Vostok's RTS Design Version 3

[DK_Viceroy]

When You Played it each side seems unqiue true they had analogues for some things but no matter what you say to me I still say C&C RA2:YR is propably the best game going propably just as good as this infamous starcraft.

 

Someone please dish out a URL for Starcraft i'd like to see what the fuss is about.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by DK_Viceroy

Someone please dish out a URL for Starcraft i'd like to see what the fuss is about.

 

http://www.cdmag.com/articles/023/149/starcraft.html

 

I can't post a link about it, but in Korea, the best StarCraft players are like movie stars.

[Admiral Vostok]

They might have seemed unique but they really weren't. Not in the same way my design's factions are unique. StarCrafts factions were unique in the same way as mine, and so were WarCraft 3's to an extent. As such I guess building uniqueness isn't a justification for tech levels as I said previously, since only the Zerg had a tech-level like system. However I like the tech-level system, there certainly isn't anything wrong with it, so I'm keeping it in my design.

 

For StarCraft you could also check out the official site:

http://www.blizzard.com/starcraft/

[DK_Viceroy]

Though I think the Priority Level system seems more realistic and more star warsy.

 

I think the only Vaguely Generic Units were early infantry and the fact they both needed miner however both are different and unique

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - I bag Tech Levels because i dont like them, which is the reason they arent in my template. They are old, clunky and unnecessary. Rather than using the C&C system, i replaced tech levels with my research, so that it becomes more fluid and realistic. This way, powerful units are still late game, you still have to invest funds to access them, but you dont have instant changes and your buildings/units dont change in terms of art.

[DK_Viceroy]

Windu please put either an excerpt or a link to the part in your Template where it says that, It does have improved Naigation but it's painful to find anything you want in that thing it's still as clunky as you describe Tech levels.

 

I think that if the system were tweaked it could give the idea a whole new lease of life that's why I came u with the Idea of priority levels because it's more realistic and is more streamlined.

[Admiral Vostok]

I know you hate Tech Levels Windu, though I like your RoN rip-off even less. Having multiple levels like that worked for RoN because the game progressed through several different ages. I don't think it will work as well for Star Wars since there don't need to be that many levels. You also say you've addressed the issue of too many levels by allocating resources to research... I really hate that because you don't have to think at all. In fact, most of the ideas I don't like in your template relate to the fact you can switch off your brain and still use them. Maybe it's just me, but I like to actually think in a RTS.

 

Instead of "old, clunky and unnecessary", I see a Tech Level system as proven, straight-forward and necessary.

 

Viceroy, I was under the impression the "Priority System" was similar to the Tech Level system... if not please explain it again.

 

EDIT: I felt I should also point out that one of the advantages of the Tech Level system is that it lends itself well to faction uniqueness. All of my factions advance through Classification (Tech Levels) in different ways. The reason it works well is because the Tech Level system is well-known and widely used, so people can instantly understand it without concerning themselves with the differences between civs. It is also fundamental and straight-forward, so difference between civs are easy to implement without making the concept overly complicated.

 

Also, when it comes down to it, I believe my Classifications system is very Star-Warsy, and to me that is very important.

[DK_Viceroy]

Priority Levels it would fit in under large scale battles with the galaxy being at war. Each sides high command would transmit the designs and advanced research projects each time you increased the priority level due to increased need on the battle filed. It would be done by transmitting VIA an Uplink Center that would require engineers to operate. The cost of upgrading priority levels would be used to upgrade the uplink center to be able to receve the information quickly without it being intercepted by enemis on the battefiled.

 

 

That has been taken directly from my thread that had the war with Pezzy i wonder where he is maybe under a rock somewhere or lying in hospital with a tag tied round his toe

 

anyway though i've been coming up with a few ideas for how you a secondary way to using resources to go up the priority levels that could discourage turtling. With each unit you kill you could decrease the cost of upgrading the antenna array. if you kill enough you could get it for free, you'd propably have to have a huge slog though. Also each side's transmission array would be unique with each having a different ability like the rebels could use thiers to hack into an enemy command center and steal their maps so you could see what the enemy sees for a while this would of course have a recharge, this could also be used on buidlings to see what they are researching or buidling. The confederacies could be upgradded to receive credits from The Banking clan, The Republic could upgrade theirs to have reinforcements of random composition shiiped in every once and a while. and the empire could use theirs to call in an orbital bombardment with a large cool down time perhaps it could be used during a battle or just before a battle to knock out a few units, it would of course decimater any air units since generaly Turbolasers go trhough the Sheilds posessed by starfighters.

 

I've got loads of ideas on how to do it. also since it's done at a transmission array you can still make workers and the like but also it would propably disable the use of any superweapons or abilities should we have them in the game. Also you would need to supply it with increasing amounts of energy to the extent of it needing a power generation facility to itself however the power requirements would diminsh back to normal after you have attained aq higher priority and you could also overcharge the array to boost any abilities you get from it.

 

I'll leave it at that for the moment.

[Admiral Vostok]

So it's basically a Tech Level system that's been tweaked a little?

[DK_Viceroy]

Well more than tweaked since you'd propably need to create Slicers or Technicains to man the array and there'd be a couple of other tweak but i considfer it different because it's not reserached at a command center it has it's own deicated buidling it requires large amounts power and it needs to be manned by increasing numbers of technicians or Slicers.

 

But the essense is similar

 

Though remeber there is the chance to actually fight for a higher priority level where you can get if for free, it might even make a good idea for a mode where you have to fight for a higher priority level it would certainly encourage action filled games. and by game mode i mean like we have kill the commander DM and RM and the likes in that league not the hit switch turn off gish

[Admiral Vostok]

Sounds alright, though a little complex. Not that complexity is necessarily a bad thing; perhaps advancing could become more of a focus this way.

 

I like the fighting-for-advance concept, in fact it's pretty much what the Rebels do in my design to Advance.

 

Here's a summary of the different ways of Advancing in my design for more detailed discussion:

 

Galactic Empire: Traditional Tech Level-style advancement. The Empire has to spend resources to advance to the next Classification just like civs in SWGB do. However the Empire can also chose to put additional resources in; while the Advance is being researched (ie they have selected the button to Advance), another button appears. Every time this second button is clicked, 100 Credits are spent to speed the Advancing process.

 

Galactic Republic: The Republic essentially has a fourth resource: The Force. The more Jedi Temples and Jedi the Republic has, the more the Force is with them, and they "spend" the Force to Advance. Note this doesn't, as Froz thought, mean they "use the Force" to advance; what it means is that the more the Force is strong with a particular base, the more the Jedi Council will be inclined to advance the base to the next Classification.

 

Rebel Alliance: A Rebel base's advancing relies on "Support". Support is not really another resource like The Force is for the Republic, but it needs to be accumulated to a certain level before the Advance can be researched. Once the base has recieved enough Support, the button to Advance becomes available, and the advance costs resources as normal. Support can be accumulated mostly through fighting; the more fighting the Rebels do, the faster their Support grows. This makes them suited to quick hit-and-fade strikes to keep their economy going, which is exactly what the Rebels should be like. Important buildings and Heroes also increase Support, and the more area uncovered from scouting will increase all trickles of Support.

 

Separatists: The Separatists don't use the Classification system like the other factions, instead their bases grow depending on the number of Separatist Organisations that have an interest in the base's success. The Corporate Alliance, Commerce Guild and Trade Federation all need to be persuaded to join the base. Instead of each organisation being an equivalent to a Classification, the organisations can be persuaded to join in any order. For example, if you wanted access to some of the Trade Federation units, you'd persuade them first. However, some units and technologies require two or sometimes all three organisations to have joined, so that a Separatist player won't be able to get access to the advance techs straight away by persuading the relevant organisation to join first.

 

 

If anyone is confused about how any of these work, let me know and I'll try and explain it better and provide some examples.

[DarthMuffin]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

 

Separatists: The Separatists don't use the Classification system like the other factions, instead their bases grow depending on the number of Separatist Organisations that have an interest in the base's success. The Corporate Alliance, Commerce Guild and Trade Federation all need to be persuaded to join the base. Instead of each organisation being an equivalent to a Classification, the organisations can be persuaded to join in any order. For example, if you wanted access to some of the Trade Federation units, you'd persuade them first. However, some units and technologies require two or sometimes all three organisations to have joined, so that a Separatist player won't be able to get access to the advance techs straight away by persuading the relevant organisation to join first.

 

This is pure gold, IMO. Best idea I've heard since a long time. Fits with the SW theme too.

 

The others are nice too. And having unique advancement for each civ is really great. Balancing would be really difficult, however.

 

I'm not sure about "The Force" concept for the republic though. At least it fits with the rep theme.

[lukeiamyourdad]

The Rebels would also require lots of rushing from the player. If you're not a good rusher...

[Darth Windu]

Viceroy -

Research – divided into 3 categories (Military, Civic, and Economic) with credits invested in each, technology will be automatically researched with new tech’s becoming available gradually, research is faster if more credits are invested Credits invested in way of percentage of funds, with that percentage being added to research every time more credits are added to your total.

 

Military Research gives player access to new units, and increases the speed, armour and firepower of all units. Advanced Options divide Military Research into three sections: Infantry, Mechs and Aircraft with the player able to define investment in each mini-category

 

Civic Research extends player’s borders, and increases the Population Cap in small blocks to a maximum of 600. Advanced Options divide Civic into two sections: Population Cap and Borders, with the player able to define investment in each mini-category

 

Economic Research makes collecting resources fast and more efficient, generating Credit’s faster, this research also defines the number and frequency of neutral cargo ships that visit your spaceport, and hence how many credit’s your spaceport generates. Advanced Options divides Economic into two sections, Advanced Economy and Free Trade. Advanced Economy increases the rate of, and efficiency of, resource collection, while Free Trade attracts more cargo ships to your spaceports

 

 

Vostok - actually your system is more of an RoN rip-off than mine is. As far as i know, my system has never been used in a game. As for thinking, you of course need to think about where your credits are going. Do you want to Rush? Do you want to Boom? To use different strategies, you will need to invest differently. In addition, my template has more advanced game features such as flanking attacks and terrain advantages, so really my template doesnt require any more or less thinking than yours, it simply changes where you will be thinking. For my template, that means you will have to think more about how you are going to fight a battle rather than how you are going to research everything and micro-manage your base.

[DK_Viceroy]

Not bad but i don't like this idea of borders, I think theirs a Star Wars mod for civilisation That you might like windu since I beleive it's civiliastion uses a border system.

[FroZticles]

Vostok I knew it did not mean you use the force to advance, its a forth resource and you make it sound like its an everyday tool. I still do not like it being used as a resource seeing as no military in the movies has tapped into the force and used it for its military advantage

 

Empire

3. Blast doors seem lame, plus they are buildings not hallways that you can block with doors.....

 

Republic

1.Vostok I knew it did not mean you use the force to advance, its a forth resource and you make it sound like its an everyday tool. I still do not like it being used as a resource seeing as no military in the movies has tapped into the force and used it for its military advantage

 

2. She is not a hero by any means what did she actually do for the Republic? Nothing except is a senator in the senate. She is a hero to Naboo yes but definately not the Republic. A replacement could easily be Mace or any other jedi at the order.

 

Confed

1. Then why did u give them to the Union. I think there more unique to the Trade Federation then they are to the Union. PLus the movies don't support your theory on how different droids are divided amongst the factions. The only 2 that Dooku mentioned there Trade Fed and the Union having droids.

 

2.Actually they can if you played Star Wars starfighter they can angle there guns at air from the ground. Which is EU I know but I never saw them placing beacons either....

[DK_Viceroy]

Perhaps Vostok thinks the empire is so inept and inviting to be infiltrated that they have big gaping doors that can be waltzed in and out of no problem if that was true then blast doors would fit. Vostok i know your trying to remove micro but this would seem to put more in that it would take out but it's propably when all said and done has equal micro to AoM though I think priority levels seem to encourage a feel of being a part of a greater thing.

[Admiral Vostok]

3. Blast doors seem lame, plus they are buildings not hallways that you can block with doors.....

You (and obviously Windu since he agrees) are forgetting the Blast Doors at the entrance to the shield bunker on Endor. This is what I was trying to capture.

I still do not like it being used as a resource seeing as no military in the movies has tapped into the force and used it for its military advantage

Except the Republic, which is why it is unique to them.

She is not a hero by any means what did she actually do for the Republic?

She is as much a hero as all of the other Political Heroes (Leia, Gunray and Tarkin). Besides, I felt that all the main characters needed a presence.

Then why did u give them to the Union.

I didn't "give them" to the Techno Union. The Techno Union just builds them, which is true to the movies. The Techno Union builds the Droidekas too.

Actually they can if you played Star Wars starfighter they can angle there guns at air from the ground. Which is EU I know but I never saw them placing beacons either....

Well apart from it not making much sense, the Separatists already have plenty of other AA units, they don't need any more. Also, if the Droid Starfighter can shoot air while in Walker mode, people will tend to keep them in Walker mode instead of turning them into Fighter mode, which isn't how they should be used.

 

Windu: please explain how my system is similar to RoN in any way. Yours has the four different areas of research and everything. The only thing that's different between yours and RoNs is the ability for you to allocate resources to it so it's done automatically.

Vostok i know your trying to remove micro

How am I trying to remove micro? It's you that's removing micro with your automatic advancing system and magical naval transports.

[DK_Viceroy]

Those are windu's hair brained ideas do not quote me in relation to his somewhat questionable but should i even call the ideas? since a lot seem to be lifted from other games.

[FroZticles]

Making Republic plaers build Jedi is also not a good idea, the clones are successful on there own, seeing as there are only a handful of Jedi left since the Battle of Geonosis I don't see how the clone army should even need the Jedi.

 

Well theres no movie proof that they build the Battle droids. I could say that those droids were the Geonosians because they were being built on there planet.

 

Not making sense??? Do I need to explain it again? Obviously they do seeing as how the Gunships dominated them at Battle of geo.

 

Also you did not give your reasons why Padme is a Republic "hero".

[DK_Viceroy]

Actually the Geonosians made the droids for the varius confederacy powers so they technically already belonged to the federation and such because they propably already paid for them.

 

also i see the fact that the Droid Starfighter wasn't seen in ep 2 as good proof that they've either been outlawed by the senate or phased out in favour of something else, propably the Geonosian Nantex Fighter.

[FroZticles]

Well the movie was a little dry on the details of who owned what droids so I guess we will never know unless they reveal it in Episode 3, which is unlikely.

 

Yeah the Senate outlawing them that will stop them

I did not see any fighters except as Dooku escorts, maybe they were on the Trade Federation battleships?

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - obviously you havent even read my template regarding research. There are 3, as opposed to RoN's 5, which can go to 8 if you use 'advanced options' which allows you to micro-manage the research more. Yours, however, still relies on the 'click to research' system which is used in RoN, AoE, AoK etc.

 

Viceroy - as the Droid Starfighter, if you look at the databank entry for the Geonosian Starfighter, you will see that the Droid Starfighter was going to be the main air defence of the Confederacy, but they decided to make some new Geonosian fighters to escort Dooku. The Droid starfighters probably went the same way as the 'Assault Ship attacks Geonosian Airbase' scene.

[Admiral Vostok]

Windu: the "click to research" system as you call it is not just used by RoN, AoE, and AoK, but in fact by every single RTS ever made. I would like to think that says something to you.

 

Froz: I did address why Padme should be a hero, but I screwed up the quoting above, so I'll re-post it here:

She is not a hero by any means what did she actually do for the Republic?

She is as much a hero as all of the other Political Heroes (Leia, Gunray and Tarkin). Besides, I felt that all the main characters needed a presence.

 

Addressing everyone's other issues:

Well theres no movie proof that they build the Battle droids.

Yes there is. There is the line from the Techno Union guy: "With these new Battle Droids we built for you, you'll have the finest army in the galaxy." There you have it, proof that the Techno Union is in charge of building Battle Droids.

also i see the fact that the Droid Starfighter wasn't seen in ep 2 as good proof that they've either been outlawed by the senate or phased out in favour of something else, propably the Geonosian Nantex Fighter.

Hardly, since we didn't see any space battles in Episode II, and in fact we only saw a total of three fighters (Obi-Wan's Jedi Starfighter and the two Geonosian Fighters that accompany Dooku). As Windu said, they were actually planning to show a space battle as well, though scrapped it because it wasn't necessary, but this battle was going to feature the Droid Starfighters rather than the Geonosians Fighters.

[DK_Viceroy]

Your Purism Betrays you, since by your own rules the Geonosian Starfighter takes precedence over the possibility of the continued use of the Droid Starfighter.

 

The Geonosian Starfighter should be in the separatists.

 

That applies to the pair of your templates no matter how many times you blown your horns ring your bells and argue to your blue in the faces they should be in because the pair of you have the TIE Bomber, and that's only in ep 5

 

The Geonosian Fighter is better than the droid starfighter and you can't bring in those hell ridden laws of yours vostok even if you did i would not listen since their a load of tripe anyway. both units are cannon yes. perhaps the Droid Starfioghter could be the one you get first and later on you would get the Geonosian Fighter since it is superior, It should be in because to use purist reasons every film unit should be in.

 

To heck with minor factions it would be nice to have them in but i know practically no if any RTS's that inclde them it takes dveelopment time and money away from the other civs and more often than not steals units away from the other factions and the mian factions are more important and have priority.