geonosis.

 

 

 

Windu, which links are you using? Use the ones I posted above, as there may be some weirdness with the hyperlinks between the pages within the site that I'll need to fix up.

[DK_Viceroy]

I'll dismiss windu's warbling as Irrelevent after stating one fact. the Nantex Fighter is not EU in case you didn't notice the Fighters that were chasing fater Anakin and Obi Wan's Gunship, those are NANTEX class fighters.

 

Vostok how about we wait and see until episode three If we see Nantex fighters being used by the donfederacy then you'll propably accept that. But i will put one point forward now, A sheilded fighter with larger range and better speed and slightly less manoeuverability piloted by an organic versus a bit cheaper More manoeverable short range un sheilded fighter Droid Fighter. I'd say the Nantex would win out so the seperatists would propably pay out a bit extra for a fighter that has a better chance of coming back in one piece. it's swings and roundabouts whatever way you look at it really.

 

May I also add that we only saw a fraction of the battle. we may see flashbacks or someone talking about the battle in ep 3

[Admiral Vostok]

Well if you won't accept my realism reasons, at least accept my gameplay reasons. At any rate, I think they work better as a Minor Faction. Don't forget you can still have them fight alongside the Confederacy in a game: here's how.

 

Even if we do see Geonosian Fighters in Episode III, I still think they Geonosians are different enough to warrant their own minor civ, and as such the Geonosian Fighter should belong to them and not the Separatists. We may hear someone talking about the Battle of Geonosis, but it's unlikely, and I can 100% guarantee we will not see a flashback. The reason for this is that Lucas has filmed the movies in a very distinct style reminiscent of classic Hollywood, and flashbacks are not a part of that style. You'll never see a flashback or hear a voice-over narration in a Star Wars movie.

 

I've repaired all the links on my site, so it should work now. I've also added in some bits I'd missed.

[DK_Viceroy]

that's actually given me an idea instead of picking a secondary commander you select an ally so as the Confederacy you could pick Generl Grevious and the Geonosians would make for some very interesting gameplay.

[Admiral Vostok]

That's pretty much the idea I posted in the other thread, isn't it?

[DK_Viceroy]

It's hard to remember too many ideas flying around and not enough substance to them or somebody who loves them one day decides to hate them the next, This place makes Westminister seem sane and normal some people here should be politicans since opinions here change as much as politicians do.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well I posted the idea not 3 days ago, I wouldn't think it's that hard to remember. It wasn't under-developed either. Here's the link to refresh your memory:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1618182#post1618182

 

But let's move back to the ideas in my current design, shall we?

[Darth Windu]

Viceroy - ah, so you are unable to disprove what i said, and therefore admit defeat. A good decision i must say.

 

As for the 'Nantex' thingy, if you wanted to use the actualy film designation, they are 'Geonosian Starfighters', not 'Nantex' fighters. Get it right.

 

Having said that, there are a few points as to why the Geonosians, including their fighters, would not fight as part of the Confederacy

 

1. Organic units (not including Clones) are in very limited supply, especially from a single planet. Therefore, one disaster leaves the Confed's without their Geonosians.

 

2. Same goes for the Fighter. It may well be superior, the film doesnt state one way or the other, but there would never be anywhere near enough Geonosian Starfighters to be able to take on the Republic, therefore Droids are used, while the Geonosian Starfighters are used for the Planetary defence of Geonosis.

[Admiral Vostok]

Does anyone have anything to say about my new design or is this one perfect?

[DarthMuffin]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Does anyone have anything to say about my new design or is this one perfect?

 

Here! I have somthing to say!

 

It looks great to me. I only have a small comment on the heroes.

 

For the Jedi/Sith Heroes : I think the Vader power is too powerful, considering what are Luke and Obi's powers. Dooku could be kind of too powerful too, but Vader can really upset the balance. Unless, of course, the penalties are really small.

 

The other types look good.

 

And last but not least : I'm really happy to see that I'm not the only guy who thinks that having more than 4 civs is a stupid idea.

 

Good work

[Admiral Vostok]

Well the penalties will all be balanced, so they may end up being small. Don't forget I also haven't specified how large the radius around Vader is - it could be quite small and as such less powerful than you're thinking.

And last but not least : I'm really happy to see that I'm not the only guy who thinks that having more than 4 civs is a stupid idea.

I don't have more than 4 civs. Minor Factions don't count as they're not balanced like the Major Factions.

[DarthMuffin]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Well the penalties will all be balanced, so they may end up being small. Don't forget I also haven't specified how large the radius around Vader is - it could be quite small and as such less powerful than you're thinking.

I don't have more than 4 civs. Minor Factions don't count as they're not balanced like the Major Factions.

 

For Vader : Forgot about the radius... oops

 

And I wasn't sarcastic I don't care about minor civs, so for me you only have 4 civs.

 

Good job!

[Admiral Vostok]

Originally posted by Darth54

And I wasn't sarcastic I don't care about minor civs, so for me you only have 4 civs.

Right, sorry, I misread your comment. For some reason I thought you were saying more than four civs is good, but I wasn't taking your comment as sarcasm. I just read wrong. Glad you like it!

[FroZticles]

Ok hate to break up this love fest but no template is perfect....

 

Lets go...

 

Empire

 

1-Don't like the slave as there worker, imperials like t have things in control and having rebellious slaves holding there organisation together could be devestating in the end. Not every Imperial like anyways.

 

2-Explain your heroes more is that all Vader can do is promote fear? No saber?

 

3-Blast doors sounds very forced change the name or remove the ability altogether. Can your units enter buildings? If not then whats the point of having them.

 

4- Units seem really thinned. Add more or add something

 

Republic

 

1-Jedi using the force to advance is not very Jedi-like plus Palpy would not would the Jedi to have such ties with the Clone army in the first place. The jedi are not the base for the Republic military. Seems to Greek AoM to me.

 

2-Padme as a republic hero.... No way!!!

 

3-Having moveable buildings could be very overpowering. Especially since the forward command can build any structure and deploy it right at the front line.

 

4- Why is the Assult ship a base? You've based everything on the Battle of Geonosis even though I'm sure they have bases throughout the galaxy once episode 3 starts.

 

Rebels

 

1-This is micro management to the max!!!

 

2- Reduce all those resource carts into one

 

3-Rebels will be the weakest faction in the game. Once a player gets good AA game over. Since you don't include space battles this leaves Rebels with the shortest straw...

 

Confed

 

1- The Battle Droids are Trade Federation property. Except SBD which are the Unions better design

 

 

2-Why can't droid starfighter attack air while in walker mode...

 

3-Returning to orbit should not return resources. It could however be a safe haven and be called back down. But to prevent it being exploited it would have to have a timer before being recalled.

 

Thats all I feel like writing.... I'll find other stuff later....

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - i still find your template lacking. While there are certainly good aspects to it, such as the concept of using the Dropship as the Republic's worker unit, you still have absolutely horrible parts, like tech levels.

 

One thing about the new template i really didnt like was the inclusion of the Republic Assault Ship as a structure. It's a good idea, but it is unrealistic, because it must be really under-powered and minaturised, and it doesnt seem to add anything to gameplay.

[FroZticles]

I agree with Windu about the assult ship, also the lacking of units.

 

I don't agree with him trashing tech levels just because he doesn't include them into his template.

[DK_Viceroy]

Vostok's template isn't that bad for all the flamer lamers to rear their heads, besides he doesn't use tech levels he uses some quasi Minor God system. Personally i think it fits for how his template goes while i disagree about some things in the confederacy the rest on the whole is good.

 

Flamer Lamers Go Home Or Get Attacked By My Droids:bdroid2:

[Admiral Vostok]

Viceroy: No I use Tech Levels, not a quasi-Minor-God system. My Classification system is just a more Star-Warsy name. And Windu, Tech Levels are a necessity for any decent game with powerful late-game units.

 

Froz, thanks for the criticism. Addressing your issues:

Empire

1. You might be right on the slave point. The more I think about it the more it's an EU notion that doesn't really make sense anymore. I shall amend it.

2. Heroes are explained fully in the Unit Classes section.

3. Obviously you haven't seen the movies if you think the notion of Blast Doors is forced.

4. I think there are enough units, but as I also wrote elsewhere in the document the unit list is not complete, as I've only included canon units and units that were obviously needed. I don't think we need hundreds of different units, there are very successful RTS games out there already with a similar number to what I've got.

 

Republic

1. They aren't "using the Force to advance", it represents the will of the Jedi Council, as they are ultimately the leaders of the army. I'm not sure what you mean about Palpatine not allowing the Jedi with the Clones - clearly the Jedi are the commanders of the Clones, hence "General Kenobi". I can see how it might be a little similar to the Greeks, but it is quite different at the same time.

2. Why not? There isn't a better person anyway.

3. Moveable buildings has worked in plenty of other games. Don't worry - they aren't deployed instantly, and in fact for balance they would probably take longer to deploy than for another civ's worker to build a building. Don't forget you can't increase the build speed with multiple workers like you can for the other civs.

4. The scale may be a bit off but so are all RTS game buildings. It makes perfect sense since that's what we see in the movies.

 

Rebels

1. Please explain.

2. I felt the need to build different resource carts would balance the fact that they are mobile.

3. Not true. You are still thinking in terms of SWGB1, where there are dedicated anti-air units. My design doesn't really work the same. Besides, my air-whoring works for the Naboo in SWGB1, so Rebel air whoring would work just as well in this. Also, it is important to note that the Rebels have some of the most flexible troops in the game, so their lack of powerful Mechs won't really be a problem.

 

Separatists

1. Actually every organisation in the Separatists has their own Battle Droids, they aren't unique to the Trade Federation.

2. Because it can't angle it's guns up.

3. I see it being used in kind of a similar way to the Rebel's Evacuate ability. If you're under heavy attack, you escape, and you get some of the resources back rather than lose the whole lot when the building is destroyed. Keeping track of ships in orbit would be too complicated and unnecessary.

[DK_Viceroy]

as much as i like level systems, the C&C series has done fine without them and they have plenty of powerful late game units

[Admiral Vostok]

But the reason it works with the C&C Series is that they've got semi-generic buildings. Since the tech-tree is based on what buildings you've built, everyone is pretty much balanced. When you go into unique buildings like my system, the tech-tree idea doesn't work quite as well so tech levels are needed (such as in WarCraft 3).

[DK_Viceroy]

RA2 wasn't all that Generic Tiberian Sun I will concede as Semi Generic but I'd say RA2 was pretty unique

[Admiral Vostok]

RA2 wasn't unique. They still both had command centers, power buildings, barrack buildings, war factory buildings, etc. They had some unique buildings, it's true, but so does Generals. The Tech Tree is usually not based on these unique buildings, however.